Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Swager on September 06, 2000, 06:33:00 AM
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Attacked a Panzer with a 109 main loadout of 30mm and gondolas with 20mm. Many hits. No kill! Made about 5 passes.
Landed and grabbed a F4U-C1. Second pass I got the kill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bigger caliber does not necessarily mean more armor penetration.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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30mm isn't likely to kill panzer.
HE ammo and low velocity.. you don't do much with 60mm mortar either against tanks.
though, those F4u Dweeb-C cannons COULD be tuned down against panzers.
It is not uncommon that Dweeb-C gets panzer kill through its front plate from low approach angle.
5 hits through side with Dweeb-C and Panzer kaputt.
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Takes about 6-8 rounds of 75mm HE to kill a panzer...
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But the 75mm HE is traveling at velocities and with kinetic energy that the mk108s cant even compare too. Unless they had developed a small HEAT round for it the 30mm 108 rounds would have been next to useless against armour.
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Even the MK 103 wasn't very good against tanks. MK 108 is like throwing hand grenades at the tank. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by funked:
Even the MK 103 wasn't very good against tanks. MK 108 is like throwing hand grenades at the tank. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What means that it **SHOULD** do some damage...tracks, main gun, AA MG, SOMETHING...
right now to straffe a tank with a Lw plane is like throwing balls with a BB gun... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Originally posted by RAM:
right now to straffe a tank with a Lw plane is like throwing balls with a BB gun... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
...and strafing tank with Hispano series is like using 75mm PAK
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 09-06-2000).]
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Originally posted by Fishu:
30mm isn't likely to kill panzer.
HE ammo and low velocity.. you don't do much with 60mm mortar either against tanks.
though, those F4u Dweeb-C cannons COULD be tuned down against panzers.
It is not uncommon that Dweeb-C gets panzer kill through its front plate from low approach angle.
5 hits through side with Dweeb-C and Panzer kaputt.
I believe Pyro said that on aircraft guns, the full range of capabilites of the ammo types etc were simplified into one 'shell'
Where as the Hispano Mk II has the flat trajectory and KE of a normal AP round, and the explosive power of the HE round.
The MG 151 and MK 108 used almost exclusively HE rounds so they have the lower velocity, trajectory, and KE total.
The Panzer IVH's is exclusive in it actually splits the capabilities into two shells to lower the massive destructive power of combining something like AP and HE (and the rounds fire much much slower etc)
In aircraft however, hits are much more likely to land several rounds, so the 'combined' round simulates rounds of different types hitting relatively the same surface.
I am trying to find a ballistic chart of the Mk II Hispano's AP, HE, and Tracer rounds...I imagine the HE's trajectory would actually be alot like the MG 151. (long range but still a signifigant drop) Anyway I think perhaps that combination of KE from ammo types is why Panzers die so easy.
If I got it wrong Pyro, don't hesitate to shat me up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have an old Mk 4 casing, with a Mk 7 explosive head, and a Mk 26 fuse which I think is a Hispano round but don't quote me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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As a proud member of LuftWoffles I hate to grab a plane which is made in U.S of A, historically used in pacific, to kill a tank which is made in Germany...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Staga,
Then grab something that was made in the U.K. and WAS used to kill tanks that were made in Germany. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Jigster:
I believe Pyro said that on aircraft guns, the full range of capabilites of the ammo types etc were simplified into one 'shell'
Where as the Hispano Mk II has the flat trajectory and KE of a normal AP round, and the explosive power of the HE round.
The MG 151 and MK 108 used almost exclusively HE rounds so they have the lower velocity, trajectory, and KE total.
The Panzer IVH's is exclusive in it actually splits the capabilities into two shells to lower the massive destructive power of combining something like AP and HE (and the rounds fire much much slower etc)
In aircraft however, hits are much more likely to land several rounds, so the 'combined' round simulates rounds of different types hitting relatively the same surface.
I am trying to find a ballistic chart of the Mk II Hispano's AP, HE, and Tracer rounds...I imagine the HE's trajectory would actually be alot like the MG 151. (long range but still a signifigant drop) Anyway I think perhaps that combination of KE from ammo types is why Panzers die so easy.
If I got it wrong Pyro, don't hesitate to shat me up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I have an old Mk 4 casing, with a Mk 7 explosive head, and a Mk 26 fuse which I think is a Hispano round but don't quote me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pffftttt.... it is 20mm for god sake, it does not have penetration power from 500 yards to cut through front armour of PZ-IV (and believe me, I've done this few times already, it is not occasionally happening), or otherwise you could have put up .50 caliber MG in the forrest and wait for PZ-IV to drive pass and blow them up like halftracks.
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better be nice when you ask that it really gets um goin .. the sillyness of the hog is most aperent when it wins a ho with a main battle tank.
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Originally posted by Fishu:
Pffftttt.... it is 20mm for god sake, it does not have penetration power from 500 yards to cut through front armour of PZ-IV (and believe me, I've done this few times already, it is not occasionally happening), or otherwise you could have put up .50 caliber MG in the forrest and wait for PZ-IV to drive pass and blow them up like halftracks.
Thats what I was trying to explain (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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The top of a panzer IV has 15mm of armour. that includes the top of the drivers and radio operators compartment. Are you sure some of that burst didnt hit there? of course your not. You know that the Hispano does not penatrate the glacis plate of a Panzer IV but I guess its fun to make silly statments. I have atacked alot of panzers with hispano and vis versa. It is not an easy kill even from the top any more. It is not super difficult but you have to put some serios rounds into a panzer to kill. Last night I had a 1c driving right down my throat at 10ft blazing away He lost that HO to a single 7.92mm.
Fishu in the MA this does not seem to be a problem. I dont know where you are flying.
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...Last night I had a 1c driving right down my throat at 10ft blazing away He lost that HO to a single 7.92mm...
This is the only thing that frosts me in MA, buff and aa (tank,M3) are just too overmodeled. Hopefully HT/Pyro will eventually tone em down a bit.
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FYI, both the 20mm (but not the MG FF) and 30mm rounds the LW used weren't plain HE, but APHE (armour-piercing hi-explosive). They also had a variety of other warheads.
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Originally posted by Jigster:
I believe Pyro said that on aircraft guns, the full range of capabilites of the ammo types etc were simplified into one 'shell'
Where as the Hispano Mk II has the flat trajectory and KE of a normal AP round, and the explosive power of the HE round.
The MG 151 and MK 108 used almost exclusively HE rounds so they have the lower velocity, trajectory, and KE total.
In aircraft however, hits are much more likely to land several rounds, so the 'combined' round simulates rounds of different types hitting relatively the same surface.
If I got it wrong Pyro, don't hesitate to shat me up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But if you got it right, then it is time to move on. Come on, HTC.
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I understand that it would be difficult to model different round types in a single belt of ammo. But maybe we could model some different round types and let the user select a single type in his belt?
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I think it should be an option in the loadout screen, if only for one type of ammo.
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FYI, both the 20mm (but not the MG FF) and 30mm rounds the LW used weren't plain HE, but APHE (armour-piercing hi-explosive). They also had a variety of other warheads.
imagine the anti Lw whine !!! if the 190 get something more poverful like yankie :-))))))))))))0
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Originally posted by Jerry B:
FYI, both the 20mm (but not the MG FF) and 30mm rounds the LW used weren't plain HE, but APHE (armour-piercing hi-explosive). They also had a variety of other warheads.
I'd like to see one of those MK 108 AP/HE rounds.
The 30mm is almost big enough for an APC round but would need at least double the speed to do any good.
I'm trying to find accounts of the LW using any type of AP round with regularity, and I seriously doubt there was anything like a AP/HE that was anywhere near effective. If ya find some lemme know.
- Jig
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Expecting the MK 108 to be an anti-armor round is ludicrous. Even the MK 103, with much higher muzzle velocity and a better AP projectile, was abandoned as an anti-tank weapon.
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20mm had some jig- but not very common at all. was only a solid core bullet in the cannon too- was mostly for against bomber engienes and better penetration of planes. more common from what i read was to put AP rounds in the MG as these were available more and were more effective especially at close range due to a higher muzzle velocity.
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
20mm had some jig- but not very common at all. was only a solid core bullet in the cannon too- was mostly for against bomber engienes and better penetration of planes. more common from what i read was to put AP rounds in the MG as these were available more and were more effective especially at close range due to a higher muzzle velocity.
MG 131's nearly always carried a 2/1 ratio of AP (sub core steel) and either an either ICN or HE, but againt the 131 is a lower velocity round with poor ballstics and that AP never did much (it's perfect as it's modeled in AH pretty much)
I was looking around for MG 151 AP sub core steel rounds, they were virtually none exiestant after late 1943 (prolly cause of the allied bombing campaigns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) I've seen no accounts of AP/HE rounds anywhere for any Luftwaffe aircraft cannon...at least not in the term AP as in tank busting.
I guess you could call the normal HE rounds of the MG 151 AP/HE vs a airplane, because even at longer ranges it's prolly going to go through and then explode (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
A few HE around the engine nacelle of a bomber would do alot better then a few sub core AP's...the HE will most likely rupture fuel lines ultimately ending in a fire that will destory the plane or immedately take it out of action, where as with AP engine will either lose cyclinders or be knocked out.
Not quite as effective I guess, prolly why the LW stuck with HE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
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Jig -
Believe me, the LW did use a form of APHE cannon rounds, although they didn't call them that. Various munition types were developed to be primarily used against bombers. Sometimes plain vanilla HE rounds would detonate against the skins of enemy aircaft and not do very much damage. This was mostly becuase of angles of penetration. Armour-piercing rounds which were also explosive had a much better chance of penetrating and doing damage either to the target's surface on impact or to the crew and components if it penetrated well.
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I can't see why it would be so difficult to model a lot of different ammo types.
If any of you tried WB free host when it was active, different ammo types were modelled and selectable in different ratios. Maybe not correctly but it was there.
Also just read about Finnish Blenheimm gunners...most had their own 'recipe' of ammo. And that was for 7,9mm MG. One was like smoketracer-armorpiercing-glow-incendiary-smoketracer-etc. Would be really fun to adjust ammo for your own style of flying.
Ammo type modelling is just one of those little (or big) things that could keep AH on top.
janjan, JG53
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Originally posted by janjan:
Also just read about Finnish Blenheimm gunners...most had their own 'recipe' of ammo. And that was for 7,9mm MG. One was like smoketracer-armorpiercing-glow-incendiary-smoketracer-etc. Would be really fun to adjust ammo for your own style of flying.
But only few fighters were killed by Blenheims (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I don't remember that one Blenheim gunner aces name, but he did aim along the barrel instead of gunsight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
..and ahh, would I love to choose my ammunition types, instead of having pre-set or just same ammo type.
[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 09-15-2000).]