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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vector on December 22, 2001, 06:43:00 AM

Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 22, 2001, 06:43:00 AM
S!

Haven't seen this topic for while so it's time to bring it up again. With luck HTC is so in x'mas mood that they'll model either of these terrific jugs. Further why not modify AH's current D-25 to M or N? I've never quite understood why to model 2 such a similar jugs like D-25 and D-30 are? Not offence to those who flies D-25 regurlarly       :)


P-47N
ENGINE:Pratt & Whitney R-2800-73 Double Wasp 2,800 h.p.
ARMAMENT:8 - .50 cal. machine guns & up to 3,000 lbs. of ordnance
WING SPAN:42 feet, 7 inches
LENGTH:36 feet, 1 inches
HEIGHT:14 feet, 8 inches
MAXIMUM SPEED:505 mph       :eek:
RANGE (W/ EXTERNAL TANKS):2,350 miles
SERVICE CEILING:30,000 feet

P-47M's top speed was officially 470mph, but it was able to achive 488mph at the tests. Also R-2800 engine was tested at additional boost, which gave it 3600hp! Engine worked without any malfunctions 250 hours. Tough engine!
Someone with better information of these great fighters, please give some.

     (http://www.kolumbus.fi/cool/p47n.jpg)    
P-47N

EDIT: As a perk plane of course!


  (http://www.kolumbus.fi/cool/sig1.jpg)      
--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: vector ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 22, 2001, 07:18:00 AM
Hmm, there's one big problem tho; P-47M (J?) climbs 4900 fpm at SL and 4400 fpm at 20K!!
That would be too much for leather-wearing boys to handle!
 :)


--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Sancho on December 22, 2001, 03:34:00 PM
Here's some comparison data:

               P-47D-25        P-47M-1         P-47N-1
Max Speed       430             475             465
Max Speed(SI)   690             760             750
At Alt          30 000          32 000          32 000
At Alt(SI)      9 140           9 750           9 750
Ceiling         42 000          41 000          43 000
Ceiling(SI)     12 800          12 500          13 100
Range           1 030           530             2 000
Range(SI)       1 660           852             3 220

Source: [i]Republic P-47 Thunderbolt[/i], by Martin Velek and Valerij Roman, MBI, 1992.

As much as I like the P-47M (and I still want to see it in AH), if I had to choose between the two, I think the N should be modelled first.  It would be the better suited for the main arena.  Here's why:

The specific variant modelled should be the P-47N-5-RE.  550 units (of an overall 1816 P-47Ns)  were produced and saw action in the PTO.  In contrast, only 130 total P-47M-1s were produced.

Now, arguably the M would be easier for HTC to model.  Its 3d model would be identical to the P-47D-30 only with a different skin.  (The skin would have to be a 56th FG scheme since they were the only unit to get the M.   ;) )  The N would take a little bit more work for the elongated and clipped wings.  

Both these "uber jugs" would be excellent additions to the AH planeset.

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Sancho ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Urchin on December 22, 2001, 06:04:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by vector:
Hmm, there's one big problem tho; P-47M (J?) climbs 4900 fpm at SL and 4400 fpm at 20K!!
That would be too much for leather-wearing boys to handle!
  :)


--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"


No, as much as you idiots might think otherwise, we'd still deal with it.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Hobodog on December 22, 2001, 09:56:00 PM
Lets be nice and Take the XP-72 Suepr Jug instead. Just cuz the gerrys think they can deal with us. I wish we could have it them leather-crotchs would die at the stick. 4 37mm. Not too mention 4200 raw horses.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Hobodog on December 22, 2001, 09:57:00 PM
And thats without boost.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vermillion on December 22, 2001, 10:32:00 PM
I'm personally inclined to the N model myself since its a much more representative model.

Hell, the luftwaffles would get really pissed if I was running this game. IMO I think the F4U-4 and the P-47N, are just the equivalent of the 109G10(K4), 190D9, and Spit XIV of the game. So I wouldn't even perk em.   :p
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 23, 2001, 01:41:00 AM
S!
Sancho thx for the info, here's a citation from An online World War II aviation history magazine (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html)
There's a list of sources:
RESOURCES:
Warren M. Bodie, Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt.
Roger Freeman, Republic Thunderbolt.
Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, The American Fighter.
David R. McLaren, Beware The Thunderbolt: The 56th FG in WWII.
 
It 's about M & J, dunno about the final differences between these two.

The P-47M was, essentially, developed collaterally with the XP-47J. The "J" was fitted with a high output version of the P&W R-2800. Specifically, the R-2800-57. This engine made 2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm at 35,000 feet. This is in War Emergency Power. The aircraft actually attained 507 mph at an altitude of 34,300 feet. 2,800 hp is 133% of rated power. At military power (100%), the XP-47J could sustain 470 mph. 435 mph was attained at 81% of its rated power (1,700 hp). All performance figures were obtained at 34,300 feet. The "J" model was an especially good climbing fighter too. It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. Now that's an interceptor! Yet it had a usable range of 1,075 miles. Rather impressive, don't you think? No, this was not a stripped down hotrod. It was fully armed and carried ballast in the wings equal to 267 rds per gun. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more.

And sancho, you already have 56th FG scheme, how about 348th FG for next one?
 ;)


--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Daff on December 23, 2001, 07:14:00 AM
Vector, the only unit to use M's was the 56th FG.
The climbrate quoted above is for the XP-47J, a prototype, that never went into production. The P-47M's climbrate is a lot more moderate, at 3600fpm with WEP.
The P-47N had  a initial climbrate of a mere 2800fpm, but that's with 3.000lbs worth of extra fuel.

Daff
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Broes on December 23, 2001, 07:44:00 AM
Whats wrong with the other 4 p47 types?! I had rather see 1 totaly new plane then 5 new variants of something we already have 4 versions of!

Broes
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 23, 2001, 11:16:00 AM
S!

Thanks for the info Daff, yes I know 56th got P-47M's, but you jug freaks already have D-11 in your colors!  :D
Oh, that's quite confusing page about M, it's M page with lot of information on J.
Btw, can you guys recommend a good P-47 book with lots of technical info in it?


Broes what do you mean of having 4 P-47's? In AH we have 3 (D-11,D-25,D-30) whereas 4x109's, 4x190's. P-47 had a major role in ETO and some in pasific too. We have 109G-10 and 190D-9, late war monsters, why not one jug monster too? I doubt it'd come too popular at MA tho.
But you're right about having totally new model, but considering the workload of HTC, P-47M would be easier to produce (and N with slight wing modification?).

Hey it's x'mas, it's permissible to dream..
 :)

--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Tac on December 23, 2001, 12:17:00 PM
Yes, and only 1 version of P-38. Unfair! Paint it green! Paint it green!  :)  :D
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Sancho on December 23, 2001, 02:11:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by vector:
Btw, can you guys recommend a good P-47 book with lots of technical info in it?

Vector, the book I mentioned above is quite good.  Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, by Martin Velek and Valerij Roman, MBI, 1997.  ISBN 80-902238-0-X.  In Czech and English.  ;)   Looks like this:

 (http://www.kithobbyist.com/HRCappuccino/articles/P-47%20book.jpg)

Things I like about this book: it has a performance chart comparing major variants from the P-47B to the P-47N.  The chart lacks only climb rate but that info is scattered around inside the text.  This book has simply the best 3-view drawings of the P-47 I've seen.  Also, it contains several pages on the P-47 in Soviet service--something I haven't seen anywhere else.  The book was cheap too: $14.  :)


Vector, you mention Bodie's book above.  Warren Bodie's book is the largest single book (recently published) devoted to the P-47 that I know of, but in my opinion it is very poorly organized.  It appeals more to people looking for a lot of pictures and anecdotes about the economic and political forces that drove P-47 development.  There is some technical data scattered throughout, but notably absent are any performance charts.  There's charts that will tell you how to tell a P-47s exact variant and production block by looking at the tail number though, if you're in to that.  :)
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: eddiek on December 23, 2001, 07:49:00 PM
vector, I feel your pain, been asking for the P47M for about a year now....  :(
I seem to recall Pyro saying something about not wanting to model another Jug.....his choice, but if you're gonna model 4 109's and 4 190's, why not add another Jug?    :confused:
Yep, the P47M would be a monster, no doubt about it, and the higher the fight got, the better it would be.  For once, I would like to be able to start toward a fight in a Jug and know that I can be co-alt with a 109, WITHOUT having to grab alt in the opposite direction before I head in to do battle.  Oddly enough, it should have similiar range as the 109's, so it would not be something to hang around a long time in, as fuel would be critical after a little while, same as in the 109's.
Heck, Pyro, perk the thing, but please, please, give us the P47M!!!  :cool:
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 24, 2001, 02:24:00 AM
S!

Eddiek, we just need to hope for the best and keep spamming these boards over and over again with P-47M posts   :)
Sooner or later Pyro gets bored and starts to make "that dang jug" or he cancel our accounts...
I would like to be able to start toward a fight in a Jug and know that I can be co-alt with a 109, WITHOUT having to grab alt in the opposite direction before I head in to do battle.
Amen!

Btw sancho, couldn't find it from amazon. Do you know where to buy it from the net? Thx!


--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: vector ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: GRUNHERZ on December 24, 2001, 02:32:00 AM
Its a tossup for me, on one hand some P47M had0 that cool dark blue or black paint jobd while on the the P47N is a better more useful plane all around.  either one would be great and should cost around what a Tempest does.

Bring either one to AH very soon HTC! Or else.   ;)
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Furious on December 24, 2001, 03:06:00 AM
Quote
but if you're gonna model 4 109's and 4 190's, why not add another Jug?  


This is sort of a disengenuous statement.  The LW only had 2 single engine fighter variants, the Me109's and Fw190's.  These are represented in AH by 9 aircraft.  The US had many single engine fighter variants and they are represented in AH by the P-51 (2), P-47 (3), F4U (4), F6F (1) for a total of 10 aircraft.  Pretty even.  

But, as you can see HT can't add to the  LW single engine fighter stable without it being a 109 or 190.

Eventually, I hope that AH will have every variant that saw significant numbers produced or saw action or is just plain interesting.  I hope we get both the "N" and the "M", as well as many others.


F.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: eddiek on December 24, 2001, 08:39:00 AM
Furious, what I was referring to was something I seem to remember Pyro saying, which was almost literally that he did not want to do another model of the P47.
HTC is known for modelling planes others don't.  Any WW2 sim has to have the normal "staple" planes, the 109's, 190's, P51, Spits, etc;  I have not seen another sim that has modeled the P47M, and I think it would be another star in HTC's crown if they added it.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Am0n on December 24, 2001, 11:48:00 AM
Sounds great! i want to fly that monster  :)
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: ra on December 24, 2001, 11:52:00 AM
The jugs we have now are already late war aircraft, and they do pretty well in the MA.  There are sooo many other aircraft we need which were more significant in the war. We should save some of these uber planes for after we have filled out the planeset.

ra
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 24, 2001, 12:34:00 PM
S!

Furious statement sounds reasonable as well as ra's. I agree there's many interesting planes to model before P47M & N, but I'd like to see either in AH asap.
What comes to P-47's success in MA, I think it's not so great. There are some squads that are dedicated to P-47's (     ;) ), but after all it's not doing so great:
Tour 23 k/d's so far:
D-11: 1.04 (770/735)
D-25: 0.95 (1633/1714)
D-30: 0.75 (4509/5992) (used much on jabo missions, tho)

Ok, we can make an agreement;
1. HTC makes 1x P-38
2. HTC makes P-47 M or N
We can add these both in ver 1.09.
Fine, sounds like a deal, ok Pyro, you have our permission to start making P-47M or N (we'll let you decide, after all we're not ungrateful tards).
    :)

EDIT: And I still can't figure out why model D-25 and D-30? Why not just modify either to M or N?


--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: vector ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: GRUNHERZ on December 25, 2001, 12:32:00 AM
They should model a Fiat G55 or Re2005 if they really wanna diffrent, and P47N would be more diffrent lokking than a P47M.

Frankly im gonna throw a fit if those three arent in 1.09.    :D
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: mrsid2 on December 25, 2001, 05:13:00 AM
The D30 is deadly enough, no need for another jug. It would be perked probably anyway then.

More variety is better than 12 different jugs IMO. And don't take me wrong I love flying the thing..
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: -ammo- on December 25, 2001, 01:24:00 PM
I think either the M or N would make fine additions to the AH planeset. Both were awesome AC and would compete well in the arena. I hope to see either one of these planes.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Karnak on December 25, 2001, 01:49:00 PM
Compete well?

Yeesh, 505mph isn't "compete", its "dominate".  :D

A 4,400ft per minute climb rate at 20,000ft is staggering in a WWII fighter.

All these numbers would indicate that the P-47 was the best, bar none, no competition, fighter of WWII.  With numbers like those I don't see why people would ever mention the Spit XIV, Fw190D-9, P-51D or F4U-4.  It would be blindingly obvious which fighter was best and there would be no debates about the issue.

Maybe you're getting that I am a little skeptical of these numbers.  Well, I am.  I wonder if people are quoting test machines, one offs and custom tweaks to the P-47M/N?

If the performance numbers were really that good, why is it so hidden from the WWII aviation community?
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: -ammo- on December 25, 2001, 02:15:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
Compete well?

Yeesh, 505mph isn't "compete", its "dominate".   :D

A 4,400ft per minute climb rate at 20,000ft is staggering in a WWII fighter.

All these numbers would indicate that the P-47 was the best, bar none, no competition, fighter of WWII.  With numbers like those I don't see why people would ever mention the Spit XIV, Fw190D-9, P-51D or F4U-4.  It would be blindingly obvious which fighter was best and there would be no debates about the issue.

Maybe you're getting that I am a little skeptical of these numbers.  Well, I am.  I wonder if people are quoting test machines, one offs and custom tweaks to the P-47M/N?

If the performance numbers were really that good, why is it so hidden from the WWII aviation community?

And your skepticism is well founded. Those numbers are a little high. Now keep in mind that that TS for the M is at 30K and I believe a little high. I got references (I aint gonna dig them out now, but later) that if I recall the TS is more like 480 at alt. Still very respectable.  But at low alt the AC would not dominate.  The M has *very* short legs, but that is the reason it had such good numbers. All the weight savings. The N is a very good AC with lots of range.  Range in AH is not a big factor, well in the MA anyway.  You just cater your sorties around your range limitation. Ask folks like eagler who drive 109F's, and other LA5 drivers :)

And that Climbrate...hmmm those are the highest numbers I have seen to date.  Now I doi recall 4000+ at sea level for a light M, and a very respectable 3000+ climbrate at 20K. Then again I need to get the bodie book out. Its Christmas day though...
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 25, 2001, 03:11:00 PM
S!

Yes ammo, those climbrates were for XP-47J as Sancho and Daff stated above, my bad. M and N had much lower numbers.


From Baugher's website:
P-47M-1-RE: maximum speed 400 mph at 10,000 feet, 453 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 470 mph at 30,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 3500 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2650 feet per minute at 20,000 feet
P-47N-5-RE maximum speed 397 mph at 10,000 feet, 448 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 460 mph at 30,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 2770 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2550 feet per minute at 20,000 feet

EDIT: Btw, the 505mph tops speed for P-47N was found from  Cavanaugh Flight Museum (http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com/Aircraft/P-47/Page1.html) web site. Uh oh, you can't trust to nobody on these days..
 :)


--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: vector ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Buzzbait on December 25, 2001, 06:18:00 PM
S!

Personally I think we need the Razorback with the paddle blade prop.  P-47D21 would do nicely.  This aircraft was crucial in WWII.  In actuality, if the BIG WEEK scenario had been historically based, there would have been 80% Razorback Jugs with paddle blades on the Allied side, and 20% P-51's and P-38's.  The Razorback Jug was THE key to victory over the Luftwaffe in the Battle over Germany in January to May '44 when the really important clashes took place.

The 200 production P-47M was insignificant in its effect in comparison.

The P-47N was definitely useful in the Pacific, and was produced in considerable numbers, but it wasn't an aircraft on which the outcome of an airwar rested.  By the time it was in service, the Japanese were not in a position to contest the supremacy of the air over Japan.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vermillion on December 25, 2001, 10:59:00 PM
Contrary to popular belief the P-47N was very significant in WWII.

It was more significant than the Me109-K4, the Fw190-D9, and the Spit XIV.  All aircraft that the common players know and love and think are very important.

In fact it was more significant than the K4 and the D9 combined.  

Its just that the Jug was never very glamoress, and it participated in a part of the war that "was already won". Which is horseshit, since the casulties during late 1944 and 1945 in the Pacific were some of the highest of the war.

Read up on the history of the P-47N, you might be suprised.

I know I was.   :)

[ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: Vermillion ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: gripen on December 25, 2001, 11:59:00 PM
Hm... The Spitfire XIV reached combat at spring  1944, the Bf 109K4 late 1944 as well as the D9, the P-47N reached combat at may 1945. In the 8th AF  the P-51 was more numerous than the P-47 from May 1944 and from July the P-51 was more numerous than the P-47 and P-38 together.

gripen
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: eddiek on December 26, 2001, 08:02:00 AM
P-47M performance was as follows:

Max speed: 470-480 mph @ 28,500 ft. Climb, at max. gross weight (including three 75 gallon drop tanks): 4.9 minutes to 15,000 feet at 2,600 rpm (1700 hp). Reportedly, the "M" could reach 20,000 feet in 5.7 minutes at military power (2,100 hp @ 2,800 rpm). 20,000 feet in 4.75 minutes in WEP (2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm). This is with full internal fuel and ammo. No external stores or drop tanks. In other words, normal load, clean configuration.


This is from this website:http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html

It gives reference to Warren Brodie's book, not sure if that book has info to support the above data.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vermillion on December 26, 2001, 08:28:00 AM
Gripen, there were more P-47N's than there were Spit XIV's.  There were more P-47N's than Dora's and K4's combined.

They also flew alot of combat missions, and scored a very large number of air to air kills.

Like I said, look up the history of the P-47N before you judge my statements.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Urchin on December 26, 2001, 12:04:00 PM
I'd be all for the introduction of the P-47N.  Hell, introduce the M version to, that'll give you guys the 'hotrod' version to play around with.  

I'd say introduce the Spit XIV unperked as well, but since that would render the Jug and Pony (and Lightning) obsolete, as well as all the German planes, I supposed y'all wouldn't like that to much.  Well, you SAY you wouldn't care, but I think you'd change your mind once it got here.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Karnak on December 26, 2001, 12:39:00 PM
Verm,

I don't think that numbers mean significant.

That said, I don't think that the Spit XIV, G-10/K-4 or D-9 are really significant to the war either.  Simply due to their introduction date I think they are more significant than the P-47N, but that is not sayinging a lot.

How do we define "significant" in this context?  Numbers produced?  Changing the outcome of the war? Numbers that saw service? Number of enemy killed?

To be truly significant the aircraft would have had to change the outcome of the war, and how many aircraft can lay claim to that? None? One? A few?

Aircraft I think were significant in the closing year and a half of the war:

A6M series
B-17
B-24
B-29
Bf109G-6 series
F4U-1 series
F6F series
Fw190A series
Halifax
Il-2 series
Il-10 series
Ki-44 series
Ki-61 series
Ki-84 series
La-5FN
La-7
Lancaster
Mosquito NF varients
P-47D series
P-51D series
Pe-2 series
Typhoon MkIb
Yak-9U series

I think these aircraft were significant because they saw heavy use or had significant impact on operations, not because they did well against their adversaries.  You'll note that I don't see any Spitfire or German wonder weapon as significant in this time period.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: gripen on December 26, 2001, 03:13:00 PM
Vermillion,
Well, actually I wondered your "late 1944" claim when there were no P-47Ns in combat areas and also that ETO stuff. But lets look at numbers.

P-47N
Something like 1800 built but just 4 fighter groups used it in combat (around 500 planes) and relatively short time of about 3 months.

Spitfire XIV
Something like 1000 built and I quess much more than 500 of these saw combat service during about a year of service.

Fw 190D-9
Something like 650 delivered (1500 numbers allocated) but nobody knows for sure. I quess around 500 of these saw combat service during 5-6 month period.

Bf 109K-4
Nobody knows exact amount of production but I quess something like 700 were delivered 1944 and over 1000 at 1945. I quess something like 1000 of these saw combat service during 5-6 month period.

Generally it is everybody's own opinion which plane is more signifiqant, but to my eyes the P-47N appears to be quite trivial plane if we look it's war time service. Well, it certainly saw more action than the P-47M.

BTW How many escort missions P-47Ns flew in combat? I saw a number but it sounded so low that I decided to ask confirmation...

gripen

[ 12-26-2001: Message edited by: gripen ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: funkedup on December 26, 2001, 03:25:00 PM
P-47N Ace:  http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/perdomo/perdomo.htm (http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/perdomo/perdomo.htm)
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: gripen on December 26, 2001, 03:33:00 PM
Thanks Funked!
Well, sounds that the P-47N had something in common with the P-47M: "A total of 53 P-47’s from all three squadrons of the 507th were scheduled to participate, but after mechanical failures and aborts only 38 reached the target area."

gripen
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vermillion on December 26, 2001, 04:32:00 PM
Grippen, the numbers I have generally seen for the D9 and the K4, are about 700 total produced for each.

And I hope you don't honestly think that all of each aircraft type "saw combat" to the same standard that your using for the 47N.  Many many were destroyed on the ground, and the Germans had an overall low sortie rate due to an extreme lack of fuel and spare parts, plus very few trained pilots.

In the end section of America's Hundred Thousand there is a section that goes into some of the combat history of the P-47N. I would type it in, but I'm short on time. But I think I can say that it saw quite a bit of combat.

I guess my point is that many of the people on this board, think the war ended on VE day. It didn't by far. In fact the last several months of the war, were the bloodiest and costliest battles of the war for America. The Phillipines, Guam, Okinawa, and Iwo Jima, to just name a few. The war may have been a forgone conclusion in the larger scheme of things, but for people to insinuate that the combat service of the men and equipment of that period "didn't really count, because it was already over" is ludicrous. And if you think (in reference to everyone, not just Grippen) , that there weren't any Japanese planes left to shoot down, thats wrong too.

I'll leave this thread with just a few facts from a book I'm reading right now about Iwo Jima, called "Flags of Our Fathers".

The Marines fought in World War II for nearly 43 months. Yet in one month on Iwo Jima, one third of their total deaths occurred.

In the 1,364 days from Pearl Harbor to the Japanese surrender, with millions of Americans fighting on global battle fronts, only 353 Americans were awarded Medals of Honor, the nations highest decoration for Valor. Marines accounted for 84 of these decorations, with an astonishing 27 awarded for just one months action on Iwo Jima, a record unsurpassed by any battle in US history.

But that was just a battle of "only a month" against a defeated enemy, so it doesn't really count. Right?
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: gripen on December 26, 2001, 05:11:00 PM
Vermillion,
You can find several versions of the Bf 109K production numbers (as well as numbers for the Fw 190D-9) but all are mostly just estimates. Anyway, there were pretty certainly much more than 700 Bf 109Ks, even before 1945.

And I have NOT claimed that serious war was over after VE day but that the P-47N saw pretty short combat service (if compared to other three) and just four fighter groups used it in combat.

gripen
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: eddiek on December 26, 2001, 05:12:00 PM
Well, I am actually enjoying these replies.  Haven't seen the usual griping and whining.  The reference to "significance" is refreshing, although a bit misguided IMO.
Kinda hard to take those comments seriously when the posts above and below this thread are calling for the 109G14 and the 109K4, at least for me.
The significance issue is not all that relevant for me.  Why should it be, when the TA-152, which was made in ridiculously low numbers and of which few saw action, was rammed down our throats?  The P47M was produced in similiar or higher numbers, and was in the theater by D-Day 1944 from all I have read.  True, I only know of 3 squadrons that were outfitted with it, and true, it had mechanical problems, but so what?  HTC doesn't model in the "glitches" associated with the real life birds, or we would see N1K2's falling out of the sky due to engine failures, 109G's unexpectedly catching fire in flight to some problem with the engines, etc...
My opinion now, just as it was over a year ago when I brought up the subject of the M/N model Jugs, is the same.  Please model the plane, preferably the M.  Screw the short range, who needs long range in the MA anyhow?
And perk it, similiar cost as the Tempest or the F4U4.  Model the Spit14 while your doing it too......the RAF has long needed this plane.  While people have asked for it, detractors have claimed that it not be introduced, yet the same ones trying to keep it out of the arena at the same time clamor for added power and speed for their LW rides.  It's way past time for the double standards to stop.  
Just my $.02...........  ;)
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Hristo on December 26, 2001, 05:56:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eddiek:
 Why should it be, when the TA-152, which was made in ridiculously low numbers and of which few saw action, was rammed down our throats?

Hmm, I believe there was a pol started by Pyro on this. Ta 152 won quite a lot of votes.

Anyway, who cares about super Jugs when 262 is modeled ?  ;). I agree on Spit XIV part though.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: -ammo- on December 26, 2001, 07:14:00 PM
From Warren Bodies book--

P-47N-


special notes for the M and N. It had a longer wing span than all other P-47 models. Wing span was 42' 6 13/16". All other P-47 models had a 40' 9" span. total wing area was 322 sq feet. For the N only-- M/T weight was 10,988 lbs. Normal weight, int fuiel was 13,823 lbs. with 2x300 gal ext's, 20,160 lbs.

roll rate was improved over all other P-47 models for the N. 98 degrees a second @ 300 mph.  the D28 which was the best in this category of performance prior to the N did 79 degrees a second @ 300 mph. Bodie also states that the N would turn with the D28, the best turning P-47 till that point.

The M or N would be a substantial increase in performance over either one of the P-47 models in AH.


V/R

ammo
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: popeye on December 27, 2001, 04:54:00 AM
Jug drivers should have a plane to spend their perkies on.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on December 27, 2001, 12:44:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Buzzbait:
S!
Personally I think we need the Razorback with the paddle blade prop.  P-47D21 would do nicely.  This aircraft was crucial in WWII.

That sounds pretty cool too! I recall some topics on this boards about D-11 having a paddle blade prop IRL (retrofitted?)? Btw, how paddle blade prop differs from traditional one? Is there any good articles of jug's paddle plade prop on the net? Sorry for dragging this little offtopic...
Thx!

--------------------
vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Fariz on December 27, 2001, 01:07:00 PM
At the moment USSR is represented in AH by 4 planes, Japan by 3. So, number of only jug variants = number of japanese planes. Seems unfair, is not it?

I hope M and N will not be modeled any soon, because its still zillion other planes which shall be modeled first. I find it really strange that AH still do not have, for example, Stuka in its hangars.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on December 27, 2001, 01:19:00 PM
Fariz has a good point but I think it's limited. As much as people want new planes, they don't use it.
The comunauty begged for a new Jap plane, I bet the D30 is still way more used than the KI67. Most of us are expecting allied planes to help us revive the books/movies we saw about the period.
I think stricly marketing wise, a wide variety/types of allied planes is more justified than a wide variety/type of Jap planes. Imagine the full set of Ki43s like, great for scenarios, but in the MA, would they justify the time HTC took to model them?
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Karnak on December 27, 2001, 01:28:00 PM
Frenchy,

A Ki-84-Ia Hayate would see more use than any P-47.  How can a P-47 be justified given its lower usage?

In my opinion it doesn't have to be.  Some aircraft need to be added just to fill a role and to make scenarios possible.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: -ammo- on December 27, 2001, 06:20:00 PM
cant we have both? Russian, Japanese, whatever cratres and a shiny new P-47M or N.

look skyward fellas.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Sancho on December 27, 2001, 07:17:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Fariz:
At the moment USSR is represented in AH by 4 planes, Japan by 3. So, number of only jug variants = number of japanese planes. Seems unfair, is not it?

I agree completely. Bring us more Russian planes!  Start with a shiny new P-47D-21 in Russian 11th ZBAP markings!!  :D

Just kidding, I really would like to see a bigger Russian and Japanese planeset; the CT and scenarios demand these planes.  But as a jug fan, I also want to see a late war jug, especially for spending MA perks.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: GRUNHERZ on December 27, 2001, 07:44:00 PM
Whats a ZBAP?
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: fdiron on December 27, 2001, 09:00:00 PM
In AH, P47 is meat on the table below 10k.  La7 or La5 can run them down then kill them.  They are just not much fun to fly 'historically'.  By historically I mean climbing to 30k and waiting for bandits to climb to engage you.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: -ammo- on December 27, 2001, 09:28:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron:
In AH, P47 is meat on the table below 10k.  La7 or La5 can run them down then kill them.  They are just not much fun to fly 'historically'.  By historically I mean climbing to 30k and waiting for bandits to climb to engage you.

man the P-47 is an absolute blast to fly in AH.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: eddiek on December 28, 2001, 07:39:00 AM
Quote
Hmm, I believe there was a pol started by Pyro on this. Ta 152 won quite a lot of votes.

Anyway, who cares about super Jugs when 262 is modeled ? . I agree on Spit XIV part though.
Yes, Hristo, the TA-152 won quite a few votes, but not as many as the Spit XIV did.
From what I came up with on the count, the Spit finished second in the voting only to the 190D9, was ahead of the TA152, 190F8, La7, Tempest, and F4U-4, all of which we already have!   :(
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Hristo on December 29, 2001, 08:32:00 AM
I agree. Spit XIV should have been here a long ago. Much sooner than some planes already introduced.

Same goes for Ki-84.

I hope this will be solved in the next release. Can't wait for the thrill of meeting the XIV's in a D-9  ;).
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Lephturn on December 29, 2001, 08:37:00 AM
Must have a perk jug.  Need a perk plane that's worth spending my points on.

As it would be a variant with likely the least work for HTC required, the M would likely be the best choice from that perspective.  Though I would love to see the N too.

And don't say "I'd rather have a Japanese/Russian/Italian/Whatever plane instead".  Those would not be a variant and would be a whole lot more work.  I agree we could use more of them, but if you want to argue it that way, what relatively easy variant would you rather have?  How about a variant that is a Perk?
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Karnak on December 29, 2001, 02:33:00 PM
Of the potential perk fighters yet to be introduced for the US planeset, I think that the P-47M or N would be, by far, the least contraversial.  Unlike the P-51H, F7F, F8F and P-80, these versions of the P-47 saw combat.  Many people here see combat as the arbiter in what justifies and aircraft's being a WWII aircraft. I disagree with that, but my disagreeing doesn't change anything.

Hristo,

Unfortunately I doubt you will ever get that fight in AH.

The Spit pilot will see a bunch of enemy icons, one or more of which will be labled 190, that are all trying to kill him.

You will see an enemy with a Spit14 icon and a whole lot of your countrymen trying to kill him.

That is simply the fate of perk planes in AH, and perk planes that are slower than many free aircraft have it very, very rough.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: mrsid2 on December 29, 2001, 04:33:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by -ammo-:


man the P-47 is an absolute blast to fly in AH.


I agree. And it can compete 0-15k ft in AH. LA7:s are a problem for it, but only when being attacked from disadvantage. If the jug uses a correct tactic, LA7 is killable.

What goes for other planetypes, they all are dangerous obviously. At least it's possible to outrun most of them with it. After a kill or two I usually find myself extending with 3-4 enemies blasting after me.. If one of them is an LA7 my only chance is to drag him far enough from the turnfighters to be able to fight him 1:1 when I have at least some chance of survival. As it is, I'm 8:0 against LA7 in D30 and 1:1 in D25.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Lephturn on December 31, 2001, 07:06:00 AM
I love fighting La7's.  Sure they can run, but they can't turn for beans.  As long as I have low fuel and even close to even E states, I'll take on an La7 any time with a Jug.

So long as your AUX is empty, the Jug isn't a bad stallfighter vs. an La7 even on the deck.  I find the Yak a far more dangerous opponent down on the deck, but you don't see them around very often.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: SageFIN on December 31, 2001, 08:21:00 AM
Lephturn is correct. I'd also like to point out that the P-47 handles very nice. It might not turn the fastest but you can just yank and mangle it all the way around the sky and still retain control.

[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: SageFIN ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Zigrat on January 02, 2002, 08:06:00 PM
vermillion

imo the air war was over with ve day. i would guess there were fewer than 50 a2a losses after ve day in the pacific - the japanese were just out of good pilots, and the us pilots were hitting their stride.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Widewing on January 02, 2002, 08:43:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Zigrat:
vermillion

imo the air war was over with ve day.

Huh?! Gee, better not tell the families of all those USAAF, USN and USMC aircrew who did in action during May, June, July and August of 1945. This period was the most active of the war for the USAAF in the Pacific.

Go to Carter and Mueller'sChronology of AAF in WWII (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/chron/contents.htm) and tell me if it sounds like it was over after reading about all the operations flown by the AAF during the above mentioned period.

Gripen: You can get a good idea of P-47N operations by reading through the monthly overviews of fighter operations out of Ie Shima, beginning with their combat debut in May. While the P-47N wasn't involved for very long, they were extremely active.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: K West on January 03, 2002, 07:34:00 AM
So there's a new line in the sand marking a WWII fighter as being a valide candidate for inclusion AH?

 No longer is it a matter of argument as to whether it was produced-and-deployed, versus "saw" combat, but now the ammount and quality  itself of the combat by any specific aircraft type saw is being used as the new bar?

 That's could suck real bad for people who'd always wanted AH to include 1939/1940 Polish, Czech, Dutch and French planes. After all the pre-Battle of Britain air war was over in a flash and that breif airwar period never saw astronimical kill counts that were seen over the Ruhr and Der Fatherland in 1944-45. Hell we'd never see an AR-80 either with the new requirements some would have HTC use.

  Westy

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: O'Westy ]
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vermillion on January 05, 2002, 08:18:00 PM
Thats EXACTLY my point Widewing !

My grandfather lost half his stomach in the phillipines, liberating Bataan, but that didn't really count because the war was mostly over, did it?
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Dawvgrid on January 07, 2002, 07:49:00 AM
If you implement the p47 m&n,,,,,,then dont
forget the DO 335 pheil.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: K West on January 07, 2002, 07:51:00 AM
"then dont forget the DO 335 pheil."

It was in production so absolutley!

  Westy
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: eddiek on January 07, 2002, 08:54:00 AM
Aww, not that junk again........

P47M/N saw action, we already went thru this over a year ago.    :(

P47M production close enough to Ta152 production to justify it's introduction.
Not Do335........in production shouldn't be considered unless you gonna open the game up for ALL planes that were in production.  That means F8F, F7F, P51H, P80.......personally, as much as I would like to see them, IMO they have no place in AH.  
P47N saw lots of use in the Pacific.  I would prefer the P47M, but whatever Pyro decides to go with will be fine with me.
But leave the fantasy planes out, please.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Vector on January 07, 2002, 12:18:00 PM
S!
P-47M's range is somewhat pathetic which would make N more suitable to MA. Just think about this; you start your P-47M and after crossing the end of the runway, 50% of your fuel is gone!  :D
P-47N needs just a little additional art work; stretch D-25's wings little and multiply power by x.x,no? (Ups, did I really say D-25?), perk it.
And pleeeeaaaasee add paddle blade prop to D-11 (heck, I'd pay few perkies for it)!
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Red Tail 444 on January 09, 2002, 03:24:00 PM
August 2000 there was a Jug convention in MN, and the guys there talked about the incredible damage they took in them. One guy wrote that he was under ground fire, and upon landing he noticed a 37MM shell had gone straight through the engine, and the engine never uttered a word. I wish I kept the article, I know I have it around the house somewhere.

There go my last two cents...
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: eddiek on January 09, 2002, 03:35:00 PM
Actually, the N model would take more work than that vector.
The wings would have to stretched I think 18 inches per side and squared off.
Honestly tho, who needs the range anyway, at least in the MA?  
The P47M, at least to me, would be the ultimate Jug to take into a furball.  
From what I can tell, the only things Pyro and company would need to change would be cosmetic, different markings on the D-30 (??), take a little weight off, and add the power from the higher output engine in the M models.
Untouchable?  No!  Fun?  Heck yes!    :D
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: Sancho on January 09, 2002, 04:23:00 PM
P-47M was fast and climbed very well.  As such it would be a good E fighter at mid to high altitudes.  On the deck, other planes would still be faster--pony, temp, la7, etc.

Now the N rolled faster than any other jug and turned better too.  It has speed rivaling the M... only 10 mph slower.  It's climb wasn't as good as the M, but it was a little better than the D.  Numbers are quoted above in this thread.

All in all, the N would be a better all around plane for the main arena, able to run when needed and turnfight better than even the dreaded "spit-bolt" D-11.  :)  I'd rather fly an N, despite the M being the 56th FG's ultimate ride.
Title: P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!
Post by: laz on January 10, 2002, 06:23:00 PM
ATTENTION: I AM PORKING THIS POST.

Screw jugs, you have 3 of them already.  I want a green/black p38 with yellow trim =).  All a new p47 would get is shot down, becasue all p47's suck badly=) porking is complete =)

=Twin Engined Devils=