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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: hazed- on March 19, 2001, 06:05:00 PM

Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: hazed- on March 19, 2001, 06:05:00 PM
ok ive been flying in every type of plane in AH and none get hurt by ack the way the 190 does.
In a 190F8 you are even more likely to get killed by ack it seems!.I thought the F8 was much tougher..more like the JUG etc but if ack pings you i GARENTEE you will either lose your tail or your engine.
PLEASE HTC check this out......
as I have stopped doing jabos because its like flying a paper plane!
even the 109 seems to survive hits better than the 190 and that CANT be right.
If you leave other 190s the same and just toughen the F8 then thats fine but something just isnt right with their strengh.


hazed

Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: BigJoe on March 19, 2001, 08:08:00 PM
Agree, used fly Jabo alot I hop in an F8 today I drop all ord on a VH reverse for ack, I fire on ack pull up and start to extend for another pass, "PING!" engine is out again!  This is getting old we got bombers that have laser ammo, ack that has laser ammo, Jabos that engine goes out on a single ping. It seems my choices are gradually being narrowed down to fighters against fighters all in the name of game play.  Another one is the Ta152 50 perks to fly high altitude where nobody else goes other than the occasional bomber and who the heck wants to pee 50 perkies away trying to attack one of those things.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: AKSeaWulfe on March 19, 2001, 10:28:00 PM
It depends on the size of the ack hazed. My only time I flew a Fw-190F8 I was jumped by a D9. I must of sustained 13 or 14 20mm hits before half of one of my wings fell off.

In the case of the ack, I've lost an entire wing from a single hit in the Jug. I think it's just because of the 40mm shells.

Now if they were to keep the .50s tracking as fast as they are now, slow down the 20mms and how fast they can re align with a target and then slow down the 40mms more and also slow down how quickly they can re-align on a target, then you've got a winning combination.
-SW
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Wingnut_0 on March 19, 2001, 11:22:00 PM
Hitech, hazed isn't pulling your leg on this one either.  8 out of 10 times in the F-8 I've lost an engine on the 1st set of pings from either AA or a bomber.  I will use a 109 to deack a field vs. F8 cause it's more sturdy..hehe.

"Some" will think it's a varity of factors but many, many ppl have noticed the F8's ability to draw all hits in the Engine first off..  Any looking into it would be appreciated.

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Wingnut
Luftjagerkorps
 (http://pages.prodigy.net/armis1/.wi_kag_banner3.gif)

The quality of the box matters little.  Success depends upon the man who sits in it  -  Baron Manfred von Richthofen

[This message has been edited by Wingnut_0 (edited 03-19-2001).]
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Jekyll on March 20, 2001, 02:16:00 AM
It's not just the F8 guys, its the whole 190 line which seems overly vulnerable in the engine department.

Here's an example .... in my last 10 flights in a 190, on 7 occasions the first enemy ping killed my engine stone dead.

The other three flights I received no pings at all and landed uneventfully.

7 flights ... every single one where the only damage to my aircraft was a dead engine.. and that on the very first burst received.

Something's weird.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Vermillion on March 20, 2001, 06:53:00 AM
My guess is that it isn't the 190 engine or any other planes damage model. I would guess that it has too do with the way Ack is aimed, becuase it seems quite consistent that the engine hit is most common when under fire from AAA.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Sturm on March 20, 2001, 07:04:00 AM
Nope it is the 190's, D9 hit in radiator gone in 20 seconds.  F8 all but useless, takes forever to kill a Ossie in it.  Seems to be I lose the engine and vertical stabilizer first.  I love the dora just not its engine.  I stopped flying it for a bit do to this.

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: flakbait on March 20, 2001, 07:05:00 AM
Just as a hunch I dug up an old post of Hotseat's from memory. This was a while ago, so if I'm wrong do forgive me. He mentioned the problem with one ping deaths from ack was caused by the ack aiming for the pilot's head. He modified something and fixed it, at least temporarily. I'm guessing that he told the ack to aim for the plane as a whole, instead of a single piece (your head). If this is the case here then Pyro or HT could change the ack code so it aims for the aircraft, and not the engine.

Unfortunately, when you're diving in to kill the ack your engine will take most of the damage; it's the biggest part visible to the gunner.

-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
 (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Naudet on March 20, 2001, 07:46:00 AM
I wonder why the D9 is the only liquid cooled inline engine plane, that has so bad probs with the radiator.

In fact the FW190 had an armored radiator ring, should make it pretty tough, cause i didn't read anything on armor on other liquid cooled engined planes like the BF 109, P51 or Spit. They should be atleast as vulnarable to radiator hits like the D9.

On the other hand, should the radial engine of the F8,A8 and A5 be able of taking pretty much punishment. It was not uncommon that a BMW 801 engined FW returned to base with 1 or 2 cylinders dead or blown away.


Atm in AH the FWs seem to be the only planes that really suffer from engine hits. In no other plane i lost my engine after taking dmg.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Sturm on March 20, 2001, 08:02:00 AM
Naudet, I was just thinking the same thing.  The D-9 had an armored ring around the Jumo, another interesting fact the A8 was also heavily armored, Pilot and all.  I have started to learn how to fly the D9 better now, and I try and avoid any AA or ground fire.  What amazes me is how long other planes can go with a raditor hit.  Not the Fw's once it is hit cut the engine and start nursing it, I was able to glide back 1/2 a grid do to being at 12K and using the engine ever so slightly.  I feel the D9 is more of a weapon then the current Ta we have.  And i refuse to spend perk points on the 152 now.  3 flights 2 deaths  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)  I think they really should look into this for the 190's    

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Vermillion on March 20, 2001, 08:05:00 AM
Guys its not just the Fw190 that takes engine hits like that, where the engine dies right away. Its most if not all of the inline engines. Please don't start another "Its an anti-luftwaffe conspiracy" thread.

I personally know its the same in the Fw190D9, Yak-9U, Yak-9T, Me109G10, P-51B, and P-51D. They are all very prone to radiator hits and engine damage.

Naudet, the armored ring in the Fw190 is not heavy enough to protect much beyond rifle caliber MG's. Any HMG or bigger, will penetrate it without much effort. Plus the radial BMW801 engined Fw190's were very prone to engine fires due to its fuel injection design.

Armor information on the 190 A series.

 (http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-armor-2.jpg)

 (http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-armor-1.jpg)

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Sturm on March 20, 2001, 08:19:00 AM
Verm gonna have to disagree with you on this one, I can nurse a G-10 or 51 back to base easily.  A FW not a chance.  A Yak well I have flown foreer with damaged engine and gotten back to base, it is all about watching the temperature, FW's sky rocket as opposed to other planes.  Especially radiator hits.  I thought the D9 was a much more stable gun platform then what we have now as well?  Not a conspiracy for luftwaffe AC but what I have found, I fly them all, if it is an AA problem correct it, if it is a FW problem fix it asap.  As it is now 109's for ground attack?  FW's for base defense?  Hmmm something isn't right.

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: straffo on March 20, 2001, 09:05:00 AM
In fact there is something repetitive(sp?) in the damage we get (tiffi radiator for exemple).

But don't forget that a contrario to the real life (tm) we can
(1)allways replane
(2)we won't spend the end of the war in a POW camp
(3)wont be buried under 2 meter in a small box of wood ...

 (http://www.multimania.com/straffo/DM3.gif)

[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 03-20-2001).]
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Naudet on March 20, 2001, 09:20:00 AM
Verm, i dont wanna start a "help its an anti-LW conspiracy".

I really like the D9 and even the F8, they are modeled real cool, and for the 1st time i have the feeling that the D9 is in a sim, what is was in WW2.

But really started to wonder, why the only reason i lose a FW in ground attack is a 1 ping engine kill, compared to other ground pounders (F4u-1C, tiffie. were i flew in, took a couple of hits and got out without probs.
1sr i though, hey its ur bad luck, but than i read all the threads in here and thought "hey thats what u experience too".

The F8 was pure ground pounder, and that cause of its ability to take punischment and get away.
The BMW801 is a radialy, air cooled engine, similar in structure to the P47 engine. Both should be tougher than the liquid cooled engines. But in fact the F8 engine is in my experience the most vulnerable of all.

And the late BMW801 were not so bad teased by engine fires, with the re-constructioning of the engine cooling in the A3 and A4 the BMW801 ran pretty good.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Glunz on March 20, 2001, 09:56:00 AM
190s do lose engines with first pings. Just my observation.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: hazed- on March 20, 2001, 11:38:00 AM
ok Vermillion will you please stop calling it a 'anti-LW-conspiricy post'.
Im not talking about all LW just the 190!
I really get annoyed when i try to put my veiw in to these boards and its described as a godamn whine or like you said some sort of rant on an anti-LW policy.
IT is a simple observation which i would like HTC to check out for me.I have extensively tested this but noone will take my word for it so im ASKING htc to help me find out what is, or why this is happening.
Thanks everyone for your input.
btw i started same thread in general to try to be sure of an answer  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) heres link
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/008792.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/008792.html)


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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Fishu on March 20, 2001, 11:57:00 AM
Well... I remember from november that if there were engine shots on P-38 by acks, I lost half of the time engine and half of those times both engines.
I didn't do too many A/G missions in P-38, but if there was damage, it was most likely engine and couple of times both engines shot by two hits.

In Ar.234 offline durability tests, I did most often suffer engine damage (every time engine got killed right off) and second most damage was direct pilot kill.
Theres been some flights that I've done through ack fields.
While observing from external view, I witnessed very direct hits on engines often.
At altitude, most damages were in the engines, about 25% of hits were in the engines.
at nap of earth pass, pilot hits occured most and more non damaging hits.

So I don't think its just 190, since I did once test 190F8 against ack field and I took several hits before any damage. (wing blew and couple seconds later crashed)

Though, I don't know how accurate ack is in MA, but in offline it was fairly inaccurate (I managed to make several clean passes in Ar.234 NOE 450-500mph and fly long time close to field in Ta152 without hits)
I believe ack accuracy is built-in the game and static... correct me if im wrong.

..but it sure tends to get alot direct engine hits.
Maybe this happens because there isn't dispersion in ack fire?
I haven't noticed any dispersion in it, just inaccuracy.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Sturm on March 20, 2001, 12:02:00 PM
I have to agree with hazed here.  Everywhere you go you will find that the luftwaffe followers are more interested in plane performance/specs then any other nation followers.  Why is this?  I might be able to sum it up here.  Growing up I started following aviation at a young age "1st grade"  My father was a F-89 pilot then moved on to the F-101 Voodoo while in the USAF.  So I started to really gain interest in planes, my brother showed me the luftwaffe fighters and read me specs and told me stories about them.  It soon grew into a passion, which has taken a course of 21 years now.  When people join these sims the first thing they want to know is?  How does the FW fly?  The aura of flying them brings us here.  Therefore our number 1 concern is once they have them what could be wrong with them?  We dig thru manuals, books, authors, anything with relevant information.  You will hardly see this kind of passion for allied war birds.  Why is this?  What the luftwaffe did with so few against such overwhelming odds brings out the under dog syndrome in us.  I know the war was to crush nazism and the bubonic plague.  But inside of us we wonder my god what was it like?  The Tiger I + II and Panther tanks, with such size and force drew us in as well.  They had bizarre designs, compared with the somewhat whimsical approaches by the allies.  So it is not a conspiracy for the Luftwaffe, but a following of people that want to see and fly the bird they have drooled about for so many years now.  If you cannot appreciate that then you cannot possibly appreciate this flight sim the way we see it.    

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: hazed- on March 20, 2001, 12:59:00 PM
Sturm......mate   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ........so eloquently put!I read your post saying yes!..yes..dead right!..exactly!..spot on!.what more can i say this is the EXACT reason i play this game and love the planes.its their aura,their mystique,and the fact that we find it hard to imagine what went through their minds during this time.All ive read, watched etc gives me my veiw on the LW,and others, aeroplanes.Sometimes the planes in AH just dont give me the impression i expect from the planes.I dont expect the game tailored to my every whim! I like discovering what these planes were really like.To me the Accuracy of Aces high IS its draw for me.But when i get the 'feeling' something isnt right and im then able to test it and see it happen again and again (engine quits instantly first hit) I have to ask for it to be checked and this is what ive done.I have film of a typical jabo.first in p51(chose it because it was well known for its vulnerability to ground fire) and then in a 190F8 (supposedly the toughest of the 190 jabo) the p51 was hit and lost radiator but flew on.the 190 hit once on egress which instantly kills the engine.It happens too often.I'll send the films to anyone who wants them (250kb or so).

hazed
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: mx22 on March 20, 2001, 02:02:00 PM
Lets face it, when you fly Jabo, it is most likely that the first thing you'll loose is engine. Then it is vertical stab. No matter what plane you fly, that's what happens. Maybe it's just the way acks are modeled in AH - to aim for the engine.

Now Sturm, if you think that Allied planes fans are kids who just showed up and think P-51 and P-47s rule because US won the war, you wrong. Many people spend as much time studying Allied designs as you had spend on those from LW. Nonetheless, it is LW fans who start threads like this one - Fw190F8 gets its engine shot off most of the time and that is why there is something wrong with it. If you would have flown other planes for a bit, you would have noticed that other planes have the same pattern. Btw, hazed flew Fw190F8 only 7 times and 5 sorties in different P-51s, but he talks about damage these planes take like he flies them every other sortie.

mx22

[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 03-20-2001).]
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Sturm on March 20, 2001, 02:16:00 PM
On the contrary I had shelved my FW's and 109's to test the durability of allied planes in here compared to the LW plane set.  If you look at my deaths I would say 20+% are from gv's 25% Ack "A good portion from me being stupid and new to this game".  What I found was I was able to nurse the allied planes across the lines and land or crash land in friendly territory 80% of the time, with the FW's I made it back once and that was because my forward fuel tank was hit and I still had my aft tank.  I did make it back to friendly lines one time from a radiator hit at 9K in my D9 but it took a lot of gliding and engine management.  but as soon as my engine was hit I climbed ASAP knowing it would cut out soon enough.  It might not be the AA that is the problem but the modeling of the radiator/engine dieing to soon.  As opposed to the allied planes which can cruise for quite sometime.  This is after flying some 351 sorties in fighter/atack mode.  I shelved the F8 because I died to frequently in it do to ground fire or being hit once in engine.  What fun is flying a plane that dies that quickly?  I know I am not the only that notices this, and if you say it isn't happening well then you are denying the truth.  Yes it does happen in allied planes but not as frequent as the FW's.

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Raubvogel on March 20, 2001, 02:29:00 PM
I posted a thread about the radiator on the Dora right after 1.06 came out, might have to dig it up. Seems the engine seizes a bit too fast compared to other inline engines.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Naudet on March 21, 2001, 02:13:00 AM
Someone mentioned above u wont find many complains about Allied planes in here and only the LW pilot would whine.

The reason is simple, the allied planes are all modeled very excatly in AH. A month ago i started AH and flew my LW babes, and i sucked badly.
Than i though, lets do a little test, and for one week i only flew Spits, F4U and P51. And what can i tell, all were a dream to fly, they did what i read about them. My only sorties were i racked up 4 kills were in Allied planes. And that was because they do in AH what they did in WW2. Also they have these .5 cal long range missles, were u can use a 600 yrd. deflection shoot and see the enemy falling apart.
Anfd then after this "big week" i jumped back in LW fighters and "ouch" there goes my ratio through the bottom. I flew the 109ers nad they were modeled well, but didnt fit my style. Than i flew the FWs and dang the werent capable of much.
And than came the D9 and yes, i felt it was modeled right, fast, exellent roll and stable at high speed. And it was (like in WW2) a plane capable of fighting P51s and Spits.
Also i have to admit the LA7 and the YAK are dam hard opponents, the LA7 is fast and turns good, and the tiny little YAK ccan turn on a dime.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: straffo on March 21, 2001, 03:02:00 AM
 
Quote
The reason is simple, the allied planes are all modeled very excatly in AH. A month ago i started AH and flew my LW babes, and i sucked badly.

Your next challenge Naudet : show us your charts ...
And proove the the modelling is wrong  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

 (http://www.multimania.com/straffo/DM3.gif)

Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Naudet on March 21, 2001, 03:30:00 AM
U mean the AH charts??
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Glunz on March 21, 2001, 04:40:00 AM
wrong thread ;(

[This message has been edited by Glunz (edited 03-21-2001).]
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: MANDOBLE on March 21, 2001, 04:55:00 AM
Yesterday I got into ack range two times with 190D9:

First time: one ping, pilot wounded.
Second time: one ping, radiator out.
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: straffo on March 21, 2001, 04:57:00 AM
No naudet,
I mean compare the 12.7mm parameters to the 13mm It will show you that the 13 mm is not that good.Personaly I'm most often in front of mauser and other LW gun and I do find them dangerous   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).

And compare the parameters of you beloved FW in AH to real world chart I think there wont be huge differences.
Pilot quality is the allways the main factor exemple my ACM suck badly so even if you give me a tempest I won't be better (check my stat I've ruined 140 point without kills   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).

Concerning the damage model do some of you have some real statistiques about the localisation of damages on downed aircraft ?

The engine destruction in Jabo is perhaps due to the way the ack is coded but compared to what happened in real is it wrong ?

<edit> frogot the mighty frog  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

 (http://www.multimania.com/straffo/DM3.gif)


[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 03-21-2001).]
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Naudet on March 21, 2001, 06:32:00 AM
I have charts for 0.5 cal and 13mm MG131 (but have to locate em, btw i am posting this from work  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ).

But if memory serves me right, the MG131 has a muzzle velocity a bit lower than the .5 cal, and the ROF is higher in an non-synchronized version.

MG 131: 2490 ft/min
ROF: near 900 rounds/min, sychronized ca. 750 rounds/min

0.5 cals: 2580 ft/min
ROF: 750 rounds/min

As i said this is the data i remember so far, will check this out.

And i agree that the perfomrance charts of AH are not much different from the data un read in books.

And for the D9, i say, yeah its modeled pretty good and there is no real big prob with it to complain about.

But for the F8 there is still the fact that it really sucks in its designed roll as JABO.
A plnae that falls apart so easy by ground fire would have never been used in that role in WW2.

Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: straffo on March 21, 2001, 06:54:00 AM
 
Quote
But for the F8 there is still the fact that it really sucks in its designed roll as JABO.
A plnae that falls apart so easy by ground fire would have never been used in that role in WW2.

Yep but we don't face the same context in AH the Ack servant are never surprised never terrorized and so on, they are always efficient.
It's pehaps not the resistance of the plane (no A10 in AH neither frogfot  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) to consider but more the way the ack is coded but it's more a gameplay concern.
Personally I've seen Blitz de-acking and closing a small field with a DHog.
Even if you gave me an A10 I will be killed trying to do the same because of incomptence and lack of training/abilities.

 (http://www.multimania.com/straffo/DM3.gif)
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Vermillion on March 21, 2001, 07:13:00 AM
Naudet, its not just rate of fire (and remember most MG131's are synchronized) and muzzle velocity. There is also shell weight.  Kinetic Energy = 1/2 Mass * Velocity^2

Here is a comparison of the major powers Heavy Machine Gun relative lethality from my website:

Lethality(kJ)  Type       ROF/sec Weight Velocity(m/s)
303   12.7mm UBK MG Russian 17.50 48.00  850
231   12.7mm UBS MG Russian 13.34 48.00  850
220   .50 M2 Browning MG US 12.00 48.50  870
130   12.7mm Type I  Japan  10.84 38.00  796
112   13mm MG 131 Germany   12.12 34.60  730

As you can see the American M2 .50 fires a projectile that is 40% larger and 20% faster at the muzzle, combining for almost 200% of the lethality of a 13mm MG131.

Hazed, the reason I asked for this thread to not become another "anti-Luftwaffe conspiracy" thread, is not that you may be wrong about the 190's damage model. But that among the Luftwaffe community it is quite common to instantly jump to the defense of any Luftwaffe aircraft, and totally ignore any evidence that it may be a problem common to all aircraft, and then insinuate that its somehow planned for the US aircraft to be better.  How many times has this happened on other issues? Too many to count.

Sorry if you felt that this includes you, but thats the way Luftwaffe community in AH operates.  And as long as the Luftwaffe community continues to act this way, they are going to be labeled and treated according to the way they act and present themselves.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Sturm on March 21, 2001, 10:20:00 AM
Verm read my post that is 12 stories up  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)  This will explain why.

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: danish on March 21, 2001, 10:26:00 AM
Hazed has got a point about the F8.Some of the problem is universal but still.
Recently have used the A8 and now F8 a good deal in the jabo role.If there is any difference in (engine) vulnerability it is only marginal.And as has been said especially the engine and pilot is the two main areas where the F8 benefit from increased protection.

All IMO, but Im pretty certain about this.

danish
Title: HTC please check 190 damage model
Post by: Flitze on March 21, 2001, 06:30:00 PM
Verm, do you have any information of the armor of 190F8 ?
As far as I know F8 had reinforced frontal armor that included the windscreen. With the reinforced front and the radial engine the survivability (of the pilot) against the bomber boxes were (much ?) higher than e.g. for a 109 or a 190 without additional armor. Also useful against ground targets, but I doubt that the armor was good against a direct hit from flak or anything above cal 20mm.
My experience with ack: The key is speed not toughness. Once you're hit by flak, you're down regardless which plane you fly.

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Written by Flitze