Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: grizz441 on December 15, 2009, 09:21:41 PM
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Some have asked me in the game about my 30mm shooting and even questioned it at times so I thought I'd give my insight on the Mk108 30mm.
The most general tip I can give is instead of visualizing lead [ ] this far in front of the bandit's flight path at a given range, visualize it [ ] this far. I think most players have a very natural feel for 50 caliber lead ranges. For the 30mm tater, you have to essentially double 50 cal lead at each distance i.e. 200 yards, the lead for the 30mm will be around the 400 yard lead for the 50 cal. If you connect with bbs and miss with taters, you most likely undershot. This is the most common way 109K4 pilots miss their shots. Get in the habit of trying to overshoot the bandit. It's incredibly difficult to overshoot with a tater and practicing this will train yourself to get the correct leads.
Here's a film of me forcing an overshoot on a fast plane that is nose down at me.
http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/CrossingShot.ahf (http://www.dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/draggon OWN.ahf) (Save target as)
I remember when I first learned how to do this, everything seemed to be happening so fast. You have to track the plane in your views as you roll around him and then somehow fire 30mms as he zips through your front canopy and hope you hit him. Here is essentially a play by play for what I try to do in each step of this overshoot maneuver. Watching the film first will help with the steps in these screenshots. (I apologize for the crappy graphics)
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/cs0a.jpg)
It is absolutely necessary to track him through your views the entire time. This is a picture of the bandit in my top view. The basic goal here is to force the bogey close to center and to fly out the bottom of this view. The red line shows his predicted flight path, and the green box shows my target area for where I want him to fly out of. As you can see I am pretty close here. I prefer for them to be slightly off center to the left and I will explain that in the next step.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/cs1a.jpg)
Here's the next view he is tracked through. As he flies through the center bottom of your top view in the previous screenie, switch to your front top view and he will fly out of the top center of this view. Again, the goal here is to force him out of the bottom of this view and into your front view for gun solution. This is right before I begin to twist my plane to the left.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/cs2a.jpg)
This is an important moment for twisting your plane preparing for gun solution. Rolling to the side is a very important step in setting yourself up for a gun solution with high visibility. You want the bogey to be sweeping through your front view Right to Left(my preference) or Left to Right. This is the best way to avoid having your view obstructed by the aircraft's frames. The 109K4 rolls best to the left and this is why I set up slightly off center as I set up for the shot. I like to be off centered slightly because when I twist into gun solution I like to have a little buffer zone for where I can use slight Positive G elevator to make last second adjustments if he alters course. If you are dead on and he alters his flight path going underneath your nose, you have to push negative G to get gun solution back on him and this is not a very accurate situation to be in. Essentially it gives you a little bit more room for error.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/cs3a.jpg)
As the bogey begins to come into your front view, I like to 'wait' on the horizon as I finish twisting into position. I try to set up my sitting position far ahead on his flight path (the red line). You almost want to get your nose as far out in front as you can, line it up, and 'wait' for him to fly into 100-200yd gun solution.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/cs4a.jpg)
This is a few milliseconds after I have fired 2 taters at him. The blue box represents the lead area you want to be in at this range (~150-200yds). The reason I extend the box quite a ways in front is because you can never lead too much! It's better to over lead, and spray 7-8 taters and let him fly through them, than under lead and hit with 4 bbs and miss with taters. If you aren't lined up perfectly on the center of his aircraft, there is some luck involved in hitting a wing. Taters sometimes have a nasty habit of missing above and behind wings, in the bends of the aircraft.
(http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo237/grizz441/cs5.jpg)
And a sweet kill shot for the reward. :)
Any questions children? :aok
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Awesome write up bro very helpful. I never thought about setting the shot up with the torque :o
:salute
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Nicely illustrated Grizz and pretty darn close to the way a snapshot is taught by TOPGUN. The idea is not to think of your gunsight first but your nose position and relationship with your target, i.e., you first maneuver not for the shot but to set up the proper crossing angle where you can maintain sight and control track crossing angle. After establishing the relationship you want, you then "fine tune" the shot based on pipper position and your estimate of the target's fight path. The real trick is that, unlike a tracking shot, you want to put a stream of rounds out in front of the target and let him fly through it. Your suggestions regarding a slight offset to allow you to pull a small amount of positive G and working with torque instead of against it are also excellent techniques.
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Nice article Grizz, thanks. I'm a pretty horrible shot and I've been really having trouble landing with the 37mm in my P-39D lately, this gave me a couple things to think about.
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Nice article Grizz, thanks. I'm a pretty horrible shot and I've been really having trouble landing with the 37mm in my P-39D lately, this gave me a couple things to think about.
Thanks guys...
You know, I might be totally wrong here but from experience I feel like the 37mm doesn't require as much lead as the german 30mm. I heard from a squaddie that the 37mm has a higher muzzle velocity and this would support my impression. The problem with the 37mm is that it has a slow rate of fire so you can't effectively shoot a barrage of 37mms in front of an enemy and hope he flies through them. It's a lot harder (for me anyways) to hit a crossing shot with a 37mm and it's probably just best to fire 1-2.
The 50cal/37mm is a terrible combo. The two guns have entirely different ballistics, if you line up the 37mm you miss with the 50cals, if you hit with 50cals you miss with the 37mm. If I flew a Yak9T/P39 regularly I'd program my joystick for one trigger to shoot all guns and the other to shoot 50 cals only.
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Thanks guys...
You know, I might be totally wrong here but from experience I feel like the 37mm doesn't require as much lead as the german 30mm. I heard from a squaddie that the 37mm has a higher muzzle velocity and this would support my impression.
Indeed the ballistics are very different. The MK 108 is firing a 330g projectile at 505 m/s (~42kJ muzzle energy) , the NS-37 a 735g projectile at 900 m/s (~298kJ muzzle energy!) - that's faster than a Hispano round.
Flat trajectory, slow ROF, and hitting power make the NS-37 something the ultimate sniper gun in Aces High. Unfortunately, that's not very suited to fighter combat.
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If I flew a Yak9T/P39 regularly I'd program my joystick for one trigger to shoot all guns and the other to shoot 50 cals only.
Would you possibly do this for the 152? I shoot all guns normally because those 20s do some good damage even if the 30 doesnt land, but you are wasting those tator rounds that could be used for just snapshots. With how long you can stay in the air in a furball with just 50% and a DT would it be wise to do this to get more kills?
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Would you possibly do this for the 152? I shoot all guns normally because those 20s do some good damage even if the 30 doesnt land, but you are wasting those tator rounds that could be used for just snapshots. With how long you can stay in the air in a furball with just 50% and a DT would it be wise to do this to get more kills?
Sometimes yes, I will only fire 20mms. If a plane is roped out or I feel a kill is a gimme, I'll save the taters. I usually just tap 'F' on my keyboard to fire them. As far as only shooting taters in certain spots, I wouldn't really recommend this because the 20mms are very lethal and none of us are perfect with our tatering skills. It's always a pleasant surprise when you mislead with the 30mm and light him up with 20mms instead, knocking off a stab or something of that nature. Besides, there's so much ammo, I don't think uber conservation is that high of a priority anyways.
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Indeed the ballistics are very different. The MK 108 is firing a 330g projectile at 505 m/s (~42kJ muzzle energy) , the NS-37 a 735g projectile at 900 m/s (~298kJ muzzle energy!) - that's faster than a Hispano round.
Flat trajectory, slow ROF, and hitting power make the NS-37 something the ultimate sniper gun in Aces High. Unfortunately, that's not very suited to fighter combat.
Rgr, thanks for the info Snailman. Sounds like I need to fly the Yak9T again and perhaps lead with the 37mm as I would with a say... German 20mm. I bet that would be close to the same.
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Rgr, thanks for the info Snailman. Sounds like I need to fly the Yak9T again and perhaps lead with the 37mm as I would with a say... German 20mm. I bet that would be close to the same.
I would say, lead like a Hispano or .50 cal. The NS 37 has the flattest long range trajectory in game.
A quick & dirty comparison of a few guns
(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2766/clipboard01wq.jpg)
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Thanks guys...
You know, I might be totally wrong here but from experience I feel like the 37mm doesn't require as much lead as the german 30mm. I heard from a squaddie that the 37mm has a higher muzzle velocity and this would support my impression. The problem with the 37mm is that it has a slow rate of fire so you can't effectively shoot a barrage of 37mms in front of an enemy and hope he flies through them. It's a lot harder (for me anyways) to hit a crossing shot with a 37mm and it's probably just best to fire 1-2.
The 50cal/37mm is a terrible combo. The two guns have entirely different ballistics, if you line up the 37mm you miss with the 50cals, if you hit with 50cals you miss with the 37mm. If I flew a Yak9T/P39 regularly I'd program my joystick for one trigger to shoot all guns and the other to shoot 50 cals only.
I don't have much experience with the german 30mm at all, but I would agree with this assessment. The ROF is really low with the 37mm in the 39D but the trajectory seems to be more flat. The gun arrangement on the 39D is really poor, I tend to use the cannon for snap shots and fire single rounds at a time (mostly missing ;)) and the MG's for tracking shots or stern attacks. One of the lessons I quickly learned was really trying to line up the shot along the fuselage, if you're sighting down and firing down the fuselage it pretty much doubles your margin of error versus if you're firing at the wings.
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The P39 uses the M4 not the NS37 the yak has. Muzzle velocity is 610 m/s and the projectile was 608g...(M54 shell)
Outstanding write up. I've always felt that proper management of the views and line of sight are very under appreciated. Exceptionally well written and illustrated :salute
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OH boy ill have to get back in the 109's i almost gave up on them...... because i cant hit the broad side of a barn.
I didnt realize how much leak i need.
Thanks Grizz. :aok
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I started shooting these types of shots a few months ago and upped my hit percentage from 4-5 to 8-10, it made a huge difference. When I get hits like the one you have pictured above though, I tend to get accused of headons though. Kind of amusing really. Great write up, thanks!
Also, I tried to dl the film but Firefox didn't give me the save target as option. The only thing I could do was to save the link itself or open the file. When I open the file I just get a page of gibberish. Any tips on how to handle that with Firefox?
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I started shooting these types of shots a few months ago and upped my hit percentage from 4-5 to 8-10, it made a huge difference. When I get hits like the one you have pictured above though, I tend to get accused of headons though. Kind of amusing really. Great write up, thanks!
Also, I tried to dl the film but Firefox didn't give me the save target as option. The only thing I could do was to save the link itself or open the file. When I open the file I just get a page of gibberish. Any tips on how to handle that with Firefox?
Try right clicking, selecting "save link as" then when it gives you the dialogue box make sure you use the pull down box for "Save as type" and select all files. Should save it in the correct (.ahf) format.
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Worked, thanks Soulyss!
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Mild hijack again:
Difference between 30mm MK 108 and 37mm NS-37 ballistics illustrated:
Both guns convergence was set in hangar to 150 yards, then fired at target set at 800 yards. Note the difference in projectile drop.
MK 108 (BF 109K)
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1805/mk108.jpg)
NS-37 (Yak-T)
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3905/ns37.jpg)
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Question for Grizz?
when you are taking the explained above shot, are you pulling any G's? or do you unload then shoot?
edit: nevermind , I missed this part:
Your suggestions regarding a slight offset to allow you to pull a small amount of positive G and working with torque instead of against it are also excellent techniques.
and as others have posted, Most Excellent Detailed Write-Up, Grizz :aok
Question for Lusche?
when you are testing ballistics of Gun Platforms are you using autopilot ( X ) or do you use autopilot angle ( Shift X )?
I prefer autopilot angle ( Shift X ), myself.....when doing those type test.........
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Question for Lusche?
when you are testing ballistics of Gun Platforms are you using autopilot ( X ) or do you use autopilot angle ( Shift X )?
I have used both in the past, sometimes auto angle wasn't holding the nose better at one point than autopilot.
In this particular example I was holding the angle manually, as I knew already the differences would be so huge that it would suffice.
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Isnt there a way in the off line drone shoot flying to set it up so that there is an indicator to tell you how much lead you need on a target?
I'm may be wrong, but I thought there was.
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Isnt there a way in the off line drone shoot flying to set it up so that there is an indicator to tell you how much lead you need on a target?
I'm may be wrong, but I thought there was.
It is on the clipboard/arena set-up then scroll down one of the lists (forget which) and turn on lead computing gunsight.
SEsaber
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Awesome write up . I know this is an older thread but very helpful . Some of the new guy's mite want to read it too .
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It is on the clipboard/arena set-up then scroll down one of the lists (forget which) and turn on lead computing gunsight.
SEsaber
Alternatively there is a key combination, I believe shift-tab, that will turn on lead compute gunsighting, and then you can scroll through targets with the tab key.
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Alternatively there is a key combination, I believe shift-tab, that will turn on lead compute gunsighting, and then you can scroll through targets with the tab key.
It still needs to be set up in the arena settings...otherwise we'd all have it in the mains. :D
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Everyone knows this was Grizz's excuse to post screenies of a sick tater shot on Draggon LAR LAR
:D :D :D
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It still needs to be set up in the arena settings...otherwise we'd all have it in the mains. :D
But the context was offline drones and I believe it's set to work offline by default.
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Flench
DO NOT USE THE TARGETING COMPUTER FOR LONGER THAN A WEEK!!!!!!!
just use it long enough to get the idea of the gun you are trying to learn then stop.
it will screw up you hand eye coordination and your mental ability to aim and shoot on the fly in the fluid moments of a fight.
if you use it for a prolonged period of time then even in the MA where you know it doesn't exist you will subconsciously look for it. the brain, like every other part the body, if given an ability to use an outside source as a crutch it will. once your brain has learned this bad behavior it becomes very difficult to break yourself of it and then you must retrain yourself to shoot without it from scratch.
this will make you mentally lazy after prolonged use!!!! not that i think that its possible for you to get any lazier mentally without slipping into a coma that is!!!! :huh :headscratch: :huh
:banana: :banana:
:bolt:
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note taking . thx
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Isnt there a way in the off line drone shoot flying to set it up so that there is an indicator to tell you how much lead you need on a target?
I'm may be wrong, but I thought there was.
The toggle is found under Options > Arena Setup > Environment > Arena Settings > Flight Mode Flags. You'll see a menu where you can turn on the lead computing gunsight and the dive bomb sight.
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Grizz you lie.....YOU HAX!!!!! lol
-BigBOBCH
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Just found this, great thread, very good info.
works for all calibre weapons too, if you are flying a G6 with 20mm you will also benefit from using the front quarter views to set up snapshots.
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Awesome write up bro very helpful. I never thought about setting the shot up with the torque :o
:salute
Everything in the K4 is about using the torque to your advantage :aok
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Everything in the K4 is about using the torque to your advantage :aok
Torque is not exclusive to the k4.....Anytime you get slow (especially in a close-in knife fight) you need to be cognizant of the role torque plays in your ability to turn.