Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Jekyll on March 23, 2001, 04:53:00 PM
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Couldn't resist this quote from Saburo Sakai in "Samurai"
"Unfortunately, the Shiden's flight characteristics were treacherous and demanded an experienced pilot. Too many men with little time behind the controls of fighter planes never lived to fly the Shiden into combat. Their familiarization flights killed them".
"Treacherous" ??
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Quiet!! You must be stoned!!!! Then followed by thousands of BS excuses on how AH pilots are much better than their RL counterparts, and how we do this and that- in the end just exuses. I love Sakai's book and meant to bring this up before but you beat me to it. Clearly right from one of the best combat pilots of all time, and also a wartime test pilot, saying the Niki was HARD to fly and had TREACHEROUS flying qualites. We may all certainly disagree on wheater Niki is UFO in AH, but can anyone honestly say that Niki has any behavior that even comes close to killing its pilots in large numbers or even approaches the word treacherous? Hard stall? NO Sudden Stall? NO Any Stall at all? NO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Viscious Spins? NO Huge Torque? NO
Whats up with our Niki FM? Cmon u cheereaders lets see ur usual BS dance! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Did he fly an N1K1 or N1K2?
Would the mid wing of the N1K1 cause the departure performance to be different when compared with the low wing of the N1K2?
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Good question Karnak. I don't have any definitive answer as to whether it was the N1K1 or N1K2 Sakai refers to BUT ....
He DOES mention that the aircraft's 'baptism of fire' too place on March 19, 1945 over the Kure Naval Base. He also mentions first test-flying a Shiden in September 1944.
Now production N1K1's began appearing in the Pacific theatre in early 1944, and were certainly well engaged in operations in the Phillipines in October 1944. Seems strange for Sakai to be 'test-flying' an aircraft which was already in operational use.
However, the N1K2 had its first deliveries in July 1944, so test flying the aircraft in September of that year seems a reasonable proposition. Sakai also mentions that the 'Shiden' he refers to was used for home island defence in Japan, which further tends to support the proposition that he is really referring to the N1K2.
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Lots of other planes in AH are missing many of the "treacherous" flight characteristics that they had in real life too y'know... eg: where's the La-5/7 "killer bounce" on landing?
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well the 109 has that nasty narrow undercarraige and the horrendous roll rate at speed,the 190's ALL have an engine that cant take a hit which is BS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and the p51 has that vulnerable underbelly...oh no sorry the p51 DOESNT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
grunhertz keep going m8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hazed
3./JG2 (http://members.home.net/winyah999/3jg2.htm)
[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 03-23-2001).]
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f6f5 behaves the way I think the n1k2 should.
their stall/spin characteristics should be swapped.
f6f5 in AH is SEVERELY treacherous. the real one was not.
n1k2 in AH is a teddy bear, it should be a squeak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
ask me about the p38 if you want an earful about "how it should be" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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hehehe citabria... now if i only remembered how much money did i bet on you being back in 2 months.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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38 still needs its stalls and flaps fixed. But its a killer.
Now PORK that damn n1k, im fed up with it pulling bi-plane manouvers at f-16 speeds.
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Ah the old times, when we talked about UFO Nikis and dweeb cannon-ships. I miss them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Such a light plane with such a big engine should produce wicked torque.
Wouldn't this be even worse when the N1K does it famous "hang by the prop and spraying" stuff, seeing how there's no real wind over the wings helping with keeping it flying straight?
Add this and the N1K's will begin dying horribly, being unable to go HO on a rope a dope (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
As it is now it's quite dangerous to rope a dope a N1K - it keeps its nose pointing at you forever, then gets around and into a dive very quickly and under full control.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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If I remember correctly the first test flight of the N1K2-J took place on the 31st of December. It had better landing gear than the N1K1-J (though still a bit weak) and both aircraft shared the same wonderfully robust and reliable engine.
Take that idiot [Minoru] Genda. He could barely fly, but he jumped up and down about the Shiden-kai ["George"], so everybody else pretended to like it, too. That plane was a piece of crap, put together by a third-rate firm [Kawanishi].
-Saburo Sakai commenting on the Shindin-kai
If the N1K2-J did indeed make its maiden flight just slightly before 1945, maybe it should be perked and supplemented with a non-perk N1K1-J. A heavier aircraft (by 500lb), and generally less maneuverable with more violent departure characteristics.
I agree that the niki also need to be a little bit more of a "bucking bronco."
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Whats up with our Niki FM? Cmon u cheereaders lets see ur usual BS dance! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Heh, BS dance eh? I was thinking the same thing about you and other NikiWhiners™ like you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Is there a problem with the current Niki FM? I don't know, and from what I've seen posted, neither does anyone else. The only productive thing I've seen posted about the Niki good or bad is by Jigster about it's use of automatic combat flaps and the lack of them on AH's model.
Here are facts about the Niki as presented in 3 books that I've got with information on 'em. I don't claim that any of it is reliable, and I don't claim the Niki in AH conforms to these number or not. Nor do I care...if it's broken, HTC will fix it. There's a claim from Grunny that Pyro said there was some sort of problem with climb rates, but I don't remember seeing a link to that post...please correct me with a link if I'm wrong.
Here's the data, for what it's worth (I know it's not as clear cut and decisive as one WWII pilot's opinion of the aircraft, but I suppose it will have to do since that's what those crazy bastards at HTC tend to rely on):
DIMENSIONS
Book One¹: Length-30ft 7-29/32in (9.345m); Winspan-39ft 4-7/16in (12m); Height-12ft 11-29/32in (3.96m); Wing Area-252.951sq ft (23.5sq m)
Book Two²: Length-30ft 8-1/4in (9.35m); Wingspan-39ft 3-1/4in (11.97m); Height-13ft (3.96m)
Book Three³: Length-30ft 8in (9.33m); Wingspan-39ft 4.5in (12.00m); Height-13ft 0in (3.96m)
WEIGHTS
Book One: Empty-5,858lb (2,657kg); Loaded 8,818lb (4000kg); Maximum 10,714lb (4,860kg); Wing Loading 34.9lb/sq ft (170.2kg/sq m); Power Loading 4.4lb/hp (2kg/hp)
Book Two: Empty-6,299lb (2,657kg); Max Loaded-10,714lb (4,860kg)
Book Three: Empty-5,858lb (2,657kg); Max T/O-10,714lb (4,860kg)
PERFORMANCE
Book One: Max Speed-369mph @ 18,375ft (321kt @ 5,600m); Cruising Speed-230mph @ 9,845ft (200kt @ 3,000m); Climb To-19,685ft (6,000kt)-in-7min 22sec; Service Ceiling-35,300ft (10,760m); Range normal-1,066 st miles (926naut miles) max-1,488 st miles (1,293naut miles)
Book Two: Max Speed-369mph (594km/h); Initial Climb-3,300ft/min (1,000m/min); Range-1,069mi (1,720km)
Book Three: Max Speed-369mph (594kmh); Range-1,488mi (2,395km) w/external tanks
ENGINE
One Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 18-cylinder Air-cooled radial [driving a 4-blade metal propeller¹]
Book One: hp @T/O-1,990 @5,740ft(1,750m)-1,825 @20,015ft(6,100m)-1,625
Book Two: 1,990hp
Book Three: 1,990hp (1,484kW)
ARMAMENTS
Book One: Four wing-mounted 20mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon; Two 250kg (551lb) bombs
Book Two: Four 20mm in pairs inside wing; Two 250kg (551lb) bombs underwing or six rockets under fuselage (book one specifies that the (6)rockets were only available in an "experimental installation on some N1K1-J" with one 250kg bomb)
Book Three: Four 20mm cannon in wings; Four 250kg (551lb) bombs
Book One Random Facts
-First Flight on December 31, 1943, handed over to the navy in April 1944
-Total Produced by all factories, about 415 not including 8 prototypes (one factory's numbers include N1K2-K production with N1K2-J)(book also states that only a limited number of N1K2-Ks were made, which were modified N1K2-J with a second seat added)
Book Two Random Facts
-First flight on April 3, 1944. (presumably first flight by the Navy)
-...encountered on all fronts from May 1944.
-Kawanishi delivered 406 N1K2-J
Book Three Random Facts
-First flight on December 31, 1943.
-"Deliveries of aircraft to the frontline commenced in July 1944"
-"...428 had been built by VJ-Day"
A couple of common themes...
-The N1K2 was an outstanding fighter that could hold it's own with the best Allied Fighter aircraft.
-It's engine was unreliable.
Well, there's my whining cheerleading BS. Now please continue your intellectual discussion of the UFo...err, I mean N1K2-J.
SOB
¹ From the book "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Renè J Francillon (ISBN#0-87021-313-X)
² From the book "Fighting Aircraft of World War II" by Bill Gunston (ISBN#1-84065-092-3)
³ From the book "Jane's Pocket Guide, Fighters of World War II" by Tony Holmes (ISBN#0-00-472206-X)
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 03-25-2001).]
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1. Sakai was a Zeke pilot. N1K is a higher wingloaded aircraft. They Navy pilots said the same kind of things about the Zeke when they had to transition from their previous, even more lightly wingloaded aircraft (A5M)
2. Consider the average level of IJNAAF pilot training when the N1K was introduced. It was pretty low due to almost complete attrition of pre-war pilots by that point.
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Originally posted by Major Tom:
Take that idiot [Minoru] Genda. He could barely fly, but he jumped up and down about the Shiden-kai ["George"], so everybody else pretended to like it, too. That plane was a piece of crap, put together by a third-rate firm [Kawanishi].
-Saburo Sakai commenting on the Shindin-kai
Maybe Sakai was talking here about very poor build quality leading to the a/c hardly ever working properly; rather than it's flight characteristics as such. Treacherous perhaps, but it should be a dangerous opponent when it works.
Yet OTOH I certainly wouldn't complain if the N1k became harder to fly. Alternatively, having the game simulate random failures on the a/c at regular intervals would reduce it's popularity a fair bit I think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Vladd
[This message has been edited by Vladd (edited 03-25-2001).]
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Niki is highly loaded Funked????? Cmon funked if its so highly loaded vs the Zero how come I can outturn bout 3/4 zeros ive fought in MA and TA?
SOB, which one of those books said Niki can pull reverses with almost no E-loss, zoom climb to hover then get full control for level flight and more climb just by pushing over elevator, which one of those books said Niki has decided climb advantage over P51D at 28K- cause the one AH can sure do all these things? Ive done all all this in the two 2 tours when I flew niki most- I know niki if ur favorite ride for long time SOB and thats cool but something happend to NIKI FM in version 1.04 something that drove it from an almost unknown plane to being the scourge of MA almost overnight. It and mebbe chog benefited way more than any other plane from 1.04 changes. If the 1.04 changes just made all planes turn better by equal margin then all should havbe been same as before.
But something got added to nikis ability to go vertical, I still remember the first day of 1.04 when i tried to rope a niki from dive in my 109 the damn thing just kept coming up and up and up and it wouldnt stall or stop climbing. Thats the only thig i think is wierd or UFO like abot the niki it can climb like it doesnt need airspeed to pull nose up, it can loop at virtualY no speed, it hovers almost at will, even firing guns at hover doesnt stall it, it has no spin behavior whatsover, it can pull endless loops right after takeoff- REALLY IS THIS THE BEHAVIOR OF A PLANE WITH TREACHEROUS FLIGHT CHARACTERISTICS?
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Well, actually the Niki hasn't been my favorite ride since 1.05 when I discovered the fun of .50 cals in the F6F. Then I went back to the P51D and now the P51B. What I don't care for is the constant whining and squeaking without any data or facts to back up the posts.
I posted data. You think the Niki is diddlyed up and want it changed, then test it and see if it matches the data. Zig's got an Excel worksheet that you can just plug the numbers into...I don't know how the heck it works, but maybe it'll help you. Hell, if you were serious enough about it, you could probably email Pyro and get him to read this thread and give you his opinion of the numbers I posted & if they match his data (which would, I'm sure, be more reliable than mine).
Or, you can just continue to spew the same old rhetoric over and over again. That's certainly an option for you, but it's simply annoying and doesn't accomplish anything.
Why can you outturn 75% of the zekes you meet in the arenas? Because you're a good pilot & know how to run the Niki to it's extremes and the folks you meet in the Zeke either aren't or don't or both.
Other than that, I'm done arguing about it. I really don't care if a few of you don't like it, particularly if you're not willing to put the time in to add anything productive to the discussion. Jekyll, your post approached that, but one pilot's (even a great pilot's) opinion of the aircraft is just that, an opinion about an aircraft he flew how much? Flew in combat? Flew anything but prototypes?
SOB
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I can relate to what funked is saying because the Japanese thought the same thing about the Ki-44. As for wing loading, you don't need a high wing loading to go fast. Also, something else missing from AH is the nasty stall in the 190. According to my reading, there was virtually no stall warning in the 190, and I receive plenty of warning before the 190 stalls here. As for the N1K2, I often wondered if the amazing turns we see aren't a simulation of the automatic maneuvering flaps with which it was equipped. And the 109 in AH handles much too easily on the ground compared to the real 109 (Based on reading..and the fact that I have cracked up a lot more Corsairs then 109s on the ground here, when in reality, 1/3 of all 109 losses were reportedly due to ground handling accidents).
Of course, I doubt we will see completely accurate flight characteristics here, because, as HiTech has said before, how do you give the proper 'feedback' to the sim pilot for some of these effects. And, just for proof, I remember when HTC added prop strikes (Which I thought were very cool) but instead of learning to keep the planes from making prop strikes during take off and landing, many people whined about it, so it was removed. What really needs to be understood is that HTC is most likely trying to balance the planes such that they each 'shine' in a specific part of the FM (While 'respecting' their historical data) to keep one type from dominating the arena like a UFO..er N1K2 and C'Hog...did I say C'Hog? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I guess what I am really saying is lets separate AH planes from the real planes. Using real data will only get us into trouble with regard to every plane here due to playability reasons. Having said that, yes the N1K2 is a UFO! I think it uses some form of Electro Magnetic Field Device to keep it from losing E in a turn and maintaining ungodly amounts of E in a zoom climb. But that's all classified, so you didn't hear it from me.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
MAG-33 (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
'Criticism is always easier than craftmanship.'
[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 03-25-2001).]
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Originally posted by Sundog:
I think it uses some form of Electro Magnetic Field Device to keep it from losing E in a turn and maintaining ungodly amounts of E in a zoom climb. But that's all classified, so you didn't hear it from me.
Dammit Sundog, I warned you about releasing this information to the public. Sit tight and don't resist. "They" will be there to collect you shortly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Gotcha, SOB! I knew u were part of the niki conspiracy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) hehe
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I think I bumped into an ejected warp core and was caught on its explosion when it breached.
ZZZAAP!
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GRUNHERZ,
I can't answer your question about out turning Zeros when you're flying the N1K2, but for my part I love to see N1K2s when I'm flying the Zero. They ALWAYS try to turn with me and when they do that, they die. In my experience the Zero will go from having the N1K2 on its tail to being in firing position on the N1K2 in 3-4 turns.
BTW,
Funked wasn't saying that the N1K2 was a high wingload aircraft, he was saying that it was a higher wingload aircraft than the A6M2 in which Sakai did most of his flying.
Funked,
In a different thread you stated that the A7M2 Reppu was a piece of junk. Everything I have read says that the A7M1 with the Homare engine was bad, but when it was given the more powerful Mitsubishi Ha-43 it was great. Saburo Sakai said that the Reppu was fantastic. Where have you read that the A7M2 was junk?
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Grunherz flies the n1k2 with 1/4 fuel. he says it lasts forever.
perhaps fuel burn and weight is the problem with the n1k2 eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
maybe many if not all of these ufo n1k2s are also in low fuel turn better than a zero dweeb mode (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I fly the Zero with 1/4 fuel.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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I always flew with 100% fuel and will continue to do so when I have time to start playing this addictive game again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(pats self on back)
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The reason you can fly the N1K2-J for a long time on 25% fuel is that it was a very long range fighter. If I remember correctly something like 1,000-1,100 Nautical Miles.
Its just the same as you can do it in a P-51D.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Range normal-1,066 st miles (926naut miles) max-1,488 st miles (1,293naut miles)
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 03-26-2001).]
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PS You guys do know that the version of "Samurai" translated into English by Saito and embellished by Martin "The Great Exaggerator" Caidin has been thoroughly discredited by people who have read the original Japanese text?
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Wow!
I didn't know that funked. Of course I wasn't quoting it, but I read it a LONG time ago. Seriously, what would you recommend for reading on Sakai? Something in english please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .
CC, On miss understanding Funked's comment Karnak. Thanks.
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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs (http://www.devildogs.com)
MAG-33 (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/M3.html)
'Criticism is always easier than craftmanship.'
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Interesting funked.. I certainly was not aware of this. BTW do you have any references to his 'exaggerations'?
Now, does this mean that the following books are also BS?
1960 A Torch to the Enemy (the fire raid on Tokyo), Ballantine
1964 Everything But The Flak (about the B-17), Meredith Press (Popular Library pb)
1968 Flying Forts: The B-17 in World War II, Meredith
1968 Me109: Willy Messerschmitt's Peerless Fighter, Ballantine
1971 Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38, Ballantine
1956 Zero! (w M. Okumiya & J. Horikoshi), E. P. Dutton & Co.
1957 The Zero Fighter (w M. Okumiya & J. Horikoshi), E. P. Dutton & Co
1958 Thunderbolt!, by Robert S. Johnson (w Martin Caidin), the Fabulous U.S. 56th Fighter Group, Rinehart
1966 The Ragged, Rugged Warriors (aerial WW II in the Pacific), E. P. Dutton & Co.
Be nice to know that if anyone posts any comments or extracts from the above that we can immediately ignore any opinions contained therein (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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Jekyll I can only say what I have heard from people who have read both versions, that the English language version is not the same at all. AFAIK nobody has done another translation, and I don't read or speak Japanese (ok I know a few words, like Gojira (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) so that's all we have. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I can't speak for all of the books on your list but I have also read criticism of a few of them that indicated some exaggeration of statements made to Caidin by pilots. The only one I have read is "Thunderbolt", and there are several statements in there which will make any serious student of WWII aviation call "BS". I have the distinct impression that Caidin was more interested in selling books than in writing history.
I don't have the time or resources to write a great expose on Martin Caidin but I thought everyone should consider that some of the words attributed to Sakai are not his.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-27-2001).]