Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on March 18, 2001, 12:57:00 PM
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From Aviation History magazine,
by Dale Tapp
"Splash one!" That outburst really made me sit up and strain to hear the "flyboy circuit" loudspeaker over the din of louder squawk boxes blaring out tactical signals and situation reports in the crowded confines of the combat information center on my Pacific Fleet destroyer.
My ship was part of Task Force 77 during the Korean War. It was de rigueur for the force to be located in the Sea of Japan in reasonable proximity to the east coast of Korea while conducting around-the-clock air operations in support of U.S. ground forces. One bleak day during the last winter of the Korean War, the task force was operating near the northern fringe of its usual stomping grounds...and thereby hangs a tale.
At first, the 10,000-odd crewmen of the task force, long accustomed to the erratic zigzag of into-the-wind and out-of-the-wind flight operations, scarcely noticed when their ships continued to steam in a mostly northern direction. But as the task force maintained its movement to the north, the crews became more alert. And with good reason--for sure enough, in due time a few blips appeared on the air-search radar scopes in the direction of Vladivostok, a seaport in southeastern Russia near the border with North Korea.
Soon many more blips appeared on the radar screen. With solid overcast plus a chilly sea haze preventing shipboard observation of aircraft, listening in on CAP (combat air patrol) comments was the best way of keeping tabs on the situation topside. From radio chatter over the flyboy circuit it was apparent that Navy pilots could identify the blip traffic as Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 jet fighters--in large numbers.
To prevent any U.S. aircraft from accidentally straying into Soviet air space, the Navy jets orbiting over the task force were now under tight control by radar operators on the carriers. Just outside the orbit area, a swarm of MiG-15s milled around in an uncertain manner, with a few MiGs occasionally making attacks and then suddenly breaking off, as though trying to lure U.S. planes into Soviet air space.
Then, after perhaps 20 minutes of this game, four MiGs made a firing pass at two fighters from the carrier Oriskany; two more American planes immediately dove to assist their buddies--and an eight-plane dogfight erupted.
Amid the babble of transmissions and background static that filled the radio circuit, bits and snatches of flyboy talk could be distinguished: "...squeal, awrk...Chuck, follow me...BLEErap ...are you...SPRok...missed...skreEE CH...I'm OK...grawk...on target...SQUuak...splash one!... EEErawk...breaking off...sque...."
Then, as quickly as it had begun, the dogfight was over. No additional MiGs had joined the fray, so the rest of the CAP continued their tight orbits over the task force, warily watching but taking no action. The score in that brief encounter was one MiG definitely shot down, another MiG that disappeared into the overcast trailing smoke, and a third damaged MiG losing altitude and limping off toward the north. All of the Navy jets returned safely to their carriers.
A few minutes after the fight, one of the forward destroyers of the task force spotted a parachute descending several miles ahead and radioed the screen commander to ask if a rescue should be attempted. "Negative," came the prompt answer, followed a moment later by a signal from the OTC (officer in tactical command) directing Task Force 77 to change course to the south. At that time, the van destroyers were exactly 50 miles south of Vladivostok.
The task force steamed back south, the MiG blips disappeared from the radar scopes, and the entire incident became "unhistory." By not picking up the downed Soviet pilot, everyone except the hapless pilot was saved from awkward explanations. No public comment about the matter was ever made by the Russians, and the only official U.S. announcement, a few years later, merely mentioned that on one unspecified occasion there had been an "air incident," no details given. And that was that. Apparently, that unplanned clash was such a hot potato that both governments decided to relegate it to the status of a nonhappening to prevent any public inquiry.
One of the more extraordinary aspects of the affair was a conversation over a fleet radio circuit about half an hour after the incident, between the commanding admiral (on one carrier) and the two Navy pilots credited with the kills (on another carrier). The dialogue went approximately as follows:
Admiral: Congratulations, gentlemen. Excellent work!
Navy Pilots: Thank you, Admiral.
Admiral: You certainly made us proud of you, and I'm very pleased with your flying skill and the performance of your aircraft. I suppose you were able to out-maneuver the MiGs?
First Navy Pilot: Ah, no, the MiGs could outturn us....
Admiral: Oh. So you had to use your speed on them?
Second Navy Pilot: No, sir, they were faster than us.
Admiral: Ummm, well, you could out-dive them?
First Navy Pilot: No, sir, they could dive faster than we could.
Admiral (after a pause): You could out-climb them?
Second Navy Pilot: No, sir.
Admiral (sounding a bit flustered): Well, uh, er, a splendid job of flying, gentlemen, really splendid--again, congratulations!
Navy Pilots: Thank you, Admiral.
To put that conversation in perspective, the Navy fighter planes involved were Grumman F9F-5 Panthers, good, solid carrier planes but not known for dazzling performance. Navy fighter pilots, however, were extremely well trained and skillful. The result--at least in this instance--was that Soviet fliers in the vaunted MiGs proved to be no match for Navy pilots in Panthers.
This Panther versus MiG-15 dogfight was not the only combat between U.S. and Soviet pilots during the Korean War. During the latter stages of the conflict it was no secret that about half of all MiGs opposing Air Force North American F-86 jet fighters near the Yalu River sanctuary were piloted by Russians, and most of the rest by Chinese, with only a few North Korean pilots. The F-86 Sabre--by far the best fighter plane in the war--racked up more than an 8-to-1 victory ratio over MiG-15s during the war.
But without detracting from the achievements of Air Force F-86 fliers, the 3-to-0 score against MiG-15s by Navy pilots in relatively slow Panthers rated as an outstanding performance by any standard... even if it was classified as nonhistory. END
It should be noted that the Navy finally acknowledged this event in 1999.
My regards,
Widewing
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Didnt the panther have 4 nose mounted Hispanos....
We all know what happend dont we guys.
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The Official USAF history of the Korean War (published 1961) has this to say:
On 18 November, when Task Force 77 attacked the North Korean border town of Hoeryong, unmarked but obviously Russian MIG-15's swarmed down from Vladivostok. A flight of three Pantherjets from the Oriskany engaged several MIG's which were heading toward the fleet and shot one of them down. At General Clark's recommendation, the Joint Chiefs of Staff agreed to make no public disclosure of the Navy's clash with the Russians. The text cites a primary source, and the USN Official History (Cagle and Manson, The Sea War in Korea, Annapolis, USNI, 1957) -- so it was made public within 5 years.
Hallion's text (The Naval Air War in Korea, 1983) adds some details:
The Oriskany had just come into the Korean War on Nov. 2, 1952. The squadron was VF-781, the "Pacemakers", a reserve outfit, and the Oriskany was using the first F9F-5s in the theater (most of the others were -2s, the difference being mostly a bigger engine and a RR gunsight).
The division leader was Lt. Claire R. Elwood, his wingman was Lt. (j.g.) John D. Middleton, the section leater was Lt. E. Royce Williams and his wingman was Lt. (j.g.) DAvid M. Rowlands. But Elwood's plane suffered a fuel boost pump failure, so he sent Williams' section in. Anyway, I've got in front of me the pertinent section of the Oriskany AAR if you're interested. Suffice to say, Middleton got the "Splash" kill, Williams was given a kill, and many of the other MiGs were suspected of not returning to base. Williams trapped with no rudder control. Anyway, Williams and Middleton got the Silver STar, and Rowlands got the DFC. President Eisenhower met and chatted with the three pilots in Gen. Van Fleet's private suite in Seoul.
"The President-elect and his son, Army Major John Eisenhower, mixed highballs for the flyers and then, together with General Mark Clark, listened enthralled as the three described the fight 'complete with hand gestures and body English'."
Hardly sounds like "Unhistory" to me. The event was known about, published (in unclassified form) and studied by cadets in the USN and gun-toting history nuts everywhere not 5 years after it happened. The pilots got heavily decorated and even pounded highballs with Ike. The Soviet pilot was lost due to a "plotting error", and I'd rather believe that explanation. Soviet pilots were flying in the Korean war, and one of the major goals of the UN forces was not to prove their participation -- the UN forces knew there were Soviets flying, and they kept quiet about it -- but to capture a MiG pilot alive, and get more information on this aircraft. The Communist forces did everything possible to prevent this from happening: MiG pilots were not allowed over water, for fear of UN rescue, and they were required to stay well behind the front lines (hence MiG Alley). If you believe the US histories, MiG drivers even strafed a fellow pilot who ditched in the Yellow Sea.
In other words, the event wasn't made public at the time, and there never was a huge expose', but it wasn't denied as "unhistory" until 1999 either; the fact that the USN allowed information concerning this even to appear in an official history implies recognition that it did occur. And, to read the description, it was a helluva dogfight.
If you're interested, I could scan in the four pages or so I've got on it.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-18-2001).]
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LOL, the "Pacemakers" was that a unit of recalled retirees ?
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Widewing, frankly speaking - it is a story of an unprovoked invasion into a Soviet airspace and an attack on Soviet CAP. I seriously doubt that MiG pilots were clear to fire at the invaders. "Kills" awarded to US pilots are in no way confirmed, like most of the "kills" in Korean war.
Yankees invaded Soviet airspace at the Far East many times, and all the horror stories about Soviet pilots landing their planes to kill ejected US pilots are a good example of an official militarist propaganda. Soviet media never told such obvious lies.
Dinger, strafing a fellow-pilot that ditched in Yellow sea is a roadkill.
I hope you understand why it is so. Just like that "8:1" kill ratio for the only decent UN fighter in Korea.
Ura! Ura! New flame war OTW!
/*Boroda prepares to listen to another bunch of cold-war American fairy-tales*/
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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SALUTE to all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Boroda I am happy that you are here.
Widewing I respect your knowledge deeply.
But with all do respect to you Widewing I have a few remarks and comments if you plz.
First of all let me give you this number:
During Korean war 64 IAK has flown 1872 sorties during which they scored 1106 air victories - 650 of which were Sabre. Also 64 IAK has lost 335 MiG's. Have to add that this comes only to 64 IAK.
Others ridiculous sources point 14:1 Sabre vs MiG.
The F-86 Sabre--by far the best fighter plane in the war
By far??? where is that far? IMHO the MiG was by far better plane over Sabre. If you can decide when to engage and when to disengage is what makes you in plane by far better then enemy. The rest is up to strategy but that completely different part of the storie.
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Boroda, note that I prefaced that statement with, "If you believe the US histories" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm not so naive as to believe everything the US government claims.
Now, about this story in particular:
I don't think it was an incursion of territorial waters or airspace. At the higher levels, the areas approaching the Manchurian and Soviet borders were restricted; most what you get is a lot of cowboy pilots streaming across looking for a fight (not massive formations of B-29s "accidentally" bombing the wrong target). That certainly had happened before (and numerous times), and most of the cases during the Korean war probably haven't been officially acknowledged.
In fact, in one of the previous attacks in NE Korea, two F80s from the 49th Group repeatedly strafed a airfield north of the Siberian border on 8 Oct, 1950.
NOw, two years later, the UN is coming back North and attacking those "restricted" targets near the border. Was there a border violation? Did there have to be? Common sense and previous experience required the commander of Vladivostok to scramble a defense.
There were a hell of a lot more than 8 MiGs in the area that day. Why were so few involved in the combat? And the Panthers weren't the only ones up; there were a couple squadrons of Banshees airborne. Why didn't they get vectored in?
Here's the Oriskany's side of the beginning of the conflict:
"The bogies closed fast, their condensation trails clearly visible to the climbing Panthers. The trails passed overhead--CIC reported that they had overflown the intercepting PAcemakers-- and then, removing any doubt as to their intentions, the bogies themselves turned to close with the Panthers; they wanted some sort of confrontation. Still far below, Royce Williams tallyho'd the bogies while climbing through 15,000 feet, identifying them as seven MiGs "flying very high."
[at this point, I'll editorialize and say that "removing any doubt" and "they wanted some sort of confrontation" are fine cases of petitio principii]
Then we get the AAR:
"In a loose abreast formation, they came approximately overhead, made a descending turn and split into two groups, as though to bracket.
At this point the Pacemakers lost contact as the MiG condensation trails had ceased.
Because of his engine trouble Lt. Elwood and his wingman, Lt. (j.g.) John D. Middleton, remained at 13,000 feet. MEanwhile, Lt. Williams and his wingman, Lt. (j.g.) DAvid M. Rowlands, continued their climb to 26,000 feet under CAP control since visual contact had been lost. AS they leveled off, the two PAnther jets spotted four MiG's initiating a flatside firing attack from the ten o'clock position. Lt. Williams broke his section 'hard left' in a defensive counter and spoiled the effectiveness of the run, although he could not bring his own guns to bear. The MiG's recovered to the right in a strong out position with the fourth plane especially far back. Lt. Williams continued his wrapped-up turn and brought his section around for a tail-end shot at the last MiG. Firing from 15 degrees off the tail, his first burst from the four 20-mm guns put the enemy jet into a smoking, uncontrolled spiral."
Now, I'd be very interested to find out what the other side of the dogfight sounded like. My guess is "who attacked first" will be an open question. Incidentally, the AAR makes no bones about who fired first. Nor does it conceal the fact that the Soviets fired back -- one plane suffered serious damaged but managed to recover on the Oriskany (musta been a 23mm shell).
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-19-2001).]
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Dinger, thanks for the detailed info! Sorry, but I doubt that I'll be able to find Soviet information in that accident. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
The airfield 8km from Vladivostok that was strafed by F-80s on October 8th was called Sukhaya Rechka (Dry River), 9 fighters from 821th IAP were damaged, fortunately no personell hurt.
Some thoughts on the situation:
First, I doubt that Soviet fighters could ever think of attacking first. "Not to provoke", but show capitalists that Soviet side knows they are here and force them to stop flight operations. BTW, how close to Vladivostok they were? Looks like pretty close, if they were trying "not to enter Soviet airspace". OTOH, if Soviets command decided to attack the task force - US should have suffered severe losses. Only one mock attack, because I don't believe Soviet pilots opened fire, and if they did - maybe only to force Americans to change their direction.
As for the lt. Williams's kill - the situation looks exactly like the famous "first jet-to-jet kill" by maj. Brown on November, 8th, 1950. He reported the same effect: smoke, quick descent, while Soviet MiG (flight leader Kharitonov) simply disengaged witout a single bullethole. Smoke trail was caused by an engine throttle, and explosion of the drop tanks was probably considered as a plane crash.
BTW, according to Soviet data, first F-80 was shot down by MiG on November, 3rd, around 3 PM, by gv. sr. lt. Khominich, 25km Soth-West from An'dun. First Panther was shot down on November, 9th, around 9 AM, by gv. sr. lt. Stulov.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 03-19-2001).]
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Great stuff Boroda. BTW, the two F-80 drivers were brought in front of a courts martial, but not found guilty of anything.
one or two notes:
The Aviation History article quoted above shows a general ignorance of the readily available US historical data. It reads like the personal account of someone who was in the radio room of one of the ships, heard something that "never happened", and thought that it remained that way. The Oriskany AAR has the carrier 100 miles south of Vladisvostok, which would work well with the picket destroyers being 50 miles out of V. As you know, with jets, that's right next door. Panthers orbiting the TF would be something like 5 minutes from Soviet Airspace. Whoever was in charge of the air defense in Vladivostok had the duty to get a CAP in the air.
And yes, nobody had any doubt that if the Soviets wanted to attack the TF, bad things would have happened -- this is one of the reasons why UN forces didn't want to provoke the USSR. Can you say IL-28?
(of course, the USSR didn't want to provoke the US too much either; and few wanted to give the rest of the world a nasty suntan)
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Originally posted by Dmitry:
SALUTE to all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Boroda I am happy that you are here.
Widewing I respect your knowledge deeply.
But with all do respect to you Widewing I have a few remarks and comments if you plz.
First of all let me give you this number:
During Korean war 64 IAK has flown 1872 sorties during which they scored 1106 air victories - 650 of which were Sabre. Also 64 IAK has lost 335 MiG's. Have to add that this comes only to 64 IAK.
Thank you for the kind words.
As to 650 Sabres being shot down by MiGs. Dmitry, don't accept the Soviet, cold war numbers. They're completely bogus. The total number of Sabres lost to enemy action in Korea was just 78. It's easy to close one's mind and say that this is just American propaganda. However, we live in a society where the press will uncover the truth. Had another 475 Sabres been missing, it would have been impossible to conceal it. Another important fact is that every Sabre was fitted with a gun camera. Nearly every comfirmed kill of a MiG was backed up by film of it being destroyed.
Where's the Soviet gun camera film?
Others ridiculous sources point 14:1 Sabre vs MiG.
That certainly is excessive. However, the USAF claims 792 MiGs destroyed against 78 Sabres. This is slightly over 10:1.
I recall that the Soviets also claimed about 4 times as many B-29s shot down as were actually lost. Honestly, did anyone expect the Soviets to tell the truth? Experience seems to indicate that they couldn't even agree as to what lie to tell. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Seriously, If, like the USAF, the Soviets can provide undoctored gun camera film to substantiate their claims, perhaps historians will consider their claim as being somewhat accurate. However, should we expect to see such undoctored film Especially when lying was an official state policy.
No offense is intended Dmitry, I am merely pointing out that the Soviets of the Stalinist era would never admit to being on the short end of the stick.
The F-86 Sabre--by far the best fighter plane in the war
By far??? where is that far? IMHO the MiG was by far better plane over Sabre. If you can decide when to engage and when to disengage is what makes you in plane by far better then enemy. The rest is up to strategy but that completely different part of the storie.[/b]
I didn't make that statement. The fellow who wrote the article did. I merely posted the article.
Now, as to the MiG being "far better over plane over the Sabre". There is no evidence to support this whatsoever. The MiG was better is some respects, and inferior in others. I will grant you that the MiG had a greater ceiling, and therefore could and did dictate the terms of engagement. However, once the MiGs came down to the Sabres, disengaging was not so easy. The MiG was slower. It could not dive away. All it could do was try to climb away. Unfortunately, that does not usually work if the Sabre carries more speed into the climb. Moreover, you can't outclimb a stream of Browning .50 caliber slugs.
What the evidence does show is that you have two different, but evenly matched fighters. The difference in result, read that as **verifiable results**, must be found in training and tactics. Indeed, the loss to victory ratio is not far out of line with that seen in conflicts between the Soviets and Germany and with Finland.
If we desire to extrapolate this, we need only look at the various Arab-Israeli wars. In these conflicts, Soviet trained pilots, flying Soviet made aircraft, using Soviet tactics were butchered wholesale.
I believe that history is the best measure of Soviet success in the air. To date, that history does not support the contention that they killed 650 Sabres over Korea. On the contrary, history offers much greater support for the USAF claims.
So please, don't get angry. Just provide the evidence to support your argument. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-19-2001).]
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Widewing, with respect:
A. pointing to gun camera films isn't going to help much unless you can point to a source where someone has gone through each and every one of them to substantiate the claims. Moreover, gun camera films aren't going to show 78 Sabre losses.
B. Overreporting of kills is extremely common, and is a problem that all air forces have to deal with. In Korea, for example, the USAF thought they were kicking bellybutton with night B26 Invader raids on truck convoys, destroying per month 10-15% of the entire soviet factory output. Then one of the "conservative" b26 crews came in and reported hitting an enemy column, destroying "at least 6 trucks" and setting "a raging fire in the target area". They hit a ROK motor pool. One jeep suffered a flat tire and 6 ROK soldiers were killed. So I'm not surprised that the UN overreported MiG kills, nor would I think that anyone would contest that Soviet pilots overreported kills too.
C. Stalin or no Stalin, Dmitry's info comes (If I'm not mistaken) from the squadron records. This is not propaganda, but internal, military information for which accuracy is of critical importance. The "68 Sabres lost" due to Air to Air combat comes from a statistical survey published at the end of the war, and has an obvious propaganda value. Moreover, the arrival of the MiG was a serious blow to the morale of US pilots. So there's at least good motivation to "cook the books" and keep A2A losses down.
D. Anyway, the overall number of UN A/C lost is pretty high, including some suspicious correspondences between reports of A/C lost to AA fire and 64 IAK reports of A2A kills.
E. Don't judge the Soviets by the performance of their export-grade aircraft handled by non-Soviet pilots. In Korea, many, many MiGs were flown by Korean and Chinese pilots. Unlike the Soviets, almost none of them had any time in combat, and, worse, their language was not suited for the quick and clear dialogue necessary for radio comms (they had to invent it as they went along). Moreover, many of the pilots selected were not of the highest grade: Lt. No claimed that many MiG drivers were so afraid that, when a sabre got on their six, they advised against the break turn, which would expose the canopy to .50 cal fire. Instead, they recommended hunching down below the pilot armor, and ejecting before the plane exploded.
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Around 6,000 Sabres of all models were manufactured in the US. Are you seriously trying to tell me that over 10% of all Sabres ever produced were shot down by 1 Soviet fighter group? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Raubvogel
LuftJдgerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
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But you guys will believe that two US groups shot down 800 MiG-15s?
I'm saying, of course the number of kills for both sides are inflated. It doesn't matter how strict your scoring methods are; this happened in Korea, and it happened in WWII, to all sides (including the LW).
Overall, (according to USAF sources)the USAF suffered some 1400 operational losses during the Korean War. About 600 are "Miscellaneous Losses"; the rest are directly attributed to enemy action. The Navy and the corps only count losses to enemy action, and they had about 500.
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Originally posted by Dinger:
Widewing, with respect:
A. pointing to gun camera films isn't going to help much unless you can point to a source where someone has gone through each and every one of them to substantiate the claims. Moreover, gun camera films aren't going to show 78 Sabre losses./quote]
My understanding is that ALL USAF and USN gun camera film was reviewed and archived. I have spoken with pilots who stated that the film was usually critical to receiving confirmation of a claim. Did the Soviets even have gun cameras? Or like the Japanese, did they claim every aircraft that they fired their weapons at?
B. Overreporting of kills is extremely common, and is a problem that all air forces have to deal with.
[snip]
So I'm not surprised that the UN overreported MiG kills, nor would I think that anyone would contest that Soviet pilots overreported kills too.
I hear the argument that overclaiming was commonplace just about every day. Indeed, within certain Air Forces it was common and grossly out of line to reality. However, the two biggest culprits in WWII were Japan and the Soviet Union. What has been discovered of WWII American units is that overclaiming was generally confined to specific commands. Other commands had a more severe criteria, and in some instances, actually undercounted kills. However, taken as a whole, the U.S. pilot claims were damned close to admitted losses. Especially in reference to Japan
The Japanese were remarkable in their overclaiming. The AVG lost 12 Tomahawks (4 pilots dead) to enemy action in air to air combat. Yet, the Japanese claimed over 160 Tomahawks. Remarkable when you consider that the AVG never had more than 77 aircraft (the balance of 22 destroyed in training wrecks and ground accidents). In return, the AVG has 296 confirmed kills, 230 in air to air.
So, is overclaiming a problem? Yes. However, it was not as extensive with U.S. and Commonwealth pilots as it was with Japanese and Soviet pilots. The overclaiming argument is frequently tossed out to deflect the debate from the facts. Who overclaimed and by how much? Be specific.
C. Stalin or no Stalin, Dmitry's info comes (If I'm not mistaken) from the squadron records. This is not propaganda, but internal, military information for which accuracy is of critical importance. The "68 Sabres lost" due to Air to Air combat comes from a statistical survey published at the end of the war, and has an obvious propaganda value. Moreover, the arrival of the MiG was a serious blow to the morale of US pilots. So there's at least good motivation to "cook the books" and keep A2A losses down.
Kindly present some data that shows that the USAF (please confine this discussion to the F-86 and avoid contaminating the numbers with
those of the UN as a total) lied and reported a single F-86 as present when it was actually destroyed in aerial combat. Please, just one example will do.
While you're at it, where is the wreckage of the missing 450 Sabres? Where are the dead and captured pilots? Why haven't the families of those pilots asked about their whereabouts? Where are the Soviet gun camera films? Let's see their unit records.
So far, all I have heard is talk. Show us a shred of evidence, reliable, verifiable evidence that 650 Sabres were destroyed in air to air combat. You can look up the serial number of every F-86 lost during the Korean war, both in combat and operational losses. If the Soviets shot down these aircraft, you would think that they would be able to get a serial number from the wreck. Where are those serial numbers? Can they produce anything to substantiate their claims?
D. Anyway, the overall number of UN A/C lost is pretty high, including some suspicious correspondences between reports of A/C lost to AA fire and 64 IAK reports of A2A kills.
UN aircraft losses were high. however, the large majority were lost to triple A. Again, where are the wrecks and the pilots? Moreover, the UN didn't fly the F-86, the USAF did.
E. Don't judge the Soviets by the performance of their export-grade aircraft handled by non-Soviet pilots. In Korea, many, many MiGs were flown by Korean and Chinese pilots. Unlike the Soviets, almost none of them had any time in combat, and, worse, their language was not suited for the quick and clear dialogue necessary for radio comms (they had to invent it as they went along). Moreover, many of the pilots selected were not of the highest grade: Lt. No claimed that many MiG drivers were so afraid that, when a sabre got on their six, they advised against the break turn, which would expose the canopy to .50 cal fire. Instead, they recommended hunching down below the pilot armor, and ejecting before the plane exploded.
Please, this is getting silly. How much difference exists between export aircraft and
those of the Soviet Union? Same airframe. Same powerplants. Same guns. The difference boils down to avionics and advanced weapons such as missiles. Yet, Israel managed with export versions of U.S. and French fighters. I believe this is yet another rationalization in a series of rationalizations. The simple fact of the matter is that had the Soviet clients been flying the exact same hardware as the Soviet Union used, the results would have been the same. The answer is still the same. Better training, and better tactics.
As to the 650 downed Sabres: Let's see something beyond claims. Let's see some real evidence.
My regards
Widewing
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Let's just calmly go down the list.
FIrst off: gun cameras. Gun cameras won't give you an authoritative record of a kill. They will show a plane being shot at, and being hit, and if it explodes, well, that's easy. But we're talking about engagements at altitude, where planes are "spinning and trailing smoke". A gun camera isn't going to be decisive in even most of the cases. How many gun cameras show the planes crashing into the ground and exploding?
So it was a "common occurrence" for a kill not to show up on gun camera, and the wingman would have to confirm it. I have one case here of James Hagerstrom getting separated from his wingman, and Royal Baker, the Wing commander telling him that he "was not going to get a confirmation unless he had good film". "About that time, the crew chief, who was putting hte chocks under the airplane, sed, 'Colonel, let me show you this,' and there was a chunk of MiG-15 wedged in the leading edge of the airplane. Baker looked up and replied: 'I'll confirm it'"
Second: overclaiming.
A. The AVG (not even an arm of the US military) may have had a record against Japan in WWII, but the analogy is very thin.
B. Let's talk about the "Straw Man" fallacy. You claim my argument is that 650 sabres were indeed lost. That's false, so your whole counterargument is invalid.
My argument is that there is a plausible explanation for "underreporting" by the
C. While you're at it, take out the references to serial numbers, as we'd like to hold both sides by the same criteria. Can you list the serial numbers of all 792 MiG-15s allegedly shot down by F-86s? The closest I've seen to anybody trying to reconcile the two accounts is http://members.nbci.com/zampini/Korea/MiGsoverKorea.htm (http://members.nbci.com/zampini/Korea/MiGsoverKorea.htm) (and he provides more gun camera shots than you or I do)
D. and E. Now we are getting silly indeed. The UN numbers contaminate the USAF's record, but non-USSR pilots are valid testimonials to the quality of Soviet fighter jockeys?
First off, the overall US losses officially attributed to enemy fire are around 1400 aircraft, and overall well above 2000. And I have no doubt most of these losses were to AAA. Even if you buy the kill claims of all the communist units, the majority of planes were still lost to AAA.
Second, the UN was the force in Korea, and most of the non-US military was integrated into the US command.
Third, the UN did fly the Sabre in Korea. THat's what the USAF was representing. If you mean exclusively the USAF flew the Sabre in Korea, you're wrong there too. The 2nd Sq. SAAF was equipped with sabres at the time the 18th F/B Wing (to which they were attached) converted from F-51s to F-86s, sometime around January 1953.
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Moreover, the UN didn't fly the F-86, the USAF did
What about 2nd Squadron SAAF - equipped with the F-86F, flew 1427 sorties and lost 2 a/c to ground fire?
As for the "792" MiG kills - how many of those are those that were never even shot at, but seen to enter a spin and crash?
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ok lets go step by step.
1. I don't want to spill everything in one post or even thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
2. I never did became angry with anybody, specially you Widewing - I have too much respect for you to get angry just like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
3. Gun cameras - surprise!!! Most if not all of the MiGs were equipped with one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://vfghosty.homestead.com/files/Image2.gif)
In sight is F-86 S/N 49-1319 on the 6 Oct. 1951 Start range D.130 m end range d.122m. S/N 49-1319 shot down by Soviet Ace Popelyaev was the first Sabre that Soviets were able to capture. Due to 23 mm round that penetrated the fuselage behind the cockpit resulting malfunction of eject system US pilot was forced to ditch the plane...
(http://vfghosty.homestead.com/files/Image5.gif)
4. Yes .50 is good - but not to MiG - if I am informed right Flang review posted one article with calculation that 1024 rounds of .50 cal necessary to kill MiG. I doubt that number but the fact is that many MiG pilots brought back their plane that was pounded with .50 and sustained no damage.
5. TY Dingy for pointing on the fact that not only Soviets but Chinese and Korean flew MiGs also. Not as it matters much but still makes me feel a little better.
6. As for numbers I have only one comment - I don't believe them - period. I am surprise you do Widewing. I am waiting maybe next 10 or maybe 20-30 who knows how freaking many years to see archives to become public. Until then - forget it. No anger but simple mistrust.
7. Just as USAF suffered greater losses in A2A due to strategy being used - but so did the Soviets. Not having a free maneuver and limited to only one approach to the landing field with your gears, flaps down and Sabre squad standing near waiting for that moment. It did happened and number of planes were lost due to such situation.
8. The scoring system for Soviet MiG fighters were build in such way that the gun camera film, by itself was not enough to claim a kill. Here is a little quote from a translation I made upon Funked request.
General of aviation Lobov:
We counted air victories not only by photos from a gun cameras. In addition to film it was necessary to attach report from search team, reports of all pilots presented in that fight and confirmation from a local law enforcement over which territory plane was shot down.
As an example of our scrupulous counting could be one episode. After air fight one of our bravest and skilled fighter pilots Captain G. Ges' had reported another aerial victory. From his own words he was firing from close distance and the foe blew up in front of him. Other pilots presented in this engagement confirmed his position. However the photos from gun camera couldn't compile with that. Due to high altitude fight lenses (glass?) have wept during a dive and all of the images became obscure.
Commanders of Captain G. Ges have believed him but did not reported a kill. Uncertainty was cleared by a mechanic of Captain's plane after inspection - G. Ges has brought home inside of his MiG's wing a part of Browning Colt MG belt from the plane he blew up.
We had all the reasons to rely on gun camera film alone. One of the reason was a punch of cannon's that MiG had carried. Indeed MiGs cannons had big destructive force - 2 seconds burst was delivering almost 14 kg (30+ pounds) of rounds. Those cannons could penetrate any armor on any of US planes and also could destroy armored protective fuel tanks. One or a few rounds that were delivered to a foe often resulted if not an instant death of a plane but a crash during rtb or landing. In our practice those planes that did not went down at the territory of engagement were considered them as damaged.
Completely different from our system USAF used only subjective opinion of a pilot backed up by a film, that has recorded multiple hits of .50 caliber.
Its obvious that an opinion of a pilot that is not backed up by other proof is not enough to consider a kill been made. In those cases it is possible to increase kills up to the limit of your fantasy. Everybody knows it from long time ago. But what about the film that recorded hits, even multiple hits to an enemy plane?
The thing is that MiG was extremely durable against .50 cal fire. Bulletproof windshield and 20 mm armored chair that .50 could not penetrate even on normal (90 degree). VK-1 engine also showed itself as being very durable. Self sealant tanks could seal multiple holes of .50 cal and provide a possibility to rtb or continue engagement. Without doubt film has recorded multiple hits to an enemy plane and USAF considered this plane to be downed or destroyed. More than that if more than one fighters were engaging such plane they all could claim a kill.
Planes that received more than 10 holes were quickly repaired and send into action again. In one of heavy engagement one MiG has sustained 120 holes but successfully rtbd and after repaire was send back.
9. Another thing for you to consider is how many US pilots were rescued. I don't want to quote any numbers. I just want you to find your source numbers and take a look at it. Next thing look were was the majority of US fighters rescued. At the sea or land?? that is very important since it will guide you in one direction. Soviet MiGs could go wet. They had to stay dry while all US and UN (note a separation between US and UN (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) in trouble were trying to flee to the sea. See what you can dig up and if something please make a post.
10 Its bloody 1:30 am in here I better fly a sortie and go to bed.
P.S. Please no offence. If you feel so let me know and we will work it out. I think in any war there is no one that wins - we all lose, I hate war but I do admire my country and our planes: they are the BEST (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
[This message has been edited by Dmitry (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Edit - for some reason i have weird problems with this post - cant post it - waited 10 min - nothing then 2 post upped.
Nothing works like it supposed to:
Heres gun camera films from my earlier post:
(http://vfghosty.homestead.com/files/Image2.gif)
(http://vfghosty.homestead.com/files/Image3.gif)
BTW - while i was typing my post some more info came (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Whooho I am waiting for Boroda - hope you gonna have fun Pavel, also sorry to Funked for not keeping my promise up to date - as I was free b4r I am getting more and more pushed back to work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Well I will finish my translation - hope soon enough...
[This message has been edited by Dmitry (edited 03-20-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Dmitry (edited 03-20-2001).]
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lol just looked at the Dingers link - not bad site a few errors tho - Pepelyaev at that time was Captain. That as far as I went to look. But for pics we used the same site (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cya all tomorrow - <S>
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
[This message has been edited by Dmitry (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Didn't read the whole thread yet - just some facts before I go on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Widewing, 78 Sabres is a ridiculous number. Please remember the USAF definition of "combat losses". Any plane that felt down after crossing the front line is still (I mean at least up to the agression against Yugoslavia) counted as "non-combat loss". Any plane that "disappeared" without evidently being shot down is not counted too. So - you can multiply that 78 Sabres by 3 or even 4. The same with B-29s.
On the contrary, Soviet side counted any losses in the hostilities region as "combat loss". And in 1950-51 more then 40% of "combat losses" were not because of enemy fire, but because of "valyozhka" and other malfunctions.
BTW, if 64th IAK could count combat losses in American way - they should be 0 (zero) MiG-15s.
One interesting fact about B-29s: "Command Decision" bomber crew was credited with 5 MiG-15 kills. It's very funny, because no (_NO_) MiG-15s were ever lost from the B-29's gunners.
As to "8:1" kill ratio - I think that it's a lack of basic school education in arithmetics. 8 times 78 is equal to 624, that is about 2 times more then total Soviet losses.
BTW, Widewing, MiG-15s could survive after up to 120-150 12.7mm hits. Many times such planes returned to base and were returned to service in a matter of days.
And there was no such thing as "Soviet Cold War numbers". USSR admitted that Soviet pilots fought in Korea and published the scores ony in late 80s - eary 90s.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Dmitriy, Pepelyaev was a 196th IAP commander, started to fly in Korea being a Lt. Colonel.
Many 64th IAK victories (I'd prefer to say "victory" to English "kill" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) were confirmed by ground troops and wreks, while for obvious reasons UN pilots never could get such proofs.
Probably the most important reason to trust Soviet data is that they are completely free from propaganda issues. The data we get now was declassified in "perestroyka" ("destroyka") times and was never used by Soviet propaganda machine. Usualy it is based on highly classified reports that were used only by VVS. Even now many episodes of Soviet military participation in post-war conflicts is kept secret. In RU.AVIATION echo there is a discussion now about Yak-28 interceptors in Vietnam. There is an evidence that they were used in 1965, and shot down numerous B-52s, while even now there is still nothing about it in press.
I am sorry for sounding agressive sometimes, I really enjoy this discussion! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Its nice to see our "ex-soviet" brethern here. Its also nice to see civility on both sides. I served in the U.S. Army 1/75th Ranger Bat, 3/19th Inf (briefly) and Korea. I was in from 85-88. We were fed on the only good Red is a dead Red. Well... I met some Soviet Naval guys in down town Soul, Korea in 88 and I had an eye opening exper... the damn Reds where just like us. Damn... talk about ruining a guys out look on the world. They thought like us... liked the same stuff we did etc. I dont rem the names but they spoke some english and we spoke no "Russian". What we did speak was the universal SOLDIER lingo of lets get wasted and have some fun because tomarrow it might all be over. Now dont ge me wrong if we'd of gone to war each side was perfectly willing to end the other's existence but we learned to see that the other side was just like us.
Okies.. what I'm getting at is simple. WHat does it matter? Gov's will lie quickly to save moral and such in any conflict. History is often written and rewritten. No side will prove its account is correct... sooo play the game and enjoy an era where we see Russians, Ukrainian's and such mingling with Americans,Brits etc... its a coool, cooooool world that looks alot better than it did 20 or so years ago huh?
batdog
P.S. I cant spell... and it shows. Its like my flying... piss poor. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by batdog (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dinger:
Let's just calmly go down the list.
How about we go down this list instead:
1) Where's the evidence?
2) Where's the evidence?
3) Where's the evidence?
4) Where's the evidence (add nauseum)?
So far, all I have seen is talk, talk and more talk. Show us something concrete, like the wreckage, captured pilots, even dead pilots. Where are these aircraft and their pilots?
That web site you cite is more comedy than history. This knucklehead claims that 832 Sabres were destroyed (add to that the 170 lost to non-combat crashes and ground fire and you have 1,002 F-86 Sabres lost! IIRC, that's about 90% of the total ever deployed in the Korean war. Moreover, this guy acknowledges the assistance of Venik. Well, that tells me all I need to know. Venik was a regular over at rec.aviation.military. If Veeneck claimed that the sun would rise in the morning, I would go outside to witness it in person. That's how much I trust the word of our esteemed Venik.
Let's see something beyond the wild claims. Let's see some REAL evidence.
My regards,
Widewing
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Very interesting stuff guys. Glad to see everybody keeping it "civil". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If this gets too off topic for the Aces High forum feel free to continue it here. (http://forums.targetware.net/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Q+|AMP|+A+with+Mike+|APO|Funked|APO|+Waltz&number=14) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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lol, this is funny...
Why would the Soviets do any better in the air in Korea than WWII?
I guess the fact that USSR lost 32,000 aircraft on the Eastern front while the Germans only lost 4,000 is B.S. too?
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With all respect, a nugatory response cannot further discussion.
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Why not give the Soviets some benefit of the doubt?
Consider this: the best pilots VVS had to offer were sent to Korea. We know Kozhedub, the highest scoring allied ace of WWII, was there. Many other pilots who had many years of flying and fighting and killing in their log books were in Korea. Were they that bad? Were their tactics and strategy so faulty that American pilots enjoyed virtual invulnerability over the MiG Alley despite fighting far behind enemy lines in evenly matched machines?
If I didn't look at the numbers and was asked for an opinion on the probable statistics, I'd say both air forces should've done equally well give or take a few. I find it extremally hard to believe that the reality was so far off.
As for the 32000 planes vs. 4000 in WWII (Nath-BDP's post), I would like to point out that in the first week of the war, with German blitz underway, over 50%!! of VVS inventory was destroyed on the ground or captured. It wasn't uncommon in July of 1941 for the Soviet troops to be strafed on the roads by German-piloted Yaks and MiGs. I believe, German pilots refused to fly captured I-16s, which Germans considered antiquated. And I-16 (by the way, when will we get it in the game?! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), which was clearly inferior to anything Germans put up in the air, comprised the majority of VVS fighters until about autumn of 1942 (surprisingly, Soviet pilots didn't do that bad with it!). If you want a fair statistics on the performance of Soviet pilots vs. German pilots, take statistics for just a year 1943, when Germans weren't weak yet, and VVS had already recovered from the initail blow of 1941.
Spinoza
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Spinoza, what about the 16:1 record of the Finnish Air Force against the Russians during the Winter War? Or the 32:1 ratio using Brewsters, MS406's and Fiat G50s at the beginning of the Continuation War? Or how about the 25:1 ratio they achieved in the Bf109s they got? I suppose they exaggerated also? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Raubvogel
LuftJдgerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Widewing I want to see proof also. Its too bad but looks like 90% of info is still classified. We are not getting a clear picture here. As i said before I dont believe numbers - from neither side - nor US or Soviet. I am a little suprise that it seems that you do.
Living in a former Soviet and specially being born there will definetly teach you one trick - dont believe what it said on a book or newspaper. If you want to get the picture of what is going on read in between the lines. It works like 99% of the time. Called logic also. Anyway there is issues like combat and non-combat losses - they dont matter to me, but I can quote myself:
Another thing for you to consider is how many US pilots were rescued. I don't want to quote any numbers. I just want you to find your source numbers and take a look at it. Next thing look were was the majority of US fighters rescued. At the sea or land
By studying how many US pilots were rescued and more importantly WHERE you can guestimate the number of planes that had suffered crical damage and had to ditch or even eject. Also it is important because US rescue service was outstanding - specially at sea. They didnt do that much when it came to the rescue operation on enemy territory. Thus you can add number X of planes that were down at sea and friendly territory number Y that were down behind 38 parralel and never were rescued.
It is difficult for me to make the research of this kind and I hate to admit that I dont have time for it/ I would be extremly glad if you can post some numbers in here.
As for gun camera films.... As I also said before and repeted by Boroda - MiGs could take numerus hits of .50 and still perform or at least being able to rtb. I dont think that .50 cal gun film can be a much of a proof when it comes to MiG-15bis. Lots of MiG pilots brought their planes shreded by Colt Browning safely home.
Can add some more but wont (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Will save it for the next day.
<S> all and thanx for keeping this thread so civilized...
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Raubvogel, great numbers... are they real? Have the proof?.. Same as always. Each propaganda machine has its own statistics... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Dinger:
With all respect, a nugatory response cannot further discussion.
Is this your way of stating that you have no evidence to support the claim of 1,002 Sabres destroyed by MiGs? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You see, when push comes to shove, claims must be supported by more than blather. Wishful thinking or hope-against-hope nationalism is understandable. I have no problem with someone being proud of their heritage. It's healthy. However, I do question whether they have an open mind when they accept unsupportable claims that fly in the face of the undisguised public record.
The USAF says they lost 78 Sabres in air to air combat.
The Communists (Soviets and company) claim that they shot down 1,002 in air to air combat.
You can go the Maxwell AFB and examine USAF records, right on down to squadron level data. I assure you that every aircraft that was in service is fully documented as to its final disposition. Moreover, make the claim of 1,002 lost Sabres to any F-86 pilot or ground crew and ask them what they think. I suggest that you not wait for the answer if you don't have a thick skin.
Evidence Dinger, where's the evidence? Without some real evidence, your argument is already lost.
As I have said before, the USAF claims are not out of line with the actual Soviet loss/victory ratio in WWII.
I wonder which Soviet squadron commander would notify Moscow that they had been receiving a beating at the hands of the USAF
Sabres. How long do you think this commander would avoid the gulag had he told the truth?
Am I implying that on some level, the Soviet fighter command fabricated its kill totals?
You're damn right I am. Does anyone actually believe that there was one senior officer who would tell Stalin that they were being beat like a drum? Not an ice cube's chance in hell that this ever happened. It would mean the end of his life as he knew it. Doesn't that make more sense than 1,002 Sabres shot down? It certainly offers a hell of a lot more plausibility than those wild-ass numbers presented on that web site you offered.
Let's consider the reliability of Soviet claims. Between November 19, 1942 and February 2, 1943 (Stalingrad campaign), the VVS claimed to have destroyed just over 3,000 (3,022) Luftwaffe aircraft. German losses, as seen in their records indicates that 691 aircraft were actually lost during this same period. What happened to the other 2,331 phantom aircraft? I'll wager they're hidden away with 924 Sabre apparitions. How about Kursk? The VVS claimed over 1,500 German aircraft shot down. This is remarkable when you consider that the Luftwaffe had no more than 1,900 combat aircraft assembled on the entire eastern front. The Soviets admitted losing around 1,000 aircraft, but the Luftwaffe claimed somehwere in the area of 1,300. Actual German losses did not exceed 450, with many of these being lost to triple A. Again, we have anywhere between 1,000 and 1,200 phantom aircraft shot down by the VVS. Finally, let's have a look at the Nomonhan incident of 1939. The Soviets claimed that they shot down 654 Japanese aircraft. However, Japanese records show that just 162 were lost to ALL CAUSES. So, here we have at least another 500 mystery aircraft shot down and credited.
Does anyone seriously think that the Soviets changed their ways between the middle of 1945 and the middle of 1950? Clearly, the Soviets have established a pattern of grossly exaggerating their air to air victories. 425% overclaiming at Stalingrad. 335% at Kursk. 402% in Manchuria. Let's look at the total of USAF Sabres lost to ALL CAUSES. 78 air to air, 31 to triple A, and 140 to non-combat accidents. Now, let's assume that half of those accidents were the direct result of battle damage sustained with MiGs. Add those to the 78. 70 + 78 = 148. Now I will multiply that figure by the worst overclaiming ratio established earlier. 148 x 425% = 629. Gee, that's mighty close to the 650 figure cited by Dmitry. With this in mind, perhaps we can come to a reasonable crossroad. 148 Sabres lost as a result of combat with MiGs. It seems reasonable to state that the Chinese and N. Koreans probably accounted for 30 of these. So, that leaves 118 Sabres shot down by Soviet pilots. Suppose we reduce the MiG claim total by 30%, which is certainly too generous as this is well above typical American overclaiming habit. 792 - 30% = 554 MiGs claimed. Figure half of those were Chinese and North Korean. That leaves 277 Soviet MiGs. 277/118 = 2.35 to 1 in favor of the USAF flown Sabres over the Soviet flown MiGs. Can everyone live with that estimate?
It's a damn sight better than 11 to 1 as claimed by the USAF.
God knows, I wouldn't want to anger my newly made friends in the Former USSR. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Here's a photo consisting of three frames of gun camera film of one of the MiGs clobbered by the F9Fs mentioned throughout this thread. It's from the Naval Aviation Museum web site. This is the one seen going down trailing heavy smoke. Doesn't look like he's going to make it home.
The text accompanying the photos is as follows:
"On 18 November 1952, three F9F-5 Panthers of VF-781 off the carrier USS Oriskany (CVA-34) intercepted seven Soviet MiG-15 fighters while operating 100 miles from the giant Russian naval bases at Vladivostok. In one of the epic small engagements between the Soviet Union and United States during the Cold War, the outgunned Navy fighters shot down at least two enemy "bandits" and damaged a third. In this photograph, a Soviet MiG-15 trails smoke after being hit by 20-millimeter cannon fire."
(http://www.naval-air.org/Library/Korea/MiG-15_kill.JPG)
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-20-2001).]
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No, widewing, all I was saying is that my goal never was to prove that 1002 Sabres were shot down; that's just the straw man you've constructed. Point to one place where I make that ridiculous claim. If my response to your claim is outright ignored and you continue to misconstrue my position (hence the nugatory response), then we cannot have a discussion.
BTW, if you want the Oriskany AAR, I've got it.
[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-20-2001).]
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Here is the modern Russian view on those kill ratios.
"Soviet Aces" by Nikolay Bodrikhin, general editing: Lt Col P.I. Muravyev (42 kills total, 3 in Karelian War, 39 in 2nd Great Patriotic War), Moscow, 1998, ISBN 5-89883-001-4
From the Foreword
"
...
The rules of counting shot down enemy aircraft were always extremely strict
in VVS RKKA. Aviation Marshal S.I.Rudenko mentioned in his memoirs that at the beginning
of the war even the plate with the factory number from the enemy aircraft engine was required as confirmation. In the vast majority of cases the written documents from the ground troops about the exact position of the crash site were required. The dispatcher functions were assigned to officers of ground control stations located in the advance positions of ground troops. It was much harder for the "free hunters" who got their victories hundreds of kilometers behind the frontline. Usually their victories were not counted. The victory was counted only if the pilot indicated the coordinates of the crash site and the remnants of the enemy aircraft were found there by ground troops. The witness accounts and guncamera footage were never enough grounds for counting a victory - only the wrecks of the shot down aircraft.
...
The book uses materials of Central Archive of Ministry of Defense (TsAMO), Russian State archive of cinema-photo-documents, photo libraries of ITAR-TASS, Central museum of Armed Forces, Museum of VVS in Monino. With the feeling of pride and gratitude I am calling out the names of Soviet fighter-pilots who read fragments of the manuscript and made corrections:
I.N. Kozhedub, K.A. Yevstigneev, V.D. Lavrinenkov, N.M. Skomorokhov, F.F. Arkhipenko, N.A. Arkhipov, G.A. Bayevsky, P.V. Bazanov, V.F. Bashkirov, I.M. Berezutsky, P.M. Baykov, N.V. Buryak, L.A. Bykovets, P.F. Gavrilin, G.G. Golubev, S.D. Gorelov, A.A. Grachev, V.I. Davidkov, V.S. Yeliseev, A.S. Zakalyuk, L.N. Ivanov, V.P. Ivanov, A.F. Kovachevich, V.S. Levitan, A.S. Makarov, V.V. Maslov, I.V. Maslov, E.P. Mel'nikov, P.I. Muravyev, G.D. Onufrienko, D.P. Os'kin, E.G. Pepelyaev, M.G. Petrov, P.A. Pologov, B.M. Rivkin, D.A. Samoylov, A.P. Silantyev, O.N. Smirnov, A.P. Smorchkov, N.L. Trofimov, I.V. Fedorov, N.V. Khudyakov, I.I. Tsapov, A.E. Shvarev, P.F. Shevelev, A.D. Yakimenko, P.G. Yakubovsky.
Important information was given by the widows of the famous aces: V.N. Kozhedub, M.K. Pokryshkina, N.I. Gulaeva, M.I. Yevstigneeva, M.I. Markova. Their help in preparation of this edition was invaluable.
Col (Ret) V.F. Valuysky did a huge amount of technical work in the archives of TsAMO that was reflected in the published materials.
"
Excerpts of chapter summaries:
The Red fighters in China
In Chinese-Japanese War the Soviet pilots participated at the side of China.
The Soviet Union delivered to China 985 airplanes - fighters and bombers. The air combats
were nevertheless intense and nearly 200 member of flying staff were killed in action.
The most succesful Soviet fighter pilots in China were: Peter Kozachenko (11 victories),
Alexey Blagoveschensky (8 plus 2 shared), Konstantin Kokkinaki (7), Anton Gubenko (7).
The aerial combat on Khalkhin-Gol
In June of 1938, in a short period, VVS RKKA created the air supremacy in the battle on
Khalkhin-Gol. The Red Army was thus able to stop the Japanese aggression on Mongolia
and smash the ground forces of Japan. The fighters played a dominant role in the air war
on Khalkhin-Gol.
In accordance with the Soviet data in the battle of Khalkhin-Gol 589 Japanese
aircraft were shot down, 57 were destroyed on the ground. The war losses of the Red Army
Air Force were 207 aircraft.
The most successful Soviet fighters on Khalkhin-GOl were Nikolay Zherdev (11 victories), Mitrofan Noga (9 personal and 2 shared victories), Victor Rakhov (8 personal and 6 shared victories), Stepan Danilov (8 victories), Anton Yakimenko (7 victories).
The battle on Karelian Isthmus
In accordance with the Soviet data the Finnish side lost 362 aircraft, the losses of the Soviet Union were 261 aircraft. But already in 1940 the Finnish VVS had 300 aircraft that
were mainly supplied by Britain and France.
The highest scoring aces of the Finnish campaign were Alexander Bulaev (9 in this conflict, 24 total) and Vasily Efremov (7 in this conflict, 19 total).
The aces of the Great Patriotic War
At the beginning of invasion of the Soviet Union, German fighter pilots knew the intoxicating feeling of air supremacy. In the first week of teh assault almost 3000 Soviet aircraft of all types were destroyed. Only after Stalingrad, in heavy battles at Kursk,
air supremacy was won by Soviet fighters.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to compare the real scores of Luftwaffe and Soviet
aces. Mathematically, from the point of view of the theory of probabilities, it is absolutely clear that the huge scores of the German aces had mostly purposes of propaganda and political roots.
Soviet war time losses were 106400 aircraft including all types of the planes. But only 46100 of them were combat losses (shot down in aerial combat, by flak, destroyed on the ground). Germany lost 77000 aircraft in the war with the Soviet Union (data of the Sviet General Staff).
Many of the best Soviet aces were never shot down. Among the first 20 aces, the following were never shot down: I.Kozhedyb, K.Evstigneev, A.Vorozheykin, A.Koldunov, N.Skomorokhov, V.Bobrov, A.Reshetiv, S.Morgunov, P.Muravyev, A.Yakimenko. At the same time many German aces were shot down and killed on the Eastern front. The most famous were Otto Kittel and Anton Hafner. Such aces as Eric Hartman, Gerhard Barkhorn, Gunter Rall, Heinz Bar, Anton Nakl and Eric Rudorffer were shot down by Soviet fighters. Some of them were downed several times.
The Soviet aces of the jet era
The 3 Yaks shot down by F-82s on June 27, 1950 were the first of around 2000 aircraft to be shot down in the three years of the war in Korea. In July USAAF started their favorite "battle work" - "the carpet" bombing.
In October 1950 the first Soviet fighter aviation regiments from 64th aviation corps arrived to the North-East China.
On 3rd of November the first all-jet battle took place. The Soviet fighters reported one F-80 shot down. Americans noted that "one of the MiGs flipped over and fell out of the sky". They decided it was a victory, but all MiGs returned to their base in Antung.
The best fighter regiments in Korea were 196 and 17 (each of them have 108 victories) and 176th Guards fighter regiment (107 victories). Eventually, according to Soviet data 1377 USAF aircraft went down in Korea. The losses of 840 enemy aircraft were verified by ground teams - reports of examination of crash sites were written and complemented by parts of the shot down aircraft together with their factory numbers. The losses of the Soviet Air Force were 335 MiGs and totally (including aircraft piloted by Chinese and Koreans) 566 MiGs. One must note that the air war in 1950-1953 took place primarily over the territory of North Korea, where, consequently, the vast majority of shot down aircraft crashed. So the reports of Soviet pilots had material support (wreckage), while the americans were only left with guncamera footage. Nevertheless, initially, apparently under impression of lessons given, the americans were relatively objective and in serious publications estimated their losses at 2000 aircraft and those of their enemy at 1000. For example on the "black Thursday", April 12 1951, MiGs terminated the american raid on the Yaludzyan hydroelectric powerplant and shot down 10 B-29s not counting the escort fighters. 100 parachutes of bailed out crews of american planes was a phantasmagoric sight. Later, inspired by the apologetics of Luftwaffe, in popular literature, they reversed the loss figures in several times, calling all "U-2s", "Yaks", and "Las" as MiGs. One also has to note that the high command prohibited "illegal" pilots (i.e. Soviet) to fly farther than 100km to the south of the 38th parallel and fly over the sea. The aircraft shot down outside of the North Korean territory were not counted.
The Soviet highest scoring ace in Korea were N.Sutyagin (21 personal plus 2 shared) and E.Pepelyaev (20 personal victories). A.Smortchkov scored 15 victories, L.Schukin and A. Os'kin scored 15 each too.
The names of 50 jet aces who scored more than 5 victories in Korea are known today.
What some Soviet aces think of their scores:
Excerpt from the interview of I.Ye.Fedorov (chief test pilot of the Lavochkin design bureau, first Soviet pilot to break the speed of sound in the La-176, CO of 157th fighter regiment and later 273rd fighter division in GPW) published in "Krylya Rodiny" magazine, issue 7, 2000:
"
...
Q: Ivan Yevgrafovich, how many personal kills do you have ?
A: Arithmetic is simple and accurate. So write it down without any doubts: in Spain I shot down 24 aircraft, in China - 2, in Finnish war - 4, in Great Patriotic war - 96, in Korea - 7. So the total is 135 shot down.
Q: But officially you are credited only with 49 personal kills and 47 shared ??
A: You can ask any ace and he will tell you a number that will be very different from the official one. And the thing is that I couldn't get confirmation for any kills that crashed over the frontline.
...
"
http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/part2.htm (http://www.airforce.ru/awm/ivanov/part2.htm)
"On August 20th (1952) the 726th regiment participated in a difficult fight with "Thunderjets" escorted by "Sabres" in which Nikolay Ivanov got his third victory, so to speak. Namely, "so to speak". He fired at short range and a large aspect angle, so the moment of the damage was not registered by the guncamera. The victory was confirmed by radio-intercept that heard the report of the american pilot about his ejection. The enemy was shot down by him personally, but it was not counted for him. This could only be explained if to consider that a pilot received 1500 rubles for a kill. The division HQ simply didn't risk to "waste" the "people's" 1500 without having required documentation for it...."
".. When I was taking off - I kept one hand on the ejector seat. Dropped the fuel tanks at the take-off run. I was never taught this, never talked about it, but when I was shouted at: "You are attacked!" - and I was about to roll up and get into the air I couldn't stop, - I would crash into the hills, - so I pressed the tank's release button. Probably that's what helped me. Those who were on the ground told me later that my take off made a strong impression on them. I don't know... it didn't make an impression on me.
Everything went OK. Only one round hit my plane and the wingman had no holes at all. On that day the cloudiness was of 5th-6th grade. I punctured the clouds and a pair of "Sabres" flies fast over me, going in direction of the gulf. And I shot down one, for certain. This was over the airbase and everyone saw it.
I landed and got out of the plane, the anger still boils in me, and here Ivan Yevdokimovich Godin runs up to me. Started hugging me, - you are a hero etc. Then the superiors asked me what is better for me, the next rank or the order of Lenin. Of course, I said: "Both the rank and Lenin". And very soon, the next day, the chief of the political department calls me: "Major Ivanov!" - I continue sitting as I was a Captain and he: "Ivanov, - it's you who is Major Ivanov".
But that "Sabre" was not counted as shot down! The pilot was firing against the sun and the "Sabre" crashed into the Korean gulf. Only the sun is on the footage and the material clues sank to the bottom. As the document of 133rd IAD says - the fall of the shot down "Sabre" was observed practically by the whole Antung - from pilots and mechanics to sentry soldiers. Apparently, just like it was on the 20th, the monetary renumeration played its role. It's nothing that I shot it down, that the whole airbase saw it. As the chief said: socialism is accounting; no material clues - no money and no victory in addition to that."
Pokryshkin claims an additional 20 victories that were not credited to him in the beginning period of the war. He mentions that in his memoirs. e.g. "In the skies of the war" or "Test yourself in combat" (available in Russian in electronic format at http://www.aviation.ru/contrib/Andrey_Platonov/Memoirs/Pokryshkin.htm (http://www.aviation.ru/contrib/Andrey_Platonov/Memoirs/Pokryshkin.htm) ).
F.F. Arkhipenko in his "Notes of figher pilot" (Moscow, 1999, ISBN 5-900824-02-0) mentions (p. 135):
"By the end of the war I have accumulated ... 44 shot down aircraft: 30 personally shot down, 10 personally shot down in the Belgorod area, but not credited to me, and 4 shared with my wingman (Footnote: according to the documents of 205th IAD in TsAMO, F.F. Arkhipenko is credited with 32 personal victories)."
etc. these are just some I recalled.
http://aces.boom.ru/all1/all1.htm (http://aces.boom.ru/all1/all1.htm)
gives the statstics of the victories by Soviet aces (official vs claimed by pilots)
One can definitely see that the Soviet HQs were not easy to convince of victories.
BTW, I.Ye. Fedorov is apparently the Soviet pilot whom Hartman mentioned in "Blonde knight" - the one with over 80 kills and not liked by the party officials. Fedorov indeed was not disciplined at all based on what I read about him. No wonder superiors "kept him down".
For those interested in getting proofs and verifying information here are addresses of the archives:
Russian State Military Archive (Russian acronym: RGVA)
125884, Moscow, Admiral Makarov St, 29
Russian Federation
Central Archive of Ministry of Defense of Russian Federation (Russian acronym: TsAMO SSSR/RF)
142113, Moscow district, city of Podol'sk, Varshavskoye highway, 9A
Russian Federation
[This message has been edited by Wisk-=VF-101=- (edited 03-21-2001).]
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Hi Widewing:
I am looking at that film you gave- frankly I don't see how you can construe any evidence from that. You are lloking at a large plume of whitish smoke from a bandit about 600+ yards away (Probable range? looks about right- defintely over 400 going by general scale of circle expanded and relative Mig size) passing at 90 degrees.
Did this Mig make it home? If I had to guess I would say very much yes. That is probably unignited fuel and that Mig is headed back home ASAP with emergency clearence. It would definitly NOT be a conclusive kill gunfilm.
BTW you have referred to this engagement several times and I am not sure why- from the AAR it's incredibly obvious that those F9F pilots took advantage of a good position to fire upon the two Migs, getting one confirmed kill and one damage then using a wingman covering strategy to disengage from 2 other Migs- not entirely succesfull as one still got a rudder strike. As for their claims I would say it's conjecture but extremely unlikely the other Migs they smoked went down- .50 cal can smoke up a mig but killing it takes more than that. These guys just took advantage of an opportunity then escaped- hardly the heroics you paint them as and definitly not conclusive of anything in concern to the planes.
-
Also- the last time you brought up VVS kill claims you made these same errors in USSR kill statistics. This is not even funny Widewing- it's unfairly biased using an improper understanding. VVS kill claims are very accurate if read correctly and nowhere near as inaccurate as you portray.
Kills had to be confirmed by the following:
A: Gun camera film
B: Ground wreckage
C: Ground verification
D: Flight leader verification
USSR planes after 1942 all had gun cameras- the comment about Mig's not is silly. Obtaining it is much harder than US as these types of material have never been released in the Former Soviet Union.
The misunderstanding you seem to have is that when more than one person was involved in an engagement VVS did not give out "partial" kills like US or British did. Instead these are referred to as "group kills" and are seperated from the individual kills. Looking at Stalins Falcons (A record of all kills claimed by soviet pilots listing what was claimed and who claimed it and in what) shows that typical pilots would average an almost 2 to 1 ratio of group kills to individual ones. Only in WESTERN sources was this misunderstood to mean all kills were individual ones. Using this to understand the system most VVS engagements were underreporting kills by 5% often leading to propoganda exagerrating for large engagements to boost morale. The actual numbers we have now shows the VVS knew damn well what they were shooting down and were concerned as hell.
In regards to Korea- I don't know enough about it, Thats why I asked about this in the first place (and what a can of worms I opened!). But it seems there are a few good points you are ignoring.
78 Planes in A2A kills is, as pointed out, extremely unrealistic. I agree someone was fudging here and with that many planes actually going down across the whole engagement it strikes me as probable the US was not counting planes that ditched in the sea or were unaccounted for and attributed to AAA fire. Do you have any numbers on F-86's lost to AAA fire Widewing? If it's a porportionally unrealistic number its probably suspicous.
As for news etc etc as evidence. Bah. C'mon Widewing- you know damn well that it took until Vietnam before news sources could gain enough access to military to question outright lies. Fudging kill to loss records would have been easy as hell during Korea due to the nature of the conflict and the touchy nature of relations at home with such a costly ground war. They couldn't cover up dead bodies but since planes usually ditched in the ocean covering wrecks wouldn't have been too hard.
I'm sorry if I seem to harsh here Widewing- UBB boards are often hard to express things properly on and believe me, I have great respect for you and value what you say. But looking at your previous posts I am inclined to believe you have a strong Anti-Communist background I have met in many servicemen from that era. I truly hope you can set that bias aside and help provide information on this topic that would be interesting and educational and respect that inormation coming from the former USSR can be of value too in understanding both sides of the conflict.
-
Sorry, looks like I missed something, but where did this "1008 Sabres" come from?
Widewing, I have a book that describes all 64th IAK engagements until August, 1951. Could be nice if you'll give me some USAF info on Sabre pilots shooting down MiGs in that period of time, including dates, locations and times. Could be great to compare two points of view. Even if you have some descriptions of engagements theat didn't result in any kills - it still will be very interesting.
Regarding overclaiming kills: Japanese scores against US aircrafts in the Pacific that we know now were divided by 3 or 4 by American historians. While Japanese kill numbers at Khalknin-Gol were not - some Japanese pilots claim 50+ kills there. The same thing with German scores in WWII - why Tolliver and Constable didn't make some realistic number out of Hartmann's ridiculous 352 kills? OTOH - Americans admitted that their confirmation procedure was very unreliable, but spaking about Korean war scores they never mention it.
I have a strong feeling that this thread should belong to another UBB, but HTC board is more popular now and it's very nice to meet opponents like Widewing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
Originally posted by Boroda:
...Widewing, I have a book that describes all 64th IAK engagements until August, 1951...
Boroda,
Mind if I aks for the name of the bookand where can I get it? I don't doubt what you are saying, I'm simply interested in getting a copy of the book for myself.
mx22
-
V. P. Naboka, "NATO hawks in gunsights of Stalin's falcons (Soviet pilots protecting the sky of China and North Korea) [1950-1951]", Krasnodar, "Soviet Kuban", 1999. ISBN 5-7221-0253-9
Only 3000 copies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I ran across this book on Moscow Airshow in August, 1999. Never saw it in bookstores (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Author says it is only the first part, other books OTW.
I want to find the author - it's the most professional air combat description I have ever read.
The title is "politicaly-incorrect" because it was printed during NATO agression in Yugoslavia.
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
interesting...BUT WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH ACESHIGH???? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I want the history of WW2 not koria!
migs and sabres????
ok so my favourite jet of the 50's era was the sabre (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) but im here for WW2 stuff...mmm nice silver,shiney....All i want to read about is LW stuff!....mmmm silver,shiney,fast.....
oh i give up, carry on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
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Let's see something beyond the wild claims. Let's see some REAL evidence.
With deepest respect Widewing - let's see yours? You made a claim about 8:1 kill ratio (OK, you didn't but you seem to rely on it's reliability) yet as evidence all you produced so far was a shot of a MiG trailing unidentified vapour. There's no hits, no visible damage... Now multiply that by ~800 MiGs you say that were shot down. I'm watching all there's on Sky Wings channel and the amount of gun camera footage is, to say the least, scarce... The same footage is being shown over and over again while according to sources you quote there bound to be an absolute shedload of film showing MiGs being blown to bits? Where is it?
Nath - may I just remind you that inspite of obvious German supremacy in just about everything there is it was uneducated/unrefined Ivans who marched all the way from Moscow, through Eastern Europe and to Berlin. I guess I need to apologize on their behalf for not recognising their mistake and bending over like most of so called "civilised" world did at the time...
The Winter war was an exercise to provide Leningrad with buffer zone. Soviet army went into Finland and took required territory ignoring the resistance put up by Finns. I've read a book by the most decorated Finnish ace - he described several engagemenmts where it was clear that Soviet pilots were not seasoned veterans, quite the contrary. Finns fought with skill resulting in high K/D ratios. I16s and I153s were not that different from Fokkers and Brewsters - pilot skill and dedication pushed the results to where they were.
...
"unbiased analysis by Western historians"? What a joke: History channel showing a program about Kursk; a elderly German guy is telling how much better in design/built quality Panther and Tiger tanks were compare to crude T34s; it's a real shame that even though Hitler sent them to spearhead German attack not a single machine made it into battle - all broke down on the way...
-
Hmm, how many other Russian-speaking AH pilots will join this thread? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, I am OCRing an above-mentioned book right now.
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
alexei, I could get my hands on this book if you're interested.
Author:
Naboka, V. P. (Vitalii Petrovich)
Title:
Natovskie iastreby v pritsele stalinskikh sokolov : sovetskie letchiki na zashchite neba Kitaia i Korei,
1950-1951 / V.P. Naboka.
Published:
Krasnodar : Sov. kuban', 1999.
Physical Details:
236 p. : ill., maps ; 20 cm.
Version:
Library of Congress
Cover Title:
Sovetskie lлtchiki na zashchite neba Kitaia i Korei, 1950-1951.
Subjects:
Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Soviet.
LC Call Number:
DS920.2.S65 N33 1999
LCCN:
00-351979
ISBN:
5-7221-0253-9
Record ID:
DCLC00351979-B
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You know, they only real accurate way to compare kills, is to ignore the victory claims and look at the losses recorded by each side. These are far more accurate for a number of reasons: If one of your own planes doesn't return to base it's real obvious, You don't want to fudge this figure low because then you aren't going to get the replacements you need, Families start making noise when the Air Force says "What are you talking about, we never heard of that guy". So here's the recorded losses for each side:
According to Wisk's info, that's 566 MiGs(335 of which were Soviet) lost to all causes.
According to Widewing's info, that's 249 Sabres lost to all causes.
Given that a large percentage of the F-86's were lost to accidents or anti-aircraft, and that they were operating at long range over enemy territory, on top of the over 2:1 loss ratio, it's pretty obvious who was winning this fight.
Sable
352nd FG
-
Dinger,
Do they allow to make photocopies of books in the Library of Congress? If so, I would really apreciate you making copies for me (I won't mind paying for that), but I really doubt that it's true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
mx22
Originally posted by Dinger:
alexei, I could get my hands on this book if you're interested.
Author:
Naboka, V. P. (Vitalii Petrovich)
Title:
Natovskie iastreby v pritsele stalinskikh sokolov : sovetskie letchiki na zashchite neba Kitaia i Korei,
1950-1951 / V.P. Naboka.
Published:
Krasnodar : Sov. kuban', 1999.
Physical Details:
236 p. : ill., maps ; 20 cm.
Version:
Library of Congress
Cover Title:
Sovetskie lлtchiki na zashchite neba Kitaia i Korei, 1950-1951.
Subjects:
Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Soviet.
LC Call Number:
DS920.2.S65 N33 1999
LCCN:
00-351979
ISBN:
5-7221-0253-9
Record ID:
DCLC00351979-B
-
its getting interesting and even yet if possible more interesting. One thing I dont understand is why you Widewing ignoring my request? It is more or less simple I think. There are should be records of rescue operations I am sure of it. If so and I am correct than please post the number of rescued pilots in Korea and whats more important is where they have been rescued. That number whould speak for itself.
If for some reason you cant pull that kind of reasearch please let me know
<S>
BTW Boroda chity sources I got - it said Pepelyaev was Captain and then promoted to rank of LtCol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) ohh well bad not to be at home (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
------------------
Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Alexei, I can file an ILL request for the book and see if I can some library to send it to me. Then I walk down to the copy shop. I'll put it on my to-do list.
-
Originally posted by Wisk:
The battle on Karelian Isthmus
In accordance with the Soviet data the Finnish side lost 362 aircraft, the losses of the
Soviet Union were 261 aircraft. But already in 1940 the Finnish VVS had 300 aircraft that
were mainly supplied by Britain and France.
Those numbers are false. Finland purchased or had donated no more than 134 planes during the Winter War. Only 93 of these were fighters that saw action. At their peak strength, the FAF had only 191 aircraft total, and that includes reconnaisance and cargo aircraft.
For the Winter War, the FAF had 190 confirmed kills which included 143 bombers, 37 fighters and 10 recon planes. Those are just the kills they confirmed.There were another 100 listed as probable. Which comes pretty close to your figure of 261 Soviet losses. The FAF lost 62 aircraft. These were 11 Fokker DXXIs, 17 Gladiators, 7 Fokker C Xs, 5 Blackburn Ripons, and 12 Blenheims. 47 of these losses were due to Soviet fire. 35 were downed by fighters, 8 by AA fire, and 4 for unknown reasons. The 62 also includes aircraft lost in transit.
So you're claiming that the Soviet Union shot down the entire Finnish Air Force twice during the Winter War of 1940? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
------------------
Raubvogel
LuftJдgerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
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All of this Russian openess has my heart a fluttering!
How about records from the 1967 and 1973 Arab-Israeli wars...got any Soviet kill numbers from those conflicts? How many Israeli fighters did the Soviets shoot down?
Just curious.
Andy
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Dinger, it's great! Are there any other books by the same author?
ftp://sky.chph.ras.ru/pub/uncheck/naboka.rtf
It's first 50 pages in Cyrillic RTF.
Hope Dmitry, Wisk and Lynx will enjoy it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have to go home now, hope to finish it before weekend.
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
-
Originally posted by -lynx-:
Let's see something beyond the wild claims. Let's see some REAL evidence.
With deepest respect Widewing - let's see yours? You made a claim about 8:1 kill ratio (OK, you didn't but you seem to rely on it's reliability) yet as evidence all you produced so far was a shot of a MiG trailing unidentified vapour. There's no hits, no visible damage... [/B]
I'm somewhat surprised that you would ask for evidence when the USAF never locked away its combat reports in a vault marked "SECRET" like the Soviets did. There are dozens of well researched books available in libraries and book stores that recount the events over the skies of Korea. Anyone with the desire can travel to Maxwell AFB and spend days, even weeks reviewing combat reports. There is no lack of documentation. I will grant you that most on this BBs do not ready access to most of this material, but that's not my problem, is it?
Fortunately, the USAF has digitized some of their publications and put them on a server where anyone can access them. Go to: http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/online/migalleysfbld.htm (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/online/migalleysfbld.htm) and read the 'official condensed history of the FEAF over Korea.
Then, go to http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/online/WithinLimits.pdf (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/online/WithinLimits.pdf) and read this document.
These are both produced by the USAF's history unit and represent the latest data on hand.
By the way, if a T-34, even a T-34/85, faced off with a Panther straight up, the T-34 is toast.
My regards,
Widewing
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Sable, you forget that F-86 was not hte only UN plane in Korea. Please add F-51, F-82, F-80, F-84, Panther, Meteor, RB-45, B-29 and other plane types that 64th IAK had pleasure to shoot down.
Also please note that MiGs never have an opportunity to vulch Sabres. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Sorry Boroda, that's the only book by that author in this country. Here's some other titles that the same subject heading brings up: two short texts (ca. 70 pages), and a schiffer pubs history.
Author:
Abakumov, B. S.
Title:
V nebe Severnoi Korei / B.S. Abakumov.
Published:
[Kursk : Raduga, 1997].
Physical Details:
71 p. : ill. ; 21 cm.
Version:
Location:
CSt-H, HOOVER, STACKS
Call No.:
DS919.7 .S65 A22 1997
Cover Title:
Neizvestnaia voina.
Subjects:
Korean War, 1950-1953--Participation, Russian.
Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Russian.
LC Call Number:
DS909.7.S65 A2 1997
LCCN:
99-178060
Record ID:
CSUXA4010982-B
— Record 2 —
Author:
Gagin, V.
Title:
Vozdushnaia voina v Koree : 1950-1953 g.g. / V.V. Gagin.
Published:
Voronezh : Poligraf, 1997.
Physical Details:
64 p. : ill. (some col.), map ; 29 cm.
Version:
Location:
NjP, anxa
Call No.:
DS919.7.S65 G34 1997
Subjects:
Korean War, 1950-1953--Participation, Soviet.
Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Soviet.
Korean War, 1950-1953--Personal narratives, Soviet.
Airmen--Soviet Union--Biography.
LC Call Number:
DS919.7.S65 G34 1997
LCCN:
98-109140
ISBN:
5-221-00010-5
Stock Number:
ATA 2000 41
Record ID:
NJPGV3227401-B
— Record 4 —
Author:
Seidl, Hans D.
Title:
Stalin's eagles : an illustrated study of the Soviet aces of World War II and Korea / Hans D. Seidl ;
forewords by Gьnther Rall & Vitalij Popkov.
Published:
Atglen, PA : Schiffer Pub., c1998.
Physical Details:
368 p. : col. ill. ; 31 cm.
Version:
Location:
MH, Harvard Depository
Call No.:
UG626 .S45 1998 F
Other Information:
Consult Circ. Desk for HNMB3D
Series:
Schiffer military history.
Subjects:
Soviet Union. Raboche-Krest'ianskaia Krasnaia Armiia. Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily--Biography.
Fighter pilots--Soviet Union--Biography.
World War, 1939-1945--Aerial operations, Soviet.
Korean War, 1950-1953--Aerial operations, Soviet.
Notes:
Includes bibliographical references (p. 350-351).
LC Call Number:
UG626 .S45 1998
DDC:
940.54/4947/0922 B
LCCN:
98-84259
ISBN:
0-7643-0476-3
Record ID:
MAHGBNI31106-B
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Widewing, time zone difference is too big - but I think that everyone in this thread will be extremely interested if we can compare US and Soviet descriptions of the same fights. So far most of the US "combat records" that I have read make me laugh.
Sorry, but both links you posted don't work for me - maybe something wrong with my connection, but as you can see I still can post here.
------------------
With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Thanks Dinger! I'll browse through Russian online book stores. No need to say that I buy any book about Korean war if I see it in local book stores.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Widewing, those links cannot be accessed outside of the United States due to the .mil extension as far as I know.
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Raubvogel
LuftJдgerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
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Originally posted by Dmitry:
its getting interesting and even yet if possible more interesting. One thing I dont understand is why you Widewing ignoring my request? It is more or less simple I think. There are should be records of rescue operations I am sure of it. If so and I am correct than please post the number of rescued pilots in Korea and whats more important is where they have been rescued. That number whould speak for itself.
If for some reason you cant pull that kind of reasearch please let me know
Dmitry, I do not have any data on rescued pilots, nor am I especially inclined to search for any either. It would prove nothing other than a pilot went down. It won't say why he went down. Engine failure? Fuel? Electrical failure? Ground fire? Air to air combat? Read the USAF documents I presented in a previous post and you'll see why search for such data would be a fruitless exercise, even if one were to find that data.
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-21-2001).]
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The aerial combat on Khalkhin-Gol
In June of 1938, in a short period, VVS RKKA created the air supremacy in the battle on
Khalkhin-Gol. The Red Army was thus able to stop the Japanese aggression on Mongolia
and smash the ground forces of Japan. The fighters played a dominant role in the air war
on Khalkhin-Gol.
In accordance with the Soviet data in the battle of Khalkhin-Gol 589 Japanese
aircraft were shot down, 57 were destroyed on the ground. The war losses of the Red Army
Air Force were 207 aircraft.
The most successful Soviet fighters on Khalkhin-GOl were Nikolay Zherdev (11 victories), Mitrofan Noga (9 personal and 2 shared victories), Victor Rakhov (8 personal and 6 shared victories), Stepan Danilov (8 victories), Anton Yakimenko (7 victories).
Lol, the 207 aircraft lost for the Soviets is correct, however, the 589 you state for the IJAAF is the amount CLAIMEd by the Communists--in reality the Japanese only lost 162 aircraft.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
Widewing, those links cannot be accessed outside of the United States due to the .mil extension as far as I know.
I didn't consider that possibility. One document is in html format, so I'll paste it here. The other is a .pdf file. Perhaps I can upload a copy to my server. Here's the first document, it a long read:
MiG ALLEY
THE FIGHT FOR AIR SUPERIORITY
William T. Y'Blood
The fight for air superiority began the day the Korean War started and only ended with the armistice three years later. Once the shock of the North Korean's invasion wore off, it did not take long for the United States Air Force, assisted by other United Nations air forces, to destroy the North Korean Air Force. The arrival of the MiG-15 in November 1950, often flown by Soviet pilots, changed things considerably however. For the remainder of the war, bitterly contested air battles were fought almost daily. Yet despite a decided numerical superiority in jet fighters, the Communists were never able to gain air superiority, testament to the skill and training of the UN fighter pilots,primarily those U.S. Air Force airmen flying the magnificent F-86 Sabre......
In the interest of reducing download time, I've edited the balance of this post. See a previous post for the link to the article.
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-23-2001).]
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recently visited the museum in Dayton ( Dinger and Mx22 were both there with me ) there was a video tape on the mig vs sabre thingy...
it was so full of toejam that it made me wanna cry. 8 to 1 kill ratio superior pilots and whole 9 yards... if the official AF museum puts this kids of BS out to the public, i wouldn't be suprized if they really believed in it themselves.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Thank you very much.
mx22
Originally posted by Dinger:
Alexei, I can file an ILL request for the book and see if I can some library to send it to me. Then I walk down to the copy shop. I'll put it on my to-do list.
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Uhh.. thanks for posting that in its entirety Widewing. I'm not sure what it proves -- and a link to the web page would have been better, but ok.
If you're earnest about delving into the US archives and doing some serious research on the USAF's involvement, a good place to start is Robert Futrell's The United States Air Force in Korea: 1950-1953 (2nd ed., United States Air Force, Washington DC, 1983) (first ed. is 1961). You might even be able to buy it from the GPO; if not Amazon has it. Most of the operational details you find copied elsewhere are mentioned there first (Really, you'd be surprised). He's extensively referenced intel reports, squadron records, personal correspondence and the secondary literature.
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Well we better add in all the Yaks, and Il10s and what not that were downed as well. From a standpoint of MiG-15s versus Sabres, the numbers heavily favor the US.
Sable
352nd FG
Originally posted by Boroda:
Sable, you forget that F-86 was not hte only UN plane in Korea. Please add F-51, F-82, F-80, F-84, Panther, Meteor, RB-45, B-29 and other plane types that 64th IAK had pleasure to shoot down.
Also please note that MiGs never have an opportunity to vulch Sabres. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Sable (edited 03-21-2001).]
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Ok gotta say - this is going nowhere... I see a lot of replies that gives a credit to MiG's and doubts the claims of UN forves. Basicly as any reasonable oposition stands Widewing.
So with all respect Widewing I have to say - you believe in claims that made USAF pilots blindly - seems that you do not have any doubts at all. However well few things were said above that were supposed to shake your position at least a little.
The facts are as follows:
1. Both sides had gun camera films, but only Soviets could add wreckedge to back up the claim. They almost never got a chance to see the pilot hit a ground. Sure victory was when they planed would blow up in air - but thats hardly happened to MiG's. Only eyes witness to narrow it down. 2 people shots same plane - 2 victories. But the MiG never went down - it went rtb!!! How in a world can anyone prove a victory when he never seen plane ditched, crash, wing missing, blew upin air?? - all he seen is hitting a target and maybe some smoke.
2. Gun camera films dont mean much - if mean anything at all by itself. Especially when it comes to durability of MiG against .50 cal damage.
3. Propoganda was issued in US due to release of this supposely to be classified info. In USSR it was highly classified - so there is no propoganda issues.
4. Too bad Widewing that you do not consider a number of rescued pilots being any proof. Rescue servise was very good - butr only at sea and friendly territory. When it came to go to enemy trerritory they didnt do that much as at sea - and thats understandable. By knowing the number of pilots downed and rescued you could speculate and guestimate the reall ratio.
5. All the numbers - and I dont belive in neither of them - specially the fair tails posted above.
6. Dont want to even consider replying in refard Finish war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
7. Thats about it I think - we got to know position of each other over this topic. I thank you all for some new info I got from this....
<S>
P.S. Widewing please understand - it is my opinion, and my opinion only. As for how much you should value one is up to you to decide. I know damn well my own value for your words. Its just happened that I am 90% disagre this time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and seems that I am not alone...
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Originally posted by Dinger:
Uhh.. thanks for posting that in its entirety Widewing. I'm not sure what it proves -- and a link to the web page would have been better, but ok.
I did provide a link in an earlier post. However, it was brought to my attention that our friends overseas cannot access .mil html files. Therefore, I posted the text for their benefit.
I've been delving into military archives for 30 years. Within that context, I currently have a major co-authoring project underway that is consuming a great deal of my time. Time is something that I do not have much of.
I work at a full-time engineering position, and write for two hours virtually every evening. In addition to that, I still have to do research, which frequently means travel and schedule juggling. To top it off, I have my wife and two high school age daughters to tend to. The fact that I manage to find time to participate here is a marvel of good fortune. Today I have more time than usual, as I took the day off to take my car for its annual safety inspection.
By the way, I am familiar with Futrell's book, although I do not have a copy. I have been trying to find the two volumes that I need to complete my set of Craven and Cates.
I have Carter and Mueller.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Dmitry:
Ok gotta say - this is going nowhere... I see a lot of replies that gives a credit to MiG's and doubts the claims of UN forves. Basicly as any reasonable oposition stands Widewing.
Of course you see a lot of support for the MiGs. Take a look at who are defending the undefendable... Most are citizens of the Ukraine, Russia, Poland, or recently left their native country.
So with all respect Widewing I have to say - you believe in claims that made USAF pilots blindly - seems that you do not have any doubts at all. However well few things were said above that were supposed to shake your position at least a little.
Stop. Think about what you saying. A great many historians have reviewed the USAF claims, time and time again for 48 years. Despite this, there has never been a revision of the victories anywhere near as big as that claimed by the Soviets. Why do you think that is? A cover-up? Not a chance. Any author would give his right testicle to uncover evidence of the Air Force covering up combat losses. If there was some kind of 'Big Lie', it would have been exposed years ago. The Freedom of Information Act has forced the government to open files they thought would remain closed forever. There is no cover-up. So, why should I accept documentation from the Soviet Air Force? What is their track record on cover-ups?
The facts are as follows:
1. Both sides had gun camera films, but only Soviets could add wreckedge to back up the claim. They almost never got a chance to see the pilot hit a ground. Sure victory was when they planed would blow up in air - but thats hardly happened to MiG's. Only eyes witness to narrow it down. 2 people shots same plane - 2 victories. But the MiG never went down - it went rtb!!! How in a world can anyone prove a victory when he never seen plane ditched, crash, wing missing, blew upin air?? - all he seen is hitting a target and maybe some smoke.
Are you familiar with the ejection seat? Generally, unless the pilot is dead, he will likely eject. Normally, pilotless aircraft don't "rtb". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Besides, how many damaged MiGs were claimed as destroyed, and credited that way? Based upon the USAF method of crediting victories, probably not more than a few. I think that you're stretching this beyond the limits of elasticity.
2. Gun camera films dont mean much - if mean anything at all by itself. Especially when it comes to durability of MiG against .50 cal damage.
That simply isn't true. If gun cameras did not serve a very useful purpose they and their added weight would have been discarded
swiftly. The fact remains that while the Browning M2 (.50) was not especially effective when compared to a battery of 20mm guns (which were the armament of the F9F-2 and F9F-5), they obviously were effective to the point that a boat-load MiGs never made it home.
3. Propoganda was issued in US due to release of this supposely to be classified info. In USSR it was highly classified - so there is no propoganda issues.
The story of the MiG-Panther fight was not generally known until well after the war. If it was to be used for propaganda, it would have been released during the war with great fanfare. Naturally, the Soviets would not publicize the event when they suffered a serious blow to their pride by inferior Yankee aircraft. There's no doubt that it would remain classified.
4. Too bad Widewing that you do not consider a number of rescued pilots being any proof. Rescue servise was very good - butr only at sea and friendly territory. When it came to go to enemy trerritory they didnt do that much as at sea - and thats understandable. By knowing the number of pilots downed and rescued you could speculate and guestimate the reall ratio.
There's nothing to consider. It would be pure fantasy to attempt to extrapolate rescues into estimates of Soviets victories.
What method would you employ to do this, excluding a Ouija board? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
5. All the numbers - and I dont belive in neither of them - specially the fair tails posted above.
You have the right to believe anything you wish. However, it is my opinion that you are deceiving yourself. Why? Because you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with nearly 50 years of evaluating the data from the war.
More importantly, you need to understand that regardless of what any nation announces it losses to be, the men in the squadrons know the truth. They know who came home and who didn't. In the USSR, that knowledge was useless. There was no free press to expose the truth. Any pilot who openly stated that losses were greater than stated was headed for a mock trial and a long hard existance in a Soviet prison. However, had 600 more F-86 Sabres been shot down than admitted to by the USAF, the story of the cover-up attempt would have been on the front page of every major newspaper in America within weeks. You simply cannot hide such losses in a society like ours. Someone is going to talk. Perhaps this is hard for you to imagine. Here in the USA, the press will dig out the truth, because the American people demand that they do.
6. Dont want to even consider replying in refard Finish war (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Why not? I think it's a valid issue, and so do others as witneesed by their comments.
7. Thats about it I think - we got to know position of each other over this topic. I thank you all for some new info I got from this....
Dmitry, you are a true gentleman. You have conducted yourself with restraint and good humor, despite having strong feelings on the issues. That shows great character. It is always a pleasure to exchange thoughts and beliefs with such a person.
P.S. Widewing please understand - it is my opinion, and my opinion only. As for how much you should value one is up to you to decide. I know damn well my own value for your words. Its just happened that I am 90% disagre this time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and seems that I am not alone...
I understand completely, and no matter what we may disagree on, it will not take away from excellent impression that you have left with me.
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-21-2001).]
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Thank you Widewing for your kind words...
I said and will be saying that I dont believe numbers - not from UN-US side nor USSR. I did post some numbers only to oppose you with something - to show you the other side. I never said I did agree with them. Why? It is simple - I dont trust numbers from USSR side because it is in process of study, and it will be so for qiute some time now IMO. I am sure there will be pictures, S/N plates and tons of other stuff.
I dont trust and therefor dont belief in numbers from US-UN side neither. Why? As i stated before the US pilots never get much chance to see their work being done. Smoke? Hits? what else? Chute? oh we are getting close... Wreckedge? bingo.. Where is all that? Some study been done for 50 years. yes... Some study been done based on the pilot words, smoke and gun footage. Comes to .50 and MiG's? I still doubt and a lot would agree rightfully doubt.
In conclusion: I amn stunned by how polite this thread was - the subject is very 'hot' and yet we all keeping it on the highest friendly levels. It is good to know that you still can pull off something like that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
One more time <S> to all and thanks.
P.S. I can sugest to move next time into Historic forum were we ll belong. We can raise a lot of good topics. Which ones? Its up to you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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I have to say that it seems pointless to argue cuz the other side does not seem to be interested in your argument having decided long ago theirs to be the only truth. For 50 years historians were creating their version of this war history. Now the opposite side's data came to light and this data is ignored as it "doesn't fit".
Personally, I consider it very sad when "history" is based on the work where enemy planes were "bagged" left right and center: "B29 gunners claimed 3 MiGs..." - ??? Why not a dozen? Did they follow the MiG all the way down from 40,000 feet to see it crash? Or did they film 3 ejected pilots? It looks like they claimed them...)
From the same book:"...As the front lines drew closer to their border, the Soviets dispatched some 13 air divisions to the area, including 6 equipped with MiG-15s..." Hey - F86s claimed more aircraft (MiG15s) as destroyed than this entire compliment...
I wonder which Soviet squadron commander would notify Moscow that they had been receiving a beating at the hands of the USAF
Sabres. How long do you think this commander would avoid the gulag had he told the truth?
And how would you suggest that poor guy would account for looses? "Sorry, we'll just go home now - our planes seem to have disappeared." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Am I implying that on some level, the Soviet fighter command fabricated its kill totals?
You're damn right I am.
... and in you mind you have no doubts whatsoever that USAAF "claims" = actual, factual, "bagged kills"? Remember the fable about blind wisemen studying an elephant?
You have the right to believe anything you wish. However, it is my opinion that you are deceiving yourself.
How true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
p.s. As for Panther vs. T34 I have to remind you all that it were T34s on the streets of Berlin, not Panthers on Red Square. Panther was modelled on T34 as a direct response to T34s hoping to fight T34s and win. It was considerably heavier and better armed - how did you expect T34 to fare in a one-to-one? At least, they were able to do something unlike anything else Allies produced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Why didn't you try a matching pair? I mean, the same weight category? How's IS-2 or IS-3 vs Panther? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Let's move this stuff to History topic!!!
p.p.s. I had no problems accessing Widewing's links from the UK
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 03-22-2001).]
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Regardless of who is right or wrong overall in this debate.
I find it ludicrous for anyone from the western world (and who has an intimate knowledge of how the free press works) to believe that the USAF did not report almost 600 lost F86's during the war.
Don't get me wrong, I know that "Big Brother" hides things from us, but 600 fighter losses ???? The equivalent of almost 50 fighter squadrons?
That would be like trying to hide the Hindenburg crash, 20 years after it happened.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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...and you find it OK to believe that the very same "free" press reported accurate "Commie" losses?...
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
...and you find it OK to believe that the very same "free" press reported accurate "Commie" losses?...
Pardon me, but where would they get accurate "commie" losses if they would not release this information to the west? Did American newspapers have access to Soviet secret documents in the early 1950s? Of course not. The logic of your point eludes me.
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Look - you claimed 8:1 MiG15:F86 kill ratio supported by many documented claims. I appreciate that you personally have not made this claim but you seem to be defending this figure with considerable vigour.
Let's ignore the little "thing" that in this case Sabres killed more MiGs than there were deployed (you used this argument, albeight in reverse earlier). Let's look at it from the documented point of view: Western historians were reporting something based on (in many cases) unsubstantiated claims of (predominantly) USAF/Navy aircrews about numerous kills. Now, after opening the previously unaccessible archives there seem to be evidence to question the accuracy of those claims. Are you prepared to do it? Is anyone? I dare say no. Why? Because the history had already been written, medals given, wine drunk in celebration of... Errr... You lost there btw but that's not the point.
Another thing - documents are in Russian, probably in some god foresaken place far from the Congress library. That requires more work and it's not going to earn anyone any brownie points. The history has already been written, it's comfortable and the good guys err... remain good, stuff the Commie bastards. Plus everyone is very happy with the idea that Russkies are somewhat inferior to them. It's supported by manipulated stats, and ignoring "inconvenient" facts writing them off as propaganda.
Back to Sabres vs MiGs - I don't know whether Soviet side claims amount to what's been actually reported - but you seem to be reluctant to even consider the possibility to examine the documents rejecting them outright. Why? Are you afraid that bleeding commies may have indeed "bagged" more Sabres/Whatevers than UN/US is willing to admit to? What if the bastards have guncamera films too? The difference would be that after being hit by 37mm shell Sabres didn't rtb. What if they have bits and pieces of more than 72 or whatever the official number of combat lost Sabres is?
Oh well... Let's not get too excited about something that happened 50 years ago. Lets' just be ever so slightly more respectful to our (former) enemies. After all, if that enemy was so weak and incapable wouldn't it devalue your own victories?
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Lynx wrote:
...and you find it OK to believe that the very same "free" press reported accurate "Commie" losses?...
And where in the hell did I say that ??
I said nothing about communist losses in the least. NOTHING. period.
Don't put words into my mouth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
You lost there btw but that's not the point.
We did? Last time I checked, South Korea was still a free nation. Crap, someone better tell the US Army we lost so I don't have to go back over there for another year. Our mission was to protect South Korea from Communist expansion....mission accomplished. I can appreciate the national pride displayed by all, but I think you're missing the point Verm is getting at.
If over 600 Sabres were lost in Korea and not reported, the press would have had a field day, and there would have been a cover-up scandal. I mean christ, our President can't get a blow job without the whole world knowing. Do you really think that 40 some squadrons of aircraft would just disappear and no one would say anything? Things just don't stay secret in our country, no matter how hard the government tries.
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Jeezus guys, quit playing the straw man game. We can all pretty much agree that the number of planes shipped to the theater and the number of planes returned will give you a good idea of total in-theater losses. And, thus, if we're reasonable, we can agree that neither the US nor the USSR victory claims can possibly correspond to what was actually lost. At issue is wheter the MArch 1953-publicized US claim that "78 sabres were lost due to enemy action" is an accurate claim (and I must say to our foreign colleagues: the US may be good at lying, but we're even better at "cooking" statistics to provide the most favorable numbers. Unemployment stats anyone?). The option isn't either 78 or 600, both of which seem pretty ludicrous.
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Yep lets talk shadow conspiracy - lets change a subject for a moment.
How about that US has never landed on the Moon? I have not for 1 second think that this has never happened and yet there press is almost silent. Whats up with that?
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Boroda Thanks a lot for the book, sry whole day was out - just came few hours ago and saw mail. BTW waited like 20 + min to get that book, if you want i can make it in Adobe Acrobat format. That way you will have your cortecy OCR by ... and I can publish it on some more or less fast server like I-drive or freedrive etc...
Thanx a lot
P.S. As i understood correctly there are like 20 + pages to go? If you will decide to finish it then plz consider adding a tittle and back pages where publicity info typed
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Originally posted by Dmitry:
Yep lets talk shadow conspiracy - lets change a subject for a moment.
How about that US has never landed on the Moon? I have not for 1 second think that this has never happened and yet there press is almost silent. Whats up with that?
Are you trying to say the US never landed on the moon?
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lol
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Are you trying to say the US never landed on the moon?
lol that is exactly what i said - loud and clear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
lol i dont know which part of that u didnt understand? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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F-86's were sometimes painted with F-80 markings so that MIGS would come down and engage.
Mig-17's rewl
I doubt the accounts of both sides as far as K:L ratios, but I do believe the US did have a distinct advantage over the MIGs in the conflict. Why? All US pilots were throughfully trained, most MIG pilots were not. That there was a crack soviet squad or a highly skilled US squadron out there chalking up kills is possible, but the fact still remains that MIGs were not always piloted by average-skilled pilots, when the US in comparison, had highly trained pilots in all their planes.
"Are you trying to say the US never landed on the moon"
It doesnt matter if they did or did not. The USSR was the first in space. I am glad a dog was first in space too (LAIKA).
Why doesnt it matter if they did go to the moon or not? With current tech we can anyway, so to heck with conspiracies and stuff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Matter of fact, im quite surprised we dont have a habitat on the moon now (heck maybe there is but we aint being told. wee!)
Maybe the IJN beat us to it and those $#@$# n1k's have been up there making rice cakes and dancing with the rabbits (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Is it just me or does anyone else get the vibe that dimitry has some soft spot for Soviets? Maybe we should send him back in time so he can live with communists again and shoot down Americans in his superior MiGs... but in the end the good ol' USA gets the last laugh because communism in the USSR failed and now their country is living in a crap economy--all because they wasted all their resources on the superior MiGs--ironic isn't it? In the end I could care less what kind of k/d the F86s got, wouldn't care if it was 8:1 in favor of MiGs. Only thing that matters is that those superior MiGs contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end to their oppressive grasp on Eastern Europe that ruined the lives of so many.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Well this thread went from unbelievable to simply ridiculous in a hurry. I've learned that the Soviets shot down the entire Finnish Air Force twice in Karelia. They shot down 90% of all the F-86s ever deployed to Korea. The United Stated never landed on the moon. Joseph Stalin invented the Internet. Man, what an education I've gotten. I think that's all the data I can stand for now.
Raubvogel out.
[This message has been edited by Raubvogel (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
Is it just me or does anyone else get the vibe that dimitry has some soft spot for Soviets? Maybe we should send him back in time so he can live with communists again and shoot down Americans in his superior MiGs... but in the end the good ol' USA gets the last laugh because communism in the USSR failed and now their country is living in a crap economy--all because they wasted all their resources on the superior MiGs--ironic isn't it? In the end I could care less what kind of k/d the F86s got, wouldn't care if it was 8:1 in favor of MiGs. Only thing that matters is that those superior MiGs contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end to their oppressive grasp on Eastern Europe that ruined the lives of so many.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 03-22-2001).]
Thats where your biased capatalist upbringing shows Nath. The East block was one big happy party from 1917 till 1997. Any information to the contrary is just propaganda.
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Пора завязывать. Начинается стандартное полоскание мозгов на тему "все русские - козлы". К сожалению со времен холодной войны не изменилось ничего.
Если Вождь Широкое Крыло очень хорошо образован и толерантен, то остальные "оппоненты" мягко говоря не заслуживают внимания. Обратите внимание как быстро они скатились на метание фекалий в стиле "сам дурак". Ну, винить их в том что они настолько зашорены просто нельзя, американец в русских ньюсгруппах получил бы гораздо более сильный отпор.
I think this discussion has come to a standard end that I watched many-many times on the Net.
Some last comments: 335 MiGs lost is a number of all Soviet MiGs lost at any conditions. Again: from all planes lost by a first "shift" of a 64th IAK 40% was lost not in combat.
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Sorry Verm - I sorta went to far extarpolating what you'd said.
Nath-Raub - see how easy it is to paint everything with the same brush: Russian = Communist. I think that after the Cold War brainwashing in the West it's difficult if not impossible to separate the two (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif). Now lets try the same: German = ... How's that?
Raub - I'm sorry to point this out but you did loose - Indochina is still under Communits rule (50 years on) with South Korea the only "non-communist" state there (it's not really "democratic", is it?) and we all know that if you guys went home tomorrow it would be overrun in a matter of minutes... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Nath - the very same MiGs (or , rather, their very existence) kept your industry on it's toes and in booming business for years, why can't you stop biting the hand that fed you for so long you ungrateful bum you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for "oppressive grasp" - it was far less noticeable in the Eastern block than it was inside the SU itself.
This topic is so far off-topic now that it needs to be moved somewhere or closed...
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LOL Ghosty
At some point in our lifetimes, somebody outside the US will have the technology to image the landing sites on the moon, and I hope you enjoy seeing the footprints and all the other artifacts left by the Apollo astronauts. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Yeah sorry Boroda - I think I killed it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
BTW i couldn decode yourlast post (unredable)
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
[This message has been edited by Dmitry (edited 03-23-2001).]
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LOL Ghosty
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) at least Funked here have some scence of humor
<S> Funked
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Dima, it's just the way things are. All East-West discussions end up in discussing evil commies and money-thirsty yankees. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Nobody's fault. Main question is "who won WWII", and I think that it's useless to discuss it with most of the Americans. I just don't want to go down to that level here, there are many other flammable threads around. Can't wait till someone will invent something as funny as mr. Jay Littman's "imbecilic communist bastard" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for the Russian text - it looks OK for me both in Opera and MSIE 5.5 in Cyrillic Windows encoding (CP1251).
BTW, I scanned the book up to p.120, more then a half done, will continue this evening. I'll better zip it and mail the file to you.
If anyone is interested in this book - mail me and i'll send it to you.
Starting another thread in History forum, will try to go on without political/nationalist crap.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Raub - I'm sorry to point this out but you did loose
Lynx, you can sit in front of your TV watching Baywatch, drinking a Coke and eating a Big Mac and think whatever you want. I was in Germany watching the Berlin Wall come down, I know who really came out on top when it was all said and done.
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Raubvogel
LuftJдgerKorps (http://www.luftjagerrkorps.com)
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The UN goal in the Korean war wasn't to conquer all of Korea in the name of Democracy! They were trying to maintain the independence of South Korea, while avoiding a Nuclear conflict with China or the USSR, which they did. South Korea is still an independant Democratic nation, enjoying the prosperity of capitalism. North Korea is still an oppressed nation, and the majority of the population is impoverished or even starving. Hmmm ... I wonder who won.
Originally posted by -lynx-:
Raub - I'm sorry to point this out but you did loose - Indochina is still under Communits rule (50 years on) with South Korea the only "non-communist" state there (it's not really "democratic", is it?) and we all know that if you guys went home tomorrow it would be overrun in a matter of minutes... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
As for "oppressive grasp" - it was far less noticeable in the Eastern block than it was inside the SU itself.
B]
Except when the Soviet tanks were rolling through your streets, putting down your uprisings ... but then that only happened once or twice.
You guys must be smokin some serious crack over there.
Sable
352nd FG
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Ok guys it was fun as I said many times b4r. Now time to go on... another thread maybe? Anyhow I want to leave on the highest possible level of conduct... opps to late for that?? Hehe...
Keep enjoeing to spill as much dirt on post USSR as you can, dont want to stop ya and neither comment. Intelegent conversation with intelegent opponent that besides all can have a sence of humor is rare, but thanks god not in here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So consider me officially off this thread, cya all in another war therad.
P.S. Boroda the book is readable to me, its in your thread I had problems... Switched to KOI-8 and was able than with Coder to decode... I agree 100%. I was saying than maybe would be better converting it into PDF and posting on some fast host maybe? I can do it since I know how bz you are.
P.P.S. From me and if I may from some more like me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <S> to Widewing
Dmitry is out...........
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Best regards
Dmitry aka vfGhosty
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Sable, I live in the North of Moscow and my apartment windows look at the Leningrad highway.
In late 80s - early 90s I often was awakened at the time of dawn by the tank engines roar. It was funny time.
All arguments coming down to kindergarten level. "My brother is stronger then your dad!".
American: "You have no meat in your food stores!"
Russian: "And you opress blacks."
American: "You have no butter!"
Russian: "You keep Indians in reservations."
American: "And we, we can kidnap your Brezhnev!!!"
Russian: "Come on, you'll have no meat and butter too!".
Looks nice: political flame in an offtopic thread in a Vehicle forum!
Drinking my evening beer, waiting for other bright people to show up with their dusty mothballed opinions. Naturally having fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Gents... the Cold War IS over. Right now we'd better damn well hope that our former Soviet foes end up with a stable democratic goverment (yes they have one now but I hope it stays that way..) and a strong healthy economy to go with it.
Kill's, info etc are always going to be "wrong". Why because in the choas of war your alot more interested in keeping your bellybutton in one piece than worrying about if you got a kill. Lets move on and drink a cold one to each other and all those boys that bleed for the old men in the offices of power... personaly I think the powers that wanna go at eash other should send SOB's out that want the damn war so bad and let THEM go at each other with knifes.
batdog
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Batdog, my hat off for you! Very well said!
BTW, I don't like current American politics, but I was in the US as an exchange student back in 1989, and I know that Americans are nice and friendly people, not much different from Russians or Ukrainians (hehe, I am half-Ukrainian).
Governments must burn in hell.
BTW, in Russian newsgroups anti-Russian opinions will meet a much worse opposition then I get here. That's why I like this board! People here are much more educated and friendly then average network characters. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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>>lol that is exactly what i said - loud and clear<<
Yes!! Now, the truth can be told! I saw it in a movie...OJ was in it...I guess he was going to look for the killers up there.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Andy
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Originally posted by Widewing:
Of course you see a lot of support for the MiGs. Take a look at who are defending the undefendable... Most are citizens of the Ukraine, Russia, Poland, or recently left their native country.
You sure as toejam don't look like an example of objectivism to me pal.
Stick your head back into the sand pal. And post your address, i'll send the historical documents about tomcats having 5 to 1 ration over Mig 28.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Does anyone know if manufacturing records for aircraft are available online? I would simply start with the number of aircraft built, how many were stationed where, and how many didn't make it back. That, at least, gets us in the ballpark.
Something I am surprised nobody mentioned is how many kills are claimed by two or more pilots (not that I mean both pilots shot down the same plane, but general fog of war type kills..Pilot A: I saw 26 planes and 8 went down; Pilot B I saw 18 planes and 10 went down) and then the intel guys trying to figure out how many were actually there and actually downed.
Dmitry: Of we course we couldn't landed on the moon! We would sink to deep in the cheese (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) . Besides, it's easier to just walk to the edge of the earth and jump down onto the moon then to fly up to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) . Aren;t all U.S. Test Pilots memebers of the Flat Earth Society? (Sorry that's another thread =-)
Great thread guys. A REAL discussion (not flame war)is always nice to see. <S!>
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
MAG-33 (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
'Criticism is always easier than craftmanship.'
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Originally posted by fd ski:
You sure as toejam don't look like an example of objectivism to me pal.
I see, and you are a paragon of neutrality, correct?
Stick your head back into the sand pal. And post your address, i'll send the historical documents about tomcats having 5 to 1 ration over Mig 28.
Hmmm.... I won't speculate where your head has most recently been, nor will I respond to your attempt at biting sarcasm. I will, however, request that if you have something to contribute, then do so at the same level of civility that has distinguished this discussion to date.
My regards,
Widewing
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...OJ was in it...I guess he was going to look for the killers up there.
LMAO!!! It all fits together now!!!
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Originally posted by Dinger:
Hallion's text (The Naval Air War in Korea, 1983) adds some details:
The Oriskany had just come into the Korean War on Nov. 2, 1952. The squadron was VF-781, the "Pacemakers", a reserve outfit, and the Oriskany was using the first F9F-5s in the theater (most of the others were -2s, the difference being mostly a bigger engine and a RR gunsight).
I have been doing some research on this event to get to the bottom of the story.
VF-781 only had six F9F-5 Panthers assigned to them. The balance of the Squadron was flying the F9F-2B. The major differences between the -2 and the -5 included increasing the length of the fuselage to accommodate the J-48 engine that made just over 7,000 lbs of thrust in afterburner. This is significantly higher than the 5,750 lbs of thrust powering the F9F-2 (J-42). With the greater power available, the -5 was about 40 mph faster than the -2 (up to about 585 mph at 5,000 ft). The vertical stabilizer was redesigned and notably taller. Other improvements were found in avionics, and the afore-mentioned radar ranging gunsight.
I have read Rowlands's account of the engagement, and it differs from what you have reported in the After Action Report.
Additionally, I have read John Bruning's work on the fight. Bruning interviewed both Middleton and Rowlands. Bruning's accessment credits Middleton and Williams with one kill each. Rowlands gets credit for one heavily damaged MiG, which by Rowlands's account was very badly shot up. Unfortunately, Rowlands was too busy dodging other MiGs to see if the
MiG went in or not. Hence, the damage claim only. Middleton remained in the area alone, flying circles above a Soviet pilot who had bailed out and landed in the Sea of Japan, about 80 miles south of Vladivostok. Finally, Middleton's fuel state required he head for the Oriskany. It is also reported that a slow moving contact was seen on radar
in the immediate area of the Soviet pilot. This is believed to be a Soviet search aircraft. However, it did not arrive until long after the Soviet pilot would have died from exposure.
Bruning concludes that the Soviets fired first, after Williams and Rowlands had avoided the first pass by the MiGs, and latched onto their tails. The second 4 MiG flight then executed a head-on pass with guns blazing. They missed. Williams then requested permission to return fire, and the battle was on. Rowlands apparently got into a Lufberry with several of the MiGs, after scoring with a long burst, which Rowlands last saw descending trailing heavy smoke. Williams shot another MiG to pieces, which was deemed to have crashed into the sea. About this time, Middleton arrived. He spotted Rowlands trying to shake off a MiG at
his six. Making a head-on pass, Middleton hit the MiG solidly and the pilot ejected. With that, the remaining MiGs retired. All three Americans returned to the Oriskany and landed safely. As you mentioned, Williams had taken some battle damage, which left him with trim control only of his rudder. He had taken two 23mm hits.
There's much more to the story, but I believe that we have managed to cover all of the important points.
My regards,
Widewing
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For some additional insight into the air war over Korea, visit the URLs listed below. These pages are all on www.korean-war.com. (http://www.korean-war.com.) I am providing direct links rather than have you navigate the entire website.
http://www.korean-war.com/AirChronology.html (http://www.korean-war.com/AirChronology.html)
http://www.korean-war.com/sovietunion.html (http://www.korean-war.com/sovietunion.html)
http://www.korean-war.com/ussraircombat.html (http://www.korean-war.com/ussraircombat.html)
http://www.korean-war.com/ussrairorderofbattle.html (http://www.korean-war.com/ussrairorderofbattle.html)
http://www.korean-war.com/USAirForce/usunairvictories.html (http://www.korean-war.com/USAirForce/usunairvictories.html)
http://www.korean-war.com/nokoreaairforce.html (http://www.korean-war.com/nokoreaairforce.html)
http://www.korean-war.com/DPRK.html (http://www.korean-war.com/DPRK.html)
My regards,
Widewing
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S! all
Here is a post I made earlier re. German Losses on various Fronts during WWII. It relates to the discussion here because you can compare the figures here to the claims by the Soviet Airforce at for example Kursk or other locations. The material is rather detailed and requires some back and forthing comparing the various tables.
While the material here tends to confirm Soviet overclaiming in WWII, I don't nessesarily believe the figures given for U.S. losses in Korea. In Vietnam a very large number of U.S. aircraft were essentially destroyed but were not reported as such simply because they made it back to base or crashlanded. Additionally very large numbers of aircraft ditched in the Gulf of Tonkin.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here are some figures on Aircraft and Pilot losses for the Luftwaffe. They come from “Luftwaffe” by Williamson Murray, a British author. His sources for the losses were the actual German records, not Allied or Soviet claims. “Luftwaffe” is one of the best analysis of why the Germans lost the war in the air which I have come across. I have had to take the Charts and tables which he has provided, which means in some cases all the figures I would be interested in were not available.
Total German Operational Strength May 1940 (Operational strength is the aircraft actually ready to fly, not including aircraft on the books but in repair or depots)
Fighters--------1369
Others----------4029
Total-----------5398
Total German Aircraft losses due to enemy action May-September 1940 (Invasion of France and Battle of Britain)
Fighters----------871
Others-----------1442
Total------------2313
Total German Fighter Pilot casualties. (Casualties include Deaths, Serious Woundings, and Captures. Fighter Pilot casualties are to be differentiated from Aircraft losses which can be replaced)
May-June 1940 (Battle of France)
169
July-September 1940 (Battle of Britain)
521
You will notice the big increase in German Pilot Casualties during the Battle of Britain. This was due to the fact they were flying over hostile territory at extreme range.
Total German Aircraft losses due to enemy action October-December 1940 (Night Blitz of Britain)
Fighters------40
Bombers------140
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Total German Operational Strength January 1941
Fighters-------1339
Others---------3008
Total----------4347
Average German Operational Strength versus Soviet Union June-November 1941
Fighters-------738 (55% of Total Jan. Operational strength)
Other---------1724
Total---------2462 (57% of Total Jan. Operational strength)
Total German Aircraft Losses due to enemy action January-December 1941 (not including November, figures N/A)
Fighters-------868
Other---------1981
Total---------2849
Percentage of Total German Aircraft lost Monthly, All Fronts January-December 1941
January-----------2.6%
February----------3.6%
March-------------4.9%
April-------------7.2%
May---------------7.5%
June--------------11.6%
July--------------16.1%
August------------9.8%
September---------8.8%
October-----------7.7%
November----------6.5%
December----------7.1%
You can see from the above chart the German losses are quite small when their only active Front is the English Channel. Losses begin to rise in April with the Balkan Campaigns in Yugoslavia and Greece versus the British Expeditionary Forces there, as well as the commitment to North Africa with Rommel. The Germans had significant losses on Crete, especially in Transport and Bombers. With the invasion of the Soviet Union losses jump very significantly in the first few months. But after the Soviet airforce is to all intents destroyed, the losses begin to reduce again.
Percentage of Total German Fighter Aircraft lost Monthly, All Fronts January-December 1941
January----------2.1%
February---------3.6%
March------------4.7%
April------------6.4%
May--------------6.8%
June-------------14.2%
July-------------22.9%
August-----------13.4%
September--------12.6%
October----------6.0%
November---------N/A
December---------10.2%
This Chart shows the German Fighter losses with the invasion of the Soviet Union are proportionately a little higher than overall losses.
---------------------------------
German Operational Strength January 1942
Fighters--------1324
Other-----------3809
Total-----------5133
I do not have percentages of the Aircraft deployment by Front for 1942. However in November of 1941, Luftflotte 2, comprising approx. 600 aircraft was transferred to the Mediterranean to assist in the suppression of Malta.
German Monthly Aircraft Losses All Fronts January to May 1942.
January------------428
February-----------415
March--------------564
April--------------525
May----------------772
This Chart shows the heaviest losses begin March with the failed Counter-Offensive by the Soviets at Kharkov.
Total German Aircraft Losses January to May 1942
All Aircraft-------2704
Total German Monthly Aircraft Losses June to December 1942 by Front. All Aircraft
Month-----Eastern Front-----All other Fronts
June--------350-------------------299
July--------438-------------------386
August------436-------------------371
September---332-------------------206
October-----200-------------------324
November----224-------------------595
December----408-------------------366
This is my first Chart which shows the actual breakdown of losses by Front. You can see the losses on the Eastern Front are higher during the Summer ’42 offensive, but losses in the West are higher in October and November during the fighting at El Alamein and during the invasion of North Africa, “Torch”. Eastern Front losses then move ahead again during December when the foolishly ordered airlift to Stalingrad was at its height. There were significant Transport and Bomber losses at that time.
Total German Aircraft Losses June to December 1942 by Front
Eastern Front
All Aircraft--------2388
Other Fronts
All Aircraft--------2547
You can see from this, that the overall aircraft losses during the second half of ’42 begin to shift to the West.
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German Operational Aircraft Strength February 1943
Fighters---------1360
Others-----------4014
Total------------5374
Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength January 1943 (note this is Authorized strength or Paper strength, not Operational strength)
Eastern Front----------445
Mediterranean----------280
Northwest Europe------1045
From this you can see 74% of German Fighter strength is cocentrated against the Western Allies.
German Monthly Aircraft Losses in 1943 by Front. First number is total Aircraft losses/Second number is Fighter losses
Month----Eastern----Med.------NWest Europe
Jan.-----482--85----282-124----176-87
Feb.-----318--63----206-89-----182-77
March----314-100----308-140----256-140
April----238-67-----572-247----256-143
May------331-110----333-97-----331-183
June-----249-85-----235-131----313-157
July-----558-201----711-246----526-335
August---472-150----321-133----625-248
Sept.----338-99-----503-167----522-276
Oct.-----279-94-----285-92-----530-281
Nov.-----194-45-----180-54-----529-281
December---------Not Available
In January the German losses are slightly higher on the Eastern Front than both the Mediterranean and Northwest Europe combined. This reflects the continued attempted airlift to Stalingrad. But after that, losses versus the Western Allies become much more significant. Losses are very high during the close of the Tunisian Campaign, especially during the abortive attempted Air Supply phase. Even during the Kursk Offensive and subsequent Soviet Counter-Offensive, the losses are less than those suffered during the Sicily invasion. Meanwhile as the 8th Air Force Bombing Offensive begins in July of ’43, the German losses in Northwest Europe begin to climb till they are largest portion of all losses. Notice especially the higher proportion of Fighters lost in Northwest Europe.
Total Aircraft Losses in 1943 by Front (excluding December)
Eastern Front
Fighters-------1099
Total----------3773
Mediterranean Front
Fighters-------1520
Total----------3936
Northwest Europe Front
Fighters-------2208
Total----------4246
Total German Aircraft losses inflicted in 1943, Western Allies vs Soviet Union
Western Allies-----------8182
Soviet Union-------------3773
German Monthly Fighter Pilot Casualties January to December 1943
January-----------137
February----------115
March-------------155
April-------------206
May---------------266
June--------------246
July--------------330
August------------333
September---------343
October-----------339
November----------245
December----------252
Of these casualties, the majority have been inflicted by the Western Allies.
Total German Operational Strength January 1944
Fighters----------1561
Others------------5180
Total-------------6741
Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength January 1944
Eastern Front----------425
Mediterranean----------365
Northwest Europe------1650
You can see from this 82% of German Fighter Strength is concentrated against the Western Allies at the start of 1944.
Unfortunately Murray’s book does not include figures which show losses by Front during 1944. However educated guesses can easily be made.
Total Monthly German Aircraft Losses January-May 1944. First number is total Aircraft losses/Second number is Fighter losses.
January------------991-473
February--------------N/A
March-------------1770-985
April-----------------N/A
May---------------1882-831
You can see the monthly losses are much higher than in earlier years.
Monthly Percentage of Total German Aircraft Strength Lost January-June 1944
January----------14.7%
February---------20.5%
March------------25.6%
April------------28.2%
May--------------27.8%
June-------------22.7%
Monthly Percentage of Total German Fighter Strength Lost January-June 1944
January----------30.3%
February---------33.8%
March------------56.4%
April------------43%
May--------------50.4%
June-------------48.3%
Since 82% of the German Fighter strength is concentrated against the Western Allies, the overwhelming majority of these casualties are likely inflicted by British or U.S. Pilots.
German Fighter Pilot Casualties January to May 1944
January-----------292
February----------434
March-------------511
April-------------447
May---------------578
Compare these Pilot losses with the previous tables showing Pilot losses during 1940 and 1943. You can see the attrition has become enormous.
Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength July 1944
Eastern Front------------------475
Balkans (Mediterranean)---------65
Northwest Europe---------------835
Compare this table with the Authorized German Fighter Strength in January 1944. You can see the Eastern Front totals are much the same. But the strength facing the Western Allies has shrunk to 45% of what it was in January. This reflects the tremendous losses in the Battle for Germany.
Jagdgeschwader 26 Pilot Casualties by Year. (JG26 were based in France and Germany versus the Western Allies. Sometimes called the Abbeville Boys)
1939----------2
1940---------51
1941---------64
1942---------69
1943--------149
1944--------249
1945--------110
You can see from this table that during the years when JG26 was only facing short range Spitfires and ineffective British medium bombers, it could pick its time to fight or not to fight, and so casualties were very low. But with the advent of the B-17 daylight offensive, and the nessesity to intercept these destructive and accurate formations, casualties skyrocket.
Average Newly Operational Pilot Training Hours Flight Time
Number before slash indicates hours on low performance training aircraft. Number after slash indicates training hours on first line aircraft.
Period-------German-----British------U.S.
1939-
Sept.‘42----240+/80+----200+/40+------N/A
IP: Logged
Buzzbait
Member
Posts: 101
From:
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 03-26-2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S!
Couple other stats:
Total German Aircraft losses Jan.-June 1944
6259
Total German Fighter losses Jan.-June 1944
2855
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Here's that last table again.
>>>>>>>>>
Average Newly Operational Pilot Training Hours Flight Time
Number before slash indicates hours on low performance training aircraft. Number after slash indicates training hours on first line aircraft.
Period-------German-----British------U.S.
1939-
Sept.‘42----240+/80+----200+/40+------N/A
Oct 42-
June 43-----200+/40+----340+/75+----270+/70+
Jul 43-
June 44-----180+/20+----340+/80+---330+/130+
July 44-
End---------125+/15+----340+/90+---400+/150+
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Didn't a British Hawker Sea Fury (Mmmmmh, sea fury) down a Mig 15 during the Korean war?