Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: fscott on March 14, 2001, 01:03:00 PM
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I haven't had too many chances to turn fight the Ta152 down low, but the few times I have it seems that it was not too great a turner.
Max weight = 12100 lbs
Wing area = 252 square feet
Wing loading max = 47 lbs/sqft
Empty weight = 7900 lbs
Wing loading = 31 lbs/sqft
So it has a wing loading between 31 and 47 lbs/sqft. It seems that this is a relatively low wing loading especially when it's low on fuel. Anyone have good experiences turning this bird against another good pilot who actually knew what he was doing?
fscott
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152 should not be perked the way it is now, slow climb rate, average acceleration great dive speed and level speed. As far as turning I got my first crack at flying one just 3 days into my AH experience. Lesson learned it doesn't turn that good. Was out turned by a 109 G-10. 152 should be rather close to the Tempest going to pilot experience being the difference. Willie Reschke dispatched 2 Tempests down low in a 152. D-9 perked 152 not perked or either drop the value.
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There is where pilot skill comes into the equation.
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One thing that is for sure, is that its missing 250rpm and 15-22mph from speed, between 29-41k.
So as it is currently, its missing alot.
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Mind you he also had 4k alt on me, and I had no E. Simple case of leaving the keyboard to go outside to have a smoke coming back and finding enemy con 6k away.
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Ahhh,
But why is it not turning well at low alt. and low speed??
Before you gents think I am going to bash the 152 let me tell you I agree with you. It should turn well, but the 109G10 will beat you in the virtical on the deck every time as will the NIK2, Tempest and LA7.
There are three things working for the TA-152 to give it good sustained turning ability.
1. Relatively low wing loading when near empty fuel. On par with most other late war fighters when at about 25% load.
2. Good, not great climber at Combat power. Ability to climb is roughly the same as acceleration. And that translates into being able to pull the nose around quickly at a near stall turn. Better known as sustained turn rate. Almost all A/C have there best sustained turn rate at there best climb speed. Find that speed and time it in 360 degree turn to test it against other birds.
3. High aspect ratio wing. Not good for rolling but very good for low induced drag which mean the ability to maintain a tight turn without bleeding to much E to fast. The P-38 also had this ability but had two large engine nacelles breaking up the wing ruining lift. The Ta-152 did not and should benifit from this.
It also had things three things working against it.
1. Poor wing loading when heavy. Worse than the P-47 not as bad as the P-38. Advice would be to take a drop tank and 50% fuel when taking off. Never go into combat when Low and with more than 50% fuel.
2. Really bad climber at mil power. Bad climber means bad acceleration and bad sustained turn rate. Run out of WEP on the deck and you got problems.
3. Slow getting into a turn because of wide wing span. Slow speed, slow roller. Not good for turn fighting on the deck.
The bottom line is when turn fighting LA7's, Tempest or 109G10's they will use the lag pursuit to kill you unless you can get your nose around very quickly. At least in an A8, D9 or A5 you can roll and sissor to avoid the nme until help arrives. Get a bogie on yer tail in the 152 and you better stay fast because unless the other guy makes a mistake you can't win.
BTW, if anyone wants to test in the TA just shout out. I am always up for that sort of thing.
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the ta-152-h1 had also a modified airfoil, which had a higher Clmax compared to a Dora. Another reason why it should turn better.
niklas
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Turns very good for me, dunno what the rest of you are doing.
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The wingloading is quite poor actually. It should turn better than a Fw 190D-9 or Fw 190A or P-47 but that's about it.
Just because Reschke shot down a Tempest does NOT mean the planes were equal. There is a large amount of engineering data which says otherwise.
Fishu, is this chart not correct?
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/ta152hspeed.gif)
Because in my (admittedly brief) test flights, the 152 is performing per the chart.
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I have had the opportunity to engage 2 Ta 152's. The first was with a La-7 we started at about 10k and I managed to get on his 6 and he dove for the deck when he could not lose me I followed him and at first he pulled away, he extended to about 3.2k then I started to close on him, when he realized I was catching him he decided to fight and as he pulled up to turn I got him in about 45 sec, it was easy in the la-7.
The second encounter was with a Dora 9. I spotted a solitary ta 152 in the middle of nowhere he was a little below me at about 15k I was at 17k I headed right for him and he turned in to me I led him and tagged him in the fuselage and the tail as he passed. he dove away and extended out he was running for home I followed and as he came up to his air field I broke off not wanting to follow him into the ACK, then he discoed...But he did not poses enough of an advantage in speed to lose me I was able to stay with him for 10miles about 3k behind him...
Also the tempest is no turn fighter I would imagine it would be easy to out fight a tempest with a Ta 152, my experience has been that it seams to turn well for a FW.
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d2UI0WPm3EKCGQao7Vbmz7!8nmLzbIouQuC7ssdQWFI6ZzY!jZux2mB9GWIG)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-14-2001).]
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I have 469 mph at 41k here:
(http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/bs/Chart3.jpg)
From the Ta 152 book.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-14-2001).]
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-ok, ok, so I was reading the wrong column. that still doesn't mean you can't be a moron. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-14-2001).]
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hehehehehehehhehehehehehehehe hehehheheh
handsomehunk. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know you aren't that dumb. I really hope yer joking... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-14-2001).]
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Looks like GM1 isn't punching it at the right alt for our H-1, thus were getting the speed of a GM 1-less H-0.
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Yeah the altitudes don't match up. Doesn't somebody have some speed vs. altitude charts for this thing? The HTC chart sure has the look of real data, i.e. it's got a lot of "squigglies", but I wonder what the source is.
I'll do some more checking to make sure the in-game performance matches HTC's own chart, but I think that part is OK. The question is what data they based the chart on.
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It matches up pretty well with this chart. http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/bs/chrt2.jpg (http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/bs/chrt2.jpg) http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/bs/chrt2INFO.jpg (http://pobox2.zyan.com/~nath/bs/chrt2INFO.jpg)
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S!
The one thing that this plane does have is a mean set of guns. The Mk 103 30mm is a one shot kill like the Mk108, but it differs from the lighter weapon by having a much higher velocity, longer barrel and much better accuracy. Combined with the fact it fires through the prop, a pilot with some gunnery skills should be able to do some serious damage. And of course it also has a pair of 20mm in the wing roots, which also don't require too much convergence. This is probably the best Bomber killer out there. Which is what it was designed for. The Germans were expecting the B-29 to be deployed to Europe when they designed this.
Low alt. Turn and Burn is a wrong use of this aircraft.
Of course, with the way the MA works, anything which is not designed for T&B at 5k is operating at a tremendous disadvantage.
A late war scenario with flights of P-51D's trying to protect B-17's flying at the normal altitude of 22,000-25,000 ft from TA-152 interceptors, would see the Allies lose big time.
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Originally posted by funked:
The wingloading is quite poor actually. It should turn better than a Fw 190D-9 or Fw 190A or P-47 but that's about it.
Just because Reschke shot down a Tempest does NOT mean the planes were equal. There is a large amount of engineering data which says otherwise.
Fishu, is this chart not correct?
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/ta152hspeed.gif)
Because in my (admittedly brief) test flights, the 152 is performing per the chart.
Looks like its pretty much that results what I got in my tests..
Comparing to all those sources what I've read and seen by others, Ta-152 lacks 15 to 22mph at high altitudes above 29.5k ft
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Here's a primary source, courtesy of Verm:
http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-1.jpg (http://www.vermin.net/ta152/ta152-1.jpg)
The shape of the curve is pretty similar, but the critical altitudes and some of the speeds are a little different, some higher, some lower.
I wonder what HTC's source is?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-15-2001).]
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About that Ta 152 shooting down 2 tempests... the book uses terms like 'very good' and such to describe the Ta pilot, and the other Ta pilot who was with him spun out his plane trying to turn or something like that.
I think the story is just that: better pilot in worse plane beating a better plane with worse pilot.
// fats
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You can't say that a bird should 'always' win just because you read of a situation where a pilot came out on top. Use the Ta-152 at altitude, guys, where it belongs.
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Voss
13th TAS
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I have seen alot of Ta152 pilots make the big mistake of assuming its fast on the deck like a Dora.
They couldn't be more wrong, and then get trapped low and slow... and die.
An amusing Ta152 arena turnfight story:
A couple of days ago, I was trying to clear a La5fn from a fellow knits 152 on the deck in my La7 when I showed up with about a 5k E advantage. He was trying to out turn the La5FN, going round and round in slow tight circles, and because he didn't drag properly I had too much E coming in on the bounce and could not get a good guns solution on the La5FN. Finally on my third pass, after I had burned off some E, I got the La5Fn, but the Ta152 was already mortally crippled.
He then proceed to squeak at me because I didn't clear him fast enough, and then he squeaked about the FM being all screwed up. According to him the Ta152 should have been able to both out turn the La5fn, and it should have been able to outrun the La5fn on the deck as well.
So I asked him what he normally flew. It was real hard too guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Spitfires.
Moral of the story: Know thy aircraft !!
Oh and learning how to drag properly with a barrel roll defense don't hurt any either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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BuzzBait.
The AH TA152 has a mk108 as its engine mounted gun. As far as I know that is what it should have.
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S! Pongo
You are right. My mistake. It was the TA-152C which had the Mk103 gun.