Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Boxboy on November 20, 2009, 10:57:17 PM
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This last FSO was a complete bust for me, I found zero enjoyment and in fact if it wasn't for my squad comittment I would have left after the first frame. The 2 model of the zeke totally out classed by both the P-40's and the B-17's, could not even engage with them before being "pig piled" and it happened EVERY frame for us.
Setup a few more like this one and FSO will be a ghost town, no one minds being shot down if he has a chance to succeed but this was a total joke, there was NO chance for the zekes that had to fly cap. Am I pissed you bet I am
out
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But if you found "zero enjoyment" should you not have been happy in the A6M2? :rofl
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Settle down hoss, its just one setup. We all know there are some gaps in our plane sets and everything cant always be perfectly even. Next month might work out better for ya :airplane:
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This is funny because I felt like the p40b was completely outclassed by the a6m2. We maxed out at 26k alt and had a zero group come in 2-3k higher than us, wipe out all our b17s, and then all of our p40's. I sat behind one zero blazing away with the 40b's guns and it took a 5-7 sec burst on the tail to get the elevators to fall off. We were outgunned, outperformed, and out flown simply because of the vastly superior gun package and high alt performance that the zeroes had.
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We all have our turn in the pickle barrel.
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My entire squad of B-17's was wiped out by A6M's save a battered aircraft I flew home on a limp and a prayer.
Strip
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"could not even engage with them before being "pig piled"
...If your defensive targets were assigned puny CAP #s, thats a call for your CiCs to correct. The IJN side had plenty of players. Its not the designers fault that your not assigned a credible defense force.
That aside, we all have off days, hopefully the next FSO will be better for you. :salute
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I sat behind one zero blazing away with the 40b's guns and it took a 5-7 sec burst on the tail to get the elevators to fall off.
Sounds to me like you're a LW guy used to the laser .50's that gets kills from 500+ yards. Ain't gonna happen with earlier models...perhaps you should have practiced a little more and waited until you were a little closer.
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Dont feel to bad, both fram 1 and 3 we were out number 3 to 1. You just take it as it is.
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We maxed out at 26k alt and had a zero group come in 2-3k higher than us
Film?
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Not sure why he's griping...it's not like the B5Ns faired any better...it takes a larger number of Zekes to deal with B-17s and escorts than it does for P-40s against B5Ns.
Gotta play it smart...the P-40 has to boom n zoom against the Zeke...can't get slow, and if you never flew the M2 model of Zeke you would never know it's flimsy at high speeds where the P-40 can still maneuver. At 400 or less, the Zeke will fly apart if you have your 50 cal convergence set to 300.
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Dont feel to bad, both fram 1 and 3 we were out number 3 to 1. You just take it as it is.
Dont forget we were getting HOed by every allied player in our sector. :furious
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Against zekes and vals in a scenario type environment, I'd say the head on is a viable tactic. Not one I'd take in the MA but again, I can understand it in a scenario type environment.
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I guess a lot of P40 pilots agree with you. Of the two frames I flew as a zero I was HOed a total of seven times, and that doesn't include the hand full of ones I managed to dodge. It was so bad that in the first frame I had two P40s HO me at the same time. Watching some of the film later kind of reminded me of 'Dogfights' on the history channel.
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It is unfortunate to hear that you missed out on the joy button this round. I hope you get to slaughter the bad guys next go round and all goes well.
Thanks also to management for your continued efforts to bring a slice of bliss al⋅a⋅mode to AH.
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Dont feel to bad, both fram 1 and 3 we were out number 3 to 1. You just take it as it is.
You guys escorted the B5Ns to A37, you had 13 Zeke pilots. VMF-251 and VF-17 were the CAP for A-37. VMF-251 had 6 pilots VF-17 had 8 that's 14 total.
We engaged you just a few moments before VMF-251 not to mention some of our pilots were trying to knock out the B5Ns. That's hardly three to one odds.
Your math is as bad as your writing Oak. ;)
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Chill out, I had noticed being one of the Zeke's that the B17,s were shooting at, seemed to be long range at the attacking planes, maybe poor planning on that planes capabilities, also knowing that a Zeke can out turn a P40, tactics should have been a boom and zoom approach, I seen plenty of P40's trying to turn fight which ultimately caused their death. :headscratch:
This is just my perspective on the engagements, one more note we all have been on the disavantage side many times. :joystick:
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I was the flight leader. It is all my fault and I am ashamed. I shall commit seppuku
Happy Thanksgiving Everybody!! :banana:
gus-san
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Have to disagree on this one on my part. While this is only my 3rd FSO, this one was the best of the 3 for our squad thus far. Yes, we got slaughtered in Frame 1 in our B5N's. Frame 2 we fared a better in the Zekes, but in Frame 3 we had total success on our mission with the B5N's.
None of the planes we have flown in FSO are rides we use in the MA's... we just set aside time to practice in the DA, and in AvA on occasion to get familiar with them... and the aircraft we will be flying against.
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I was the flight leader. It is all my fault and I am ashamed. I shall commit seppuku
Happy Thanksgiving Everybody!! :banana:
gus-san
Here Gus use my pen knife. :D
Have a great Thanksgiving yourself.
<S>
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Not sure why he's griping...it's not like the B5Ns faired any better...it takes a larger number of Zekes to deal with B-17s and escorts than it does for P-40s against B5Ns.
Gotta play it smart...the P-40 has to boom n zoom against the Zeke...can't get slow, and if you never flew the M2 model of Zeke you would never know it's flimsy at high speeds where the P-40 can still maneuver. At 400 or less, the Zeke will fly apart if you have your 50 cal convergence set to 300.
He has griped every frame. I think he needs a cic duty, and just putup or shut up... :old:
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We all have our turn in the pickle barrel.
That about sums it all up....... :old:
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Although I get sick of the complaining in the FSO forum, I am a little sympathetic to the OP because the A6M2 is outmatched against the P-40/F4F far more than any other asymmetrical matchup FSO runs. So long as the Allied pilots refuse to turn with it and use hit and run tactics, the A6M2 is completely neutralized.
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Yeah doesn't a real war setup stink. Maybe Baumer should have added the KI-84 to even it up some. :rolleyes:
Btw Gava, nice 7 kills yesterday. You seemed to do ok. :D
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I don't know about the A6M2 being outclassed by the P-40. By the E model, yes certainly. The E model has the power to dictate the fight on its own terms and the fire power to end fights with a brief snapshot.
The B model on the other hand I don't think so. I spent 45 minutes in the DA with 68Cactus before last night trying to find an advantage the P-40B has over the Zero. The only thing going in its favor was the flimsy construction of the zero meaning its whole clip had a chance of taking down a bird. Once the Zero's cannon was expended, its was effectively done. However, the Zero out accelarated, out dove, out climbed and obviously out turned at all speeds the P40b can realistically maintain.
Boom and Zooming has been mentioned as the preffered approach to taking on Zekes, but that's kind of tough when you merge co-alt 50' below the alt-limit or are trying to engage or keep buffs alive. And once engaged, the P40B simply cannot maintain E or regain it fast enough to dictate the fight that way. Our only counter to all this was to accept you are going to get in a turn fight and to maintain tight unit cohesion so you always have a chance to turn into a buddy who can clear your tail. I believe this is all pretty true to reality where US pilots knew in a 1 v 1 against a Zeke, they were in trouble, but felt 2 or more cooperating planes could take on larger numbers of - on paper - superior Japanese aircraft.
It worked reasonably well in two frames (last week has been struck from the annuls of the 68th ;)). However in both frames 1 and 2, whilst we scored kills, we were eventually all but wiped out because we were unable to disengage and eventualy pinned down by successive waves of zekes arriving.
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I think it was great fun and even when I was slaughtered and heavily outnumbered it was more fun than the arena.
I would like to see the plane set be more true to history but when we have to make do with what there is...
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I don't know about the A6M2 being outclassed by the P-40. By the E model, yes certainly. The E model has the power to dictate the fight on its own terms and the fire power to end fights with a brief snapshot.
The B model on the other hand I don't think so. I spent 45 minutes in the DA with 68Cactus before last night trying to find an advantage the P-40B has over the Zero. The only thing going in its favor was the flimsy construction of the zero meaning its whole clip had a chance of taking down a bird. Once the Zero's cannon was expended, its was effectively done. However, the Zero out accelarated, out dove, out climbed and obviously out turned at all speeds the P40b can realistically maintain.
Boom and Zooming has been mentioned as the preffered approach to taking on Zekes, but that's kind of tough when you merge co-alt 50' below the alt-limit or are trying to engage or keep buffs alive. And once engaged, the P40B simply cannot maintain E or regain it fast enough to dictate the fight that way. Our only counter to all this was to accept you are going to get in a turn fight and to maintain tight unit cohesion so you always have a chance to turn into a buddy who can clear your tail. I believe this is all pretty true to reality where US pilots knew in a 1 v 1 against a Zeke, they were in trouble, but felt 2 or more cooperating planes could take on larger numbers of - on paper - superior Japanese aircraft.
It worked reasonably well in two frames (last week has been struck from the annuls of the 68th ;)). However in both frames 1 and 2, whilst we scored kills, we were eventually all but wiped out because we were unable to disengage and eventualy pinned down by successive waves of zekes arriving.
Check the charts the P-40B is 20 mph faster at every alt until 22K, and the zeke is a Ronson it lites first time every time
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I thought this FSO was a ton of fun, and a real challenge. Different elements made it unpredictable and kept us on our toes.
The P-40's seemed to be quicker and if flown creatively, provided a real challenge and difficult task to deal with. Once our guys forced the fight below our high cover, we managed to get an advantage.
But it's a tough setup, trying to decide to attack great big flying fortresses of deathstar proportions, or deal with the escorts. Conversely, same goes true for the allies taking on the dive bombers. Do you try and get the jump on em, or take out the escorts first.
Either way, we had a blast, and it was great working with the squads assigned our area of operations!
<S> to the WD40 and 334th Eagles for outstanding work this frame!
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Box, it's not the speed. the A6M-2 out turns the P-40 and has a better gun package. I few the Zeak last night, and no problems handing the P-40s even though they out numbered us. My problem was the B-17, one blast from those fifty's while diving on them and it was over in a second. No, I think the Zeak out classed the P-40B without a problem, as long as you stayed high and committed to a turn fight and did not attempt to boom and zoom with them. Just my opinion..CVA
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My escort and another squadron were hit so hard that on my second mission I only had 3-4 guys escorting me.
We rolled with about 25-30 P-40's altogether....
Strip
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Bah, the Zeke is at least a match for the Warhawks.
Now as for being a match for the B-17s OTOH...my squad decimated a squad of Zeros last night, wiping out 8 of them last night for a loss of only 3 B-17s. (I'm not sure since I left early, it is possible only 2 our losses were due to enemy action). Without formations. Non-bomber pilot BnZs, whom (he is told) does not know how tough it is to for the poor wittle buffs to defend themselves :devil, landed with a score of 2-0 against Imperial Japan's finest.
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I disagree entirely that the Zero has the better gun package. Yeah, she has cannon. But cannon with about the worst ballistics and muzzle velocity compared to any other 20mm in the game. Shots outside of point blank range are a Hail Mary as it is--to say nothing if your target is actually maneuvering--and the ammo load is absolutely anemic. Afterwards you're left with just a pair of BB guns. The P-40B, however, has the same four Browning .50cal as the FM-2, even if not the same ammo load. Four .50cal will seriously mess a Zero up even with a snapshot as long as you're in convergence.
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I disagree entirely that the Zero has the better gun package. Yeah, she has cannon. But cannon with about the worst ballistics and muzzle velocity compared to any other 20mm in the game. Shots outside of point blank range are a Hail Mary as it is--to say nothing if your target is actually maneuvering--and the ammo load is absolutely anemic. Afterwards you're left with just a pair of BB guns. The P-40B, however, has the same four Browning .50cal as the FM-2, even if not the same ammo load. Four .50cal will seriously mess a Zero up even with a snapshot as long as you're in convergence.
IIRC the P40B has 4 30cal and 2 50cal guns.
Being the bad shot that I am, managed to down 5 P40s with my Zeke coming up two kills short of top 'dog' for the Axis ( :furious gavagai! :) )
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box, my guys were with 2 other squads defending A9 last night. We were in zekes as well--fully understanding the fact that the P-40's can out run and out dive us--but they sure as heck can't out turn us.
The 77th hit the bombers at A9 before the bulk of the main body could drop their eggs. We ALL got jumped by scads of P-40's, but the #1 priority was to kill the bombers--or get the bombers so rattled that they either failed to drop their eggs or misdropped. I can only speak from wittnessing what happened at A9, but we got plenty of bomber kills. Not one Allied bomb was seen to hit any target at A9--and only one squaddie reported seing one and one single bomb crater at A9, doing no damage. THAT is a successful defence. Yeah, I got shot down too, but the defense was a huge success. It was fun going down in my parachute whatching the Army of Muppets dragging the P-40's down to the deck and making mincemeat out of them using the Zeke's more nimble turning radius to their advantage--and that is exactly a great example of using their assigned ride to it's best use.
For each FSO, the CO needs to fully read the orders, look at what planeset each country has, and do a little in-game research as to what tactics they need to have in-mind, pre-take-off to advise his/her squaddies on how to not only survive, but get as many kills/do as much damage as possible with the tool at hand. A Zeke is a HUGELY deadly plane in the right hands in a dogfight, especially on the deck. It will out-turn just about everything (because of it's very light weight--down-side, because it's badly under armored). I test rode it many times over the last 2 weeks and in 1 on 1 fights in MA--had Spit 8, Spit 9 and Spit 16's run away after they found out quickly I was the one on their six...and I am a mediocre fighter pilot at best.
Hang in there box! <<<<S>>>>
ROX
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I disagree entirely that the Zero has the better gun package. Yeah, she has cannon. But cannon with about the worst ballistics and muzzle velocity compared to any other 20mm in the game. Shots outside of point blank range are a Hail Mary as it is--to say nothing if your target is actually maneuvering--and the ammo load is absolutely anemic. Afterwards you're left with just a pair of BB guns. The P-40B, however, has the same four Browning .50cal as the FM-2, even if not the same ammo load. Four .50cal will seriously mess a Zero up even with a snapshot as long as you're in convergence.
Sax you got two 50 cals and four 30s with the B model. Turning isn't the only way to use the A6M2 against the P-40B. Keep the fight going up and use the P-40B's weight against it. Sooner or later it will lose it's energy and you'll own it. If you stay in a constant turn you just end up being bait. We had a lot of success in late 07 or early 08 FSO with an Aleutians setup flying the A6M2 against the P-40B using these very tactics. In fact we really had our way against the P-40B with the A6M2 until the last frame of that FSO when P-38Gs were added. The cannons on the A6M2 are deadly against the P-40Bs you just have to get in close. Be it P-40B or A6M2 my convergence is set at no more than 250 and that's where I shoot. Stating that the Zeke is totally outclassed while landing six P-40 kills and a B-17 kill is one of the most humorous post I've seen to date. I do agree the B-17 was too much for this setup however.
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Not hard to do when the P40s are cutting circles 5 ft over the water, Shifty. They could have disengaged earlier in the fight to grab altitude, but chose to turn fight instead. The one thing you absolutely must have to succeed in the P40B vs A6M2 is patience, but patience isn't fun.
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Not hard to do when the P40s are cutting circles 5 ft over the water, Shifty. They could have disengaged earlier in the fight to grab altitude, but chose to turn fight instead. The one thing you absolutely must have to succeed in the P40B vs A6M2 is patience, but patience isn't fun.
I guess it's up to the individual's taste. I've enjoyed my time in the A6M2 in the past. I will tell you this if I'm fighting against the A6M2 I'd rather be in a P-40B over an F4F.
On the other hand if I'm flying the A6M2 I rather fight against a P-40B than I would an F4F. Like I said, individual taste.
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Not hard to do when the P40s are cutting circles 5 ft over the water, Shifty. They could have disengaged earlier in the fight to grab altitude, but chose to turn fight instead. The one thing you absolutely must have to succeed in the P40B vs A6M2 is patience, but patience isn't fun.
I agree that patience is key, but I don't think dissengaging is that easy in a P40B. It has a theoretically higher top speed, but its accelaration and climb are so lethargic a zero is going to run you down in most situations. The E model is a differnet beast however.
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Well, since our fight started at 25k ft, any P-40B had the opportunity to disengage from there down to about 5-7k ft. Once you get below 5k ft you're really asking for trouble because, like you say, the P-40B has crap acceleration. Every single P-40B I killed was on the deck.
Not every fight has to be decisive, but most of them in FSO are because it's fun. What's wrong is to expect the results of patient, prudent flying while pushing a decision at every opportunity.
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I think it was a great FSO sorry but it is what it is, I got killed so be it, we got jumped by a swarm of P-40's, so be it.
It is an awesome time with like minded people, live or die, win or lose, It's about having fun and reliving a part of our history.
I always think of the men who actually flew the missions we are "acting" out, and just give them a silent thanx :salute
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Well, yeah... but in the real thing, the zekes didn't come in at 30k with 50:1 odds, like my unit ran into last frame :x
:aok :bolt:
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We maxed out at 26k alt and had a zero group come in 2-3k higher than us
Had to be barley hanging up there for the zekes.
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It wasnt our best outing but some setups work for ya and some don't. :D
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Check the charts the P-40B is 20 mph faster at every alt until 22K, and the zeke is a Ronson it lites first time every time
Check them yourself boxboy. The P-40B is 10 mph faster until 16k, then gets slight boost then drops even at 22k. The A6M2 has nearly a 600fpm climb advantage over the P40B that gradually decreases til 16k. But it still maintains a climb advantage.
And the Zeke is not a ronson.
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I think it was a great FSO sorry but it is what it is, I got killed so be it, we got jumped by a swarm of P-40's, so be it.
It is an awesome time with like minded people, live or die, win or lose, It's about having fun and reliving a part of our history.
I always think of the men who actually flew the missions we are "acting" out, and just give them a silent thanx :salute
:aok
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Sure would be great for FSO and other historical-type events if the early war planeset were to be filled out a bit. Yup, surely would, nudge-nudge, wink-wink.
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We flew zero's all 3 frames and I had a blast. We came out alive only once!
http://www.mediafire.com/file/4gmtimet2wt/Holy cow fso
My last 5 mins of frame 3. 2vs1 (possibly 3vs1 but we were so spread out by this time I couldn't accurately count the p40's) not in our favor and the most adrenaline pumping prayer of a flight I have ever had, we tried everything we could to make it out alive while completing the mission and there was no way.
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CMs know there getting it right when both sides are extremely frustrated ...
Air Combat is hard, in WW-2 it was very hard ...
+S+
t
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Yup, that was intense and a lot of fun.
Keep up the good work FSO team!
-Mo