Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Vinkman on October 30, 2009, 01:19:11 PM
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I would like suggest arranging Arenas by Pilot rank, or Level-up arenas. Noobs all start in the Noob arena. Once you've demonstated you're in the upper percentile of Noobs you are allowed to enter the MODERATE arena, after that the EXPERT arena. Of course once you level up, no going back to the less skilled arena unless your score tanks in the next up Arena. This way the experts don't have to waste their time, and run their scores up, chasing after running noobs, and Noobs don't have to get discoraged that they are not having any success which leads to them quitting the game before they have developed the skill-set to be competitive. Then Titanic Tuesday could be the one night when everyone flies together. I think the K/D distribution the Lusche posted is so left shifted because of the talent disparity in the MA.
Leveling up can be due to many criteria not just the current 'pilot rank', I'm just using that as a catch all phrase for sake of concept.
I also think this would help retain a lot of new pilots and help grow the business.
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We already pretty much have a Noob arena. It's the cesspool called Furball Lake in the DA.
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What about the fact that two people with the same score can be leagues apart in skill? For instance, let's say a K/D of 1 is the threshold to be considered somewhat skilled (and even then some great sticks are below 1). All too frequently you will have pilots with K/D ratios of 1-1.5 who are better combat pilots than those with K/D ratios of 2, 3 or even 4+. If you spend any time at all flying base defense in this game, your K/D will suffer. If you routinely stall fight better turning aircraft because you want to see how long you can last, your K/D will suffer. If you fly higher ENY aircraft, for the most part, your K/D will suffer. In other words, in order to implement your idea, you'd have to have some way to determine skill from score stats alone, but score stats tell us nothing about skill past a K/D of ~1.
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You hardly can get better if you're not fighting better opponents.
Of course once you level up, no going back to the less skilled arena unless your score tanks in the next up Arena
Rank is easy to manipulate - in both directions. It has very, very little to do with actual skill.
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Forget that... What is "better"???
Score?
Hell most of the top 5 ranked "score potato" pilots can't fight their way out of a paper bag. They'd be all alone in the empty "expert" arena.
No, wait, that's GREAT!! Let them milkrun all they want in there!!! Keep them out of the majority arena!
EDIT: Lusche posted the gist of my reply already, heheh
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What about the fact that two people with the same score can be leagues apart in skill? For instance, let's say a K/D of 1 is the threshold to be considered somewhat skilled (and even then some great sticks are below 1). All too frequently you will have pilots with K/D ratios of 1-1.5 who are better combat pilots than those with K/D ratios of 2, 3 or even 4+. If you spend any time at all flying base defense in this game, your K/D will suffer. If you routinely stall fight better turning aircraft because you want to see how long you can last, your K/D will suffer. If you fly higher ENY aircraft, for the most part, your K/D will suffer. In other words, in order to implement your idea, you'd have to have some way to determine skill from score stats alone, but score stats tell us nothing about skill past a K/D of ~1.
As I stated "rank' or 'Level' would need some thought as you discribe. I think the smart minds of the BBs could propose something not too restrictive but still met the basic purposes which are:
1. Keep noobs in the game by creating a safer arena for them to cut their teeth in
2. create better competition for more experienced pilots.
3. control some of the 'squeakerness' that seems to piss off the veterans, by allowing them to develop situational/communication maturity before upon entering the Expert Arena.
Time and kills might be enough as well. If I guy flys for 1 year, and has 100 kills, I think he's pretty much ready for the next level regarless of K/D etc, because he clearly is a fan of the game and will stick with it.
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Forget that... What is "better"???
Score?
Hell most of the top 5 ranked "score potato" pilots can't fight their way out of a paper bag. They'd be all alone in the empty "expert" arena.
Lets see top 5 pilots in fighter mode. Grizz, Sharp, snailman (he doesn't really count as he has no backbone of his own admission), Devour and wmaker.
So Krusty can you outfly any of the above so easily?
the argument was based on K/D hence the use of Fighter stats.
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snailman (he doesn't really count as he has no backbone of his own admission)
And his top 5 ranking is just a result of almost exclusively flying the Tempest the whole tour. :joystick:
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You forgot a lot of others, too. Names that I have regularly killed whenever I can get them alone without their "escorts" ...
Kills/deaths is no measure of skill. It's a measure of how you fly (not how WELL you fly).
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Bruv, I'm pretty sure krusty was talking about overall-rank, not fighter category.
Oh, now this is too funny. You were ranked #1 overall last tour. Now, I know you fight like a demon, but I don't want to know what you did to get a good rank in ground vehicles and bombing. :P Well, actually, I know what you did to get those ranks because I've done it myself just to see. ;)
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Stats can be fascinating. Score can be a fun thing for some of us . Rank can give you a nice "look at me feeling" that nobody else cares about.
But giving score & rank a "true" meaning beyond a necessary evil for controlling task groups is most probably not a very good idea for gameplay.
Arenas divided by any kind of "success"? There's already way too much EGO in this game.
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I was just trying to point out the top 5 guys in fighter rank usually are pretty decent sticks.
As it accounts for KPH / total kill points and hit % etc that usually weeds out the lame boring pickers. Of course I know how to game the scoring system better than most ;).
The OP idea isn't that bad I think an arena for 2 weekers (or guys who cant fly very well) to learn and fight or at least get proficient amongst others of similiar skill level will help reduce the cries of HO etc.
I still would much rather see a dueling ladder system that would accurately reflect the better sticks.
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Lusche, I generally agree, but what about giving rank and score the artificially inflated meaning it already has?
I'm all for score reform, so that it's less of a crutch or bragging point for many players. I think it should be toned down, rather than blown up.
I think this thread's idea blows it up even more, so I am against it.
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The OP idea isn't that bad I think an arena for 2 weekers (or guys who cant fly very well) to learn and fight or at least get proficient amongst others of similiar skill level will help reduce the cries of HO etc.
It would actually reinforce "bad" habits. See furball lake. Who will those "noobs" learn from? And one can only guess the frustration of those being stuck in the kiddy arena for lack of talent.
I really do not see the point in trying to split the arenas in any way like this. Why shouldn't Mr. Godly and Mr. Suck have fun together in the same squad?
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Lusche, I generally agree, but what about giving rank and score the artificially inflated meaning it already has?
I'm all for score reform, so that it's less of a crutch or bragging point for many players. I think it should be toned down, rather than blown up.
I think this thread's idea blows it up even more, so I am against it.
I do not see any difference in our viewpoints on that topic?
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I may have been confused with your wording.
I thought you were saying that even if you make the score more balanced, it's still a bad thing, as it won't help the gameplay.
Sorry if I mis-read
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Stats can be fascinating. Score can be a fun thing for some of us . Rank can give you a nice "look at me feeling" that nobody else cares about.
But giving score & rank a "true" meaning beyond a necessary evil for controlling task groups is most probably not a very good idea for gameplay.
Arenas divided by any kind of "success"? There's already way too much EGO in this game.
True, But I think the game loses a lot of players due to the feeling of futility that ensues during thier first month or two. But that is speculation on my part. Does Skuzzy have stats on player retention rates vs. k/d vs. time? That would be very insiteful as to whether speration by, let's call it 'experience', owuld be beneficial
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I flew fighters waaaaaaay back many times when I first joined. I wasn't any good. Matter of fact I was utter crap. I couldn't fight or kill anybody. I could fly but that's it.
Didn't drive me off. The game had a lot to offer. Matter of fact I took up with bomber-piloting and had a blast, and did eventually learn to get kills in fighters some months later.
Just because the learning curve is steep doesn't mean it drives folks off. Makes them more interested, sometimes.
EDIT: Checkers has a much smaller learning curve than chess... But folks are much more likely to KEEP playing chess well into their life. If it's easy, it stops being fun.
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True, But I think the game loses a lot of players due to the feeling of futility that ensues during thier first month or two. But that is speculation on my part. Does Skuzzy have stats on player retention rates vs. k/d vs. time? That would be very insiteful as to whether speration by, let's call it 'experience', owuld be beneficial
Even if you're into flight sims, Aces High might not appeal to you. In some cases the mixed aircraft arena thing turns people off completely. I have a friend who owns a number of computer flight sims, but he will not touch AH because of the Spitfire vs. Spitfire aspect of it.
In other words, I would suspect that the AH game mechanics may turn just as many away as the learning curve, if not more.
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You hardly can get better if you're not fighting better opponents.
Rank is easy to manipulate - in both directions. It has very, very little to do with actual skill.
...so you keep tweeking the formulae until you get the disired results...namely better retention of noobs, and happier campers in the expert arenas.
In answer to your other post, the noobs would learn on Titanic Tuesday from the vets.
To answer your other post, the only way to manipulate your score backwards is to let yourself get killed. Do you think people would let themselves get killed so they could level down so just so they could get kills they could have gotten in the level up arena if they weren't letting people kill them? Not really sure it matters either way though, because the point is not to determiine how good pilot is based on what arena he ends up in, but to create different playing evironments based on how well a pilot plays the game.
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Even if you're into flight sims, Aces High might not appeal to you. In some cases the mixed aircraft arena thing turns people off completely. I have a friend who owns a number of computer flight sims, but he will not touch AH because of the Spitfire vs. Spitfire aspect of it.
In other words, I would suspect that the AH game mechanics may turn just as many away as the learning curve, if not more.
Perhaps that's true, but we could still retain the ones that want to play aces high, but are getting shot out of the arena.
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...so you keep tweeking the formulae until you get the disired results...namely better retention of noobs, and happier campers in the expert arenas.
Maybe you should come up with a "better" formula first before wishing for any possible implementations of it? ;)
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Sounds like a WoW mindset or something (I wouldnt know from experience or anything) where you want to control the 'lesser creatures' or whatever. Just play the game and stop being scared of noobs. :neener:
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The general idea behind this post has some merit.
There are so many guys here that have years of experience.
Getting blown out of the sky every time you up is frustrating and you have to really be dedicated to playing a game like this to get past the "noob" stage.
I'm still working on it.
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What about squads? friendships? An arena separated by an arbitrary ranking system would suddenly see friends unable to play together, I see that driving off more players than noobie frustration playing in the main arenas now.
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And how would this work with squads?
You talk about clubbing baby seals like it's a bad thing.
Sorting by rank is for competition. The arenas are for fun. There is a competitive aspect to score for some but most players aren't competing.
Edit: Good point Soulyss. Beat me to it. :cheers:
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A halo style matchmaking system would be cool, players who are in the two week trial fight eachother and the winner goes up while the loser fights another guy until he wins.
That would be good in a special arena for old hands as well. :D
But almost completely infeasible on this system, still a nice thought
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1. Keep noobs in the game by creating a safer arena for them to cut their teeth in
Here's an idea...
How about not caring so much about a quick kill, your score and/or rank and maybe giving that noob a good long fight? I've been in 10-minute dogfights with noobs...not because I suck, but to let them fly around and experience a dogfight. I ping them with a handfull of .303's now and then, just to let them know they'd be dead. Unfortunately, too many people only care about the quick kill and the chest-thumping afterwards. This, to me, is the reason a noob would leave and never return.
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What about squads? friendships? An arena separated by an arbitrary ranking system would suddenly see friends unable to play together, I see that driving off more players than noobie frustration playing in the main arenas now.
Agreed, that's what drove me away from RumbleFighter. I was in the Semi-Pro Arenas while the rest of my friends were in either the Pro or Amatuer arenas.
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what makes me laugh about this game is people who think they're so good that having a new player in the same arena is beneath them. maybe we should have an arena where the top aces can fite among themselves and let them have a commite who will select the 'experts" . but with one condition once u join the top ace fraternity u cant come back to the regular arenas. that way the rest of u noobs can keep on having fun. btw u ever think about how many "experts" are logged in at any one time? how many do u think u would have playing, my guess not many.
semp
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Not agreeing with this idea - it would leave players like me fubar'd pretty much. I fly to have fun with my squaddies, and fight against the sticks above me (which is pretty much everyone ;)) - how would I learn anything useful in an area like Furball Lake (no dig at those who fly there)?
How would I gain experience not flying against the likes of Delirium, WMLute, Snaily, Bruv, Grizz, Skyrock and company (sorry, got carried away with those I still need to kill lol...)?
Whilst killing those who know even less than me can be fun, where's the challenge? This game has a steep learning curve, why take away some of the thrill of going up against the better sticks, win or lose - every time I've been killed by one of the "names", I've asked how I could do better, and have always been given some sort of tip, advice etc - who'd going to be able to do that if we are all stuck in some arbitrary leveled arena?
Wurzel (sorry, bit of a wall there, but just some of the things that strike me as not good for the game overall)
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The only way I see this happening without HTC having to do a ton of work to make it happen is implementing a 'Beginner Arena'. Make it so you can only go in if your account is less then X months old, and to stop 'vets' from going in with a different account HTC could scan user account information for repeating addresses, names, CC numbers, etc.
What would work a lot better would be if HTC got the "Training Arena" up and running. IMO that would do wonders in helping new people.
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this reminds me I have a wish of my own!
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You hardly can get better if you're not fighting better opponents.
Rank is easy to manipulate - in both directions. It has very, very little to do with actual skill.
Quoted for truth. :aok
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what makes me laugh about this game is people who think they're so good that having a new player in the same arena is beneath them. maybe we should have an arena where the top aces can fite among themselves and let them have a commite who will select the 'experts" . but with one condition once u join the top ace fraternity u cant come back to the regular arenas. that way the rest of u noobs can keep on having fun. btw u ever think about how many "experts" are logged in at any one time? how many do u think u would have playing, my guess not many.
semp
I don't think it has anything to do with an "elitist" attitude, but more about the safety of a noob.
AW had a beginners arena. It had everything in it but the better sticks :D They based it off of fighter score (their score system was much different) Once you reached 10,000 fighter points your planes would no longer get bullets. Pros could fly there, but couldn't shoot. This gave the noobs a chance to one, fight with people of comparable skill levels WITH ammo, or two, skilled players WITHOUT ammo.
This way the skilled players were not in there raping the noobs, noobs were not getting as frustrated by being killed all the time, and it gave the noob time to build some confidence and skill before jumping into the main arenas. As a CO of a squad I would spend time in there as a "target" to find likely candidates for our squad. If something like this could be set up I think it might help keep some of the new players in the game. Its very frustrating to just learn the basics in this game, and spending most of your time re-upping and flying to the fight only to get killed in the first turn.
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Someones been playing WOW again..."levelling up." :rofl
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(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f100/brayidur/facepalm_2.jpg)
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What about squads? friendships? An arena separated by an arbitrary ranking system would suddenly see friends unable to play together, I see that driving off more players than noobie frustration playing in the main arenas now.
Do I have to think of everything. I think upward mobility is less of a problem than backward mobility. If a noob wants play with a squad of his friends, he can move up and get crushed. But it should be harder for VETs to go poaching in the noob arena.