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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: justIN on November 22, 2009, 12:39:29 AM

Title: please explain
Post by: justIN on November 22, 2009, 12:39:29 AM
I have read all about what planes can do and what they cant,I have read what there best at and what there not at,I have read how fast and slow they go and how fast climb rate is
But I feel that the plane comparison page is wrong?So many times I scratch my head at confushion,for one instince I flew a 190D and dropped down on a spit and missed got about 1.5 and noticed he was gaining on me wow he got me how is that?then I was in a hellcat dropped down on two spit 16 on the deck got one the other followed me up and got me after I had a 1.0 climb headstart.
I no Im not the only one scratching there head on some stuff/
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Buzzard7 on November 22, 2009, 01:08:39 AM
Lets see where to start. Hellcat weighs 12,000 lbs. and a Spit 16 weighs in at 7500 lbs. give or take. It's all about energy management. If you went into that climb at less than 350 your energy will bleed down quick and the Spit will climb right up your six.
There are tons of factors that effect the fight that you will not be able to read about. Numbers on paper don't give you the whole story.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: oakranger on November 22, 2009, 01:16:11 AM
You will learn a lot about the game and how there are moves that some AC can do that is physically impossible to do in real life.  and there are moves that can be done in real life that you can not do in the game.  Case example, spits in the game that break will have this crazy out of control spinning all around in circals then they dive away.  If they do that in real life that spit with be tore apart.  I seen B-24 in the game do barrow rolls that i never hear it do in real life.  Nor do i think it can never be done. 
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Noir on November 22, 2009, 01:29:25 AM
You will learn a lot about the game and how there are moves that some AC can do that is physically impossible to do in real life.  and there are moves that can be done in real life that you can not do in the game.  Case example, spits in the game that break will have this crazy out of control spinning all around in circals then they dive away.  If they do that in real life that spit with be tore apart.  I seen B-24 in the game do barrow rolls that i never hear it do in real life.  Nor do i think it can never be done. 

I fail to see how that is related to the OP's question.

justIN you should record your sorties and analyse them, I think your problem lies in trajectories, a spit may be slower at max speed but if he takes the shorter path he'll get there before the 190D9. The guy following always has an advantage on trajectory as he can anticipate and cut its target trajectory. Also the spit is slower on max speed, but got tremendous acceleration and climb rate, its always hard to outrun.

hope that helped  :salute
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: shiv on November 22, 2009, 01:35:03 AM
I have read all about what planes can do and what they cant,I have read what there best at and what there not at,I have read how fast and slow they go and how fast climb rate is
But I feel that the plane comparison page is wrong?So many times I scratch my head at confushion,for one instince I flew a 190D and dropped down on a spit and missed got about 1.5 and noticed he was gaining on me wow he got me how is that?then I was in a hellcat dropped down on two spit 16 on the deck got one the other followed me up and got me after I had a 1.0 climb headstart.
I no Im not the only one scratching there head on some stuff/

What you're missing is that no-one in a given situation is starting from a dead stop - each plane is carrying E in the form of speed.  So if you see a Spit16 below you it may actually be going 450 because it just dove before you saw it, and you may be in trouble.  Film your sorties and then watch the speeds in the films.  All will be revealed.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: BaldEagl on November 22, 2009, 02:00:57 AM
In the 190, aside from what everyone else has mentioned, you probably needed to lower the climb rate to maintain speed.  In a max climb the Spit will shortly gobble you up.  In a shallower climb you'd be able to out-run him.

Similar in the F6F.  If you're trying to get away from Spits in a max climb then good luck.  We'll see you posting here often.  The fact is in the F6f, unless you have a big E advantage, you won't get away no matter what you do.  Even if you do if they are determined they will catch you.  Once you commit to that fight you're committed to take them both out or die trying.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Kweassa on November 22, 2009, 02:10:51 AM
 It's not the spec of the given plane that is the problem, justIN.

 It's the concept of ENERGY you are missing out.


 It's pretty much impossible to explain it in just one or two discussions, so I'll just say two things:


(1) Understanding the concept of relative E(nergy) differences between the planes, is the door to becoming a successful combat pilot in AH.

(2) Every newcomer has problems understanding this concept, and the lack of understanding often leads them to mistakenly assume that the game is wrong.

     Here's a tip - it isn't.



 Since we have no film to analyze the circumstances of what you've experienced, all we can offer you is some likely scenarios.

 For instance;

(1) there could have been problems in the way you've maneuvered - making E-draining, unnecssary movements.
(2) during the "Boom" ('drop down') sequence of your attack, you may have misjudged how fast the enemy plane was already moving
(3) during the "Zoom" ('climb up') sequence of your attack, you may have pulled out too hard, burning a lot of E
(4) the enemy planes could have drawn you into a planned overshoot, and then may have moved into a position that "cuts a lot of corners", thus temporarily gaining distance

.. and etc etc etc..


Now, you may take a look at these scenarios and think "No, I didn't do that" - but trust me. Memory is fallible, and self-serving. A lot of times people say one thing, and then when we take a look at the film, they're just plain wrong. This is why filming your sorties helps.


 
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: 5PointOh on November 22, 2009, 09:01:37 AM
I agree with Kweassa,  watch your films look at you speeds and the enemy speeds, and watch them though the entire encounter.  Click the "trails" box on the film view to see the courses traveled by all of the planes. This will help you understand what you did right and what you did wrong. Go to this site http://www.netaces.org/ , there are some great articles on energy management. I hope it helps.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Spikes on November 22, 2009, 09:09:41 AM
Alt R is your friend, hit it, save the film, and review it yourself/post it up here.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: ACE on November 22, 2009, 09:20:14 AM
Alt R is your friend, hit it, save the film, and review it yourself/post it up here.
Exactly
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: MrRiplEy[H] on November 22, 2009, 09:26:53 AM
What you're missing is that no-one in a given situation is starting from a dead stop - each plane is carrying E in the form of speed.  So if you see a Spit16 below you it may actually be going 450 because it just dove before you saw it, and you may be in trouble.  Film your sorties and then watch the speeds in the films.  All will be revealed.

Except if it too was going 450 the dora obviously would not pass him too quickly and/or overshoot.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Shuffler on November 22, 2009, 11:04:10 AM
Knowing the plane is one thing. There are more forgiving planes and those that take more effort. The pilot can make a huge difference. One that knows his plane well can use that as a great advantage.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: TEShaw on November 22, 2009, 11:47:09 AM
I have read all about what planes can do and what they cant,I have read what there best at and what there not at,I have read how fast and slow they go and how fast climb rate is
But I feel that the plane comparison page is wrong?So many times I scratch my head at confushion,for one instince I flew a 190D and dropped down on a spit and missed got about 1.5 and noticed he was gaining on me wow he got me how is that?then I was in a hellcat dropped down on two spit 16 on the deck got one the other followed me up and got me after I had a 1.0 climb headstart.
I no Im not the only one scratching there head on some stuff/

Six lines of gibberish and four misused punctuation marks.

I hold this up and present it to you as my nomination for "Idiot Junk of the Year."
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: TEShaw on November 22, 2009, 11:58:51 AM
OK, my bad.

That should read as: "IDIOTIC Junk of the Year."
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: E25280 on November 22, 2009, 12:19:46 PM
NM
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Karnak on November 22, 2009, 12:30:44 PM
Six lines of gibberish and four misused punctuation marks.

I hold this up and present it to you as my nomination for "Idiot Junk of the Year."
He's a new player asking for help and you respond with insults and mockery?  Classy.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Strip on November 22, 2009, 12:44:16 PM
OK, my bad.

That should read as: "IDIOTIC Junk of the Year."

Well if your quoting your own post I would have to agree....

Strip
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Simba on November 22, 2009, 04:45:25 PM
"I was in a hellcat dropped down on two spit 16 on the deck got one the other followed me up and got me after I had a 1.0 climb headstart."

Well done on getting the first Spitfire - but trying to out-climb a Spitfire XVI in a Hellcat is a bad move, even with a thousand yards head-start. You lost energy by pulling up into the climb and the surviving Spitfire accelerated quicker than you, presumably from a starting speed not much less than yours, which enabled him to 'cut the corner' and get on your six.

Better luck next time.

 :aok
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: CAP1 on November 22, 2009, 05:37:03 PM
You will learn a lot about the game and how there are moves that some AC can do that is physically impossible to do in real life.  and there are moves that can be done in real life that you can not do in the game.  Case example, spits in the game that break will have this crazy out of control spinning all around in circals then they dive away.  If they do that in real life that spit with be tore apart.  I seen B-24 in the game do barrow rolls that i never hear it do in real life.  Nor do i think it can never be done. 

actually, they wouldn't.

what you describe ia a "departure" stall. the pilot pulled too hard, exceeded the critical angle of attack, the and the aircraft stalled/spun. he recovered, and continued on his way.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Kweassa on November 22, 2009, 05:43:07 PM
Quote
I seen B-24 in the game do barrow rolls that i never hear it do in real life.  Nor do i think it can never be done.

Why shouldn't they?

Ever seen a Boeing 747 do a barrel roll?
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Ack-Ack on November 22, 2009, 05:53:00 PM
Why shouldn't they?

Ever seen a Boeing 747 do a barrel roll?

I've seen a Boeing 707 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vHiYA6Dmws) do a barrel roll.


ack-ack
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Kweassa on November 22, 2009, 06:47:52 PM

 Mybad. 707 it is.


 There seems to be a debate on whether the 747 could do it.

 http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/229/is-it-possible-to-loop-or-roll-a-747-jet

 
 Some say the only 747 they've seen doing a barrel roll was the Airforce-1.


Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Noir on November 23, 2009, 03:47:13 AM
Mybad. 707 it is.


 There seems to be a debate on whether the 747 could do it.

 http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/229/is-it-possible-to-loop-or-roll-a-747-jet

 
 Some say the only 747 they've seen doing a barrel roll was the Airforce-1.




US presidents think rollercoasters are overrated :)
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: mechanic on November 23, 2009, 06:35:19 AM
If the spitfire had 25% fuel and you had 75% fuel then that may be your answer
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Vinkman on November 23, 2009, 07:49:16 AM
OK, my bad.

That should read as: "IDIOTIC Junk of the Year."

Not very helpful to anyone.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: OOZ662 on November 23, 2009, 08:23:51 AM
Alt R is your friend, hit it, save the film, and review it yourself/post it up here.

Just a note; we now have the option to automatically begin recording at the start of a sortie.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Slate on November 23, 2009, 11:24:00 AM
   I fly the 190d alot and it will outrun spits most of the time unless they have alot more E. Don't even try to out climb a spit or slow turn fight one. You will lose. Dive your 190 when in trouble and it's speed will help you slowly pull away. When the spit disengages you can then climb and get back into the fray.   :D
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: CAP1 on November 23, 2009, 11:36:54 AM
   I fly the 190d alot and it will outrun spits most of the time unless they have alot more E. Don't even try to out climb a spit or slow turn fight one. You will lose. Dive your 190 when in trouble and it's speed will help you slowly pull away. When the spit disengages you can then climb and get back into the fray.   :D

you 190d drivers aren't the only ones to do that.

ponyb drivers do that a LOT in mw. there's a couple 190 drivers in mw, that will more often than not, stay and fight.....for the fun of it. angel666 and larry come to mind..........
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Ack-Ack on November 23, 2009, 12:31:31 PM
Not very helpful to anyone.

You'd be very hard pressed to find any post from TESaw that was helpful and not a pathetic attempt at a troll/flame.


ack-ack
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: B4Buster on November 23, 2009, 12:35:01 PM
AKAK, how to you name the link like you did with "Boing 707"?
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Shuffler on November 23, 2009, 01:26:44 PM
   

[url=http://link]Text[/url]

 
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: dedalos on November 23, 2009, 01:53:41 PM
He's a new player asking for help and you respond with insults and mockery?  Classy.

Its allowed when you are defending the game.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Soulyss on November 23, 2009, 02:02:58 PM
Next time you see something you don't understand save the film and post it along with your question in the Help & Training section.  The answers posted here are plausible but with film you can see exactly what happened and hopefully answer the all important "why" question.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: FireDrgn on November 23, 2009, 02:20:58 PM
Good Post Soulyss!   Lots of unknown with out the film.

But im going to take a stab at it any ways. All depends on how far you travel down when you over shoot.   Im guessing you are over shooting his level flight path.  This is pretty much all wasted Energy or neutral at best.   All so if you dont watch your own flight path closley  the spit can "cut" the corner on you and shave off much of what you think is an advantage.

I would be will ing to bet a penny that your 1.0k "advatage" was all below his level flight path.


Oh an TEshaw here is 4 more for you !.?" :devil
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Getback on November 23, 2009, 03:06:34 PM
I have film where 2 planes dive on me. In the film you can see they had the greater speed. However because they either pulled up too soon or turned too soon I got both of them. I think I was doing like 174 ground speed and they were both in the 200s. They also made about 3 mistakes apiece, Overshot, climbed, and just flat out missed a sitting duck. It's one of my favorite films on what not to do.

You just cannot pull up immediately after diving in. You absolutely must extend to a wee bit at least. As far as the F6 goes it is no match for the spit xvi unless you are Greebo.  Regarding the d9 I would have to see the film.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Shuffler on November 23, 2009, 03:21:50 PM
I have film where 2 planes dive on me. In the film you can see they had the greater speed. However because they either pulled up too soon or turned too soon I got both of them. I think I was doing like 174 ground speed and they were both in the 200s. They also made about 3 mistakes apiece, Overshot, climbed, and just flat out missed a sitting duck. It's one of my favorite films on what not to do.

You just cannot pull up immediately after diving in. You absolutely must extend to a wee bit at least. As far as the F6 goes it is no match for the spit xvi unless you are Greebo.  Regarding the d9 I would have to see the film.

I would think the F6 is a good match for a spixteen.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: dedalos on November 23, 2009, 03:22:53 PM
I think what people miss sometimes - I still do that - is that the other plane does nit have to catch you.  1K or even 2K difference means nothing.  If the bad guy waits a few seconds before he follows you up he will be able to close the distance between you.  He wont catch you, but as you are hanging at the top nice and slow he will come within 1K or 800.  Them 50 cals will hit you from that distance as you sit there motionless.  Now, if you misjudged the distance between you two or the e states, he will be mach closer.

In either case, never climb straight up.  Either extend and climb or spiral.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: dedalos on November 23, 2009, 03:24:49 PM
I would think the F6 is a good match for a spixteen.

Funny man  :rofl
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Shuffler on November 23, 2009, 04:05:29 PM
Funny man  :rofl

F6 is so light and nimble....  could it be that all the 16s I run into in  my 38 are just noobs?
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: dedalos on November 23, 2009, 04:18:00 PM
F6 is so light and nimble....  could it be that all the 16s I run into in  my 38 are just noobs?

Could be, or they just get confused by the other 3 or 4 38s diving in  :D
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Shuffler on November 23, 2009, 04:18:56 PM
Could be, or they just get confused by the other 3 or 4 38s diving in  :D

Only takes one 38 for a 16.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: CAP1 on November 23, 2009, 04:37:11 PM
Could be, or they just get confused by the other 3 or 4 38s diving in  :D

<< usually stays out, and watches to learn. usually.  :neener:
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: ink on November 23, 2009, 04:39:17 PM
Only takes one 38 for a 16.

the person behind the stick of the 38 would have to be extremely well versed in ACM, and in said 38, but if the stick in 16 is just as good as stick in 38, well then I think the 38 would be in the tower in short order.

now I have serious respect for those who can whip around a 38, it is amazing to see, but the 16 is just a better "dog fighter"  

the spit 16's turn radius without flaps is smaller then  38 with full flaps.


INK
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: dedalos on November 23, 2009, 04:45:55 PM
<< usually stays out, and watches to learn. usually.  :neener:

Inpossible, HT has designed bombers to fly in formations of 3
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Ack-Ack on November 23, 2009, 04:58:18 PM
the person behind the stick of the 38 would have to be extremely well versed in ACM, and in said 38, but if the stick in 16 is just as good as stick in 38, well then I think the 38 would be in the tower in short order.

now I have serious respect for those who can whip around a 38, it is amazing to see, but the 16 is just a better "dog fighter"  

the spit 16's turn radius without flaps is smaller then  38 with full flaps.


INK

If the P-38 uses vertical turns it has a chance but has to get the kill in short order and a prolonged fight will end up going to the Spitfire.  Luckily for me I guess, most in here don't seem to be able to think beyond the 2D in regards to angles fighting and don't realize that vertical angles allow one to cut inside of a better turning plane's circle.

Loop fighting is another way to take advantage if the Spitfire driver is silly enough to play that game.  Just keep the P-38 off angle to avoid any nose to nose meets at the top of the loops and eventually the Spitfire will have to cut and run because of his energy state.  With very little amount of energy, the P-38 can loop endlessly just using flaps.


ack-ack
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: B4Buster on November 23, 2009, 07:25:26 PM
One thing I learned pretty early on: The enemy plane may not be able to quite climb up to you, but his bullets sure as hell can.
Title: Re: please explain
Post by: Shuffler on November 24, 2009, 09:38:10 AM
A gentle spiral will usually do the trick. I say gentle so it does not kill your E going up any more than necessary.