Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Motherland on November 02, 2009, 07:19:23 PM
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I've noticed that many of the pictures of landing accidents with WWII taildraggers I've seen have the aircraft sitting on its nose, or flipping over the nose altogether and landing over it's back. Yet it's extremely hard to do this in Aces High and it seems that the landing gear will never go past perpendicular to the ground, no matter how hard you hit the breaks and how quickly the nose snaps forward. Is this just something to make ground handling easier or am I misunderstanding how these kinds of accidents happen?
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Bubi, you've played other flight sims where it's easy to flip forward. AH is intentionally simplified. Heck, I can land with my toes all the way down on the pedals and it's a-ok.
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you've played other flight sims where it's easy to flip forward.
Actually I don't have any significant time in simulators other than AH.
AH is intentionally simplified
That's what I figured :(
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Actually I don't have any significant time in simulators other than AH.
Oh, I thought otherwise. :o
It would be very bad to land a real tail-dragger aircraft with the brakes full depressed, or to depress them fully immediately after touchdown...very bad.
Another bad thing that could happen would be for the tail of the aircraft to race ahead of the nose... :uhoh
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I have flipped multiple times on my nose or even all the way over on my back when making deadstick belly landings. Once I even crashlanded at a vehicle base and the top of my plane slammed into a building and I ended the sortie with a succesful landing with my nose straight down and resting against the building.
It seems we are protected by flipping ourselves with braking if we are on our wheels.
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Show me how you can teach a computer how much pressure you are putting on the space bar, then perhaps we can have more "realistic" braking. But as far as I know, my computer only knows I have the space bar depressed. If it read that as "brakes full on," I would always flip -- and that would be annoying.
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Show me how you can teach a computer how much pressure you are putting on the space bar, then perhaps we can have more "realistic" braking. But as far as I know, my computer only knows I have the space bar depressed. If it read that as "brakes full on," I would always flip -- and that would be annoying.
Um, I think mine is pressure sensitive... I know for example the buttons on XboX controllers can be pressure sensitive.
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Every key on the standard keyboard is on/off and does not know how hard you press it. You could have expensive keyboards that for some reason may sense that, but the everyday keyboard does not.
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Show me how you can teach a computer how much pressure you are putting on the space bar, then perhaps we can have more "realistic" braking. But as far as I know, my computer only knows I have the space bar depressed. If it read that as "brakes full on," I would always flip -- and that would be annoying.
You have a very good point. I think the game could accommodate players without analog brakes but still punish anyone who holds down the brake key as they touch down.
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You have a very good point. I think the game could accommodate players without analog brakes but still punish anyone who holds down the brake key as they touch down.
That's something I learned not to do from WB3. The 190's liked to flip with prolonged use of the brakes.
Nothing like losing one in an S3 after the first sortie because your spacebar stuck :furious
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I've never had any problem doing this, actually I do it a lot to land faster if I'm in a hurry, slide 100yrds or so on my nose and then fall on the cockpit. I fly the A6M though so maybe that's why.
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Show me how you can teach a computer how much pressure you are putting on the space bar, then perhaps we can have more "realistic" braking. But as far as I know, my computer only knows I have the space bar depressed. If it read that as "brakes full on," I would always flip -- and that would be annoying.
you can already map brakes to an analogue controller, I have it mapped to the thumb slider on X52 throttle :aok
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I've noticed that many of the pictures of landing accidents with WWII taildraggers I've seen have the aircraft sitting on its nose, or flipping over the nose altogether and landing over it's back. Yet it's extremely hard to do this in Aces High and it seems that the landing gear will never go past perpendicular to the ground, no matter how hard you hit the breaks and how quickly the nose snaps forward. Is this just something to make ground handling easier or am I misunderstanding how these kinds of accidents happen?
i think it's called a ground loop.
and yes, you can do it in ah. you must be doing something right if you can't make it happen.
come fly with a sapp'er who happens to be in a tail dragger. guarantee you'll see a ground loop....IF he gets back to the runway. :noid :bolt: :aok
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Show me how you can teach a computer how much pressure you are putting on the space bar, then perhaps we can have more "realistic" braking. But as far as I know, my computer only knows I have the space bar depressed. If it read that as "brakes full on," I would always flip -- and that would be annoying.
i think if you press the spacebar multiple times, it applies the brakes harder. not sure, but i feel as if i stop faster that way.
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That's something I learned not to do from WB3. The 190's liked to flip with prolonged use of the brakes.
Nothing like losing one in an S3 after the first sortie because your spacebar stuck :furious
all you have to do to prevent that ground loop, is to keep flying the airplane till ya stop.
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Ground loop is typically when your tail swings around in front of the aircraft, which typically causes the landing gear all sorts of side-load and shearing forces. Usually, if I ground loop, I'll snap one wing off as I roll the plane over.
The "endo" result the OP describes is more of a braking issue.
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i think if you press the spacebar multiple times, it applies the brakes harder. not sure, but i feel as if i stop faster that way.
If this actually slows you down faster, then you're basically doing the poor man's version of anti-lock-breaks. For airplanes.
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If this actually slows you down faster, then you're basically doing the poor man's version of anti-lock-breaks. For airplanes.
could be. i used to have the brakes mapped to my pedals......but something went weird in them. they work perfectly for rudder functions, but they suddenly started staying applied....so i remapped them back to the space bar.
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Like Stoney said, a ground loop is when the aircraft's CG swings outside the width of the landing gear. Causing the tail to come around regardless of control input.
Another major factor with the nose over is ground softness. This L-4 went nose-over landing on a grass strip that was soft due to excessive rain.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/3145303477_b2c0692a5e.jpg)
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could be. i used to have the brakes mapped to my pedals......but something went weird in them. they work perfectly for rudder functions, but they suddenly started staying applied....so i remapped them back to the space bar.
Sounds like you need to reverse the pedal brake axis or did you try that already?
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Sounds like you need to reverse the pedal brake axis or did you try that already?
i hadn't thought to try that. it just sudden;y started happening, and it was pissing me off, as i couldn 't get off the runway.....and there was a massive furball going on with incredible fights.....so to get back into the fights fast, i simply remapped, then never really bothered with it again.
i will, however try that when next i'm on. thanks for the suggestion sir!!
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I've got analog toe brakes on my pedals. I'm mapped to them and they work just fine, but I tend to just stand on them when I land. You can, on some planes, generate a nose stand with full brakes and a shove forward on the stick right as you land. As has been mentioned already, none of this has any relation to real taildraggers, which will bite you if you manhandle the brakes. But the ground interaction physics in this sim are not very sophiticated, so this part doesn't bother me much.
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I sometimes have to unplug and replug in my pedals when I go on my first sortie, because the brakes will be locked on the runway, or stuck at full left or right rudder.
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Ya just gotta get rid of the excess wing. Tada!
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8639/tadauq.jpg) (http://img22.imageshack.us/i/tadauq.jpg/)
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I only mapped brakes to an analogue controller after flying the Hurri for a while, that thing endos really easily. typh isnt great either.
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The only way I can do it is by using elevators... just using brakes I can't go past perpendicular. Just did it earlier in a 190, accelerated to ~150mph and slammed on the breaks, stayed perpendicular to the ground until I lost all airspeed.
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The only way I can do it is by using elevators... just using brakes I can't go past perpendicular. Just did it earlier in a 190, accelerated to ~150mph and slammed on the breaks, stayed perpendicular to the ground until I lost all airspeed.
land as ya normally would, but a little fast, and simply release the elevator, as you apply full braking.
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It's all too easy to put a real single-engined tailwheel-undercarriage aeroplane on its nose. Make sure she's chocked or put the brakes on, then give her full power and push the stick forward. Up the tail will come and . . . oh dear . . . !
The AH Hurricane inherits its Warbirds predecessor's faults, including the tendency to nose-over under hard braking (and the all-up-or-all-down flaps; real Hurris had flaps that could be set at any angle from full-up to full-down). The other fighters seem a little less inclined to do this but I've never put them to the test, having been trained on tail-draggers in RL. I flew Chipmunks and Tiger Moths and always held the stick hard back to prevent nose-overs when taxying or running-up, and I just operate the cartoon planes as I did the real ones.
:cool:
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I got a P38 to do a handstand on its nose cone once.
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Tempests love to flip over the nose. Especially if you jam on the breaks at about 150-180.
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Both analog brakes (I.E. rudder pedal toe brakes) and using keyboard have an anti lock mechanism that release the brakes as your tail comes up.
Nose wheel planes do not have this feature.
Analog breaks work the breaks directly.
Keyboard breaks do not go full on / full off but rather based on how long you are holding down the key and off the key.
Trivia question
With a tail drag-er ,describe what to do with the joy stick after a wheels landing from touch down to stopped.
HiTech
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Wheels landing? Ah, yes, we call that a 'wheeler' landing here in Blighty. Haven't a clue, all mine were perfect three-pointers, as recommended for de Havilland's lighter designs. ;)
Joking aside, it depends on the individual aircraft's characteristics, and the wind speed and direction. The objective is to keep the aircraft directed as straight as possible down the runway and undamaged until it stops. Any element of crosswind, a touch of aileron into the wind may be necessary to hold that wing down. The stick should be held 'neutral' in pitch at touchdown to gain maximum benefit from the airflow over the vertical tail surfaces, and the tail should ideally slowly drop gently onto the tailwheel/skid as it stalls. As the tailwheel/skid makes contact with the runway, ease fully back on the stick to prevent any tendency to nose-over, then keep it fully back until stopped. Direction down the runway once the aircraft is fully stalled and tail-down is controlled by judicious use of the rudder pedals, and brakes when lower speeds are reached.
I was a lucky so-'n'-so in that I mainly flew from grass airfields and just had to pick my spot and make sure I landed directly into wind; especially important in the Tiger Moth, because she was likely to ground-loop and wrap up into a messy ball in any but the very lightest of crosswinds.
:cool:
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I know Mr. Simba described what to do with the stick once you are wheels down until stopped by easing back fully on the stick and using rudder to direct the a/c. However, just out of my curiosity isn't the reason for coming all the way back on the stick to lock the tail wheel more than it is to keep the a/c from nosing over?
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I know Mr. Simba described what to do with the stick once you are wheels down until stopped by easing back fully on the stick and using rudder to direct the a/c. However, just out of my curiosity isn't the reason for coming all the way back on the stick to lock the tail wheel more than it is to keep the a/c from nosing over?
coming back on the stick keeps the airplane wanting to nose up.
when you land, you're still flying the airplane, even though your wheels are on the ground.
hold some backpressure, let the tail settle. steer with your rudder.
:aok :airplane: :joystick:
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you can already map brakes to an analogue controller, I have it mapped to the thumb slider on X52 throttle :aok
Same here. I slide my brakes to full just before I go wheels down on the runway. Never have flipped an A/C over, snapped my tail section off in a Hurri a few times though.
<S>
DasChewy
:joystick: :airplane: :joystick:
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Show me how you can teach a computer how much pressure you are putting on the space bar, then perhaps we can have more "realistic" braking. But as far as I know, my computer only knows I have the space bar depressed. If it read that as "brakes full on," I would always flip -- and that would be annoying.
I use "toe brakes" which are on an axis and I can definately apply more or less brake power, and I can also "flip" the plane on its' nose if I apply too much at too fast a speed. AH is only "simplfied" if YOU want it that way, alot of us "oldtimers" don't use auto takeoff either.
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So far I have not seen the correct response.
In reality after touch down the stick should be pushed forward , and as you slow down continue to push forward (maintaining level attitude) until you are against the stop, then slowly moved all the way back to set the tail down, and then held there.
The reason for this, is simply you want to maintain as much rudder authority as you can by keeping it above the wing. And also keep as much weight on the wheels and not on the wing.
On a cross wind, you will be landing on one wheel and doing the same procedure also adding in aileron until you can no longer hold the down wind wheel off the ground.
HiTech
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When you have landed 3 point, just keep stick pulled back till your plane has stopped.
Ooops. HT meand landing to main gear, not 3 point.
I have once landed Pitts to main only, it does huge bumps and is btc to get on rwy safe. Rubber(absorber, bumber)sandums are b*tc at that moment.
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depends on the plane :old: land a tempest at ANY speed and u can stand it on its face if you try :neener: elfy
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dont need no stinking gear :D
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you can already map brakes to an analogue controller, I have it mapped to the thumb slider on X52 throttle :aok
same here, as soon as i'm wheels up, brakes on with slider and I can forget about em.