Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Chalenge on November 06, 2009, 12:57:05 AM
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I noticed a very common use of flaps amongst F4U and P38 pilots that I simply do not have any understanding of. By that I mean in my experience it makes absolutely no sense so I have to ask for clarification from the aeronautics minded here.
Lately I have been fighting a lot of F4U pilots that use scissor type moves in defense. I dont have a problem with that because it was after all a Navy tradition to weave (I think its in the blood or something after all that weaving about in ships avoiding torps). But all that aside I see these same planes get to a point where they are too slow to turn well and then they turn even better! So I went and examined some film and I discovered that they are dropping up to three notches of flaps and then turning hard before immediately pulling the flaps up again. Of course I recognize that the F4U has great acceleration but this would seem to be pure and simple folly! I mean if planes had some advantage in doing this (in the real world) then they would have some mechanism tied between elevator and flaps would they not? I tested it with the F4U-1D and found the instantaneous use of flaps boosts the climb by as much as 2000 feet per minute and the nose of the plane DOES NOT appear to get any more nose heavy in feel or effect.
So tell me once and for all... is this abuse of the flight model or not? Please explain in detail why and be prepared to defend your position no matter which side you take. If this has been discussed before please link it I want to learn more!
(http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq197/Chalenge08/animpenquins.gif)
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The F4U is one of the worst accelerators in the game besides the -4 or in a dive. Straight and level, zekes, 190's and alot of others can out accelerate her. Now, if u saying u put flaps down before the turn, then that pilot don't know what he is doing or is putting himself in a bad position.
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Or attempting to force an overshoot...
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Chalenge,
I never put my flaps out BEFORE a turn, only during a maneuver if I need the boost--especially coming over the top of a vertical maneuver--or that extra "oomph" in the turn to get lead on a target, and I pull them up again the instant I no longer need them. I rarely go more than two notches if I can avoid it, especially in larger fights, because of the Corsair's troubles regaining lost E. It's only 1v1 situations where I feel free to go to full flaps (rare exceptions such as my 2v1 against a 109K and Spit XIV a couple months back do occur).
Keep in mind, also, that the Corsair's flaps generate a SIGNFICANT amount of lift. This is evident just by looking at the actual Vought operator's manual with the large reduction in stall speed as the flaps come down (I think power-on stall had as much as a 35-40% reduction in stall speed with full flaps, if not more).
Personally, however, I find that effective use of the Corsair's massive rudder is just as, if not MORE, important to being successful in the F4U.
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flaps change the lift characteristics of the wing, along with it's camber, and its general shape.
they help you get around, but if you leave them out, you hurt yourself more than anything.
if i'm not mistaken, the f4f's did have some sort of automatic flap....or was it the f6f? i think some japanese planes did too, but not sure......
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Cap,
The F4U and F6F had spring-operated flaps. Pilots could set two notches and airflow would cause the flaps to be pushed back up. As the aircraft decelerated the flaps would automatically deploy. So not automatic PER SE, but functionally yes.
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Chalenge: First putting flaps out will not increased climb rates, it is just equivalent to pulling your nose up, yes climb rate goes up for a few secs as your speed goes down.
2nd all that is happening is that they are sacrificing a lot of speed for a short duration turn. Once turn is complete they want flaps up to decrease the drag and accelerate.
HiTech
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maybe challenge is just bored ...
the penguins are cute but they cause me to question how serious this thread is ...
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It's been quite many updates since the last version I've tested, which I'm pretty much confident to say quite thoroughly and accurately.
Under the premise that those many updates did not fundamentally change each and every plane in its flight characteristics so far as to produce individual results that are drastically incompatible between each versions, I can vouch for the P-38 that there's nothing wrong with how its flaps effect combat flight.
Under my tesitngs, I was quite surprised to find out and confirm, that the AH P-38J and L variants were one of the worst maneuvering planes in terms of turning radius - with or without flaps, which is pretty much spot on with historical accounts - at least, with some sources such as described in the commentaries and excerpts of <America's Hundred Thousand> et al..
The empirical disparity between its perceived performance inside the MA, and its actual turning radius under controlled circumstances, is a very compelling evidence that the P-38 in AH, in theory, shows unique strengths which allows it to overcome its poor turning radius - namely, a torqueless platform that boasts very high levels of stability than compared to a normal, single-engined aircraft.
It's not that the P-38 turns better than others with/without flaps per se - but rather, the torqueless/stable nature of the P-38 platform allows it to dump speed and enter minimized, tight turns quicker than any other single-engined aircraft.
A normal aircraft - despite its lighter, and more maneuverable envelope - must often struggle to maintain critical balance to sufficiently lose speed and enter very tight turns, and must keep on struggling against imminent effects of violent destabilization at those speeds (particularly in the roll axis) to maintain the radius, whereas the P-38, in a sense, can safely enter a turn and keep tightening its radius without any delay.
Most often, this difference manifests in the MA in the form of a fight that begins with the P-38 on initial offensive, and the pilot on the defensive finds himself in a puzzling situation where no matter how hard he tries to outturn the P-38 behing him (which should supposedly be unable to match his own turn radius), the P-38 just cannot be shaken off.
What happens, is that in the initial stages of this battle, the P-38 behind the defending aircraft slows down a lot faster, and thus, gains a firing solution. Even after the fight devolves into a slow-speed turn contest (provided the P-38 has failed to shoot down the defending aircraft in the initial stage of the battle), the defending plane struggles throughout the many circles to keep his plane from destabilizing and spinning out on the roll axis, and at the same time trying to tighten his turn more and moe - whereas the P-38 behind him with flaps out, more or less comfortably maintains perfect balance throughout the circles and still maintains a firing solution.
It is only when the P-38 fails to shoot down the defending aircraft in the above two stages of the battle, that the "real" difference in the turning radius starts to kick in, and the P-38 finally starts losing ground in the turning contest.
I've often met similar circumstances when flying in the Ki-84, a very powerful, maneuverable plane that is capable of outturning most Spitfires and matching the Spit5 in turning radius - against a P-38.
Because the Ki-84 (despite being a single-engined aircraft) has the same type of efficient flap configuration as the P-38, it flies very similarly to the P-38, at least, in horizontal turns. As long as you can dump speed quickly enough to pull out the flaps, the Ki-84 can maintain an incredibly tight turn radius and chug through turns cleanly and stably at imminent stall speeds.
This makes the Ki-84 a very good match against the P-38, and often a turning contest lasts many circles, until finally, the P-38 losesconsiderable momentum, and reaches dangerously low speeds - at which point, the superior turning capability of the Ki-84 finally starts to show advantage, and decisively outturn the P-38 in the horizontal.
This is very impressive on the part of the P-38, considering the fact that its true turn radius simply is no match for the Ki-84. Despite this difference, even the Ki-84 needs a lot of time to finally win the low-speed, super tight turning contest against a P-38.
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Cap,
The F4U and F6F had spring-operated flaps. Pilots could set two notches and airflow would cause the flaps to be pushed back up. As the aircraft decelerated the flaps would automatically deploy. So not automatic PER SE, but functionally yes.
ok...that's the system i was talking about.....just couldn't remember the whole thing.
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Kweassa, there's also the issue of turn RATE and flap deployment speeds.
Turn rate wins nose-to-tail fights, turn radius wins nose-to-nose fights. The 38 maintains a decent turn rate even at full flaps (just over 20 dps). It can also deploy flaps much sooner, allowing it to gain a disproportionately large angles advantage at the beginning of the fight, which the KI84 can only make up for later. Remember, angles advantage is proportional to (Turn Rate Advantage * Time). From what I understand, 38 uses its flaps to gain the turn rate advantage early in the fight, going for a shot or at least staying competitive. This has much less to do with stability, although stability is admittedly a huge advantage of the P38.
Seeing as how the 38's main disadvantages are turn radius and roll rate, a scissoring fight might be the best option.
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This is a film that pretty much shows what Kweassa was talking about in regards to the flaps and slow speed handling of the P-38. It's a fight against a Bf 109F.
P-38J vs. Bf 109F (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?43y0xdwlgzj)
ack-ack
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Chalenge: First putting flaps out will not increased climb rates, it is just equivalent to pulling your nose up, yes climb rate goes up for a few secs as your speed goes down.
2nd all that is happening is that they are sacrificing a lot of speed for a short duration turn. Once turn is complete they want flaps up to decrease the drag and accelerate.
Yes that seems like reality and considering some other posts I see what the problem is with the films I have been looking at. When a pilot uses his rudder that does not show in films so if the guy is using hard rudder to make a corner you cannot see it later. My counter is (usually but not always) to nose up and if they try to follow they do not have over the top speed anymore and have to drop their nose and give up their six.
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This is a film that pretty much shows what Kweassa was talking about in regards to the flaps and slow speed handling of the P-38. It's a fight against a Bf 109F.
P-38J vs. Bf 109F (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?43y0xdwlgzj)
ack-ack
AckAck could you get a 4shared.com account? (its free)... My browser has mediafire banned.
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never mind, Boomer already covered it.
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Re: 'automatic flaps', the Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar and Ki-44 Tojo both employed 'butterfly' flaps that deployed automatically in tight turns. They were Fowler type.
:cool:
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AckAck could you get a 4shared.com account? (its free)... My browser has mediafire banned.
I'm blocked from Mediafire too here at work (LOL) so when I get home on a couple of hours, I'll create an account on 4shared.com and upload it there as well.
ack-ack
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I'll use my usual P38 quotes to illustrate the point again :)
From "Twelve to One" The wartime 5th AF fighter pilot's bible.
Allen Hill, pilot of "Hills Angels" in the 80th FS
"In cases where you are really latched, it doesn't matter much what you do, but do something and do it violently"
Cy Homer of the 80th
"When caught just above the tree tops or water at slow speed, you can only hope to throw his aim off by jerking and skidding, at the same time striving for altitude. Drop full flaps if neccessary--anything to make him overshoot."
"If you find your tail is dirty, then it is time to get violent at the controls"
This is the key to it all for me. In our cartoon 38s we are allowed to get into these positions in cartoon combat because their is absolutely no risk for real in being there, outside of having to get a new plane if we fail. Obviously in real world combat if you fail, it's one and done.
It occurs to me that back in the DGS scenario flying 38s with one life, I don't believe I ever used more then one notch of flaps as we fought much higher, and that cartoon life mattered more.
And of course my favorite combat report from a 370th FG 38J pilot in the ETO following the words of the 5th AF guys above when he was caught down low by higher 109s, as often happens to this cartoon 38G pilot
Lt. Royal Madden from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
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AckAck could you get a 4shared.com account? (its free)... My browser has mediafire banned.
Here you go Chalenge.
P-38J vs. Bf 109F (http://www.4shared.com/file/147719548/b3625d78/film512.html)
ack-ack
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guppy what is the full flap deflection of the p 38 in degrees?
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You can look this up on the internet... 35 degrees.
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Here you go Chalenge.
ack-ack
Thank you. Thats about what I expect out of flaps. Like I said the last time this was brought up I thought the planes I was seeing do this were acting in a desperate manner. However the last time I ran into an F4U it appeared (from my perspective) that he turned 180 degrees in the time it took me to turn 20 degrees. Its true that perception plays a big part in this but when I checked the film and didnt see any rudder movement that led me to think something was up.
Just tonight I ran into another startling example of someone doing the same thing only this time the guy is someone that appears to be new in the arena and yet he is flying this F4U (1A) like some of the best sticks I have run into. I watched him execute a double snap roll and then accelerate through a short dive and climb with my pony (which should have been hotter). I still need to look at the film on that one but it just seems wrong to me.
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You can look this up on the internet... 35 degrees.
yea well i did and got the same number. so this is what is confusing me, outside of the guy below talking about a desperate situation and doing "what ever it takes" to force an overshoot, i do not see any mention of extreme flap deployment. even the guy who is saying do it if you must is clearly talking about a desperate violent defensive maneuver. it even sounds like he is really trying to convince someone it is a better than having an enemy on their 6, someone who also may be not so sure about cranking down flaps that much while violently maneuvering.
point being i know this set of quotes has been used to show some historic example for extreme flap usage and its success. i just don't think it does that.
clearly flaps were used in combat we have even established that fact for the manually operated system on the 109s.
extreme flap deployments leading to anything good for the pilot using them ...
well, i still have my doubts about that.
no offense,
those quotes have been bothering me for a while.
+S+
t
I'll use my usual P38 quotes to illustrate the point again :)
From "Twelve to One" The wartime 5th AF fighter pilot's bible.
Allen Hill, pilot of "Hills Angels" in the 80th FS
"In cases where you are really latched, it doesn't matter much what you do, but do something and do it violently"
Cy Homer of the 80th
"When caught just above the tree tops or water at slow speed, you can only hope to throw his aim off by jerking and skidding, at the same time striving for altitude. Drop full flaps if neccessary--anything to make him overshoot."
"If you find your tail is dirty, then it is time to get violent at the controls"
This is the key to it all for me. In our cartoon 38s we are allowed to get into these positions in cartoon combat because their is absolutely no risk for real in being there, outside of having to get a new plane if we fail. Obviously in real world combat if you fail, it's one and done.
It occurs to me that back in the DGS scenario flying 38s with one life, I don't believe I ever used more then one notch of flaps as we fought much higher, and that cartoon life mattered more.
And of course my favorite combat report from a 370th FG 38J pilot in the ETO following the words of the 5th AF guys above when he was caught down low by higher 109s, as often happens to this cartoon 38G pilot
Lt. Royal Madden from the 370th FG, 9th AF, July 31, 1944
“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.
We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.
Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
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Never mind.
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Thorsim, you continue to miss my point.
The first quote by Cy Homer is saying, do whatever it takes, including full flaps if there are no other options to get yourself out of trouble. The second was to illustrate that point.
What I also keep saying, is that we cartoon pilots get too push this without real consequence since we don't really die. So getting in a life or death situation in my cartoon 38 is not really that so I can do anything in hopes of getting out of it. Getting to the point of full flaps, means I'm in a slow turning fight where I have no other options as the guy is going to get me unless I can get inside his turning circle first, so I keep working the flaps down.
What I see are folks wanting cartoon fighter pilots in the MA to fly like they have one life. It isn't gonna happen.
My mentioning of the DGS scenario was to illustrate how differently someone like myself will fly their cartoon bird when they only have one life and it does matter in regards to the job in the scenario.
Again to expect that kind of flying in the MA is not realistic.
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oh ok fine i agree desperate situations call for desperate measures, i had thought that you were presenting them all as examples of extreme deployments and until i looked up the 38 the 60 degree thing threw me but it must be a deflection off shot he is talking about ...
anyway i have no problems with the examples now that you have cleared up the extent to which you were intending to use them. sorry for any earlier discomfort over my misunderstanding the points you were trying to make from them earlier.
+S+
t
Thorsim, you continue to miss my point.
The first quote by Cy Homer is saying, do whatever it takes, including full flaps if there are no other options to get yourself out of trouble. The second was to illustrate that point.
What I also keep saying, is that we cartoon pilots get too push this without real consequence since we don't really die. So getting in a life or death situation in my cartoon 38 is not really that so I can do anything in hopes of getting out of it. Getting to the point of full flaps, means I'm in a slow turning fight where I have no other options as the guy is going to get me unless I can get inside his turning circle first, so I keep working the flaps down.
What I see are folks wanting cartoon fighter pilots in the MA to fly like they have one life. It isn't gonna happen.
My mentioning of the DGS scenario was to illustrate how differently someone like myself will fly their cartoon bird when they only have one life and it does matter in regards to the job in the scenario.
Again to expect that kind of flying in the MA is not realistic.
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extreme flap deployments leading to anything good for the pilot using them ...
It is axiomatic that at small angles of deployment, flaps benefit lift with relatively little increase in drag. At higher deployments, diminishing returns are reached, so that at 50% of flaps or so you are greatly increasing drag for relatively little benefit in lift. The way turn rate and radius performance works in AHII seems to follow this rule very closely.
If you need to fly as slowly as possible, that is all full flaps are good for. Thats why they are used in landing. That is all they are good for in AHII as well. There is nothing the physics of how flaps work in-game that you can put your finger on as bad, so you are trying to make a bad comparison with history. The fact is, AHII has many top sticks who can and will get slow and fly right to the edge of what is physically possible in their craft whenever possible, where using full flaps might be appropriate. What you are failing to see about AH vs. history is that most real pilots tended to avoid this situation like the plague, knowing that hit and run was the best way to have a long life. It is mindset difference, not a physics difference.
AHII also has many noobs who will go full flaps when in fact in their situation it provides nothing but diminishing returns, to their downfall. There are also many fliers in AHII who stick almost entirely to flying their chosen craft as an energy fighter whenever possible, almost never pop more than a notch of flaps except to land, and they do extremely well, not seeming to "Know" that the modeling in AHII requires you to fight full flaps all the time.
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Thank you. Thats about what I expect out of flaps. Like I said the last time this was brought up I thought the planes I was seeing do this were acting in a desperate manner. However the last time I ran into an F4U it appeared (from my perspective) that he turned 180 degrees in the time it took me to turn 20 degrees. Its true that perception plays a big part in this but when I checked the film and didnt see any rudder movement that led me to think something was up.
Just tonight I ran into another startling example of someone doing the same thing only this time the guy is someone that appears to be new in the arena and yet he is flying this F4U (1A) like some of the best sticks I have run into. I watched him execute a double snap roll and then accelerate through a short dive and climb with my pony (which should have been hotter). I still need to look at the film on that one but it just seems wrong to me.
he could've been a shade? i've been noticing some new names in mw.....most of which seem quite capable of flying the wings off of their aircraft.
i had a guy in a ponyb last night, was handily out turning my 38j. the only 2 reasons i can possibly think of, are
1) i made the mistake of letting him keep the fight nose low. he had dove on me from around 10k. i was around 5k.
2) i forgot to get rid of my drop tanks. i've been finding that if i'm careful, i can keep em and fight somewhat successfully......hence i tend to forget about them sometimes.
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It is axiomatic that at small angles of deployment, flaps benefit lift with relatively little increase in drag. At higher deployments, diminishing returns are reached, so that at 50% of flaps or so you are greatly increasing drag for relatively little benefit in lift. The way turn rate and radius performance works in AHII seems to follow this rule very closely.
If you need to fly as slowly as possible, that is all full flaps are good for. Thats why they are used in landing. That is all they are good for in AHII as well. There is nothing the physics of how flaps work in-game that you can put your finger on as bad, so you are trying to make a bad comparison with history. The fact is, AHII has many top sticks who can and will get slow and fly right to the edge of what is physically possible in their craft whenever possible, where using full flaps might be appropriate. What you are failing to see about AH vs. history is that most real pilots tended to avoid this situation like the plague, knowing that hit and run was the best way to have a long life. It is mindset difference, not a physics difference.
AHII also has many noobs who will go full flaps when in fact in their situation it provides nothing but diminishing returns, to their downfall. There are also many fliers in AHII who stick almost entirely to flying their chosen craft as an energy fighter whenever possible, almost never pop more than a notch of flaps except to land, and they do extremely well, not seeming to "Know" that the modeling in AHII requires you to fight full flaps all the time.
i'm done debating on the issue, i'm just interested in the facts so i stopped by here because
i wanted to sort out those quotes, what they said, and what they did not say.
beyond that we will have to continue to agree to disagree about the differences between the games and reality.
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You said this:
extreme flap deployments leading to anything good for the pilot using them ...
If your situation calls for you to fly as slowly as possible and/or create a great deal of drag, that is exactly what "extreme" flap deployments do. This is a "good" if that IS what you need for a particular ACM problem. This perfectly consistent with the physical reality of what flaps do for aircraft in the real world.
You are "done" with the debate becaue you cannot demonstrate where Hitech has done anything grossly wrong in modeling the aerodynamic effects of flaps. You object to the player behavior of flying the airplanes aggressively at the slow end of the envelope where flaps can be somewhat useful, and I suppose wish to use unrealistic physics to force more realistic pilot behavior in regards to flaps.
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You said this:
If your situation calls for you to fly as slowly as possible and/or create a great deal of drag, that is exactly what "extreme" flap deployments do. This is a "good" if that IS what you need for a particular ACM problem. This perfectly consistent with the physical reality of what flaps do for aircraft in the real world.
You are "done" with the debate becaue you cannot demonstrate where Hitech has done anything grossly wrong in modeling the aerodynamic effects of flaps. You object to the player behavior of flying the airplanes aggressively at the slow end of the envelope where flaps can be somewhat useful, and I suppose wish to use unrealistic physics to force more realistic pilot behavior in regards to flaps.
i had a guy in an fw........co alt merge. he dove for the deck, and his ack. baqd for him, as his field was de-acked.
anyway, he did just this. he blew his e, i was closing on him hard. he slipped, and i think, dumped full flaps. i went vertical to avoid overshooting him. this gave him just enough time to yank his cable out, as he literally disappeared while i was going over the top. :D :bolt: :neener:
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So tell me once and for all... is this abuse of the flight model or not?
Not in my opinion.
Please explain in detail why and be prepared to defend your position no matter which side you take.
Why I feel that way, in much detail:
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/aces_high/stallSpeedMath/turningMath.html