Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: leonid on October 21, 1999, 07:29:00 AM
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Pyro,
If, by chance, the situation ever arises for the entry of the Airacobra into AH, would you consider the following? The VVS P-39 w/o wing guns and Pokryshkin's markings.
I figure since it was only the Russians who turned it into an ace machine that their version of the Kobra be represented. Besides, the USAAF and RAF thought it was a dog.
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 10-21-1999).]
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Pass the P-39 right on by. Go for the P-63.
--Westy
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Sorry Westy, but it was quite the aircraft among certain fighter air regiments. You almost never hear anything about the P-63 when reading literature about the VVS.
The battle of the Kuban Bridgehead might have something to do the Kobra's stature in the VVS. It was an air campaign fought from April to May of 1943, mostly in support of limited offensives around Novorissisk and Krymskaya. It was the first instance of the VVS going on a major offensive footing. The VVS air commander of the sector, Vershinin, said that at the height of the battle an aircraft was falling from the sky every ten minutes. On many days there was as much as 100 engagements. The Russians considered this campaign as the 'coming of age' of the VVS. And this is where the P-39 made its mark as a formidable fighter. With units like the 16 GvIAP and 45 IAP. The battle of the Kuban Bridgehead was as important to the Soviet Union as the battle of Midway was to the USA.
Just a little history from around the world ...
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 11-02-1999).]
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Hmmmm.... a P-63 KingCobra in VVS markings?
I'm all for it ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-21-1999).]
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I am all for the russian markings but look in your magazine shop, one of the new aircraft mags(air combat?) has a reassessment of the success of the P39 in the pacific.
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I dont CARE what markings it has.. I would love that HUGE cannon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I loved it in WB and now my flying style now matches it better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) .... I know a lot of people hated it when I HOed them in it <G>
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Actually Leonid I am all for the P39 and in
Soviet markings.
I figured Aces High seemd to be talkin about
modeling the exotic a bit and figured I'd holler out for the btter performing Cobra (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm not an expert on Kuban but I've read about it. That would make an awesome scenario.
-Westy
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aircat:
Well, if you like the P-39 you might like the Yak-9T even better. This aircraft also came out about the time of Kursk. It was a Yak-9 with the cockpit pushed astern a tad to make room for the NS-37, a 37mm cannon that was quite a bit better than the P-39's M-3. Due to the cockpit reconfiguration, the Yak-9T had a little faster response when pitched up too. Combine the firepower of the NS-37 with the 12.7mm UBS on the left nose and you have in the Yak-9T an aircraft that punched out more armament mass per sec than the 5-gun configuration of the Bf 109G-10 (two 13mm mg, three 20mm cannon)!
westy:
The Kingcobra would be cool too, actually (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 10-22-1999).]
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Leonid - I think P-63 would be a much better competitor than the P-39 when you look at the current planes in AH.
With the laminar flow wings, two-stage supercharger, and water injection, this plane could do 425 mph at 25,000 feet and climb in excess of 4500 fpm. Ailerons were reported to be excellent even at high speeds, and the turn performance was significantly better than anything in the US arsenal. This plane would be a monster in a dogfight.
Armament was 2 x .50 cal in the nose (200 rounds each), 2 .50 cal in the wings (900 rounds each) plus an improved 37mm cannon (M10) with 58 rounds. More lethal armament than the P-39, and a much longer firing time.
2400 of these were supplied to the USSR, which is a very large number compared to N1K or Fw 190A-8 production.
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Agreed Funk.
Another plus for the P-63 is that it is the 2nd fastest accelerator in the US Arsenal, behind the P-39 (1st), and ahead of the P-51(3rd).
Would really be a terror in the arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I would love to see it modeled.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
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Oh, I didn't mean to model it now. No, no, no! With all this late war hardware? That would be suicide (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) No, I meant when the time arrives to put in mid-war aircraft that it be included. Along with the Bf 109G-6, Yak-9D, Fw 190A-4, P-38, P-47, etc. etc. etc.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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cc ... I'm all for the "Iron Dog" in Ruskie markings.. P39 or 63
(http://www.iinet.net.au/~gryfyn/temp/p39-1.gif)
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Combine the firepower of the NS-37 with the 12.7mm UBS on the left nose and you have in the Yak-9T an aircraft that punched out more armament mass per sec than the 5-gun configuration of the Bf 109G-10 (two 13mm mg, three 20mm cannon)!
Left nose? It had two noses?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!
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Verm... isn't it amazing how slow the US aircraft accelerate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS - Where did you get that acceleration info??
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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SnakeEyes
Acceleration information is in Chapter 5 of:
Title: America's Hundred Thousand
Author: Francis Dean
ISBN: 0-7643-0072-5
I figure you already have a copy, but I thought I would list it out for some of the guys that haven't seen it yet.
Easily the best US Fighter Book available,with detailed technical data and information.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Actually, I don't have it Verm... my wife saw the pricetag. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Think Christmas SnakeEye's <G>
And drop lots of hints (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Keep in mind that the AHT acceleration figures are calculated - not measured. Also they are at 250 mph, a fairly high speed. Acceleration varies greatly as a function of speed, so an acceleration ranking at one speed can not be generalized to "better acceleration".
Just doin' my job as NerdBoy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
P.S. I forgot acceleration also varies greatly with altitude. The higher you go, there is less drag for a given IAS, so weight is more important. And of course the ability to make power up high (P-47 and P-38 are the kings) is critical.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-15-1999).]
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Hey, O Funky Smelling One (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hey, what have you heard back from Wright Patt? Still willing to meet you up there to do some research.
Have you seen the flight test data that the US Naval Aviation Historic Center has up? Looks to be primary test data quality to me. Not enough probably to do a flight model, but still good quality data.
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org4-8.htm (http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org4-8.htm)
Includes data for: F4F-4,F9F Panther,F4U-4 Corsair, F6F-5 Hellcat,F2H-2 Banshee,F3D-2 Skyknight,F7F-3N Tigercat, AD/A-1 (AD-4) Skyraider, AD-5 Skyraider, A3D/A-3 Skywarrior, PBM-5 Mariner, P2V-4 Neptune, PBY-6A Catalina, P2V-5 Neptune, PB4Y-2 Privateer, PV-1 Ventura, PB2Y-5R Coronado, TBF-1 Avenger, SB2C-5 Helldiver, SBD-5 Dauntless, OS2U-3 Kingfisher, PBJ-1H Mitchell (B-25), R5C-1 Commando (C-46), and many many more. All from declassified Navy source sheets.
What I have looked at so far is really good.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Yeah that Navy stuff is cool!
It looks like I will be going to WPAFB the day after Thanksgiving. I still have to confirm with the research guy.
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Please excuse my ramblings but...
And of course the ability to make power up high (P-47 and P-38 are the kings) is critical.
Um... P38??? Allison engines??? You sure???
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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The Yak-9T did have very powerful cannon, however, read this paragraph from `Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War: Volume 1: Single Engined Fighters' by Yefim Gordon and Dmitri Khazanov
ISBN 1 85780 083 4
`Pilot V. Khomyakov and armament engineer A. A. Aronov, who conducted flight tests of the Tak-9TK in October 1943, noted that the flying weight, centre of gravity position, handling qualites and performance varied in accordance with the gun installed (They were testing the 20mm ShVAK, the 23mm VYa, and the 37mm and the 45mm NS). When firing the ShVAK and VYa cannon the recoil was imperceptible even at minimum maneuvering speeds, whereas the recoil of the NS-37 greatly affected handling. At an indicated airspeed of 186 to 217 mph (300 to 350 km/h) the aircraft swung violently, and it was only possible to aim the first salvo. With the NS-45, only a single shot could be fired at near top speed.' pp-146
However, they began adding muzzle brakes to the cannons, and the Yak-9K was built with the 45mm NS. (29 shells). However, the plane wasn't very maneuverable in the vertical plane, and the book states that the great recoil caused many servicing problems, such as leaks etc. However, it could set a building, a ground vehicle, or locomotive on fire with a single shot! Ouch!
The Yak-9UT went into production with the 37mm cannon, but only saw action the last few days of the war over berlin according to the authors.
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Snakeyes:
The P-38 used turbosuperchargers, which don't lose performance with altitude as much as a mechanical supercharger.
The down side is that they are bulky, so you need a large plane (like a B-17). On the P-38 the turbos and all the plumbing occupied most of the aft part of the booms. The P-47 used a mechanical supercharger AND a turbo which is the reason for the fat belly on the Jug - it's full of turbo plumbing.
Anyways the turbos allowed the P-38 to maintain full power up to 25k plus. The V-1710-111/113 in the P-38L could make 1600 hp Combat Power from the deck up to 28700 feet, and it could make 1100 hp Normal Power up to 33800 feet.
Likewise the R-2800-59 in the P-47D-20 (and later) could do 2300 hp Combat Power from the deck right up to 31000 feet with no drop off.
Mechanically supercharged engines, even ones with two stages like the later Merlins and the R-2800's in the F4U and F6F, could only make full power up to 20k or so before losing power.
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Of course, early P38's couldn't make the full power at alt because of the engine cooling problems. The occurrence of backfires reshaping the wing leading edge is pretty annoying too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)