Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: weazel on October 17, 1999, 02:42:00 PM
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(http://www.stormbirds.com/warbirds/profiles/white8_1.jpg)
Any thoughts on adding this beauty?
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You get to handle all the hate mail from mustang pilots who can't outrun it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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//Greycap from red two, 2 109's turning in behind you//
//nothing behind Greycap, your all clear. Whats that now 33? beers on me at st. Croix//
Any guesses who Greycap was? <G>
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They won't be able to get it at fields either because of the deadly AAA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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My guess at who Greycap was,if he was American I have 3 who it may have been.
#1 Richard Bong
#2 Thomas McGuire
#3 David McCampbell
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You can have your 262 if I can have my F-86...
MarkAT
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Ahh, St.Croix and 33 is the clue, Americans didn't have a field at St. Croix, Brits did (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) GreyCap is the handle of my absolute favorite fighter pilot of WWII. I read his book like it's a bible.
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//Greycap from red two, 2 109's turning in behind you//
//nothing behind Greycap, your all clear. Whats that now 33? beers on me at st. Croix//
Any guesses who Greycap was? <G>
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I believe GreyCap was Johnie Johnson of the RAF. I read a book of his many years ago.
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WooHOo! Give the man a Ceegar :>
Cpt. J. E. Johnson of the RAF. Had 38 Confirmed kills and led the Canadian Contingent of the RAF for a good portion of the war. Also flew in the war for 5 years and was only hit once the whole time. Amazing man, went to Korea after WWII and was an advisor to the American Airforce until his death.
Somehow I just _knew_ someone here would recognize his handle sooner or later...
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//Greycap from red two, 2 109's turning in behind you//
//nothing behind Greycap, your all clear. Whats that now 33? beers on me at st. Croix//
Any guesses who Greycap was? <G>
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as one of the (ex) stang pilots go ahead add it in...... already being nailed in it by a late war machine.
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Aircat shut up!!!
Just kidding dude (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://www.dtccom.net/~cottonbg/b24sml.gif)
Cool! Do it like WB's does, i.e. 1 day every 3 weeks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ( except for historcal senarios..
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SixPack in AH
Six-pk in WB
450th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
The 'Cottontails'[/b]
www.dtccom.net/~cottonbg/ (http://www.dtccom.net/~cottonbg/)
[This message has been edited by Six-pk (edited 10-20-1999).]
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"jet day"? From what I've heard about it, it leads to endless whining...
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Juzz: There's not really that much whining. There are a lot of (quiet) guys that love jet day - just look at the Main Arena pilot count on jet day. One thing that would make it more fun IMHO is if the Meteor and P-59 or P-80 were released. Or maybe an F8F, Tempest Mk II, or P-51H. It's not that historical (historical means Me 262 is fighting 9/44), but would be fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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What about the Heinkel He162, it was supposedly even better than the Messerschmitt.
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Well yeah this will be a really good idea. BUT. Can we make it more accurate than in WB? Thay did actualy originaly design the 262 as a bomber. So can we give it the capability to carry bombs?
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1st LT Chris "B-Town" Bradbury
332nd Flying Mongrels
Guard Dog's FL
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The 262 was designed as a fighter. Hitler decided it would be a bomber or they couldn't produce it. It was quickly changed to add that capability and failed in it. Had the original design been adhered to it would have been a more formidable opponent than it was.
MarkAT
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Mark:
I don't think it failed at anything. They just didn't build enough. It could carry 1000kg of bombs and still evade interceptors.
Juzz:
Yes the He 162 had better performance than the Me 262. Notably, it could climb close to 4000fpm at sea level. It had a fabulous rate of roll. It also had a more reliable engine (BMW vs. JuMo). But it only had 2 x MG151/20 and about 20 minutes fuel endurance at sea level. A perfect Arena plane for sure!
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Gentlemen,
You boys sure threw me for a loop! I noticed some 500 server requests from Aces High on the Stormbirds server and couldn't figure out where they had originated from. Looks like Weazel's graphics were the source. Whew!
Anyway, some pretty salient points have already been made concerning the Me 262, so I won't beat a dead horse. You all see to be pretty close to the mark anyway!
It is worth noting; however, that the Germans actually built and flew far more 262s than is commonly believed. We're seeing solid evidence that the total figure is much closer to 2,000+ than the numbers you typically read about.
Also, the Fuhrer's decision to convert the design for ground attack (bombing) was largely ignored, so it is true (as I think someone mentioned already) that the plane did see primary duty as a fighter after all. It was more a shortage of, well, everything (fuel, engines, pilots) that kept them from prolonging the air war, but that's another discussion.
Although many sims have included the 262 recently, I have to admire the approach that Aces High has taken. After all, you can only do so much before any sense of realism is lost. Looks like a great sim, and a squared-away group. My compliments.
Regards,
Chuck
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Webmaster
www.stormbirds.com (http://www.stormbirds.com)
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funked:
That is something I have wanted to say for a long time: "262 failed at nothing". It was different people who decided what to do with 262 and wo designed it.
It's kind of same assumption if you put me flying drunken a Fw 190 and compare it to when I am sober ( leph can witness ), I am not fit to fly a 190 or any other plane for that matter when drunk - same argument for 262 vs 262-bomber duty. Maybe not 2 convinsing but to me at the moment after 3 days of drinki iy all makes sense.
//fats
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Hehe, yeah you didn't fly real good, but damn you were funny. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Strangely enough, I tend to get more kills drunk than sober. Hmmm...
Jut to stay on topic... I can't wait for my P47!
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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Fats:
Yes I agree with you. Saying that the combat results of the 262 or the Me 163 indicated the design "failed" is like saying that the combat results of the MG42 or the Mauser carbine indicate that its design "failed" too.
We shouldn't confuse design qualities with production quantity/delivery schedule, tactical situations (i.e. numbers), fuel supply situation, strategic situation, pilot training, etc.
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Wasn't the first 262 kilt gotten by a P-47?
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Me262 A-model was fighter and B-model was bomber model, which could fit two 1000lb bombs below the nose fuselage area.
There were also 2-seater Me262 which was recon plane / trainer I think.
Me262s also could carry air to air rockets.
(WGr21, R4M.. something that way)
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Fishu,
You're pretty close on all counts here. The pure fighter was designated the Me 262A-1a, while the fighter-bomber variant was the Me 262A-2a.
Two-seaters were produced as either dual control Me 262B-1a models or as RADAR equipped Nightfighters, which were known as Me 262B-1a/U1.
Many Me 262A-1a's were modified to carry R4M air to air rockets, and these were normally referred to as Me 262A-1a/R1 models (some sources say /R7).
Regards,
Chuck
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Actually, I was in arena once and HiTech said he has plans for adding 262 at some point.
Was quite a while ago though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Whoopie. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) The moment they add the 262, I'll be taking my business elsewhere. And it's not because a Mustang can't outrun it... it's because the only thing that can effectively fight a jet is another jet. The moment jets are introduced, effective plane choices get reduced from X (where X is > 1) to 1.
I'd much rather see latewar uberbirds (with props) before seeing even one jet.
There was nothing to necessarily indicate that the 262 was a failure. However, there's alot of evidence (including its dismal kill record) that indicates that the Me163 was a failure.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Gritz,
In reply to your query about the first combat Me 262 kill, you may be surprised to learn that the B-17 earns the honors here.
The first known combat loss of a Me 262 came on July 18, 1944. The pilot, Hauptman Werner Thierfelder of EKDO 262 was killed in the engagement. He was flying a Me 262 S6 (Wnr. 130011) near Landsberg when he fell victim to the .50s of American bombers.
Although the Me 262 proved incredibly difficult to hit, it could not sustain very much damage ... especially to the temperamental engines.
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A lot? (at least some amount) of 262s were built in Checkoslovakia right after the war. If you take a trip to the airplane museum near Prague you can see one of them.
Bod
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What the heck, give them the Me-262's. Also, give them the extremely low engine reliability. Give them the cannons that jammed under even moderate G's. Make them fly the engines rather than the airplane to prevent flameouts. Give 'em bombs without the ability to dive bomb due to the (too) rapid increase in speed during a dive and the absence of dive brakes. Let them experience nose gear failures from all but the best landings and ground handling. Don't forget the excessively long paved/concrete runways that would have to be located far from the action. Last give them this fuel thirsty airplane that would require a 100% load just to take off, climb to alt, engage a threat, then quickly land before becoming a glider. Sorry, don't mean to sound like I don't want Me-262's. In the right hands, it could be killer but without the high skill needed to manage all of its peculiarities it might prove more deadly to its pilots than its enemies. It'll be great for scenerios, no doubt. I'd hate to see it become the dweeb plane of choice.
Where are the new-build Me-262's and a two seat trainer restoration? Right here in Everett, WA! Love this plane... http://www.avphoto.com/stormbird/ (http://www.avphoto.com/stormbird/)
(please be patient, graphics intensive)
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 11-29-1999).]
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 11-29-1999).]
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I wonder why Allied even bothered to ship 262s to US (opration Lusty), if they were worth crap. Or maybe they weren't as arrogant as some posters on this thread ?
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-30-1999).]
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They shipped versions of EVERYTHING to the U.S. not just Me262, 163's and HE162's.
JU88's ME110,210, 410 also made it along with many versions of 109's,190's and alot
of others.
Same with the Japanese aircraft.
Many of the remaining aircraft went to the Smithsonian right after the evalution trials.
Others into land fill. PAX River Naval airbase in Maryland has several ME 262's buried under runways (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-Westy
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MiG Eater,
Rarely have I seen a more succinct -- and more accurate -- description of the Me 262's marked shortcomings. While I remain an ardent proponent of the aircraft, it is important for all of us to remember that the Me 262 was by no means a perfect combat aircraft. While the Schwalbe's potential was clearly in evidence, it was no "magic bullet" as some would have us believe.
In the right hands, we are talking about an absolutely unstoppable airplane; in the hands of a novice, it was a slow-turning target with some frightening vulnerabilities. (I suppose we could make the same case for almost any aircraft.) In my view, the Me 262 was indeed a quantum leap, but it was certainly not without it's troubles.
All of this notwithstanding, the Me 262 was still some 3-5 years further advanced than any contemporary jet designs, so it was very important to the US military (and to the domestic aircraft industry) to bring these machines back to the States for testing. The Me 262 program under Operation LUSTY is described at www.stormbirds.com/squadron. (http://www.stormbirds.com/squadron.) Other teams collected well known types like the Me 109G-10, Fw 190D-9 and Ta 152.
Westy's observations are essentially correct; however, the legends of the PAX River NAS landfill are really more steeped in the Arado 234's story than in the Me 262. Notwithstanding, the Me 262A-1a now in the USAF Museum at Wright-Patterson AFB was salvaged from this very scrap heap in 1957.
The real shocker is that a majority of the German warplanes that were not destined for museums were moved from storage in the old Douglas aircraft factory at Orchard Park, Ill. and used as backfill for the runways of an airfield we now know as Chicago's O'Hare International Airport.
Moving on to the matter of engines ...
Few people seem to realize this, but the original Jumo 004A was astonishingly reliable, often logging more than 200 hours or more between failures. The main problem with the production engines was that Junkerswas compelled to assemble the 004B with 1/3 less high grade steel. The predictable result was a temperamental engine that was extremely vulnerable to heat damage and related failures.
Per Bod's posting, the Czech Avia company did assemble a small number of Me 262s under the S-92 (and CS-92 for 2 seaters) designation. As far as we know, one example of each has survived. A photo of one of these S-92s was used as the basis for the album cover for Blue Oyster Cult's "Secret Treaties" album several years ago. How's that for useless trivia? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That's more than enough of me for now ...
Regards,
Chuck
P.S. The official site for the new-build Me 262s is www.stormbirds.com/classic (http://www.stormbirds.com/classic) -- however, I would certainly recommend taking a look at the avphoto pages MiG Eater provides above.
{Message edited to correct a faulty URL}
[This message has been edited by StormMaster (edited 12-06-1999).]
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Thanks Chuck for the compliment concerning the Me-262 shortcomings. My post wasn't meant to berate the Schwalbe but provide a glimpse of the reality faced by the Luftwaffe crews that flew it. I am quite enamored with this plane. In fact, I am working on the restorations and new build -262's in Everett, WA at Paine Field. If anyone is in the Seattle area or plans to visit, post here or email me (jclark@avphoto.com) and I will setup a tour for you.
There is a wealth of info to view and draw an historical perspective from. There are the occasional visitors that flew with and against this airplane who provide even more operational insight a than facts or figures alone can provide.
I'm the web master at the avphoto.com site and I hope to keep people updated on the progress of the original and the flyers. Please view Chuck's Stormbird web page as listed in the previous post for great insight on the -262. I've included the official Stormbirds site link at the bottom of my page as well.
John
[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 12-05-1999).]
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*PUNT* (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Et tu, Juzz ?
Welcome aboard, Sir (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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ahh bla bla bla add it and then add Su-37 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ahh, so when/if the 262 is included there need to be some steel plants put in too. When these are damaged/destroyed jets taking off will suffer more from engine failure (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vänr. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)