Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: DCCBOSS on November 11, 2009, 12:29:51 PM
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I have been looking at the new Saitek set up has anybody looked at this and what are your thoughts :O
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People on the internet are lazy. Don't make us google stuff on our own. Give us links!
Saitek X65F (http://www.saitekusa.com/prod/x65f.htm)
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The webpage "claims" the stick doesn't move... that it sense force "like real fighter inputs do" -- but real fighter sticks/controls actually move, and so do all joysticks in the known world.
I think that's marketting rephrasing things in a poor manner.
It has to sense the force you put on the stick, and it sense it by how far you deflect the stick, right?
Otherwise, you're up-ending the base when you try to give any inputs.
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biggest issue with the stick seems to be that its gonna need screwing/bolting to the desk. There doesnt seem to be any mounting holes,not that I would want it fixed down.
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yep also noticed it doesnt look easy to mount, which would seem to be a definite must
608 programmable commands? I cant think of 108 commands Id want to program..... sheesh
so many buttons and switches Id never remember what I programmed where
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looks awesome, I have been using there X-52 for at least 3 years with there rudder pedals, cant complain at all, this may give me a reason to upgrade :aok
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would be nice if one of the 608 commands could be -
mute wife ack
or
make me a coffee
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would be nice if one of the 608 commands could be -
mute wife ack
or
make me a coffee
Dadsguns would have a "Bring me a sandwich" button. :rofl
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It has to sense the force you put on the stick, and it sense it by how far you deflect the stick, right?
Otherwise, you're up-ending the base when you try to give any inputs.
Its interesting by using strain guages (load cells) it could have a massive range. Such a stick would not move as we know it.
Presently the degree of fidelity we get from a stick is down to the hall effect or resister accuracy plus the range of stick movement across it. (deflection).
Using load cells there is no limitation similar to conventional sticks which require angle of deflection to set the range here the stick just measures force. The range is set by the accurate range of the load cell.
This load cell range could be much bigger (albeit that the system will have to be solidly bolted down for very big ranges of input)
The test then is the degree of accuracy relating to the load cells them selves and the range (of force/load)across which they can retain their accuracy.
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Looks like a POS compared to the new logitech stick thats out now... The logitech G940 a complete setup with pedals....
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Looks like a POS compared to the new logitech stick thats out now... The logitech G940 a complete setup with pedals....
Damn that looks awesome too :cry
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From reading here and elsewhere the 940 seems more suited to a WWII type sims (conventional control surface activation) where as the X65F seems more suited to modern jet sims (servo/power driven control surfaces)
I cant see how the X65F can ever give the feed back of a force feed back.
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The webpage "claims" the stick doesn't move... that it sense force "like real fighter inputs do" -- but real fighter sticks/controls actually move, and so do all joysticks in the known world.
I think that's marketting rephrasing things in a poor manner.
It has to sense the force you put on the stick, and it sense it by how far you deflect the stick, right?
Otherwise, you're up-ending the base when you try to give any inputs.
Like Tilt explained, using load sensing the stick doesn't have to move in the context we are talking about here. It has nothing to do "about rephrasing things in a poor manner", they are telling it as it is. And as far as real fighter sticks go, F-16's stick for example uses the very method X65 is using. After input from the pilots a few millimeter area of moment was added to give some artificial "feel" to the stick. The stick still uses load sensing and the added movement has nothing to do with the actual input signals which still come from the load sensors.
While there are benefits like Tilt mentioned, this is definately not my cup of tea.
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A load cell joystick would have:
Absolutely no center slop. The edge of input would be right where you set it with dead band.
No potentiometers to go bad, basically no moving parts. Even Hall effect sensors can get "magnetized over time.
The harder you push, the more control input you get.
Nothing between you and the input. No center spring, no gimbals, nothing, just your hand and the stick.
A load cell joystick would actually start bringing aircraft trim in a simulation closer to real life.
If you don't trim, you'll have to maintain a certain amount of stick pressure to keep the Aircraft straight and level.
Krusty a load cell is basically a scale. Miniaturized, capable of being mounted in any orientation. Two of them would be mounted on a joystick, one for pitch, the other for roll each capable of positive and negative values. Stick would likely have very little if any movement. It doesn't need movement to work. No more than a truck scale does. It just needs a "load" to measure. You could make such a stick on a thin shaft so there is a certain amount of "flex". If you wanted movement.
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I actually spent several hours at the CON talking to Pyro and Hitech about building just such a stick.
If you think about it a load cell stick would give you the most accurate representation of the forces you deal with in flight. For example, if the plane is out of trim you have to push on the stick to keep it centered, as you change trim you are actually reducing the pressure you have to exert to keep it centered. That's just how it would work with a load cell and as Ghosth pointed out there's no slop or springs giving you an artificial centering movement.
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I suppose it would be interesting to see if by using the FF signal from a game such as AH the input to output relationship changes such that stick inputs have to increase to over come heavy control forces or indeed become non existant when (like in stall) the control forces are minimal.
Are there any reviews comparing the X65F to a FF stick?
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My CH at home is shot and unless it gets a bunch of bad reviews I think I'm going to get a X65 as a replacement. I've used the actual F-16 stick in a simulator. It took me about 30 seconds to get used to it.
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I've used the actual F-16 stick in a simulator.
Wouldn't that be a simulated stick? :devil
:bolt:
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:rofl There goes this mornings coffee, off to get another cup.
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My CH at home is shot and unless it gets a bunch of bad reviews I think I'm going to get a X65 as a replacement. I've used the actual F-16 stick in a simulator. It took me about 30 seconds to get used to it.
But - But . . . Ch stuff NEVER wears out, right? That's what I always read on the boards here. Somebody's not being entirely honest . . .
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My CH at home is shot and unless it gets a bunch of bad reviews I think I'm going to get a X65 as a replacement. I've used the actual F-16 stick in a simulator. It took me about 30 seconds to get used to it.
Will be interested in your review .................... as a flight sim player.
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It took me about 30 seconds to get used to it.
Yeh, it could be that my prejudice against this type of solution is a bit too strong. The idea just somehow feels a bit weird considering I fly primarily fly Aces High and the occasional glider in Condor or old singles in MSFS. For example, flying a WWI fighter with this kind of stick kinda takes away the "fighting the controls-feel" of it...probably sounds a bit silly to many though. :)
Anyway, it's an interesting move from Saitek and definately enjoys a lot of benefits over the more traditional designs. One thing I would like to have in my next stick is force feedback. I haven't really flown with such a stick at all. So that would make me lean towards the G940.
Considering the relative calm in the consumer combat sim flightcontoller developments, the fact that four top end hotas systems are hitting the market in a short time frame certainly makes it an interesting situation. Having had a CH-setup since '96 I really really look forward of the new CH hotas. Regarding modern features, CH sticks have been lagging behind for years IMO. It's their overall quality and control precision that has made them the best sticks on the market but features like rotaries, throttle dedents and better input cencors should have been introduced ages ago.
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Yeh, it could be that my prejudice against this type of solution is a bit too strong. The idea just somehow feels a bit weird considering I fly primarily fly Aces High and the occasional glider in Condor or old singles in MSFS. For example, flying a WWI fighter with this kind of stick kinda takes away the "fighting the controls-feel" of it...probably sounds a bit silly to many though. :)
Anyway, it's an interesting move from Saitek and definately enjoys a lot of benefits over the more traditional designs. One thing I would like to have in my next stick is force feedback. I haven't really flown with such a stick at all. So that would make me lean towards the G940.
Considering the relative calm in the consumer combat sim flightcontoller developments, the fact that four top end hotas systems are hitting the market in a short time frame certainly makes it an interesting situation. Having had a CH-setup since '96 I really really look forward of the new CH hotas. Regarding modern features, CH sticks have been lagging behind for years IMO. It's their overall quality and control precision that has made them the best sticks on the market but features like rotaries, throttle dedents and better input cencors should have been introduced ages ago.
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I actually moded one of my Cougar TM sticks to a FSSB R1 by Realsimulator. While it works well for jet simulators and helicopters it is a pain to use with prop plane simulators and yes, it does not move. It will give you a great arm workout in AH if you desire to, LOL. Most AH pilots would be dissapointed.
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I actually moded one of my Cougar TM sticks to a FSSB R1 by Realsimulator. While it works well for jet simulators and helicopters it is a pain to use with prop plane simulators and yes, it does not move. It will give you a great arm workout in AH if you desire to, LOL. Most AH pilots would be dissapointed.
Can you adjust the stick force response curve on your modded Cougar, or is it "fixed" ?
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Wow,
go read the Saitek support forums and then decide. lol
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yep also noticed it doesnt look easy to mount, which would seem to be a definite must.
Both the stick and throttle have four bolt holes near the corners of their bases; their purpose is to allow you to mount a retaining plate (unfortunately, you only get one for the set) to the bottom of the base, to which you mount the four pieces of Velcro that comes in the package, using the Velcro to stick the control to your pit.
It seems to me that, assuming that you could find bolts long enough, you could drill four holes in your desk or wherever you mount your stick and throttle, and bolt each piece directly in place for a more permanent mounting. You can readily get 3" long Phillips flat head machine screws, which would match the recesses in the bases for the bolt heads, but they may not be long enough to pass through your mounting surface and attach a nut if it's thick; searching online, lengths up to 6" are available, but ordering minimums may make buying them unattractive; it would be easier to string zip ties together to loop through two holes and fasten them in place that way. Mounting holes for fixing them down rigidly are already present; the details are up to you.
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Wow,
go read the Saitek support forums and then decide. lol
The Saitek support forums are hosed; the moderators have an announcement up that, due to spambot autoregistrations, they've had to disable new registrations until further notice. None of the threads I've seen up on the forums talk about the X65F.
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I don't have a Saitek X65F. Bought a TM Warthog and I am back to my CH setup. I moded a TM Cougar with the Real Simulator FSSB R1 about two years ago for about 400 dollars. The stick does not move. It is very accurate and IT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO CENTER. Do you know what this means? Great for jet sims and bombers. That's about it. Go ahead spend your money. I still yet have to see an ACE in AH who flies one of these.
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I use the x65 and recently tried my sons x52pro and was all
over the road trying to score a kill. Took some time to get
the scale right but now I love it. I'm no ace of aces high but that
crowd probably uses ch stuff mostly as well.
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I used to have a CH fighterstick with saitek pro pedals, and no throttle. I wanted a throttle and looking at the price of not so good throttles alone, I picked the second hand X65F at a decent price. I was curious in the technology and my fighterstick wasn't centering ok anymore.
I used the X65F for a couple of weeks. As said before it doesn't move, it senses the forces you are applying into it. It can be used without bolting it down to the desk, as you will most likely never use the maximum forces it can be set to. The amount of force required for a said input can be changed at any time via buttons on the throttle as some planes need a lighter touch in the controls and you might get tired of pulling 2kg just to keep fly straight. 4 presets can be set on the throttle.
The HOTAS is mostly metal, except for the hats and buttons. It feel very solid. Hats can be exchanged between the different positions as you like.
In aces high, expect to spend a week tuning your controls. Once you feel comfortable enough, the feeling you get of the plane is incomparable to anything I've tried before, including force feedback. Every plane feels so different, it is hard to describe with my limited english. Despite that the stick doesn't move the immersion is AAA+ you literally can feel the torque trying to spin constantly your airplane and you have to fight against it. THe stick is VERY precise to the point that your hand and muscles are the limit, and that is the problem of the stick. It is too demanding on the pilot, every little unwanted variation in your input (shaky hands for example) is perfectly reproduced on your airplane, making the typhoon for example very challenging to fly. Landing 2 kills is an epic journey, and I'm not even started on gunnery. Imagine you are pulling a classic stick to an angle of lets say 15 degrees to the back to get a deflection shot for a few seconds. Ont the X65F you have to apply the same exact force for that duration or your bullets will be allover the place...but with practice it can be done. One thing I've never did correctly is the neg G shot. You hold the stick firm, push and have to press the trigger at the same time or a button, plus the over nose view and/or primary fire if you want to shoot the MG's.
At the end of the day, the stick makes the game very fun and challenging. I was struggling to land a couple of sorties, my hit% got divided by 2. At some point my X65F started to put input on its own (it was my Wacom tablet doing electromagnetic interferences I think, it ended when the tablet got disconnected), so I used A 50€ T-16000 as an interim, and suprise at the second sortie I landed 7 kills without even trying! So Now the X65F is under the desk, I may come back up when I'll be in the mood for realism and fun. But for now I want to be efficient so I'm using a T16000 (still amazed by this hall effect entry level stick), with X65 throttle, and saitek pro pedals.
I just wrote what came to my head, if you have additional questions I'll be pleased to answer.
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Can you adjust the stick force response curve on your modded Cougar, or is it "fixed" ?
Only using Foxy or the newer TARGET software.