Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ardy123 on October 27, 2009, 01:35:08 PM
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Often, when a con is on my six I try to break into some sort of scissors to force an overshoot. I have noticed that...
(NOTE: This is all done using a 109G14)
1) If I cut my throttle and go into a flat scissors (esp when above 250mph), the con usually overshoots but I have blown all my e. Also, I'm usually forced into a situation where the now mismatched e state leaves me in a position where Im constantly on the defense as the attacker just yo-yos and bnzs me until I screw up.
2) If I go up and roll over or go to the left, then go up and roll over, the attacker is able to follow me in the ACM and maintains on my 6. Needless to say, I die or resort back to option 1.
3) Sometimes, if there is a huge e discrepancy and I feel like doing something risky, at 400 out, I'll pull throttle off, slam right rudder and pull back and to the left on the stick, then I'll slip and barrel roll and wind up nicely on the attackers six, but again with less e than him.
Now, I have seen people do option 2 and just basic barrel rolls as a defensive maneuver but I am unable to make it work for me, what are the tricks, How can I evade an attacker with out loosing most of my 'e'?
Thanks
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Something Junky showed me...
Start scissoring a little, but retain some E. When your opponent is close enough, on the last scissor, instead of doing a flat reversal, roll 45 degrees and barrel roll. Place your lift vector BEHIND your opponent - this is NOT the time to use lead pursuit. Ironically, when somebody mentioned Flyboys the movie on this forum, I watched it. Terrible movie, but I recognized the use of this exact barrel roll reversal, I wonder if Junky learned it from there :lol :lol.
Anyways, the point is, separation is important in a barrel roll.
Also, the E disadvantage you speak of - being in a 109, you should be able to make up the discrepancy unless your opponent is in another uber-accelerating plane like the 109 or Spit.
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Often, when a con is on my six I try to break into some sort of scissors to force an overshoot. I have noticed that...
(NOTE: This is all done using a 109G14)
1) If I cut my throttle and go into a flat scissors (esp when above 250mph), the con usually overshoots but I have blown all my e. Also, I'm usually forced into a situation where the now mismatched e state leaves me in a position where Im constantly on the defense as the attacker just yo-yos and bnzs me until I screw up.
2) If I go up and roll over or go to the left, then go up and roll over, the attacker is able to follow me in the ACM and maintains on my 6. Needless to say, I die or resort back to option 1.
3) Sometimes, if there is a huge e discrepancy and I feel like doing something risky, at 400 out, I'll pull throttle off, slam right rudder and pull back and to the left on the stick, then I'll slip and barrel roll and wind up nicely on the attackers six, but again with less e than him.
Now, I have seen people do option 2 and just basic barrel rolls as a defensive maneuver but I am unable to make it work for me, what are the tricks, How can I evade an attacker with out loosing most of my 'e'?
Thanks
If you use option #2, it's pretty easy for your opponent to just follow you through and shoot you. An easy trick to stop this from happening is to initiate the BRD with a turn to one side first. I prefer to start with a fairly sharp, but not blacked-out turn to the right, with my nose down about 15 degrees, so I can keep my speed. The object here is to get the opponent approaching somewhat from the side, not from directly behind you.
So, broken-down, my BRD defense goes like this-
With opponent approaching from behind, about 1.2-1.5 back (if he's closer I'm probably going to do something a bit different), begin a fairly hard, nose down turn to the right. This will be a 90-100 degree turn. As opponent cuts inside my turn, he'll be approaching from about my 4:30. I then roll wings-level, and allow him to close.
As the icon counter clicks through D800, and is almost going to click at D600, I pull up about 15 degrees nose high, just at the instant I think he'll open fire. This makes him miss, and he'll be preparing to cross behind me, from my right to my left.
About 1/2 to 1 second after I go nose up, I start my roll to the left. Done with the proper timing we'll be approximately canopy to canopy, with me inverted as I do my roll. Since he's flying the straighter path, I'll come through my roll behind him.
Here's the kicker though- I don't want to get slow to create the overshoot. I'm creating it by causing him to approach from the side, and by flying the longer path. In effect, you're tempting him to fly the straighter, more predictable path by presenting him with what he thinks will be a shot (your initial turn, followed by level flight) which you then dodge of course as you go nose-up for the barrel roll.
The beauty of this is that after your BRD is finished, you won't be that much slower than you were. Ready to do it again, or ready to capitalize if he turns to sharply as he passes by...
I'll see if I can find a film quick.
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Here are two films.
Like any other maneuver, you'll need to tailor it to each situation. Speeds, angles, etc will need to be adjusted depending on the circumstance. You'll see some of that here.
These aren't all necessarily "textbook" BRD, but you'll get the idea I think. I set it up over and over in these two clips, and alter it a bit here and there, or abort it if things don't look right. It's also very important to closely watch your opponent, so if he "fakes" the attach, but then stays out, you don't complete the maneuver pointlessly (and blow a little E in the process).
In a situation like these, where I can't catch my opponent, I keep pointing away, so I can increase horizontal separation between his passes. Notice that after the maneuver, I don't follow him (or you) too far, but rather change heading to get him to latch onto my six again. This is a way for me to burn his E advantage (he wastes it chasing me).
I also take advantage of "blind spots" when possible to change heading from where he last saw me. I do this when his vision of me is blocked by his wings, etc (you see an example of it near the end of the 190 film). The idea here is that he'll blow some E on an incorrect maneuver, or a few extra turns, because he's setting up based on where he thinks I'll be, instead of where I'll really be.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wwydzo1mcnh/ardy123.ahf
http://www.mediafire.com/file/myanywjzigm/190D9 dodging.ahf
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Yip the trick is to get your opponent approaching you from a high angle off tail, and pulling lead pursuit, then initiate the BRD at the correct time. The set up and timing are crucial. Like Mtnman I set up with a moderate break turn to give the appearance of an easy target and to lull the bandit into attempting a tracking shot. I tighten my turn up as they close in forcing them to pull more and more lead. Very quickly they're pulling lots of gs attempting to pull the requisite lead and I may actually even vanish under their nose just as they about to fire. At this stage they can't even see you initiate the reversal. They miss, relax gs to see if the shot scored only to find I've allready done 1/2 the BRD, and they have all but overshot. The rest of the overshoot is all but assured.
The BRD works better if there is speed differential adding to the closure rate generated by their lead pursuit.
http://www.major.geek.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=barrelDefenseAndKill.zip
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I have some great films of this for you ardy I'll post them after work. Mtn mans idea is dead on but I usually do it to the left cause our birds suck to the right ( lol ).
The e state is big in this, and also the old hands here have seen it alot so they'll slow down with you and follow you up and over.
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Thanks guys.
Its strange, I see how you guys have done it, but for example, lets say I'm fighting a spit16 (cuz there are 100s of them every night in the ma), I'll turn to the left to cause them to attempt to get lead, and they won't bite, instead they play lag or worse yet, are on my six just following my turn. It seams it requires me to create a large 'e' discrepancy between me and the attacker before I can force an off angle situation. It may be that my timing is off.. I don't know :headscratch:
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When I was first learning it I went to the DA and flew about 5K in the middle of the lake. No shortage of guys willing to play along and attack you.
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here is a Thread covering the barrel roll defense........
Teaching Aid Thread by Badboy
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173151.0.html
wait for the avi to load or scroll down and you'll see where Badboy posted a better version of it, embeded in the thread.... let it fully load then watch it again by refreshing your monitor
also other great info from Murdr
( some links might not be available since we are rebuilding the Aces high Trainers website )
hope this helps
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Thanks guys.
Its strange, I see how you guys have done it, but for example, lets say I'm fighting a spit16 (cuz there are 100s of them every night in the ma), I'll turn to the left to cause them to attempt to get lead, and they won't bite, instead they play lag or worse yet, are on my six just following my turn. It seams it requires me to create a large 'e' discrepancy between me and the attacker before I can force an off angle situation. It may be that my timing is off.. I don't know :headscratch:
It just takes practice. In the beginning, you'll probably need to do like you mention, and set them up with a large E-discrepancy. As you master that, it'll get easier, and you'll find you can be more "casual" or daring with your set-ups.
Concentrate on one "version" for now, and in the DA sounds like a good idea, and get it down. It's much easier when you have your opponent higher, and diving in with excess speed. It's harder to turn it into a kill for you in the at case, but it's easier to get the overshoot and survive.
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I know how you feel Ardy...it wasn't till I went through it with spatula that I was able get it right...still there are times that it doesn't work but the majority of the time it does, you really have to learn how to ensure the con plays to your game so that you control there E state somewhat (took me some time)...as I have said before, these films and screens are good but nothing beats getting with somebody (mtnman,spat or any of the other proficient guys in the TA) and doing it for yourself that way you can get a feel it (so to speak).
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I know how you feel Ardy...it wasn't till I went through it with spatula that I was able get it right...still there are times that it doesn't work but the majority of the time it does, you really have to learn how to ensure the con plays to your game so that you control there E state somewhat (took me some time)...as I have said before, these films and screens are good but nothing beats getting with somebody (mtnman,spat or any of the other proficient guys in the TA) and doing it for yourself that way you can get a feel it (so to speak).
I'll be on tonight Ardy if you want to practice. Tongs nails this one on the head. There are also some planes, 50cal and hispano armed birds that make this a much more dangerous game of cat and mouse because of thier great ballistics even when pulling lead. You really have to cut into them hard before the vert to avoid getting your arse shot up.
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I'll be on tonight Ardy if you want to practice. Tongs nails this one on the head. There are also some planes, 50cal and hispano armed birds that make this a much more dangerous game of cat and mouse because of thier great ballistics even when pulling lead. You really have to cut into them hard before the vert to avoid getting your arse shot up.
Ok, Thanks BillyD, I'd love to practice this, esp against spits, cuz they always get me when I attempt this ACM in the MA. I'll be on, but around 10PST.
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Ardy,
The situations u describe all result from the attacker following in LAG pursuit. All of them describe the attacker as behind you or put another way with you in constant overshoot via angles.
The real problem is how to reverse when the attacker is lagging your six. When this happens he has time to respond to any move you make.
The way I see it is you have two options
1. Use shallow dives and fly clean on the dive to gain energy and or seperation. Enough to force him nose down into a higher speed tail chase where you can put the brakes on BEFORE he does and bring it to close scissors or climb out to the top
2. Use the angle off your tail to create angles he can not follow. In lag pursuit the attacker is keeping an angle of your tail. You can use this given angle by increasing it with a nose down hard yoyo's bringing your nose up first. That is to yaw hard into nose down and then force a nose up by you reducing throttle and tork rolling.
Once go get into a position of equal angles...Notice I did not say energy....you have an escape.
Your escape should be designed to maximise speed...NOT altitude....use the speed to maneuver.
Any time an attacker is in lag pursuit he will be behind you in the speed curve. Meaning you can get it faster than he can. This translates into getting away for seperation or gaining angles via turn rate.
Angels are created by going faster or slower. If you are at the same speed angles can only be created by plane specific advantages such as roll rate or superior turn.
Angles are also created by the yoyo. The yoyo seems like just another ACM term. But it is the basis for nearly ALL angle fights. It is a simple basic maneuver everyone knows about but few actually use it correctly.
A yoyo is more than a way to get a gun solution. If you think ahead a little you can use the angels created to maneuver into nose down or up and force the attacker to respond to you.
Often this allows you to retain your energy and pick the right time to go for gun or saddle.
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Hey Ardy, decide if you are going to try and make a snapshot or if you are going to try and bait them into equalising E state enough for a chase shot.
1) the snapshot - it doesnt matter if you lose too much E, all you must focus on is hitting the snapshot and reseting. Sounds like what you describe, maybe your gunnery technique is letting you down there? Fire earlier than you expect, especialy on inverted shots. This kind of tactic works well if you are running for home low on the deck and spit16 dives down on your 109G14. You cannot escape running, you must fight. You do one move in defence, one snapshot, then dive and try to get away from them before they turn back around on you and realise what happened to their easy kill.
2) the bait reversal - it's dangerous, there's nothign else to say. You are basically assuming the enmy is less competent than yourself to even try this move. Still it is very effective even with equal players if the attacker is careless for a moment. The trick is in keeping enough speed to match the attacker. You need to drag them vertically down for some time to stand a chance of equalising energy with them. You usualy have to let them have a shot to draw them in close enough for you to chase them back up. You must dump just enough E to avoid being shot but not so much that you are in the same possition. It's a game of two pilots, so never can be a flawless tactic.
I'm not saying you can only go for one or the other, but I think it's important to have a clear picture of what you intend to do. Say if there are alot of enemy flying near you would be only wanting to gain a snapshot, then keep your speed and reset your SA. Or you may be sure it is a 1 on 1 situation and then will not blow excessive E or waste angles to gain that snapshot, playing for he bigger picture of E equalisation. Or you may find that you can do both at the same time. All I'm saying is be definite with your move intentions, even though you may find that this attacker has just got your number today whatever you did. After all, they do star with all the cards, and not everyone attacks like a fool.
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1. Use shallow dives and fly clean on the dive to gain energy and or seperation. Enough to force him nose down into a higher speed tail chase where you can put the brakes on BEFORE he does and bring it to close scissors or climb out to the top
2. Use the angle off your tail to create angles he can not follow. In lag pursuit the attacker is keeping an angle of your tail. You can use this given angle by increasing it with a nose down hard yoyo's bringing your nose up first. That is to yaw hard into nose down and then force a nose up by you reducing throttle and tork rolling.
Agent,
Thank you for your explanation, do you happen to have a video of either of these maneuvers?
Thanks
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apart from timing, I think the key to BRD is speed differential - you want enough that they cant turn with you, but not so much that you cant take a shot on the overshoot or tempt them to dump thier E to turn with you. essentially they will either blow through giving you an overshoot opportunity, or get suckered into a rolling scissors where you already have the advantage.
if they blow through very quickly you may not even need to complete the roll (2nd kill at 2:00ish):
http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/A20%20niki%20pick%20and%20spit%20os_0043.ahf (http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/A20%20niki%20pick%20and%20spit%20os_0043.ahf)
if they decide to turn with you, the BRD is the first loop of a rolling scissors:
http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/spit8_barrel_roll_defense_vs_la7.ahf (http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/spit8_barrel_roll_defense_vs_la7.ahf)
note: at the beginning although I'm off the throttle to maintain the speed differential I nose down a little to give the LA the impression I'm trying to accelerate away, so he'll stay on the gas.
:)
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Ardy, Great fights tonight! Seems to me you got this down... Anywhoo more film fun. As RTHolmes says sometimes you don't even have to complete the thing and you get a shot....here is a fun one LOL.
www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/acrobat owned.ahf (http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/acrobat owned.ahf)
here is an oversped BRD reversal. Note he does ping me w/ some 50 riccochets. Thus the danger of baiting so close
www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/quantas owned.ahf (http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/quantas owned.ahf)
Here it is with the nose down twist, upon a newer player as RT mentioned above I point the nose towards the ground but I'm slowing down. Pull up into the scissor and boom
www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/mapp1777.ahf (http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/mapp1777.ahf)
Here it is failing cause it's too early, lucky the F4 is a bad shot and I get him to overshoot in roll 2. Try that on Mtnman lol yeah right
www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/dominus owned.ahf (http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/billyd/dominus owned.ahf)
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apart from timing, I think the key to BRD is speed differential
Close. What you're really after is a good closure rate. That can be caused by both speed differential and by lead pursuit/angle-off-tail. The good thing about causing a high closure rate caused by the bandit pulling into lead pursuit, is that you can both have the same airspeed but the BRD will still have effect and you have the energy afterwards to follow them up (or at least close enough for a shot). Relying purely on speed differential (eg throttle chops/skidding etc) throws away valuable energy and limits your follow-on options. In practice, i usually employ a balance of both. The balance is situationally dependent.
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Close. What you're really after is a good closure rate. That can be caused by both speed differential and by lead pursuit/angle-off-tail.
exactly, you worded it better than me, guess thats why you're the trainer :D
Here it is with the nose down twist, upon a newer player as RT mentioned above I point the nose towards the ground but I'm slowing down.
its a simple little trick, deception is an essential part of the dogfighting toolbox :aok
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alot of excelent info here. Just add my .02 because i been flyin the g 14 alot then switched to the k4.
I have learned to make some of these move effective or more effective you must improve your timing. It is less that 1% that seperates a win from a loss and the level you are trying to fly. Everthing makes a difference. You don't have to get 90% better only 1% but that last 1% is tougher than the first 99%
What i found in the barrel roll defensive keep donig it even when you think it is not working. just about the time you can see it not working and the spit getting guns. He is using it as a last ditch effort to get guns if you stick with it the next roll youll be on his six. I went to furball lake last night ( no shortage of spits to jump your six in there.) And was just practiseing getting them off my six. Helps with timing alot.
One more thing use the vector displacement roll. when they are coming on your six turn back into them nose down a little to gain E tighten up the turn only if needed as the try to get guns roll with thier wing line there is no way for them to get gun if done right because you are rolling while they are pulling lead. You will end up on there six but lower e. My goal is to keep doing it until they get co -e states. because they will loose e every time they try to get guns. YOU will either end up with a gun solution or a rolling sicissors.
Anyway look me up if you see me. I try to explain better.
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a decent stick can perform this defence from any angle 360 degrees it is essential to make yourself bloody hard to hit.
With perfect timing it can produce a couple of seconds of snapshot when you make them routinely your well on your way to ownage! :D
executed to perfection right here. http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk/film.htm
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all I see is a black window with Muse playing :(
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Mtnman,
I noticed in the first film you posted that while rolling over the top of your last barrel roll the film says you're doing 46MPH. Is that really the case or, are the numbers slightly off? I noticed you had full flaps but, flaps or no flaps I've never been able to go up and over at anything close to that speed.
:airplane:
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Thanks guys.
Its strange, I see how you guys have done it, but for example, lets say I'm fighting a spit16 (cuz there are 100s of them every night in the ma), I'll turn to the left to cause them to attempt to get lead, and they won't bite, instead they play lag or worse yet, are on my six just following my turn. It seams it requires me to create a large 'e' discrepancy between me and the attacker before I can force an off angle situation. It may be that my timing is off.. I don't know :headscratch:
Hey Ardy, if I understand correctly your almost saying they are either doing a small YO YO to dump some E or they dont have as much E as you thought they did. If you have a plan that is closing on you slowly I would suggest maybe a split S to see if he will follow you down then cut throttle and preform the BR. Maybe that or point your nose down in the turn to get E and preform maybe another move but theat one will still work honestly.
boomerlu I like to start a slow turn to appear "weak" and draw a con in nice and close. At about 6 to 800 Ill almost do an immelmen(preety much this BR this thread is about) to try to get a shot coming out. The defense against this is either out fight me(not a chance :D) or hit wep to extend or go vert for a rope attempt.
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Mtnman,
I noticed in the first film you posted that while rolling over the top of your last barrel roll the film says you're doing 46MPH. Is that really the case or, are the numbers slightly off? I noticed you had full flaps but, flaps or no flaps I've never been able to go up and over at anything close to that speed.
:airplane:
forgive me answering before MTN but i think the answer is that he is, at the moment of 46mph, not flying but moving through momentum. After years of practice you get a feel for how to throw the plane up and make it come down in a certain way.
Kind of like throwing a ball in the air and catching it. You have no influence after you release the throw, but you know exactly where it will come back down.
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Heya Bat,
still got that film of me and maha in the AvsA? I know it is kind of off topic, but it'll show Noah what some of the extremes are on the F4U stall end of the envelope.....
I can not put it back up until the Trainer's website goes back up......
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forgive me answering before MTN but i think the answer is that he is, at the moment of 46mph, not flying but moving through momentum. After years of practice you get a feel for how to throw the plane up and make it come down in a certain way.
Kind of like throwing a ball in the air and catching it. You have no influence after you release the throw, but you know exactly where it will come back down.
Thanks BatfinkV!
I'm working night shift this weekend, and have been all sorts of busy in between shifts too. I've had a chance to glance at the Forums, but not really to answer...
And yes, that's exactly what I would have posted myself, and that's a great analogy. The speed isn't "off" in the flim, I'm actually moving that slowly. But I don't have control at that point. I enter with enough speed, and just "coast" through the period where I'm waiting for my speed to come back up. So yes, Noah17, I was at 46mph for a moment, but I entered that maneuver at 150mph...
In reality, I don't find anything less than about 120MPH very "useful" in the F4U (and 120 is even pretty useless). It stalls at just under 80, if I go nose up and try to "hang", I can get it down to just under 60, and I may occasionally "launch" myself on a trajectory that will allow me to coast through part of a maneuver very slowly (as you mentioned), but I'm not actually "under control" or making the airplane do anything while I'm that slow. As a matter of fact, if I try to control the plane at that point I very well may put it into something hairy and end up in the dirt (or shot). I've heard many claims about ultra-slow maneuvering by the hog, I even saw someone post something about being able to bring the nose up at 60mph for a shot, lol. In reality, I can't do it, and haven't even seen film of others doing it...
Here's an example of what happens when I get greedy, and try to make the plane do things I shouldn't when I'm slow. There's a big difference between "coasting" through a slow speed segment, and trying to aggressively maneuver through a slow speed segment.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yqag4ygy2jz/Agent360 fun fight with stall_0001.ahf
I put the nose at a bad angle, and then tried to force the plane to maneuver for a shot (and then I tried to follow him as he passed under me, and that sealed the deal, in a bad way... A few seconds later, you can see I've learned from that mistake, and am much less aggressive in a situation that easily could have gone the same way. Patience is a virtue, right? Right around 1 minute in, I'm basically setting up for a BRD, but alter it as the situation dictates about 1/2 way through it, and I realize I have an opportunity to get less defensive and more offensive. I have no doubt that Agent would smack me silly if I made that mistake nowadays...
It's somewhat of a gamble to fly that way (getting slow), and I don't ever plan on that happening. I'll always keep my speed up in my fights if I can. On the other hand, all I ever fly is the hog, and I know the edges of it's envelope pretty well. One aspect to notice in the film is the "up and down" aspect of my flying. I'm NOT dropping flaps, leaving them out, and getting/staying slow. I'm also not going to be diving to the deck. But I want to time my "dodges" so that when I get slow and go nose-up, I'm doing it at an optimal time and angle to preserve my hide, but then I exit nose-down and get my speed back up quickly. Ideally, I'll be nose-up while he's nose-down, and come through my maneuver nose-down and on his six, so that I can accomplish two things at the same time (build speed and shoot, or build speed and pressure him, etc). I'm E-disadvantaged here, so if I'm going to lose E by maneuvering, I need the biggest return on my investment possible... Even if the fight gets to be on the deck, I'm still going to use every bit of "up/down" that I can. When that option is gone (if I'm still fighting), I'm in big trouble.
In this case I'm being pressured and need to do what's needed to mess up Ardy123's shot, survive his attack, and figure out a way to shoot him in the process. Those are the first priorities. In addition, I'm trying to get our fight headed further out into the water if I can, because that coastline was the border of a furball strip. It'll make my SA an easier task if I can separate us from the possibility of others joining in as well. Ardy lost here, but he's definitely a "handful" all by himself, and I don't want any other planes to join our fight.
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Often, when a con is on my six I try to break into some sort of scissors to force an overshoot. I have noticed that...
(NOTE: This is all done using a 109G14)
1) If I cut my throttle and go into a flat scissors (esp when above 250mph), the con usually overshoots but I have blown all my e. Also, I'm usually forced into a situation where the now mismatched e state leaves me in a position where Im constantly on the defense as the attacker just yo-yos and bnzs me until I screw up.
2) If I go up and roll over or go to the left, then go up and roll over, the attacker is able to follow me in the ACM and maintains on my 6. Needless to say, I die or resort back to option 1.
3) Sometimes, if there is a huge e discrepancy and I feel like doing something risky, at 400 out, I'll pull throttle off, slam right rudder and pull back and to the left on the stick, then I'll slip and barrel roll and wind up nicely on the attackers six, but again with less e than him.
Now, I have seen people do option 2 and just basic barrel rolls as a defensive maneuver but I am unable to make it work for me, what are the tricks, How can I evade an attacker with out loosing most of my 'e'?
Thanks
Make it nice and larg so its not like you rolling in place, and barrel roll isn't a definsive manuver that will accomplish a whole lot, except spoiling his aim. If your in a better diver, when you barrel roll keep pulling up on the stick when you upside down and turn it into a split S.
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... and barrel roll isn't a definsive manuver that will accomplish a whole lot, except spoiling his aim.
sorry but thats rubbish, done right it can completely reverse the situational advantage in your favour. from last night, I missed the d200 snapshot on the o/s cus it was late and I was tired :( but I was controlling the engagement from the moment the corsair decided to dive on me. shows that even a defensive maneuver can be done aggressively to turn the tables:
http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/47m_brd.ahf (http://www.lumbergh.aquiss.com/ah/ah_films/47m_brd.ahf)
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Make it nice and larg so its not like you rolling in place, and barrel roll isn't a definsive manuver that will accomplish a whole lot, except spoiling his aim. If your in a better diver, when you barrel roll keep pulling up on the stick when you upside down and turn it into a split S.
For some reason I don't think you even know what a barrel roll is.
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That was pretty much what ehe OP said he did. But a pure barrel foll under full power isn't going to turn the fight around. He said he had a problem with lack of E when he did what you did, so I'm not sure if its the same thing.
For some reason I don't think you even know what a barrel roll is.
Yes I do. A barrel roll isn't just making your plane spin without changing your position at all.
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That was pretty much what ehe OP said he did. But a pure barrel foll under full power isn't going to turn the fight around. He said he had a problem with lack of E when he did what you did, so I'm not sure if its the same thing.
Yes I do. A barrel roll isn't just making your plane spin without changing your position at all.
The move I think the OP is talking about would be almost better describe as a flat turn into an immelmen which is probably the best thing you can do against a con with more E. You talk about doing a split S which makes me think your not quite their in your ACM(no offense) but I see a split S as being a last option when you dont have the E or time to preform this move. A split S really just buys you time to get more E to use in finding a way to making the fight a co E fight where its who can win a scissors fight which is normally rolling scissors where most "even" pilots get to
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Hey Ardy, if I understand correctly your almost saying they are either doing a small YO YO to dump some E or they dont have as much E as you thought they did. If you have a plan that is closing on you slowly I would suggest maybe a split S to see if he will follow you down then cut throttle and preform the BR. Maybe that or point your nose down in the turn to get E and preform maybe another move but theat one will still work honestly.
I personally like a throttle off defensive spiral dive around corner velocity if you are nearly co-E. This will widen the E differential and your opponent will hopefully overshoot.
boomerlu I like to start a slow turn to appear "weak" and draw a con in nice and close. At about 6 to 800 Ill almost do an immelmen(preety much this BR this thread is about) to try to get a shot coming out. The defense against this is either out fight me(not a chance :D) or hit wep to extend or go vert for a rope attempt.
Yup, that's pretty much what you showed me. Just as the con is about to get a shot solution, you roll and pull up in the immel/BRD which makes the con miss and also has the added benefit of setting up the reversal.
The con having much more E should naturally extend or go vertical as it can't out turn the slower plane. TC and Badboy's film on this pretty much showed it in spades.
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The move I think the OP is talking about would be almost better describe as a flat turn into an immelmen which is probably the best thing you can do against a con with more E. You talk about doing a split S which makes me think your not quite their in your ACM(no offense) but I see a split S as being a last option when you dont have the E or time to preform this move. A split S really just buys you time to get more E to use in finding a way to making the fight a co E fight where its who can win a scissors fight which is normally rolling scissors where most "even" pilots get to
The OP states one of the problems being lack of E when he finishes the maneuver, if hes in a fight, and his problem is not having enough E, then he needs to build up some E, there for split S isn't an entirely inappropriate move.
And no offense taken Junky, I have no false illusions that I'm some sort of uber pilot. If there is a gap in my education, I'm willing to learn.
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The OP states one of the problems being lack of E when he finishes the maneuver, if hes in a fight, and his problem is not having enough E, then he needs to build up some E, there for split S isn't an entirely inappropriate move.
And no offense taken Junky, I have no false illusions that I'm some sort of uber pilot. If there is a gap in my education, I'm willing to learn.
Your right, but the thing about a split S that I dont like is its like a flat turn just upside down(that might be hard to understand) it exposes your entire plane which is never a good thing but boomerlu said a spiral dive which would actually help with that maybe roll your plane till your wings are almost perpendicular with his(getting skinny). I like to nose down on wep to pick up extra E maybe a nose down turn into the BR to get some more might help with getting more E.
Yup, that's pretty much what you showed me. Just as the con is about to get a shot solution, you roll and pull up in the immel/BRD which makes the con miss and also has the added benefit of setting up the reversal.
yep I probably use this move too much seems like some people start learning the more times they dive on you so I would say mix it up a bit with maybe just a flat turn so they dont get wise on what your going for and if they follow you in the flat turn then preform a chandell(i think thats what it is) and just stay away from his guns till you both stall, then the fight is on like donkey kong :aok :D
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Oh I understand Junky. That is a good point. And thanks for the move, I bet I steal it.
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Heya Bat,
still got that film of me and maha in the AvsA? I know it is kind of off topic, but it'll show Noah what some of the extremes are on the F4U stall end of the envelope.....
I can not put it back up until the Trainer's website goes back up......
sorry TC had a busy weekend, didnt notice!
And ya know what, i didnt it would be there but i checked anyhow, turns out i got two of your films. Got a free storage space upgrade so i can keep them up indefinitely now.
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/AvsAjuly29th2007_mahaKi84vsTCf4u1_10minutefight.zip - good times when maha was around, always a great fight and a good laugh. :)
http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/TCinoverhishead_7vs1p51B.ahf - this one is pretty epic though not the f4u, 7 on 1 holding out for longer than should be possible.
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Mtman,
That film of you stall fighting w/Agent 360 was awesome.
You both got so slow I was expecting you to fall out of the sky like rocks LOL.
I'll be looking at that one a bunch.
Thanks again.
:aok