Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: juice on November 21, 2009, 10:01:14 PM
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does the 51D have an advantage over the F4U-1A in a vertical fight?
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is a frogs bellybutton water tight?
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Too many variables to consider with such an open question I hardly know where to start. :bolt:
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does the 51D have an advantage over the F4U-1A in a vertical fight?
1v1, Co-E, pilot skill equal... -a owns 51D
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If the P51 stays fast and resists the urge to slow down and get tight with the F4U-1A, there isn't much the F4U can do to force the issue, IMO. In the fights I've had against the better P51 pilots, I find that in the F4U I'm just defensively dodging slash attack after slash attack, until I can convince him to turn a little too hard or enter a rolling scissors with me.
Long-term, it ends up bleeding my E down to a point where dodging is difficult, although honestly it often seems to just be a wash. I can dodge all day, but I can't force an attack myself. If I can use a Barrel Roll Defense and hit him as he passes, I can normally force the issue enough that he'll turn with me, or leave me alone to lick his wounds. If that happens the fight is over either way...
The issue for me is that since I know I can turn better (in the F4U), I'm willing to give up a bit of E for a quick shot. If I do that and miss, and the P51 fights conservatively, I can no longer press an attack (since I'm not as fast as him). Knowing that, I'll often be very E-conservative against an equal or higher-E P51. One "trick" that works for me is to give the P51 an advantage on the merge, hoping to "bait" him into pulling hard for an "easy" kill. I'm basically trying to look like I don't know how to set up a merge, or am willing to accept a poor position. Ideally, he pulls hard for a position on my six- which I can then turn into an overshoot, which puts me behind a slow P51...
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I'll bait high 51s down by presenting my rear arc, usually in a shallow diving turn to keep him at the 4 or 7 o'clock position, build E, and force him to pile on more speed to catch me. As he closes within 1500 yards I Split-S or lo-yo into him to reverse and clear his line of fire, then enter a hard zoom as I pull through the bottom. If he's coming in too hot he'll seriously overshoot and scrub a TON of E attempting to recover, at which point it's just a matter of rolling over the top of my vertical extension with the help of a bit of inside rudder and that's all she wrote.
If he's more alert for the break and doesn't over-commit it may take 3-4 passes but eventually this will neutralize the E states as I gain altitude and he loses his starting advantage, and as Steve said, at Co-E the 1A will handle the 51 with no problems.
I find this works against almost any opponent with an altitude advantage, but is especially effective against the 51.
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wow thanks guys for taking me to school. i appreciate the knowlege :salute
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I'll bait high 51s down
As high as you fly, this must not happen often. :D
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Its an E fighter vs. angles fighter thing. The P-51D is not all that much faster top-speed, but definitely has an acceleration and climb rate advantage. The thing that makes it harder for the P-51D in this matchup is that the F4U rolls better and can take so much punishment. Its always best for the E-fighter to have a superior roll rate to get the snapshots and firepower to end it with one burst from such a shot, and that just isn't the case Pony v. Hog.
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As high as you fly, this must not happen often. :D
Wow, I never thought of a 15k cruise altitude as excessive for the Mains...
Seems no matter what altitude I'm at, though, there's always a P-51 or Tempest 5000ft above me....
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This is a pretty old clip so I'm not sure if it still plays or not. Basically highlights what Mtnman states. The pony will control the fight (unless of course your +E at the start) so the real key is to wait it out and try and entice a "mistake". To me this normally is a question of gunnery. Most pony drivers (the good one's) are consistently good shots who rely on gunnery as much as ACM. They fly very solid and aggressive +E attack profiles looking to press enough to create a mistake and are confident that they will then hit the shot. Combining the hogs roll rate, deceleration and overall "twitchyness" you can often avoid or survive a shot...the key is hitting your own shot since you won't normally get many repeats. This is a clip of me being bounced by skat. He'll normally win 4 out of 5 or so...but this is the other 20%....
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/newDhogvspony.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/newDhogvspony.ahf)
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Jeeez......
This is the kind of stuff I wanted out of the Spixteen vs. F4U-1A thread.......Almost all I got was that physics/engineering debate...........Not that I didn't learn some things from that but....Not the same.
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Jeeez......
This is the kind of stuff I wanted out of the Spixteen vs. F4U-1A thread.......Almost all I got was that physics/engineering debate...........Not that I didn't learn some things from that but....Not the same.
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Jeeez......
This is the kind of stuff I wanted out of the Spixteen vs. F4U-1A thread.......Almost all I got was that physics/engineering debate...........Not that I didn't learn some things from that but....Not the same.
I made a point to mention that to everyone about page 14 or so, but they just went right back to the physics discussion. :D
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Jeeez......
This is the kind of stuff I wanted out of the Spixteen vs. F4U-1A thread.......Almost all I got was that physics/engineering debate...........Not that I didn't learn some things from that but....Not the same.
Just be thankful you didn't start a P-38 vs F4U-1A thread all you would end up with a bunch of margarita recipes. Then again that may not be such a bad thing. :)
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Jeeez......
This is the kind of stuff I wanted out of the Spixteen vs. F4U-1A thread.......Almost all I got was that physics/engineering debate...........Not that I didn't learn some things from that but....Not the same.
the difference is that the hog and pony each have advantages over each other in different areas of the performance envelope, these differences allow you to exploit the other aircrafts deficit in that particular area. otoh the XVI is just better in almost every respect than the hog so there is no deficit for the hog to exploit.
its why I try to avoid fighting the same aircraft too, for me a eg. typh vs 190 fight will always be more fun/interesting than a pony vs pony fight.