Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Gh0stFT on June 22, 2000, 06:25:00 AM
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may a dumb question, but why should i
set Tracer off ? I mean without its much
more dificult to aim.
Anyone have an answere ?
Gh0stFT
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT:
may a dumb question, but why should i
set Tracer off ? I mean without its much
more dificult to aim.
Anyone have an answere ?
Gh0stFT
Well I can say that 2 days ago I saved my butt two times because I saw tracers surpassing me while I was in a bandit's 6. Another guy had sneaked on my back and started to fire. Well I need no pings to realize I was being attacked ,I rolled (190 does that great (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) and started the evasives. If the guy'd had the tracers off I'd been toasted.
Is a tradeoff...you lose aiming but you win surprise element. in a No-icon environment that could be really the difference between a victory or a close fight.
With icons its all up to you getting in the 6 of a stupid dweeb like me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[edit]And, BTW, ALL night figter had tracers off (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
hehe just a theory...but dawn...dusk...tracers off...hehehe
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 06-22-2000).]
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grabbed my first kill today with tracers off, gives a good little advantage as my aim was off at start hehehehe
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Oberstleutnant LJK_KämpferAs
Kommandeur von II Gruppe
ExecutivOffizier von LuftJägerKorps
www.LuftJagerKorps.com
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Tracers off actually seem to help my aim. Nothing visual to distract it I guess.
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I was thinking 'why tracers on?'. My gunnery hasn't been effected without them, yet it seems almost everyone else still uses them. The only time I miss them is when I'm trying to scare someone into turning from D8.
ra
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Same here Hblair, my gunnery went up soon as tracers went off.
Not to even mention the stealth thing.
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I tried no-tracers day 1 of 1.03. I thought
I didn't like tracers, but found that I relied on them for long deflection shots. I made some straight-away kills, but wasn't doing well on lead shots. I switched them back on! When gun-camera works again it'll be interesting to see films without tracer. Because there is no sound you won't know when you were firing, and the films won't be quite as useful for learning from. (Without tracer-on that is).
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What stealth are you talking about? With icons on, everyone who has eyes and not busy talking to other people, will see you.
What I had expirienced so far, tells me this option is of no use for me. I open my fire from less then 400 (lately i went down as far as 300) and I just can't miss on a steady target. And if guy is not steady, well that means he already seen me and it won't matter if he sees my tracers or no.
IMO, it's a "I'm sooo cool" option.
mx22
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Originally posted by mx22:
IMO, it's a "I'm sooo cool" option.
mx22
You found me out. (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/sounds/hdfhair.wav)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 06-22-2000).]
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I have no idea what hblair's WAV says. Something about sticking his head somewhere.
I probably don't wanna know...
XX
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Talking about tracers off:
Dont do it! There is no point!
Thank you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yeager
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Me neither dosequis, I don't have sound here at the shop. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Supposed to be some sorta Fonzie (Happy Days) WAV file.
No kidding though, I seem to miss less shots with the tracers off, why do ya think its some kinda "I'm too cool for tracers" thing mx2? LOL! I can't help that you depend on tracers to hit the target. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Doesn't mean everybody else does. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) No Biggie.
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Actually, I usually use tracers to gauge the best time to start evasives (You have to do as few as possible in the Tiffie if you want to outrun the other guy). With tracers off I'm gonna be roasted by guys with a good aim (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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hiya all:
with or without tracers is up to you.
as for aim getting better with out them, great to hear, but tracers where added to help the pilots in war time to hit there targets.
just my two cents.
blue skies all
wolf37
C.O.
THUNDERBIRDS
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hblair,
I called it "I'm soo cool" option because in reality everyone who does any kind of shooting while turning in his aircraft will achieve much better accuracy if he sees where his bullet go. You might get better results, but for that you should press fire when you fly pretty much in a straight line and open fire from very close.
mx22
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I allways felt that the benefits of the tracers outweigh the downsides. Sure if your saddled up on someone and miss your first burst you've given yourself away but sometimes it's good to let them know you're back there and can clr them from a friendlies 6 before you might actually have a good shot, and if you don't want to give yourself away.... don't miss. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kalger/sig.gif)
"Smoke me a kipper boys, I'll be back for breakfast"
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 06-22-2000).]
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How often does the tracer fire, once every 6th round?
Does this mean you shoot lead instead of phosphor bullets?
Could this imply you get a 15% greater chance of doing damage for accurate shooting?
Anyone know?
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Though some art vets, all art dweebish"
Jedi
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MX22, are you saying that there's no way someone could turn off tracers and not suffer lower gunnery? I'm sure my gunnery hasn't suffered, and others say theirs has improved. Also, many WWII pilots elected to fly without tracers, maybe they were being cool. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ra
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Hblair is cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Fighting in arena is way different then in real life. I think many pilots in WW2 died before they could see their enemy, tell me that's the case in MA.
When you bounce someone who doesn't see you, no tracer loadout is a big help, but when you know enemy had seen you and manuevers, tracers would help you out ping him.
mx22
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All true MX22. But even with neon icons the enemy doesn't always see you. I just killed a C-205 in a bounce in which he probably would have gotten away if I'd had tracers on. I was in a furball above him, and he was low heading toward a low furball a couple miles away. I dove on him from high-6 and by the time I got within firing range I was at nearly 500mph and having a hard time tracking him. I opened fire at about 600 yards and kept firing as I rapidly closed. All my bullets missed until about the last second, when I lit him up. He was obviously looking at the furball ahead so he didn't see my icon diving down on him. If I'd had tracers on he probably could have jinked out of harms way.
Another thing tracers do is they tell the enemy what direction the gunfire is coming from, and that way he knows which way to jink without having to first look around. This is true even in a furball where he knows he's in trouble. Your tracers give him a bit of information he wouldn't otherwise have had.
I've had it happen in a buff where I was manning the tail gun zoomed in on a fighter just out of range, when suddenly I see tracers coming up from directly below, so I jump to the belly gun and kill the guy attacking from a zoom climb below.
Tracers off are not a huge advantage, because most of the time they are not a factor. I think if people took the time to learn to shoot well without them they would probably choose to fly with them off most of the time.
An option I would love to see would be to have tracers in my secondary guns only, so I could still use them for spooking an enemy who's too far away to hit.
ra
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MX22 to me it has nothing to do with being cool. What it does have to do with is seeing the hit flashes when I AM on target instead of tracer smoke.
Thus, giveing me positive feedback as to what hits & what doesn't. It's a learned responce vs a visual one. In time it will blow your visual responce away.
Ever try to shoot a speeding Canadian goose with shotgun & tracers? No, your brain LEARNS where & how much to lead. Shooting is shooting to me, it's got everything to do with trajectory & timeing. Less to do with where you See your bullets going.
Of course being an old fart country boy I could be way off base here. In which case you can ignore me or flame me at your lesure.
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Ever try to shoot a speeding Canadian goose with shotgun & tracers? No, your brain LEARNS where & how much to lead. Shooting is shooting to me, it's got everything to do with trajectory & timeing. Less to do with where you See your bullets going.
Well said.
Easymo, you know the fonz when you see him? I got a harvey too.
(http://www.wycol.com/personal/M_Harrington/fonzmoto.jpg)
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Its a trumpet. I had a few of them back in the early 60,s. Use to set at stop lights, and watch the parts fall off. Wentworth fasteners dont you know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Ghosth:
<snip>
Ever try to shoot a speeding Canadian goose with shotgun & tracers? No, your brain LEARNS where & how much to lead. Shooting is shooting to me, it's got everything to do with trajectory & timeing. Less to do with where you See your bullets going.
<Snip>
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Consider yourself lucky, but don't think lowly of those of us who are not. IMO the "No Tracer" option is primarily for ambush or frame rate issues.
Why do you suppose things like "Predictor Gunsights" came into being and are so succesful?
One of the best AA gun systems in the world has 2 sets of radar. One radar tracks the target, the other tracks the fired projectiles. A computor aligns these two radar returns by moving the gun, walking the projectiles into target. This is called "Error Correction".
The human brain via visual imputs provides "Error Correction" with aid of visable projectiles in the very same way. This is simple.
The country boy example works for geese, ducks and pheasants. The range is short and the cone of many dispersed projectiles are very highly lethal to the target. The gun is not aboard a moving platform and the target flies very predictable.
So... Give me an A/C with 80-120 single shot 20mm cannon that can manuver with my target. This gun system set up so that it provides a projectile cone that has a lethal radius 3-4 times the radius of my target. I agree tracers would not be needed.
Hit a flying honker that is in crossing flight with a pellet gun standing in the back of a swerving Pick-Up driving down a bumpy road, then you understand lead.
This actually reminds me of a recent experience. I heard the jets going by so my head naturally whips around. I see 2 pair of A/C. Each of the pair flying in perfect formation with their wingman. One pair trailing the other, the 2 pair in perfect formation to which I assumed was echelon.
The 1st pair were F-15's and they were climbing out. The 2nd pair was a pair of Mallard ducks that were going who knows where. Visually, this required a double take on my part. Initially, at the time the F-15's looked much the easier target. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The F-15 is such a pretty bird in flight...
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Though some art vets, all art dweebish"
Jedi
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 06-23-2000).]
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ra,
I don't know what plane you fly that you can let yourself fire from 600d or so, but my Spitfire and now Yak don't have all that much ammo so I don't shoot from anything farther then 350-400d.
Another thing, even if that guy had seen tracers, it would take you less then a second to adjust for the right angle and ping him. Unless he has superhuman reflexes he would not have escaped you undamaged.
Why do you think tracers were introduced in a first place? Because pilots had problem with aiming and they helped them out.
Don't tell me it works in reverse.
mx22
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MX22,
I was flying the 190-A5, and as I said I was at around 500mph, so if he had jinked at all I would not have been able to hit him, trust me. Also, I had to open up at 600 yards because at the rate I was closing I was only going to get a 3 or 4 second shot before passing him. I am capable of hitting a non-manuevering target at 600 yards, but my controls were nearly frozen from speed so trying to make fine adjustments didn't work. So I held down the trigger and waited for him to fly into my bullet stream.
Many pilots in WWII elected not to have tracers, there is a slight advantage to it. With all the shooting practice we get in air combat sims, I don't see any advantage to having tracers except for spooking the enemy.
ra
[This message has been edited by ra (edited 06-23-2000).]
[This message has been edited by ra (edited 06-23-2000).]
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ra,
To sum everythign up. It's up to you to either have it on or off, to say the truth I don't really care. The only time I get caught surprised is when I talk to someone in AH and at that point it doesn't matter if they have tracers or no. Things happen just to fast for you to react and escape safely.
So I just fly with tracers on and when I miss, I know how to correct my aim. I don't get to bounce unaware targets all that often, I think I had this happen only 5-6 times since January and then, so I don't I can live with tracers on.
mx22