Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Tony Williams on March 18, 2001, 03:29:00 AM
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In view of frequent questions about the nature of the thin-walled, high capacity Minengeschoss shells used by the Luftwaffe in WW2, I have scanned a photo from 'Rapid Fire' which shows the comparison with ordinary HE shells. It is on my website, in the article on Oerlikon guns.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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I want this type of round.
BOOOM baby!
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsanta.tripod.com/stSanta.jpg)
"Live to pull, pull to live"
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Please Please Cmon HTC Hispano has the best possible type of ammo why cant the MG151/20, or at least come out and tell us what kind of ammo MG151/20 has in AH right now- did you guys see the tests with the F-8 vs panzer, apparently it doesnt even have AP capability.
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There was an AP version of the MG 151/20 round but it could only penetrate around 20mm and wasn't used much.
Now what you should really be pushing for is the 15mm version of the gun, as carried by early Bf 109F. That was a high-velocity piece with real AP punch!
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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TY sir (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6d*QIMXFJ1dV0nVP!LRnngI4kUkIgqVnLgpZBCZJbCJ89hxVbu1MggXddu7AP)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-18-2001).]
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I have wanted a MG 151/15 for quite sometime now, very high ROF very good velocity. SO how about it HTC? 109 centerline 15mm?
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Tony Williams wrote:
There was an AP version of the MG 151/20 round but it could only penetrate around 20mm and wasn't used much.
Wasn't used much?
I've seen references that the standard MG151/20 loadout on the Eastern Front was 3 AP shells to 1 Mine shell. A uniform AP loadout was used when IL2s were expected to be the target.
In fact, I've seen no evidence that a uniform Mine shell loadout was ever used. I've often wondered why, and would appreciate any insight.
Tony, what do you base your statement on?
avin
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Originally posted by avin:
Wasn't used much?
I've seen references that the standard MG151/20 loadout on the Eastern Front was 3 AP shells to 1 Mine shell. A uniform AP loadout was used when IL2s were expected to be the target.
In fact, I've seen no evidence that a uniform Mine shell loadout was ever used. I've often wondered why, and would appreciate any insight.
Tony, what do you base your statement on?
avin
The Germans went off AP when they realised that the armoured parts of aircraft were (usually) small and not hit that often, and that AP performance could be severely degraded by passing through the fuselage before hitting the armour - it had a tendency to tip the projectile so it didn't hit point first. As a result, they focused on the M-Geschoss as the main plane-killer, as hits anywhere in structural areas could cause serious damage. The MK 108 was devised quite specifically as the ultimate plane destroyer, to use only M-Geschoss.
M-Geschoss was not used exclusively in 20mm because it couldn't take a tracer, which was evidently felt to be important, so the older HE/T pattern was retained as well.
I think that this information probably relates to conflicts with RAF/USAAF. I can imagine that in dealing with Il-2s, AP might well be required!
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Now what you should really be pushing for is the 15mm version of the gun, as carried by early Bf 109F. That was a high-velocity piece with real AP punch!
I asked Pyro to add the 15 mm option when the 109f4 was released, the information he gave me was the latter varients of the 109E used the 15 mm cannon - the 109f4 didn't.
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IIRC he said the F-2 had it, but since it had a different engine to the F-4 it would have to be added as a seperate a/c, and they might add it one day...
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I have never been able to pin down which of the early 109F series used which cannon. Some of the first of them still had the MG-FFM, then some had the 15mm MG151, before the 20mm MG 151 became standard, I think from the F-4 onwards. Sources seem to differ on which carried what - any reliable info gratefully received!
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Tony I know the F-2 carried the MG 151/15 with 200 rounds, and I believe the F3 was the stepping stone for the MG 151/20, the F4 from my readings was with the 151/20, however I will get my books out for I remember reading of a F4 with the 15mm on it as well.
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I have seen a contemporary German document on the specification of the F-1 and F-2 which only mentions the MG-FFM! This contradicts every text I have seen. I suppose it is possible that the MG 151 was in short supply initially, so the planes carried the FFM until they were available.
Tony Williams
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Of course - it wasn't a tracer. Thanks. That makes perfect sense.
they focused on the M-Geschoss as the main plane-killer
Do you see the shift to Mine shells on the Western Front as reflecting the focus on downing Allied bombers, or fighters as well?
avin
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Why don't LW get a AP/mine combo, like the F4U has a combo of AP/HE? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It's all a conspiracy, I tell you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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I like the MG151/15 talk for the 109F-4 i must look into this my self (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwD6dygJj3VLohjcbwpf1ZD9tl4Zm4FLeaTku2YBSgjWjEw7Magg1DpYTc7DrvCL)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Originally posted by avin:
Do you see the shift to Mine shells on the Western Front as reflecting the focus on downing Allied bombers, or fighters as well?
avin
The mine shells were developed from 1937 (I have a copy of a factory drawing with that date on it) although not introduced until May 1940, in the Bf 109E-4. So they were used in the BoB and weren't specifically designed to deal with heavy bombers. I don't doubt, however, that the Luftwaffe found them particularly useful for that purpose. As the RAF found in the BoB, filling bombers full of small holes often didn't achieve much. The MK 108 was certainly the premier bomber-destroyer.
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Brady, as a matter of interest what MG 17 loading is assumed in the 109F? Some time in the early 1940s the v-Munition were introduced, high-pressure 7.92mm loadings with a 900+m/s muzzle velocity. These would make a good ballistic match for the 15mm MG 151, reducing harmonisation problems.
As a matter of interest, I have seen the following armour penetration figures for the MG 151:
Standard AP: 37mm/100m, or (different source) 25mm/300m (both at 90 degrees)
Tungsten-cored Hartkern: 48mm/100m, 42mm/300m (again, 90 degrees).
N.B. There was a 15mm M-Geschoss as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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tony thanks for the info
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)