Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DREDger on November 18, 2009, 04:55:46 PM
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I wonder why they didn't have B-29's in Europe? Seems like accounts of B-29's were always in the Pacific.
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Was there a need for B29s in the European theater?
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maybe because the b17, b24, b26 was already in the theatre in great numbers and by the time the b29 came into the scene the allies had dominance over the air in europe?
...and the b29... every one of them, was needed for the very long range flights to and back from Japan.
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I recall reading an article that stated that the B-29 was developed primarily for use in the Pacific Theater due to the long distances traveled during missions. One of the prototype B-29s also visited the UK as a propaganda stunt.....
Widewing would surely be able to shed light on this thread........
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I recall reading an article that stated that the B-29 was developed primarily for use in the Pacific Theater due to the long distances traveled during missions. One of the prototype B-29s also visited the UK as a propaganda stunt.....
Widewing would surely be able to shed light on this thread........
B-29 project began, IIRC, as a Euro-bomber, VERY early in the war, but by the time it was getting anywhere near completion, it was determined the need was in the Pacific.
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I wonder why they didn't have B-29's in Europe? Seems like accounts of B-29's were always in the Pacific.
B-17, 24, 26 and A20 where effective enough. However, the B-32 was in order to replace the B-24 in the ET but deiced to send it to the PT.
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The airfields in GB couldn't take the B-29 unless heavily modified due to its size and weight.
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The B-29 did serve in Europe, but not until the beginning of the Berlin Airlift, when USAF B-29s flew into British airfields to act as a deterrent force in case the Russians attempted to block the aerial supply routes into the city. The RAF also flew three B-29s and eighty-four B-29As (named Washington B.Mk.1) from 1950 as the primary carrier of Britain's early A-bombs; they were returned to the USA when the V-Force took over in 1954. The last three were refitted as ELINT aircraft and served with the RAF until 1958. Two were also supplied to the Royal Australian Air Force as A76-1 and A76-2, serving from 1952 to 1956.
:cool:
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The Joint Chiefs decided the B-29 would serve under one command the XX Bomber Command (and later XXI Bomber Command) and that theater commanders would not have control of the Command except in emergencies (undefined). The whole reason the B-29 was created in the first place was strategic bombing and theater commanders had already proven before the B-29 came into service that they were going to use air power as a means of support for their ground forces and not against strategic targets.
Even though the B-29 was rushed into service (literally getting the equivalent of 'service packs' in training units as well as on its way to the front) it was already obvious that the B-17 and the B-24s could accomplish the mission in Europe and the B-17 could not accomplish the mission in the Pacific due to the incredible distances involved. The B-29 could and did fly non-stop from Tinian to Hawaii and from Hawaii to New York and only one other plane of the war (post-war) could do that (the Twin Mustang).
The B-29 first saw action from India into Burma and China and its first encounter with the enemy was against Ki-43s that inadvertantly ran into a single B-29 crossing the hump. The fighters were amazed at the size and speed of the bomber and kept a good distance from it making feinted attacks but when the first fighter was smoked (literally trailing black smoke and dropping quickly) they left it to climb away from them.
Runways in China were hand made for the giant bomber but they never were satisfactory and when Tinian was finally captured the command was moved there (in great relief). In India the aircraft literally had the oil within five degrees of overheat just sitting on the field. In Tinian things were not much better but the XX Bomber Command could at least get some supply that they didnt have to fly in themselves.
Both the Navy and the Army resented the B-29 and wanted Hap Arnold to make them stop 'stirring things up in Japan' but Hap didnt listen. When Arnold asked LeMay when he would have all his mission targets destroyed LeMay gave him a date that was only three days short of reality.
The war plan of the Joint Chiefs had not expected to be finished with the war until 1947 and had the Army and Navy had their way the island of Japan would have been invaded (the B-29s excluded) and it would have cost probably another million Americans their lives. Churchhill actually requested that the B-29s be withheld in the final days and that his Lancasters (from Okinawa)take part in the final victory. How much time and how many additional lives would that have cost?
At the end of the war with Germany it was discovered that Germany had their own 'B-29' that was within one inch of design dimensions of the Boeing production version. There has never been discovered any evidence of information taken from Boeing and used for that prototype.
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The B-29 could and did fly non-stop from Tinian to Hawaii and from Hawaii to New York and only one other plane of the war (post-war) could do that (the Twin Mustang).
Thank you for that very interesting post on the subject. :cheers:
The B-29 could fly from Hawaii to New York nonstop? That is incredible, though I guess you do get a tailwind going in that direction.
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I've seen photos of an OD B-29 in England during 1944, but AFAIK it was a counterintel stunt to convince the Germans that it was there to train the pilots and crews for full scale deployment of the type to the 8th AAF. Flew around, made a couple of appropriately hush-hush visits (as hush hush as a B-29 can get, which was the point) and then was flown either back to the states or to the CBI.
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Other aircraft had the range to fly from Hawaii to NY (about 5,000 miles) in ferry configuration. The VLR Liberator for instance, the long-range version of the Ju 290, the Fw 200 (flew commercially non-stop Berlin-NY in the 1930s with cargo and pax). I'm sure there are others.
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Trieze you're right and that B-29 was named the "Hobo Queen"
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/tbyguy/2B7F476DEB3F4AD0813B788B40A3C22B.jpg)
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As for the Runways, did the B-29's who were in England post-war use post-war runways? And what about the visiting ones during the war? And were their "footsteps" really that much heavier thanof a Lancaster? It's not all about total weight.
Then I cannot but wonder how much range a fully loaded Lancaster would have had with the bomb-load of a B-17.
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Trieze you're right and that B-29 was named the "Hobo Queen"
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/tbyguy/2B7F476DEB3F4AD0813B788B40A3C22B.jpg)
huh, i know there was a B-32 name "Hobo Queen" aswell.
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Other aircraft had the range to fly from Hawaii to NY (about 5,000 miles) in ferry configuration. The VLR Liberator for instance, the long-range version of the Ju 290, the Fw 200 (flew commercially non-stop Berlin-NY in the 1930s with cargo and pax). I'm sure there are others.
Not even close for any of these planes.
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"a B-32 name "Hobo Queen" "
Indeed! there were two B32s called "Hobo Queen" and "Hobo Queen II"
(http://www.ww2potts.com/ON08_last-to-die3.jpg)
Involved in one of the last air combat actions over Japan:
"...Four B-32s from the 386th BS of the 312th BG based at Yontan, Okinawa were given a three-day photoreconnaissance
mission near the end of the War. On the third day of the mission, August 18, 1945, two aircraft were forced to turn back
and only two aircraft, the Hobo Queen and the Hobo Queen II made it to Japan. The mission involved photographing an
area north and east of Tokyo. The aircraft were unescorted, as the War was over for all practical purposes over.
As the two aircraft prepared to head home they were jumped by a large group of Japanese fighters including Imperial Navy
A6M2 Zeros and Army Ki44 Tojos. The first attacks occurred at 1:30 PM while the aircraft were at 20,000 feet. The enemy
planes made ten passes on the Hobo Queen II with little or no damage. About twenty-five passes were made at the Hobo
Queen, which was under the command of Lt. John R. Anderson. Seven passes were made at the tail of the B-32 and one of
the attackers blew-up. One fighter pass was made at the ball turret from below with no success, and another six were made
at the forward upper turret. About six more were made at the nose turret position, and several more at the upper rear turret.
Another enemy fighter blew up, and a third was scene going down smoking.
The pilots went to full mix and full throttle and power-dived the B-32 from 20,000 to 10,000 feet. The Hobo Queen absorbed
a lot of damage during these attacks. The radioman got the Hobo Queen II to regroup with the badly damaged Hobo Queen
to provide some cover. Three men were wounded including Sgt. Anthony J. Marchione, SSgt. Joseph M. Lacharite, and Sgt.
John T. Houston. Marchione and Lacharite were at the camera hatch at the rear of the aircraft when that section of the plane
was riddled. Both men were hit. Despite his own wounds, SSgt. Lacharite began administering first aid to Marchione, but a
second fighter pass wounded Marchione again. Despite the valiant efforts of his crewmates to keep him alive, Marchione
passed away at 2:00PM. Sgt. Marchione may have been the last USAAF combat casualty of the War. SSgt. Chevalier
administered first aid to SSgt. Lacharite during the long ride home.
Despite being unable to bank his aircraft due a feathered prop, Lt. Anderson got the Hobo Queen down successfully."
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As for the Runways, did the B-29's who were in England post-war use post-war runways? And what about the visiting ones during the war? And were their "footsteps" really that much heavier than of a Lancaster? It's not all about total weight.
Then I cannot but wonder how much range a fully loaded Lancaster would have had with the bomb-load of a B-17.
Angus the empty weight of a B-29 was 74,500 lb. The fully loaded Lanc's weight was 63,000 lb.
Lanc R5868 carried 9 x 1000lb bombs to the Danzig Poland area. About 780 miles. Another time carried 5500lb + TIs to Milan Italy. About 690mi.
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Not even close for any of these planes.
The Ju 290 was modified to fly from Germany to Japan. Some Fw 200's in overload long-range maritime reconnaissance configuration claim to have flown to within visual range of the US east coast and returned to France. A round trip of around 6000 miles. The VLR Liberators of RAF Coastal Command could probably do it; they had an operational range of about 2,000 miles (round trip with reserve and a small payload). In ferry configuration with reduced crew and stripped of weapons I'd bet they could fly the distance. A pre-war Fw 200 airliner probably could do it as well, without passengers or cargo.
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I looked all of these planes up today and the longest range aircraft (with additional tanks added) could only manage 4400 miles total.
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With reduced crew and no armament?
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Im talking about the VLR Liberator. The Condor with a range of 2200 miles could never increase its efficiency three fold. That was always propaganda in fact Boeing engineers debunked it in 1945 proving it was impossible to build a structure of that outline and get even 3500 miles! There simply was not enough room for the fuel.
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Yes it was just propaganda when the Lufthansa Fw 200 landed in New York on August 10, 1938, 24 hours and 56 minutes after it took off from Berlin. A flight of nearly 4,000 miles.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1938/1938%20-%202338.html
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The airline version is comparing apples to oranges.
(Sorry could not find airliner details)
I did find that the recon version had a maximum range of 3560 km. (2212 mi)
B-29: 9438 gallons Weight: 105000 lbs Range: 5830 miles
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Maritime bomber version empty weight: 37,490 lb (Fw 200C-3/U4)
Max take off weight: 50,057 lb
Maritime long range reconnaissance version empty weight: 28,552 lb
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The airline version is comparing apples to oranges.
The airline version doesn't count as another aircraft that could have made the flight from Hawaii?
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The max range for the Fw200 was with the long range recon C-6 > 5500km/~3400mi.
The distance from NY to the closest point in France is 3400mi. Those Germans must have VERY good eyesight to see well over 1000 miles. :O
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The airline version doesn't count as another aircraft that could have made the flight from Hawaii?
No the distance from Hawaii to New York is 4880 miles.
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The max range for the Fw200 was with the long range recon C-6 > 5500km/~3400mi.
The distance from NY to the closest point in France is 3400mi. Those Germans must have VERY good eyesight to see well over 1000 miles. :O
Have you got a reference for that? I cant find that any military Condor ever had that kind of range.
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Try Kurt Tank's bio by Wolfgang Wagner.
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Just for reference guys as to the distances involved...
A modern day flight from Los Angeles to London is about 10-11 hours.
By contrast, a modern day flight from Los Angeles to Beijing is about 12-13 hours.
So in other words, it takes as much time to cross the whole of the Pacific as it takes to cross the whole of the USA AND the Atlantic COMBINED.
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Try Kurt Tank's bio by Wolfgang Wagner.
I ordered this one instead: http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Fw200-Condor-J-Salgado/dp/1903223962/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258696290&sr=8-1
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The max range for the Fw200 was with the long range recon C-6 > 5500km/~3400mi.
The distance from NY to the closest point in France is 3400mi. Those Germans must have VERY good eyesight to see well over 1000 miles. :O
Haha yes, I've always been sceptical of that claim. However, is that range the operational range or ferry range with overload fuel, reduced crew and no ord/guns/ammo?
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Haha yes, I've always been sceptical of that claim. However, is that range the operational range or ferry range with overload fuel, reduced crew and no ord/guns/ammo?
The load weight was 1000kg lighter than the C-2 and with a 1000km increase in range, so draw your own conclusion.
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Ok, but did your book/source specify if it was a operational load (used for a war mission like fernaufklarung or weather reconnaissance), or was it a ferry configuration?
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The 200 making the flight to NY was a modified, flying avgas bag.
Give it a bomb bay and a generous load of twenty 200lb bombs (approximating 26
passengers, mail & limited freight) it had a range of 1k. So it could go 500 miles into
the Atlantic and then have to turn around.
I think I just pissed my pants trembling at how luck NY was from being bombed
lol.
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You must scare easily then. The standard Fw 200C maritime bomber had a normal range of 2,200 miles with a 4,600 lbs payload. 6,600 lbs with overload payload. 2,760 miles with overload fuel. The long range reconnaissance version had no payload, reduced or no defensive armament and had extra fuel tanks fitted.
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Range
C-2 bomber - 1570km
C-2 recon - 4500km
flight time
C-2 bomber - 5.0hr
C-2 recon - 14.7hr
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That's the early C-2 bomber with two different mission profiles, not the fernaufklarer version. The C-2 had BMW 132 engines, with the C-3 model they were replaced with Bramo 323R-2's which had a lower specific fuel consumption, and MW-50 for added power at low level. The fernaufklarer version added a aux. fuel tank in the gondola bomb bay and semi-recessed external fuel tanks to the engine nacelles.
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1078.jpg)
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The greatest range number I ever saw about the FW 200 was 6400km for the long range recon variant FW 200 C-3/U2. That's ~ 4000 miles.
The great circle route from Bordeaux Merignac to St Johns (Newfoundland) is about 2500 miles.
Actually, I have never read before any claims of FW 200s getting close to the shores of America. The only plane which I know is being claimed to have done this is the Ju 390, and even that claim seems to be more than a myth than actual fact.
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So that is where the extra 3734kg of fuel in the C-2 recon was put.
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The bomber version's (fernkampfbomber) endurance was 18 hours with overload fuel and a bomb load of four 250 kg bombs.
This subtitled German film is interesting:
http://www.realmilitaryflix.com/public/718.cfm?sd=55
The subtitling is rather sparse and my German rather shoddy, but very early in the movie I think I heard the narrator say that the convoys being attacked could be more than 1,500 km out in the Atlantic from Ireland. To me that sounds like a 4,000+ km round trip from France for the bombers.
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Nice propaganda movie.
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Yes, isn't it.