Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Sunka on October 27, 2009, 11:08:06 PM
-
I wish when my wing got a hole in it and it was spewing gas when the wing hit ran out of gas it would stop spewing fuel begging someone to turn me into a fire ball. :airplane:
-
I'll give this one a +1.
wrongway
-
yeah i agree. Same for leaky radiators too. +1
-
Asked for this myself before. +1
-
You're not leaking gas... you're trailing gas vapor... Theoretically the air whistling around the hole that used to be your gas tank is picking up the gas vapor and carrying it out the hole again.
With oil and radiators, you're not just leaking the fluid... It's burning up on the engine and creating a giant black (or grey) cloud. So theoretically those trails would continue as well after either resource was gone.
-
You're not leaking gas... you're trailing gas vapor... Theoretically the air whistling around the hole that used to be your gas tank is picking up the gas vapor and carrying it out the hole again.
Once the wing is out of gas, vapor would only last so long...certainly not enough to make flames shoot out my wing till I'm in the tower, after that wing had ran out of gas for 15 minuets.I can empty my gas can here at home and hold a lighter to the open end and not get a flame..Unless I'm not understanding something your saying?
-
+1
-
I think the point is, just as the title suggests..... It is currently never ending.
I think I agree with that. I've had 24's up for over an hour after both an engine or tank was down.
At the same time, it shouldn't happen so fast either as Krusty points out.
+1
-
A point of interest, liquid fuel does not burn only the vapor does when it is mixed with oxygen.
-
s.I can empty my gas can here at home and hold a lighter to the open end and not get a flame..
I REALLY recommend you NOT actually do that.. :uhoh
-
Well if he suddenly stops posting we know what happened. :O
-
+1
I believe some planes had fire extinguishing systems as well, no?
-
I REALLY recommend you NOT actually do that.. :uhoh
ha ha talking in theory only,but my point being i can do it and should not end up going to the hospital this haloween as a burn victim.
-
You ever seen the video of the not-so-bright kid that sets a pumpkin full of gas on fire, then punts it with a golf club?
The surface of the fuel burns nice and calm sitting there. This is because only the vapor and the fuel immediately in contact with air is burning. When the putz smacks it and the fuel turns more into vapor and mixes with the air, it sets him ablaze in a massive fireball.
Vapor is MUCH more explosive and a fire hazard than a pool of gas.
-
You ever seen the video of the not-so-bright kid that sets a pumpkin full of gas on fire, then punts it with a golf club?
The surface of the fuel burns nice and calm sitting there. This is because only the vapor and the fuel immediately in contact with air is burning. When the putz smacks it and the fuel turns more into vapor and mixes with the air, it sets him ablaze in a massive fireball.
Vapor is MUCH more explosive and a fire hazard than a pool of gas.
Yep but no gas = no vapor,and the wing in question is out of fuel.
-
Go out to your fuel tank you mention, pour the gas out, walk away with it, and shove your nose in the opening. Tell me you don't smell fuel vapor. :)
-
Go out to your fuel tank you mention, pour the gas out, walk away with it, and shove your nose in the opening. Tell me you don't smell fuel vapor. :)
Once the wing is out of gas, vapor would only last so long...certainly not enough to make flames shoot out my wing till I'm in the tower, after that wing had ran out of gas for 15 minuets.I can empty my gas can here at home and hold a lighter to the open end and not get a flame..Unless I'm not understanding something your saying?
-
I personally have never had a fuel tank leak that later caught on fire. Never. Having a non-pierced fuel tank that's empty catch fire is expected, not just normal.
-
I personally have never had a fuel tank leak that later caught on fire. Never. Having a non-pierced fuel tank that's empty catch fire is expected, not just normal.
If i did not loose all my films 3 weeks ago i would post a bunch,but i have a finished movie that shows it,watch for the f6f.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vtWCHyyU0k
-
I can empty my gas can here at home and hold a lighter to the open end and not get a flame..Unless I'm not understanding something your saying?
The reason you haven't blown up is that the relative amount of oxygen in the can is low as you just emptied the can. If you were to wait for a period of time until the oxygen and fuel vapor were in the proper balance, the contents would ignite. Given the confinement of the container it more than likely would explode.
Not a good idea either way.
-
The reason you haven't blown up is that the relative amount of oxygen in the can is low as you just emptied the can. If you were to wait for a period of time until the oxygen and fuel vapor were in the proper balance, the contents would ignite. Given the confinement of the container it more than likely would explode.
Not a good idea either way.
I don't agree with any of that.,except,Not a good idea either way. I can wait 1 hour or 1 week i still wont blow.Not the oxygen that needs to build up its the lack of fuel
-
Well if he suddenly stops posting we know what happened
lol!
But to my knowladge the self sealing gas tanks should stop vapor or gas. Why are there no self sealing fuel tanks?
-
If it means I can endlessly cropdust my office, then I'll have to +1 this idea. :rock
Oh, that gas. Yea, +1 to stopping the creation of liquid matter in an empty wing tank as well.
-
I don't agree with any of that.,except,Not a good idea either way. I can wait 1 hour or 1 week i still wont blow.Not the oxygen that needs to build up its the lack of fuel
He's right. The reason you don't get a boom right away is because it's all vapor inside the can. There's no air, no mixing. That's why gas cans have the secondary vent to let air in as you pour gas out. If this is closed the gas won't flow out the nozzle as you dispense it.
Try taking a screwdriver (theoretically) banging a giant hole in the side of the can, twisting it around to rip up the metal and open it up a bit, wait a second, and NOW you'll get the explosion from the mouth of the can, because air has mixed inside the hole.
As for self-sealing tanks: That's modeled in AH. You can take hits and not get leaks. You take too many hits (or larger caliber hits, cannons, etc) and the self-sealing aspect of the tanks is ineffective. The tank walls swell and pinch shut tiny rifle-caliber holes. But 20mm cannon can rip out a footlong section of your tank. Can't seal that off.
-
He's right. The reason you don't get a boom right away is because it's all vapor inside the can. There's no air, no mixing. That's why gas cans have the secondary vent to let air in as you pour gas out. If this is closed the gas won't flow out the nozzle as you dispense it.
Try taking a screwdriver (theoretically) banging a giant hole in the side of the can, twisting it around to rip up the metal and open it up a bit, wait a second, and NOW you'll get the explosion from the mouth of the can, because air has mixed inside the hole.
I already explained why this is not an issue I'm not going to talk in circles ..read back.
-
And three of us (at least) already explained why you're wrong, but... (http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff255/OOZ662/rolleyes.gif)
-
Three tried and failed so far, keep trying.And i beg you to read what i already posted.There would not be enough fumes left over to make such a fireball for so long.
-
I can empty my gas can here at home and hold a lighter to the open end and not get a flame...
Looks like we need another Timmy!
-
Sunka, you don't understand the issue. We've apparently failed at explaining why you're wrong. However, the failure may be only in our wording, not that you're wrong.
The vapors are what trail behind the plane. The air flows into the gaping hole in your wing, mixes with the trapped vapor and remaining puddles of avgas in the tank, and flows back out.
It's very plausible that the trail (a trail, any trail) would continue from the airframe even after the fuel tank was unusable.
-
OK i agree if there is gas left over.But if the wing is empty then there would not be enough fumes.Err you guys are going to make me test this in real life.
-
You do realize that in real life even "empty" tanks still have gas in them? The pickup/pump/drain doesn't get it all. There are puddles. Especially if the tank shares the dihedral of the wing, and the pickup is on one side or the other, you might have quite a bit of residual gas.
I recall a story once where a pilot almost ran out of gas in mid-flight, and when he landed they checked the tanks. There were only so many liters left in each, and the tanks read as empty. The pilot was in disbelief that the engine hadn't cut out.
Just means "usable" fuel isn't always the same as "all the fuel that's in there"
EDIT: You ever pour yourself a drink from a picnic thermos? One of those round or square boxes or barrels with water and ice inside, and a spigot at the bottom? You put your cup underneath, press the button, and get a cool drink. Ever try to get all of it out, when it's empty? You have to twist and turn the thing at odd angles to get all the drops out, and even then you miss some. I'd imagine something similar happens in fuel tanks.
-
Sure i will take that into consideration.When my car stops because i forgot to look at the gas gauge for three days there is still gas in the tank.I just don't know if it would be enough to make enough left over fumes to make such a fire.I just wonder now,and feel the need to put my myth buster hat on.But i thank you for some food for thought and a project for the next week.Do we know if WW2 plane wing tanks where pressurised?
-
The reason you haven't blown up is that the relative amount of oxygen in the can is low as you just emptied the can. If you were to wait for a period of time until the oxygen and fuel vapor were in the proper balance, the contents would ignite. Given the confinement of the container it more than likely would explode.
Not a good idea either way.
not to mention the fact that you would need to get the lighter inside the gas can. vapors are heavier then air.
edit: spelling :D
To also comment on your original question Sunka, back in high school when I worked at a gas station part-time I asked the truck driver that delivered the gas why he did not change his placard from flammable. His response was that there were plenty of vapors in the tank to be dangerous. It would take a great deal of time for any decent size tank (ie wing fuel tank on WWII plane) to clear of vapors as to not be dangerous when leaking out of a bullet hole (to the best of my knowledge).
-
not to mention the fact that you would need to get the lighter inside the gas can. vapors are heavier then air.
I just need a fan acting like wind going past a hole in a wing.But Ty for the info.
-
If you want to test the self sealing tanks in a F4U just try a dive bombing an enemy field. One and only one hit and bam the main tank is leaking fuel. This seems to happen often.
-
Self sealing in AH? :rofl
-
Hoping a pilot of a large aircraft buts in to help me here (JR), But I thought that it was a regulation never to have empty tanks in large aircraft such as 747's etc because an empty fuel tank is a lot more volatile than a full one.
-
Sunka: As in real life, pilot armor and self-sealing fuel tanks only work against small-caliber ("rifle caliber") rounds, and not always against incendiary devices. Often times the ack hitting you as you attack something is a 20mm cannon round (if not 37mm, 40mm, 5", etc...)
Phatzo: Modern jets have an argon gas system that fills the tank's empty space with inert gas. Can't remember which flight it was that instigated this, but an early 737 blew up from that very cause. Since then (always AFTER the price has been paid, the bean counters...) I think all commercial airlines have that, and probably large military jets too.
-
Indeed and most times it happens its with 50 Cal's, cannon rounds just blow my whole wing off.
AND BTW thank you to all you who put up intelligent conversation on this so far (you know who you are)
-
"The first large-scale use of inerting systems for military aircraft fuel tanks was by the USSR in WWII. Mass produced LA-5 and LA-7 fighter aircraft by the Lavochkin design group incorporated an ingenious device to flood the main body fuel tank, mounted dangerously in front of the cockpit, with a huge volume of exhaust gas channeled through a plenum chamber, inerting it in combat" -Wiki
-
ha ha talking in theory only,but my point being i can do it and should not end up going to the hospital this haloween as a burn victim.
Don't try it!~ People burn and kill themselves every year because they underestimate the intensity of heat and energy released in a gasoline fire.
Firemen, Help me here.
-
google "welding fuel tank"
people have tried and died trying to weld "empty" fuel tanks..
seems about as smart as putting a flame to an empty gas can :)
-
Oh, from the title, I was thinking that this thread was about this BBS in general... ;)
From school, I learned that gasoline will ignite within a certain range of mixture ratio... If memory serves, it was 15 and 25 to 1 air to fuel.. Feel free to correct the ratios, because school was a LONG time ago for me... Naturally the type of fuel, and atmosperic conditions can alter this.... This is why you see the oddities of gasoline putting out the flame on a lighter, so on and so forth... But it isn't something that is worth messin with, just to find out for sure, LOL!!!!
I've welded or soldered many gastanks, a little common sense goes a long way when doing so... Like washing them out with water before hand, sometimes twice... Or filling them 1/2 full of water before working on them...
Like I said, a little common sense goes a long way!!!
RC
-
Ahem, theory also says that eventually the gas molecules will effuse out of the whole, and therefore no longer manifest a white vapor trail from the aircraft.
-
So basically from this thread, never weld my tanks while flying? :eek:
I will have remember that one.
-
Ahem, theory also says that eventually the gas molecules will effuse out of the whole, and therefore no longer manifest a white vapor trail from the aircraft.
And that was all i was asking to have happen. :D
-
Ahem, theory also says that eventually the gas molecules will effuse out of the whole, and therefore no longer manifest a white vapor trail from the aircraft.
Yes, but how long after the tank is no longer usable in flight? Half an hour? An hour? 2 days?
How long does the average sortie last after you lose a gas tank? 15 minutes or less (much less, if still in combat at the time!).
Probably a moot point to code in a time limit for the gas vapor if the max flight time never extends past the max gas vapor time.
-
Thank you HTC Guys!!!! :neener: :aok :bolt:
-
Just from personal exp. I took off in a Piper tomahawk after fueling at a local airport, and did not notice that my right fuel cap was loose, all you pilots out there, yes I know preflight, my fault. On to the subject, the cap fell off, and left a 3 inch hole in the wing. The Air going over the top of the wing sucked the fuel out of the wing, I know DUH. After a 20 minute flight, there was not a drop of fuel in the wing, and I could not smell any fuel in the wing. My dad did make me pay for the fuel cap, and for the Fuel I lost. But I can assure you that there was nothing left to combust in the wing. Glad that I was running on the left tank or it would have gotten real quiet on the way home.
-
Kinda hard to test, but does anyone know if empty fuel tanks can still catch on fire?
-
Kinda hard to test, but does anyone know if empty fuel tanks can still catch on fire?
Is air flammable?
If it's truely empty, the answer to that question answers it.
-
You'd think but it was very possible last time I checked, was curious if it got changed.
-
google "welding fuel tank"
people have tried and died trying to weld "empty" fuel tanks..
seems about as smart as putting a flame to an empty gas can :)
I have motorcycle fuel tanks welded all the time that had gas in them the just hours before.
-
empty fuel tanks don't explode. fuel vapors on empty fuel tanks do. didnt that airplane blew up after 911 due to vapors exploding in the empty fuel tanks?
semp
-
I think the definition of empty is the big key here, a tank once full of fuel then drained of all fuel is a large explosion/fire risk.
A tank that has had all the fuel removed from airflow becomes increasingly harder to set fire and/or explode as the tank is purged of fuel vapor.
Both are empty by definition of the word.....
-
Hmm we may have written this in 2.18 and not put it in the readme, I will have to check.
HiTech
-
Yes, but how long after the tank is no longer usable in flight? Half an hour? An hour? 2 days?
How long does the average sortie last after you lose a gas tank? 15 minutes or less (much less, if still in combat at the time!).
Probably a moot point to code in a time limit for the gas vapor if the max flight time never extends past the max gas vapor time.
Well, I see no reason as to why as we have 2x fuel burn rate, this wouldn't go away 2x as fast. Gas vapors are also, especially when weak, not a "solid white stream." Vapor can be seen, but it looks alot more like a wave (especially heat waves) then it does a puffy cloud.
-
Hmm we may have written this in 2.18 and not put it in the readme, I will have to check.
HiTech
You did ,i was just saying thank you in this post that i originally asked for this,and it got the convo started back up.So Ty again!