Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: M.C.202 on March 21, 2001, 11:51:00 PM
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Name aircraft X.
X was tested against a Bf109E and a Spitfire VB.
"The X and the Bf 109E carried out dogfighting at 6,000and 15,000 ft, the
latter aircraft having a hight advantage of 1,000 ft in each case."
"The Bf109 using the normal German fighter tactics of diving and zooming could only get
a fleeting shot."
"The Bf109 cannot compete with the X in a turn and even if the Bf109 is behind the X at
the start, the latter should be able to shake him off and get in a burst before two
complete turns have been carried out."
The Bf109 then tried diving on the X from above and continuing the dive down to ground
levelafter a short burst of fire. It was found however, that the X could follow and
catch up on the Bf109 in a dive of over 4,000 ft."
"The X then carried out a similar trial with the Spitfire V, and it was found that
although the X haa a superiorty of speed up to 15,000 ft, it was out-climbed and just
out-turned by the Spitfire."
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Shooting in the dark here...
It is a Macci 202?
Or a D.520?
Those would be my first guesses. I have more guesses available.
J_A_B
[This message has been edited by J_A_B (edited 03-22-2001).]
[This message has been edited by J_A_B (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Plane X = P-39
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Jochen said:
"Plane X = P-39"
Shot down in less than two complete turns.... :-)
Did you remember it, or check the books?
Not too bad for a bird many think was just about the worst one the U.S. made.
Anyone want more posts like this?
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Yes, cool post
P-39 was one of my "extra guess available" lol!
More please!!!
J_A_B
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Yep it was a P-39, and it was the P400 version, early D model that wasn't cleared for WEP boost. In WB they have the P-39D-2 cleared for WEP, which could outclimb a Zeke up to 15,000 feet or so. And they wonder why it shoots down so many 109s. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Here's what I want to see in AH:
P-39D/P400 USAAF Markings (no WEP, 20mm or 37mm loadout option)
P-39N or Q VVS Markings (WEP)
P-63 Free French Markings (Perk)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-22-2001).]
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I remembered reading that once on Joe Baughers site, I think I posted that quote to AGW too two years ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski
Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.
Sieg oder bolsevismus!
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Funked wrote:
P-63 Free French Markings (Perk)
Why Perked? Low production or low combat numbers?
Its certainly not a world beater in the least performancewise. Slightly slower than a mustang, a little better turning, and depending on which US 37mm gun goes in it, a BFG with a low muzzle velocity.
But I agree I would love to see it ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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At low levels it's just as fast as the P-51D, climb rate over 4000 fpm with water injection. A very good turning plane with excellent roll rate. Comparable to La-7.
It should be perked, as should La-7, Fw 190D-9, and all the other late-war low-production jobs. Hell anything after 1942 should have some perk price.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-22-2001).]
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It should be perked, as should La-7, Fw 190D-9, and all the other late-war low-production jobs.
Well, personally I don't really consider the La7 and the Fw190-D9 in the same category, at least in regards to your above statement. There were something like 5,700+ La7's, and there were only around 700 Dora's (both approximate numbers). In terms of total production numbers, proportional numbers to total fighter strength, or by many other standards such as time in combat, the La7 is much more comparable to the Fw190A8 or the P-51D.
Just as long as such principals are applied evenly accross the board, its fine by me. In regards to the "late war low production" standards I kinda look at it to see if less than 1,000 were produced ( <1,000 = low production) or if they only saw less than 6 months of war as my personal standards ( < 6 months = ultra late war). Of course that is a "non-performance" standard, which has to be looked at as well.
Hell anything after 1942 should have some perk price.
Well.. as long as we do it that way, I can live with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And I actually LIKE this idea, except for the fact that I think it will widen the performance gap between skilled pilots and average pilots even more than the current system.
Just don't lump the La7 into the same "production and importance" class as a Dora or in a "performance" class with a Spit XIV. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now that my current rant is all said and done (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif), IMO, I think we could include an unperked P-63C into the arena without unbalancing it, in any way.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-22-2001).]
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I'll post more "I.D. from flight tests" after I finish my move.
We (the boss, er wife and I) are buying a house, and all but two books are packed for the move.
I HATE moving, too many hobbies, scuba, hunting & shooting, aircraft history,
fishing, WWII re-enacting, SCA, the '43jeep, all the BOOKS (150 boxes of hardbound alone)....
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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The USAAF 350th FG had P-39's and they used them into late 1944 in the Med/Italian theatre.
From the 350th history:
.......While flying 10 missions, comprising 75 sorties,
on this day the group, in the face of intense antiaircraft fire, destroyed 1 highway
bridge and 2 railroad bridges, 2 air warning installation, 1 barracks building
and 2 trucks, and inflicted many casualties on enemy personnel and heavy damage on numerous other military buildings and vehicles. Just as one flight of six P-39
dive bombers was completing an attack on enemy communications in the Grosseto-Pisa
area, they were intercepted by 10 or more ME-109's and FW-190's. Gallantly ignoring
the odds against them, and despite damage to their own aircraft, the P-39 pilots
unhesitatingly turned into the larger hostile formation and attacked with such
skill and determination that five enemy fighters were shot down, two were damaged
and the remainder driven from the battle area..."
from http://www.msawest.com/devilhawkmedcamp4.htm (http://www.msawest.com/devilhawkmedcamp4.htm)
-Westy
(edited to remove pix due to general lack of interest and to make topic load faster for talks on the FW. As if we really needed to talk about them...again..)
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-22-2001).]
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vermillion comparing the la7 to the 190a8 is silly
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D9 and A8 were close in production numbers as well m8
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Sturm6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron
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Sturm there were about twice as many A-8's as D-9's.
Verm there were 291 combat-ready La-7's in early 1945. I'm sure they had a lot more in the production lines, but it is still a late-war-wonder, first entering combat in Fall 1944, like the Dora.
Funny that you compare it to the Spitfire F. Mk. XIV, which was in combat in January 1944!
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Funked, don't use one number out of context. Start a couple of paragraphs up from where you grabbed that number.
On the issue of when it entered combat, FYI the Mustang started reaching 8th AF units in Jun 44 (source America's Hundred Thousand).
- "Service flight tests of the La7 began in mid september 1944, and were conducted by the 63rd Guards Fighter Air Corps at the First Baltic Front for one month. Thirty La7's, mostly built by the Moscow aircraft production plant, were assigned to the tests. <snip> During the tests, the regiment made 462 sorties, during which 55 enemy aircraft were shot down for the loss of eight La7s (half of which was non combat) and three pilots."
On the issue of numbers, your being very misleading, when you quote 291.
- During October and November 1944 La-7s began to be used widely on all fronts. <snip> More than 2,000 La7's, mainly built by major Plant No. 21, were sent to the front up to the wars end. <snip> By Early 1945 there were 398 La7's in front line air force units, and 291 were combat ready. This was equivalent to about 6% of all serviceable fighters. By the end of the war this had increased to 15%. <snip> A total of 5,753 La-7s were built by the three plants up to the wars end.
Now, I don't have numbers for the P-51D when it comes to "deployed in front line service" or "Serviceable on XXX date" (if anyone has please share them), but the total production up to wars end was 8,056.
Honestly, Just how many of those were actually in front line service, AND combat ready? I dont' know myself, but I will leave up to someone else to research.
BUT if you want to compare like numbers to like numbers its 5,753 to 8,056, not 291.
For comparisons purposes with other AH American aircraft (all production numbers from America's Hundred Thousand):
P-51D 8,056
F6F-5 6,436
La-7 5,753
P-47 5,264 (D25's thru D30)
P-38L 3,923
F4U-1D 2,800 (including FG-1's)
So if you use the same type of data, you will see that the La7 was as numerous and important as many of the US Models in WWII.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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you will see that the La7 was as numerous and important as many of the US Models in WWII.
That's laughable and you know it. A fighter that only saw 3-4 months duty in numbers greater than 400 or so, being compared in importance to the planes that broke the back of the Luftwaffe, IJAAF, and IJNAF.
PS I put P-51D in the same "late war wonder" category as La-7, Fw 190D-9, Spitfire F. Mk. XIV, Me 109K-4, etc. It had a far greater influence on the war than the others, but by virtue of late introduction date and performance, it goes in that category.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Again funked until someone can show me similar "on the front and serviceable" numbers for aircraft like the P-51D (which I'm just using as a comparison point) how can you compare them without similar data?
Again your taking the worst possible number you can find for the VVS, but then using the best possible numbers for the Allies.
When we can compare Apples to Apples, and Oranges to Oranges, then we'll talk.
Otherwise its must a propaganda game comparing two sets of data that have nothing in common.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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No matter what numbers you use, La-7 was only in combat for about 6 months, and therefore falls into my definition of late war wonder. Which is all I was saying in the first place way up in this thread.
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
On the issue of when it entered combat, FYI the Mustang started reaching 8th AF units in Jun 44 (source America's Hundred Thousand).
Now, hold on a minute. If the P-51 did not reach the 8th AF until June of 1944, how do we explain two full fighter groups of P-51s appearing over Berlin in early March of 1944? P-51B Mustangs first arrived in October of 1943, and were assigned to the 354th FG of the 9th AF. Shortly thereafter, the first Group was re-assigned to the 8th AF, and began escorting the heavies in December. In February of '44, the 357th and 4th Fighter Groups went operational with the P-51B. So, long before June of '44, Mustangs were operating in very significant numbers in the ETO. See the chart below for the operational dates by type.
(http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/8thAF1.gif)
My regards,
Widewing
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Very cool chart!
It would be great to apply some models to that chart just for more info.
BTW, what are the yellow bars for? Is that when they went "active" with that plane?
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Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer
A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/) for AH articles and training info!
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Originally posted by Lephturn:
Very cool chart!
It would be great to apply some models to that chart just for more info.
BTW, what are the yellow bars for? Is that when they went "active" with that plane?
That's correct. The yellow bar indicates when the unit went operational.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, I'll let you and Francis Dean argue about that one. Thats straight from America's Hundred Thousand.
And its a reference to the "D" model, not the B or C
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Well, including units operating both the B and D is fair given that the had near identical performance. If we take the October-November time frame during which the La-7 began to reach normal frontline units, the 8th AF had 12-13 FG's using the Mustang, the 9th AF had 2-3 FG's, the 15th AF had 4 FG's. That 18-20 fighter groups each fielding about 50 Mustangs on a mission(they had more then this, but would generally fly in formations of 48). That's 800-1000 P-51's active in Europe, and doesn't even count the numerous RAF squadrons that operated the Mustang. In early 1945 this was up to 15 8th AF groups, and a total of about 1100 Mustangs in US service in the ETO. There were probably at least 2-300 RAF Mustangs as well. That's quite a bit more then 300 La-7s.
Sable
352nd FG
[This message has been edited by Sable (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Widewing, I'll let you and Francis Dean argue about that one. Thats straight from America's Hundred Thousand.
And its a reference to the "D" model, not the B or C
Verm, Diz wouldn't argue with me. He knows that the P-51B arrived in Britain as early as September of 1943. If you turn to page 332 of America's 100K, you can follow the deployment from its beginning. You have to go to the bottom of page 335 to see when the D model began to arrive. Mustangs were Mustangs. Throughout 1944, many squadrons flew a mix of B, C and D models. A useful reference to get is O'Leary's VIII Fighter Command at War (The Long Reach) published by Osprey. It's only recently been released, and is a keeper for about $20.
My regards,
Widewing