Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FiLtH on December 02, 2009, 10:00:01 PM
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We lost 2 escorts (only 2 we had) on a bomb run tonight. Atleast 1 17 as well. Question...will the ack hurt friendly interceptors the same as our escort over the city? If not no escort will want to fly over and the interceptors will have a free meal. Just a thought...or tone down the ack a bit.
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Bring more friends.
The idea was to promote more fights not make porking more centralized.
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Squad night will be a lot more interesting. :cool:
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You can be killed by your own flak....
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Look, IRL, you didn't run into flak AND interceptors at the same time for the very good reason that the flak would have proven just as deadly to the intercepting fighters.
Flak in this game has ruined any attempt to have dogfights within miles of CVs. Lets not let the same thing happen around cities, which could otherwise become centers for historically accurate escorted high-altitude raids and interceptions.
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We lost 2 escorts (only 2 we had) on a bomb run tonight. Atleast 1 17 as well. Question...will the ack hurt friendly interceptors the same as our escort over the city? If not no escort will want to fly over and the interceptors will have a free meal. Just a thought...or tone down the ack a bit.
Fighters got killed, buffs got through? Typical ^#%#^%@$# you run into with the flak, as-is.
Okay, here is one potential idea for an admittedly imperfect fix: Adjust the city flak to target only the heavies.
(You can do this with the cities as opposed to the CVs. CVs can easily be dropped by a jabo. Whereas a guy in a jabo is a drop in the bucket targeting the cities vs. the same guy bringing some buffs, so people will still want to bring the heavies over cities, even with the flak.)
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The AAA will take out fighters way before it damages bombers. We found that out during testing for Der Grosse Schlagg back in 2007. A B-17 trio was able to orbit 45 mins in puffy ack and take 3 pings for no damage, while P-51s that flew into it always got damaged or shot down within seconds of entering the AAA zone. We tried it at all settings as well, not just MA standard. The bombers just seem to not be as vunerable.
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The AAA will take out fighters way before it damages bombers. We found that out during testing for Der Grosse Schlagg back in 2007. A B-17 trio was able to orbit 45 mins in puffy ack and take 3 pings for no damage, while P-51s that flew into it always got damaged or shot down within seconds of entering the AAA zone. We tried it at all settings as well, not just MA standard. The bombers just seem to not be as vunerable.
Thanks for the input. It is a real problem.
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I too dont understand the flak's lethality against fighters..
I was flying in a TA152 at 12K looking for a CV, I saw it and started heading towards it, it wasnt firing yet, Then as I got closer WHAM.. first shot.. pilot wound.. I started a hard bank left to try and rtb.. WHAM tower..
a guy half a sector behind me in 26s flew over straight and level, bombed the CV and landed all bombers undamaged. :cry
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Flak's been bass-ackwards for a long time.
262s manuvering, changing altitude, from 25k while doing 500+mph get pinged repeatedly, but slow, lumbing, level, NONMANUVERING bombers make many passes with no damage.
Folks been decrying the state of puffy AAA for a while.
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Look, IRL, you didn't run into flak AND interceptors at the same time for the very good reason that the flak would have proven just as deadly to the intercepting fighters.
Flak in this game has ruined any attempt to have dogfights within miles of CVs. Lets not let the same thing happen around cities, which could otherwise become centers for historically accurate escorted high-altitude raids and interceptions.
Historically accurate? LOL Generally both sides fighters got out of the way at the targets because of the flak. The bombers had to go through it, the fighters didn't.
That this is happening over a city in AH would seem to me more historically accurate. Fighters were there to do the job before the bombers got to the target and to nail the remnants on the way home.
Feel free to argue to have the flak toned down, but leave the history out of it :)
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Guppy....they are gonna need a little R and R after that smack down.
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Squad night will be a lot more interesting. :cool:
I can't wait! :x
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This design will make people fly higher. Which means a lot of time climbing not fighting.
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This design will make people fly higher. Which means a lot of time climbing not fighting.
I noticed that tonight actually. Today was my first day back to AH after a forced (computer self destructed) absence. It certainly seemed to me that the basic fight altitude was higher then I remembered... There were definitely more bombers in the air then normal, but I'm sure that is attributable to the new version... We'll see if that persists for very long...
But what do I know...
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This design will make people fly higher. Which means a lot of time climbing not fighting.
You can still have your furball without having to kill the fun flying bombers.
I have been attacking the bombers early and then letting them fly through the ack at the strats. Escorts? Havent seen any yet but I have been hoping. Great fun so far and much more 'pure' as far as I can see it. :aok
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This design will make people fly higher. Which means a lot of time climbing not fighting.
I have spend more time fighting at 25-35k than at least in a whole year of Aces High. And having a mission meant that both me as well as enemy escorts weren't willing to simply dive to the deck when it's getting tough.
And yes, more climbing time. I'm totally wrecking my K/Time, it's now as low as in my first 2weeks 4 years ago :lol
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Although I have trouble flying an online game and being killed by AI, if its gotta be there so be it. I just want the flak to be dangerous to everyone. Like Guppy said, generally both sides stayed out of the ack. Thats what Id like to see...not our side scared to go in it, while they bath in it with impunity.
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The science in it is this...... fighters are smaller are far more fragile. Not that I agree with the way the ack works but a much smaller power % of damage from ack is needed to destroy a fighter then a bomber. Not only that but the dispersion pattern of fire wouldn't need to be as concentrated.
Fighters got killed, buffs got through? Typical ^#%#^%@$# you run into with the flak, as-is.
Is this possible?
Okay, here is one potential idea for an admittedly imperfect fix: Adjust the city flak to target only the heavies.
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Flak in this game has ruined any attempt to have dogfights within miles of CVs. Lets not let the same thing happen around cities, which could otherwise become centers for historically accurate escorted high-altitude raids and interceptions.
QFT :aok
I'm quite disappointed that the puffy ack modelling hasnt been looked at for this update, theres plenty of issues with it which I wont bother repeating - we all know its not right.
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Look, IRL, you didn't run into flak AND interceptors at the same time for the very good reason that the flak would have proven just as deadly to the intercepting fighters.
Catch them before you reach effective range of ack :aok
Flak in this game has ruined any attempt to have dogfights within miles of CVs. Lets not let the same thing happen around cities, which could otherwise become centers for historically accurate escorted high-altitude raids and interceptions.
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Geeking the edge of a CV or base is N O T dogfighting!!
It seems to me "even though I don't play anymore" the idea for the update was to make the strats more valuable to both sides, hence requiring more DEDICATION to have success at either attacking them and or defending them! Sounds to me as a good change.
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It is ideal to catch the bombers in transit to the strat not over it, however if you are hammering bombers above a strat you should be damageable also. Seems realistic to me... :aok
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We lost 2 escorts (only 2 we had) on a bomb run tonight. Atleast 1 17 as well. Question...will the ack hurt friendly interceptors the same as our escort over the city? If not no escort will want to fly over and the interceptors will have a free meal. Just a thought...or tone down the ack a bit.
I ve been killed by my own ack over a cv chasing bad guys before so my guess is yes
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As far as I understand it, puffy-ack was dialed-up to help defend CV’s from bombers ruining good fights. It was a noble intention by HTC but it has had the exact opposite effect in my opinion. The bombers are not very affected by the auto-ack and the fighters stay away from the CV’s. When a CV is sunk the standard answer is “up and defend it”. I seem to recall Hitech himself saying that recently. Ok, we will up and defend it or shut up when they get sunk(okay, there will still be whines, but that is always going to be the case no matter what you do HTC). Same goes for the reduction in strats. If there is a shortage of ammo, fuel, etc it is because we didn’t do our job to defend it. That is what you want us to do right? Defend. Okay, then why program puffy ack into the game to do our job for us? I respectfully submit, why not take the puffy ack out of the game altogether?
It seems to me that same ack code is now going to frustrate good fights that could happen over this new strat area. If the base-takers hate the ack, the bomber drivers hate the ack, the furballers hate the ack, why keep it? It just pisses people off and adds a frustration to potentially good fights. Take it out and raise the subscription price to $20 a month b/c it will make the game 33% better than the current $15 game. :D
I hate griping about this right when this new, very cool strat feature has been added to the game but I see the puffy ack reducing the FUN that it could bring to the game. Remove the fly from the ointment.
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I like to see the puffy ack..its cool. But I dont want it one sided. As long as it kills everybody in it im fine with it.
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I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned that AAA is just as lethal to friendlies as enemies, it's just that friendlies tend to shy away from it...historically accurate. I was involved in the bomber run FiLtH is describing, and I remember bringing up on VOX how most of my fighter perks have been lost to flying F4U-4's in friendly puffy ack and getting killed by it, to which we all laughed and claimed how sucky it was.
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I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned that AAA is just as lethal to friendlies as enemies, it's just that friendlies tend to shy away from it...historically accurate. I was involved in the bomber run FiLtH is describing, and I remember bringing up on VOX how most of my fighter perks have been lost to flying F4U-4's in friendly puffy ack and getting killed by it, to which we all laughed and claimed how sucky it was.
A number of people have mentioned that you can get killed by your own ack in this thread.
There is nothing historically accurate about auto-ack gunners locking-on to a plane, said plane leaves ack range or goes under 3K, comes back into range and the ack is on him like a duck on a junebug. Don’t even try the history route. Mmmmkay?
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dub.
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None that I read. Suppose I missed the multitudes of hoards that exclaimed it out.
Chill, muppetman.
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None that I read. Suppose I missed the multitudes of hoards that exclaimed it out.
Chill, muppetman.
You can be killed by your own flak....
I ve been killed by my own ack over a cv chasing bad guys before so my guess is yes
:noid
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Well, there ya go. I ignore Strip and I missed ded.
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my 2 eurocents:
Yes, you can be hit and killed by friendly puffy ack. Happened to most of us.
But it's still not as dangerous to you as to the enemy, because the ack doesn't aim at you. Currently, being hit by friendly ack is still a kind of freak accident.
Until now I was fine with that. But what I do now see it indeed as a problem: When we are fighting 30+k over the new strat targets (thats 2-3x higher than most top level action over CVs), the ack as still an uncanny ability to identify targets at that extreme ranges. One sortie I was trying to drag away the enemy escorts from their bombers. When entering the ack zone; I suddenly saw puffs all around them, while myself being totally safe from it because I was 1.5k in front of them.
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The problem I see is that the solution is worse. The city uses the same code as the guns of every type at any other field, with the puffy having a hard deck. So, without another gunnery system, puffy ack would have to shoot at everyone everywhere. O lawdy.
With instating a new gunnery system just for the cities, the result would be a cloud of AAA over the entire area...great for history, bad for playability and framerate.
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my 2 eurocents:
Yes, you can be hit and killed by friendly puffy ack. Happened to most of us.
But it's still not as dangerous to you as to the enemy, because the ack doesn't aim at you. Currently, being hit by friendly ack is still a kind of freak accident.
Until now I was fine with that. But what I do now see it indeed as a problem: When we are fighting 30+k over the new strat targets (thats 2-3x higher than most top level action over CVs), the ack as still an uncanny ability to identify targets at that extreme ranges. One sortie I was trying to drag away the enemy escorts from their bombers. When entering the ack zone; I suddenly saw puffs all around them, while myself being totally safe from it because I was 1.5k in front of them.
I thought it fires randomly in a box around the bad guy. If you are in the box, you have the same probability to get hit as he does.
The probability increases to 100% if you are in a 262 :lol
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I thought it fires randomly in a box around the bad guy. If you are in the box, you have the same probability to get hit as he does.
That's correct. His point being that you can just leave that box and the gunners never make mistakes, as a real ack box wouldn't be able to tell friend from foe at high altitude.
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OOZ, the solution is to take it out all together. Stop thinking and just listen to me. :D
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The way flak is modeled it will never truly act like the real thing......
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Gup, is almost exactly what I *just said*. Enemy as well as friendly fighters had to amscray from the flak. But, *in the game* even though you can occasionally be killed if you are on an enemy a/c when a flak burst goes off near it, it is a rare thing. Effectively you can attack enemy fighter over your own puffy while they have to dodge you AND puffy with little risk. We're not going to turn off the puffy completely over cities I don't think, so just having it target the buffs (which after all, are the primary targets) is the best of imperfect compromises I think.
Historically accurate? LOL Generally both sides fighters got out of the way at the targets because of the flak. The bombers had to go through it, the fighters didn't.
That this is happening over a city in AH would seem to me more historically accurate. Fighters were there to do the job before the bombers got to the target and to nail the remnants on the way home.
Feel free to argue to have the flak toned down, but leave the history out of it :)
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Stop thinking and just listen to me. :D
Not worth it. :noid
Personally, I don't want to see it go away.
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Squad night will be a lot more interesting. :cool:
Thndr, your night is Saturday right?
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"Historically accurate? LOL Generally both sides fighters got out of the way at the targets because of the flak. The bombers had to go through it, the fighters didn't.
That this is happening over a city in AH would seem to me more historically accurate. Fighters were there to do the job before the bombers got to the target and to nail the remnants on the way home."
Spot-on. If you're a fighter defending a strat target against enemy bombers and you follow them into the flak barrage and go BOOOOM, tough. That nicely-timed attack-the-bomber-just-as-he's-about-to-drop tactic may cost you dear now. Attack bombers on the way in to the IP or after they clear the target area.
:cool:
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I cant remember the last time friendly puffy hurt me. Tonight I think Ill spend time defending the city and see if it does.
Again I love to SEE the ack, I just want to see it so any plane that enters the flak belt when enemies are present be at the same risk. Have the defending fighters attack before the flak area, then break off, and the ack starts firing. Thats how I always thought it happened in ww2.
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I cant remember the last time friendly puffy hurt me. Tonight I think Ill spend time defending the city and see if it does.
Again I love to SEE the ack, I just want to see it so any plane that enters the flak belt when enemies are present be at the same risk. Have the defending fighters attack before the flak area, then break off, and the ack starts firing. Thats how I always thought it happened in ww2.
Be man!!! Do it in a 262 :)
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I respectfully submit, why not take the puffy ack out of the game altogether?
I agree.. make the guns mannable, if they must exist at all..
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Ahem...
How many times must the point be made that puffy ack is NOT very deadly to fighters from the same country? Or to enemy buffs for that matter.
"Historically accurate? LOL Generally both sides fighters got out of the way at the targets because of the flak. The bombers had to go through it, the fighters didn't.
That this is happening over a city in AH would seem to me more historically accurate. Fighters were there to do the job before the bombers got to the target and to nail the remnants on the way home."
Spot-on. If you're a fighter defending a strat target against enemy bombers and you follow them into the flak barrage and go BOOOOM, tough. That nicely-timed attack-the-bomber-just-as-he's-about-to-drop tactic may cost you dear now. Attack bombers on the way in to the IP or after they clear the target area.
:cool:
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Ahem...
How many times must the point be made that puffy ack is NOT very deadly to fighters from the same country? Or to enemy buffs for that matter.
Until you figure out that it is randomly hitting in a box around the bad guy and if you are in the box, the probability of getting hit is the same for the good guy as it is for the bad guy? If anything, the guy trailing (good guy) has a better chance of getting hit if the window is adjusted for speed
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Until you figure out that it is randomly hitting in a box around the bad guy and if you are in the box, the probability of getting hit is the same for the good guy as it is for the bad guy? If anything, the guy trailing (good guy) has a better chance of getting hit if the window is adjusted for speed
I know how it works Ded. If you are trailing the fighter being targeted, yes you *might* get poofed. I don't see it very often. Otherwise your chances are darn near Zero.
In reality, the stuff wasn't even aimed at individual airplanes, but sent up in broad sheets at what they reckoned was. ALOT more indiscriminate than what we got.
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Today I saw some rooks heading to bish city. I told them I would go bish to test something and i wouldnt shoot them. I met them in a 109k over the city. After a few minutes of bish attacking them I was left alone with a lanc in his ack. Flew right with him with it banging off for close to 5 mins. Not 1 ping on me. Looked like he was doing ok too. Wonder if they adjusted something.