Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: pritchy on December 04, 2009, 10:42:07 AM
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Can someone summarise the difference between the different 109 models really briefly?
I am dedicating this tour to flying german machinery and besides the K4 I haven't got a clue as to why I would choose a G2 over a G6 for example.
One line each please.
Key features, key characteristics and what role each model is suited to.
Soda's evaluation page looks a little out of date and I could do with seeing a summary (in laymans terms) on one page.
Appreciate the help.
:salute
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109E4 - Early War 109. Can be considered the most maneuverable in terms of turn rate since it is the lightest of the 109 series we have. Roll rate is poor, guns are poor, view from the cockpit is impressive. Climb rate is what you would expect from any 109, good. As with all 109s the E4 suffers from stiff controls at high speeds and dives so keep her in the middle of the pact and you shouldn't have too much problems. Also she is the lowest so you'll be ran down by pretty much the entire plane set but what you can't outrun you can out turn and out maneuver for a gun shot.
Will add the other's in a bit. Kinda tired on my end of the field.
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If you want dogfight 109: take 109f; faster/better climb dogfiter 109g2; medicore dogfigtrer and b&z 109g6; better than 109g6 for both role take 109g14; 109k4 for close shooting and superior speed/climb.
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German dudes in leather fly E4s.
Real manly men fly F4s.
No one flies G2s.
Kermit flies G6s.
People who can't shoot the tater fly G14s.
Dweebs fly K4s.
So, which one are you pritchy?
:D
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(E4)-------F4-------G2/G6-------G14--------K4
<TnB.......................... .......................BnZ>
The 109s models in AH show the same kind if gradual evolution as the various spit models: Each step up on the ladder they sacrifice some flat turning ability for additional power (translating into more speed and higher climbrate).
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5307/clipboard01rv.jpg)
The 109E is a difficult beast to fly and very different from it's later brothers. Poor guns, little ammo, not aprticular well climbing and most important: A horrible rate of roll.
The F-4 is a true furballer, that will surprise many a lazy Spit 16 pilot in a flat turning contest.
The G-6 is basically a heavier G-2 with bigger firepower. The G-2 turns & climbs slightly better and is faster, the G-6 has 13mm MG's instead of the 7.92 ones.
The G14 is perhaps the most "flexible" of all 109's with it many armament options (20 or 30mm hubcannon, gondolas, bomb).
You take the K-4 if speed is absolutely crucial, it's actually fastest prop plane between ~8k up to ~24k where the 47M takes over.
From G-2 on, the main strength of all 109's is the vertical fight - even the "older" ones can outclimb most opposing fighters in late war MA.
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I am dedicating this tour to flying german machinery and besides the K4 I haven't got a clue as to why I would choose a G2 over a G6 for example.
The G-2 is a little bit faster, but has weaker firepower. So you'd choose it if you value the extra speed, but it's not worth much, because you'll still get run down by the XVI. For that reason I prefer the G-6 and find it a very capable aircraft.
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E4 - for BoB and early war.
F4 - best turner, to surprise them Spits.
G2 - great climb, better than G6 in everything else but machine guns and rear view, carry gondolas only when friendlies around.
G6 - when you need the challenge, don't take gondolas or DT with it.
G14 - option to take 30mm, best buff hunter with gondolas.
K4 - it has speed, 30mm only and no gondolas. U better be a good shot.
My no1 choice is G14 with gondolas. 30mm to hunt buffs, 20mm when no buffs expected.
No2 choice is G2 for Finnish historical reasons and because it just rocks :rock
G6 and G14 have poorer front view view because of ammo case bumps on the hood.
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Thanks everybody!
:aok
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Good StuFF !
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(E4)-------F4-------G2/G6-------G14--------K4
<TnB.......................... .......................BnZ>
The 109s models in AH show the same kind if gradual evolution as the various spit models: Each step up on the ladder they sacrifice some flat turning ability for additional power (translating into more speed and higher climbrate).
That I can remember. Thanks Lusche.
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I would suggest that the G14 is actually the better plane. The K4 is a monster of a plane but the pilot is putting all is faith in the engine and the gun. The engine to keep him out of trouble and the gun for one shot kills. Now if a great pilot gets in either plane its going to be a slaughter.
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in the later spec 109s, engine torque is your friend and will also be the death of you
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You got that right jdbecks and Chalenge . For the last few week's the K4 is all I have been flying and I have found myself putting my faith in the engine and gun's a little to much just to turn around and miss a shot and get myself killed ,lol.
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The 109E is a difficult beast to fly and very different from it's later brothers. Poor guns, little ammo, not aprticular well climbing and most important: A horrible rate of roll.
The F-4 is a true furballer, that will surprise many a lazy Spit 16 pilot in a flat turning contest.
The G-6 is basically a heavier G-2 with bigger firepower. The G-2 turns & climbs slightly better and is faster, the G-6 has 13mm MG's instead of the 7.92 ones.
The G14 is perhaps the most "flexible" of all 109's with it many armament options (20 or 30mm hubcannon, gondolas, bomb).
You take the K-4 if speed is absolutely crucial, it's actually fastest prop plane between ~8k up to ~24k where the 47M takes over.
From G-2 on, the main strength of all 109's is the vertical fight - even the "older" ones can outclimb most opposing fighters in late war MA.
I agree with all of this.
- oldman
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know your enemy and all that jazz. good work pritchy....
K4 is pure easymode win (Spit 14)
G14 great buff killer with gondies (See we need a comparable spit here 4x 20mm Spit? :t )
F4 Hans joachim skin for me, can furball with the best of them, turn noob spit drivers all day long. (Spit 5)
G2 this can be very interesting in the right hands has good all round qualities. (Spit 9)
G6 little extra punch with the 13mm's slightly slower than G2 (Spit 8 )
E4 lot of fun to dogfight with (Spit 1)
I've finally cracked the 30mm tater aiming but i'll share those details with you in private ;)
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Just remember, real men fly F's when there's work to be done and then E's for play.
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I am often puzzled by those who think the K4 is an "easy-mode" plane. There aren't many, granted, but they seem fairly vocal.
How many times have you seen new players ask the arena something to the effect of "What is a good starter plane?"
In all my time here, I've never seen any 109 recommended on Channel 200; let alone the K4. In fact, for an even mediocre player, I'd contend that the plane is more a danger to the driver than anyone else.
The plane is one big "if."
"If" you can hit with it, the 30mm will kill most aircraft in one shot.
"If" you can force a fight to the vertical, you have the advantage.
"If" you mind your speed in a dive, you wont lawn dart.
"If" you are gentle with the throttle, you wont snap spin and auger.
"If" you can learn how to manage the engine torque, it becomes an asset.
"If" you can't do any one of the above, you're not going to last very long.
It is by no means impossible to fly but I think the list of quirks present make it anything but an easy-mode plane. Should one have that opinion, I'd gather it's fair bet you're simply running into someone who has a pretty good idea of how to wrangle the best performance out of the aircraft.
If it were such an easy plane to use; the arena would be filled with K4's instead of Spitfires.
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(E4)-------F4-------G2/G6-------G14--------K4
<TnB.......................... ............................. .BnZ>
:aok
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Definitely like Sardaukar wrote! :old:
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it's so easy all you have to do is hit WEP and point your nose slightly upwards.
got you.
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I am often puzzled by those who think the K4 is an "easy-mode" plane. There aren't many, granted, but they seem fairly vocal.
How many times have you seen new players ask the arena something to the effect of "What is a good starter plane?"
In all my time here, I've never seen any 109 recommended on Channel 200; let alone the K4. In fact, for an even mediocre player, I'd contend that the plane is more a danger to the driver than anyone else.
The plane is one big "if."
"If" you can hit with it, the 30mm will kill most aircraft in one shot.
"If" you can force a fight to the vertical, you have the advantage.
"If" you mind your speed in a dive, you wont lawn dart.
"If" you are gentle with the throttle, you wont snap spin and auger.
"If" you can learn how to manage the engine torque, it becomes an asset.
"If" you can't do any one of the above, you're not going to last very long.
It is by no means impossible to fly but I think the list of quirks present make it anything but an easy-mode plane. Should one have that opinion, I'd gather it's fair bet you're simply running into someone who has a pretty good idea of how to wrangle the best performance out of the aircraft.
If it were such an easy plane to use; the arena would be filled with K4's instead of Spitfires.
They're just frustrated that someone who is capable and practiced in the K-4 can dominate with it as much as a mediocre pilot in a Spit. ;)
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http://vintagewings.ca/page?a=1261&lang=en-CAtoolbar:new_tab.html
For the real thing!!! 109E "Emil"
:joystick:
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That's really cool . Thanks for the link dcannon1 .
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I would suggest that the G14 is actually the better plane. The K4 is a monster of a plane but the pilot is putting all is faith in the engine and the gun. The engine to keep him out of trouble and the gun for one shot kills. Now if a great pilot gets in either plane its going to be a slaughter.
I know what 'the stats' say but the k4 will out turn a g14 in an equal fight every time I don't get the point of the g14 in game apart from the variety of loadout options its nearly a k4 but just isn't :(
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I know what 'the stats' say but the k4 will out turn a g14 in an equal fight every time I don't get the point of the g14 in game apart from the variety of loadout options its nearly a k4 but just isn't :(
The 109 G10 had the performance of K4 with the 20mm gondola options. No-one would fly the k4 with a difficult single 30mm tater gun.
Quite wisely HT removed that and gave good performance in the k4 and the guns with a g14. The old g10 was both combined.
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Bruv, having those gunoptions is only reason people want G10 back; but they have it, it is called G14 ;)
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Bruv, having those gunoptions is only reason people want G10 back; but they have it, it is called G14 ;)
yup was just explaining to pervert why we have the g14. and not an uber g10!
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yup was just explaining to pervert why we have the g14. and not an uber g10!
From what I understand, there never was a G-10 because the "G-10" had the same performance as the K-4. A true G-10 would have to be a bit slower than the K-4, but would be much faster than the G-14 at ~22k ft.
Although the G-10 had the option of 20mm gondolas, I can't recall seeing any photographs of that loadout. By the time the G-10 was around, you'd have had to be insane to weigh down the aircraft like that.
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Anax. It was for those who needed ("wanted) 3x20mm cannons to get kills and have some speed. Kinda spit16/14 mix :D, but you still could fly 109.
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:salute I was always insane with G10 :) ...and I still am. I carry the gondolas on G14 just about every time. :cheers:
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Wrag and blauk were in my mind when i posted last time :D
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I am often puzzled by those who think the K4 is an "easy-mode" plane. There aren't many, granted, but they seem fairly vocal.
How many times have you seen new players ask the arena something to the effect of "What is a good starter plane?"
In all my time here, I've never seen any 109 recommended on Channel 200; let alone the K4. In fact, for an even mediocre player, I'd contend that the plane is more a danger to the driver than anyone else.
The plane is one big "if."
"If" you can hit with it, the 30mm will kill most aircraft in one shot.
"If" you can force a fight to the vertical, you have the advantage.
"If" you mind your speed in a dive, you wont lawn dart.
"If" you are gentle with the throttle, you wont snap spin and auger.
"If" you can learn how to manage the engine torque, it becomes an asset.
"If" you can't do any one of the above, you're not going to last very long.
It is by no means impossible to fly but I think the list of quirks present make it anything but an easy-mode plane. Should one have that opinion, I'd gather it's fair bet you're simply running into someone who has a pretty good idea of how to wrangle the best performance out of the aircraft.
If it were such an easy plane to use; the arena would be filled with K4's instead of Spitfires.
I am finding this to be so true . IF
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Simple enough:
E4:The oldie of the bunch, very fun to fly, but poor climberate and guns.
F4: Best overall turner, guns are good, but for them to be good, you have to be a good aim.
G2: In the Gustav series, it is the best turner, and same guns as the F4
G6: One of my favorite, becasue it can always get you out of any situation. Same guns as the F4 and G2
G14: My sig says it, my absolute favorite. I fly it heavy, and it still can out manuver almost any plane. Fun for killin bombers and killin planes. Most I took home in one flight was 9, so it's not like it short on ammo, but like all of the other 109s (which I forgot to mention) just wish there was a bit more. Gondies are not out of the option with the G14 and really it should be encourage to fly with it.
K4: you don't want to hear about :)
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G6: One of my favorite, becasue it can always get you out of any situation. Same guns as the F4 and G2
Not so. The machine guns on the G6 are 12.7s, not the 7.7s on the Friedrich and G2. Makes a noticeable difference.
- oldman
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Ive been slowley flying the 109E alot more in the MA, and it is a really underestimated plane, people seem to blow all the advantage they have thinking your going to be a quick kill, shame the smallish ammo load tho..Its my fav 109 to fly
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I am often puzzled by those who think the K4 is an "easy-mode" plane.
You really have to look at the one that says such things and then realize that they are trying to convince us all how great they are because they can take a plane that requires at least medium level skill but they have so much skill that its absolutely no challenge because they are just that good. Their "EZ Mode" comment is usually followed by "I own you" or some other statement to reflect their uber god like skills.
ack-ack
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You really have to look at the one that says such things and then realize that they are trying to convince us all how great they are because they can take a plane that requires at least medium level skill but they have so much skill that its absolutely no challenge because they are just that good. Their "EZ Mode" comment is usually followed by "I own you" or some other statement to reflect their uber god like skills.
ack-ack
P38 IS an easy mode plane for example it has 2 count em 2 engines ,and is often landed missing all of its primary flight controls..... and on fire. :neener:
On another note Hitech can we have the G10 back, and a later model G6 (AS) with the Tater and the erla haube ?
:D
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On another note Hitech can we have the G10 back, and a later model G6 (AS) with the Tater and the erla haube ?
:D
Yes...I really really really really want a G10 :) not that it matters much, as we have hundreds of spits and American planes, so having another 109 wont make much difference and it would be easy to implement.
109 G10 :joystick: :airplane: :joystick: :banana: :banana:
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I know what 'the stats' say but the k4 will out turn a g14 in an equal fight every time I don't get the point of the g14 in game apart from the variety of loadout options its nearly a k4 but just isn't :(
I actually disagree with this to a certain extent.
The math is simple enough and is in the G14's favor in as far as sustained turning radius. More importantly, however, I find that the stall characteristics of the G14 are significantly more forgiving than the K4 - just as I find the G6 more forgiving than the G2. In a luftberry without vertical displacement, I'd rather be in the G14.
Where I do agree with your discounting of the stats - and its difficult because I deal with numbers for a living - is that, despite the reported, close proximity of engine performance between the 4 and the 14, there is no doubt in my mind which has the better in-game acceleration - and by a wide margin.
That's what I love about the 109 range, though. They're all the "same" plane, but each is markedly different than the others.
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I almost never fly 109s ;) but here is my take...
Its all about how you like to fly, if your a bnzr, then other planes with US 50 cals or British hispanos may be better for you, they are easier to hit targets with on deflection shots from further distances.
1) G2 best if your just getting into 109s, they climb well, they give you a basic idea of how to fight with one. They are the best 'balance' & and the torque & stall is not to hideous.
2) My fav is the G14 without gondolas and with the 30mm.
AS for the comment about e4=tnb k4=bnz I disagree. I have the best luck getting kills when I can pull a guy away from a horde and fight them in tight vert and/or rolling scissors-ish fight. Its about vertical reversals & getting the snapshot with the tater.
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I almost never fly 109s ;) but here is my take...
Its all about how you like to fly, if your a bnzr, then other planes with US 50 cals or British hispanos may be better for you, they are easier to hit targets with on deflection shots from further distances.
The 190 is the best BnZ plane IMHO, It takes a long time to master the plane and it takes alot of self discipline not to turn to much and use of the vertical is a must, the other problem to over come is the poor ballistics.
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I almost never fly 109s ;) but here is my take...
Its all about how you like to fly, if your a bnzr, then other planes with US 50 cals or British hispanos may be better for you, they are easier to hit targets with on deflection shots from further distances.
1) G2 best if your just getting into 109s, they climb well, they give you a basic idea of how to fight with one. They are the best 'balance' & and the torque & stall is not to hideous.
2) My fav is the G14 without gondolas and with the 30mm.
AS for the comment about e4=tnb k4=bnz I disagree. I have the best luck getting kills when I can pull a guy away from a horde and fight them in tight vert and/or rolling scissors-ish fight. Its about vertical reversals & getting the snapshot with the tater.
I'm with Ardy on that one, I don't think the K4 is a great bnz plane, the controls get too stiff at speed to really be effective that way. It's a fantastic roper though, and wonderful to fight in the very with, and rolling scissors too, if you can keep lagged so you don't overshoot. I frequently can't however.
If you're going to just bnz, you're better off picking a good high speed handling plane with a lot of gas, IMO.
I personally like the K4 more than the G14 because the G feels less stable to me when it gets slow. I hear a lot of guys say that it's more stable, but I personally have more trouble controlling it when very slow than I do in the Kurfurst. But that's just me, and I'm not really that good, though I hope to get there one day if I keep working on it.
The only ones I worry about the most when I run into them are the G2 and the K4.
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I've had far better luck against K4s when they decide to turn fight then against 109Fs.
That being said, the secret to the 109 from this 38 wreckage strewing cartoon pilot, is knowing how to aim the tators. Not much of a fight if the 109 guy can hit with it consistantly.
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fly what ever floats yer drift yo 109-F4 my kinda plane in turn fight killing bombers G14 K4 works for climbing E4 well not enough ammo be a fair fight maybe with the spit5 G2 G6 basically the same G2 is little bit better then the G6 though but realy only F4 or K4 realy dogfight with you the others just ho so
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fly what ever floats yer drift yo 109-F4 my kinda plane in turn fight killing bombers G14 K4 works for climbing E4 well not enough ammo be a fair fight maybe with the spit5 G2 G6 basically the same G2 is little bit better then the G6 though but realy only F4 or K4 realy dogfight with you the others just ho so
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Yes I know you don't think you should bother with things like punctuation, grammar, or spelling unless you are being graded on it. Yes that only makes people not even read your posts and dismiss anything you type automatically.
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I for one would like to see HTC give us a G-10 just so Wrag will shut up about it.
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:rofl
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Heh. :) Yep -- when I see a bunch of text without punctuation, I also just skip it. Without punctuation, reading it just results in it being an untranslatable stream of babble in my head.
Now, it used to be that writing didn't have punctuation or even spaces between words. Then punctuation and spaces were invented -- a great innovative leap. So, the above post perhaps is an homage to writing prior to 500-900 BC or so.
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My G14 VS K4 debate ends instantly with the gnarly blisters on the G14, I cannot get used to it, like the cleaner frontal view of the K4.
In a 1v1 the F4 is my fave, but considering more often than not a nice quiet 1 on 1 is not happening, I like the K4, get in, deliver the damage, and move on.. with the F4 you WILL get the kill.. but all to often you have to spend too much time saddling up on the other guy and get picked, or he gets picked by someone clearing your 12.
besides, just love that close pass high deflection shot with the K4 where you see the tater pop in the middle of the other guy's plane about D100 out as the guy shoots through your FOV in an instant, then ya just watch the buffer.. hehe :rock
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Taters are like another word that starts with T.... they just plane fun :)
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I like the 109F-4 and 109G-2s the best of the 109s. Even with the lesser gun package, they hold E pretty good. Read Agent360s post on the 109s. He has some great information in it. I think it is called stall tactics or some such.
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...where you see the tater pop in the middle of the other guy's plane about D100...
When you are having an "on" day and can make those shots at 600 yards, full deflection, THAT is satisfying. The Hail Mary of Taterdom. :aok
Well, that and seeing the buffer message, and then looking down at your ammo count and seeing "62" remaining. :devil
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When you are having an "on" day and can make those shots at 600 yards, full deflection, THAT is satisfying. The Hail Mary of Taterdom. :aok
Well, that and seeing the buffer message, and then looking down at your ammo count and seeing "62" remaining. :devil
Man, I hit a shot like that last night on my first hop. That was as good as it got though, my gunnery went swiftly downhill from there. Those do feel really really sweet though, no doubt.
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I like the 109F-4 and 109G-2s the best of the 109s. Even with the lesser gun package, they hold E pretty good. Read Agent360s post on the 109s. He has some great information in it. I think it is called stall tactics or some such.
The late model 109s such as the G14 & K4 have so much torque you can do some really amazing 'post-stall' moves, that no other plane can follow. In a straight forward sense, aka just flying with out pulling tricks, the G2 or the F4 is prob the easiest for people to get used too. The late war monsters, its all about the tricks, and really pulling for the vert fight. READ vert fight = Vert reversals.
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I have a hard time hitting with the 30 mm on the 109K-4 -- but I'm practicing as the next scenario (The Final Battle) will have a lot of K-4's, and I'm looking for flying one.
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The trick with the 30mm is to force the other plane into a knife fight, then when he is close, (100<) pop one in his general direction. Basically, be close. Also, visualize the shot before it happens and set it up. Plan ahead of time, on how your going to setup the shot. For example, try and bait the guy to drop his nose and dive on you, then pull up and into a reversal, and take the snap shot.
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The trick with the 30mm is to force the other plane into a knife fight, then when he is close, (100<) pop one in his general direction. Basically, be close. Also, visualize the shot before it happens and set it up. Plan ahead of time, on how your going to setup the shot. For example, try and bait the guy to drop his nose and dive on you, then pull up and into a reversal, and take the snap shot.
Ardy's got it. Anticipation is the key.
To hit with the tater (keeping in mind that my gunnery is the worst there is), you need a couple criteria to be satisfied:
1.) Accurate anticipation of the EAC's flight path (5-6 seconds ahead). This is usually the easy part as the majority of MA drivers will resort to a flat turn if in trouble.
2.) Roll your AC so that you need only worry about ballistics on a single plain. In other words, you want your wings perpendicular with the EAC's path of flight. This way, you dont have to make adjustments for lateral displacement of the round.
3.) Always shoot with the intention of hitting with the first round. That advice was given to me by moot years back (and from Agent360 to him, IIRC) and it made a heck of a lot of difference. 60 rounds doesn't exactly provide for a lengthy firing time and the space in between each round as it travels through the air is fairly significant. Its significant enough that if you try and "paint" the area where you think the EAC will be, per #1, he and four friends (exaggerating) can fly in between one round and the next without worry. If you have a shot, take it and limit it to 5 rounds, max. If your probability of hitting your target is low, don't pull the trigger - continue the setup until you have the shot you want. The K4's most excellent advantage is the ability to dictate the fight in the vertical which means you don't need to hope for a snapshot. If you have the time (admittedly rare in the MA), you should be able to work the EAC into a position where you can not possibly miss.
And use that throttle... 100% Mil and WEP aren't the only two options. Torque it to the left; chop it to the right. You'll get your shot eventually.