Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Bullethead on October 28, 1999, 12:27:00 AM
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Maybe I had a streak of bad luck but in 4 N1 hops in a row I lost 3 entire wings and a whole right horizontal stabilizer from 1 ping each.
1 wing was lost to a single 30mm shell from a 109. OK, I'll live with that. 1 wing was PROBABLY lost to a single 20mm shell from a spit. Might have been a BB hit but we'll say 20mm and put it in the "dubious but OK for now" box. But 1 wing and the tail were lost to 1 each .50cal bullet from 51s. That's where I gotta draw the line. Maybe the ping sound represents more than 1 bullet impact, but the sound only played once in each case.
Anybody else noting this sorta thing? Or was I just running into a lot of Golden BBs tonight?
-Bullethead <CAF>
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Dude,
Considering the somewhat "lighter" armour of the japanese fighters was it possible that the .50 cal round was a pilot kill?
It's usually the round you don't see that kills you, (or the last one you heard)!
Spotcha in the Air
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For it's size it's a pretty heavy plane. Very similar to the Fw 190 in dimensions and weight. It was all-metal, with armor plate and self-sealing tanks. Should be plenty rugged.
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Raxx: Its a common misconception that Japanese planes were "fragile" and "weak", mostly due to their early fighters like the Zero's, lacking pilot armour and self sealing tanks. Japanese Engineers learned their lesson quickly and late war aircraft like the N1K2 included armor, self sealing tanks, and were designed much more robustly.
Bullethead: No your not imagining things (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I noticed the very same thing, and several squad members that popped in last night to test out the George, also commented on this fact of its extremely fragile tail and control surfaces, and the fairly fragile wings. I was going to mention this in another post but since you brought it up, I will comment in this thread.
Pyro, is the N1K2 intentionally this fragile? If so could you please comment on the historical data and reasoning for this?
It is my understanding, that the N1K2 had both adequate pilot armour and self sealing fuel tanks, so I wouldnt' think there would be a need to artifically weakened the "toughness" of the aircraft (like the Zero in WB's) to simulate this proverbial achilles heel.
Combat reports from WWII, repeatedly state that American HellCat pilots were shocked at the durability of the N1K2, and that it absorbed much more punishment than typical of earlier models of Japanese fighter aircraft.
Last night I repeatedly died when I lost the entire tail (horizontal and vertical) to single ping long distance passes, where most of the enemy tracers visibly missed the aircraft. Again mostly due to flying style, these deaths were to the typically weaker armed aircraft in AH's, P-51's and Me-109's (1x20mm armament ususally according to priv conversations with their pilots afterwards).
Theoretically the N1K2 should be as robust an aircraft, as any other of its general size, weight, and type of construction. Aluminum is Aluminum, and it doesn't matter if its American, British, German or Japanese, since it doesn't change its physical properties.
I'm not asking for the N1K2 (9,500 lbs) to be as robust as the P-51 (11,600 lbs) or the F4U (14,200 lbs), but realistically it should be more robust than either the Me109G-10 (7,400 lbs), the Spitfire IX (7,500 lbs), or the La-5fn (7,400 lbs). Note: Weights are approximate combat weights, and are used to merely indicate size of construction.
And we all know how much of an aerial tank the Spitfire in AH is.
Yes guys, I realize its a beta and damage values are being adjusted often (before someone says it) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But I just wanted to express my concern to Pyro, and beg that we don't fall back to the fallacy that "Its a Japanese plane, so its made of tissue paper and should be extremely weak under enemy fire".
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
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Im not sure where you got the wieghts from, but the TO wieght for the P51D is 10,100lbs and MAX wieght is 12,100lbs how ever for figureing armor mass/density you should be taking the empty wieght cause of differant ammo, guns, and fuel capacitys and the P51D is 7635lbs empty.
for those who use metric,
empty = 3470.4545~ kilo
T.O. = 4590.9090~ kilo
MAX = 5500.00 kilo
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Just shot whole wing off N1K2 (at least I have seen it hit for the deck, missing the whole wing).
Still, there was no kill for 10 minutes or so. We were at some 6-7k, so no 1 winged plane could glide that long. Seems to me he tried to ditch, and only then I got the kill. Better late than never, I guess (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hristo,
I/JG 51
(http://www.angelfire.com/ut/jg51/images/j86.gif)
Jagdgeschwader 51 “Mölders” (http://www.angelfire.com/ut/jg51/jg51.html)
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Verm: I concur - I've read 1st hand accounts by Hellcat and Corsair pilots where they couldn't understand why the "Zeke" they were shooting at wouldn't blow up. Then they RTBed and learned it was a George.
Aircat: You are correct - empty weight is more appropriate. As long as the aircraft dimensions are roughly the same, similar powerplant type, similar materials, etc., we should be able to use empty weight as a rough gauge of structural durability.
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Yup, I have to agree here, the N1 appears to be made out of paper mache in AH. pretty much getting hit ONCE by any single plane in AH while in a N1 and your done for. Last night I lost the entire tail section and one wing several times even from high deflection shots by a passing NME. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Brucifer <CAF>
AH CPID: Brucifer
AW CPID: Brew!
E-mail: bmckamey@mmcable.com
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Raxx said:
>>>>>>>>> Considering the somewhat "lighter" armour of the japanese fighters was it possible that the .50 cal round was a pilot kill? <<<<<<<<<<
Well, like's been said, the N1 was as durable as they come for its size and weight.
And none of these were pilot kills on me. I rode them all the way in and I could see where the wings and tail had been shot off.
-Bullethead <CAF>
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Verm said:
>>>>>>>> And we all know how much of an aerial tank the Spitfire in AH is. <<<<<<<<<<<
Gawd, that's the understatement of the beta so far (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
-Bullethead <CAF>
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I've noticed this as well. For now I think I'll refer to the plane as the "One ping, lose a wing" fighter. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hitech, can u PLEASE explain to this guys what really happens? Tell here what u told me in the arena:
The bullets from enemy aircrafts u see, isnt what exatly he fired.
So? It means, somethings what u see isnt what is exatly happening!
Im tired of guys who says: Oh, i heard only one ping and lost my wing. Oh, i heard only one ping and exploded. Oh, all ur tracers missed me but i took hits. Oh! oh! oh!
Oh God i say!
Explain it!! PLEASE!! This things piss me off!
MAN!!! What u see or listen is NOT exatly what happens.
How many times we shoot over an enemy aircraft and make it looks like a cristhmas tree! And the other guy says: i only took one shot and died.
Its not fragile or etc. What u see isnt what really happens. If u lose ur tail and wing, be sure, someone strafed your prettythang. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now please, Hitech, Pyro and gang. Your word is much more important than mine. Can u explain what happens in a online sim to everyone?
Thanks
Pirado
I/JG51
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Pirado
"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland
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Hi Pirado
Relax a bit. Why would my lack of understanding as to how the damage model works in AH "piss you off"? If anybody should be pissed off it should be the guy who just got shot down after hearing his plane only get pinged once. If my plane is getting shot full of holes and I don't hear it due to the way AH has been programmed then I would consider this a major bug and it would need to be addressed.
I don't think anybody here is implying that any of your kills are due to a poor damage model. There is no doubt that you are an excellent pilot and I'm sure all your kills are justified. We are just reporting what we believe to have experienced whether it is correct or not.
Take care!
Nite
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Remember this is beta. Tell them what's wrong, give them time to respond (next release). If it's not fixed THEN let em have it with both barrels. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Where you see the tracers shooting at you is not where the shooter sees them.
This is not a bug but a design consideration that alows us to play on high latency networks.
The same goes for 1 ping deaths what happens is that hits can be delayed being sent to the host. If someone realy nails you when the host gets these hit it calculates that damage ,and if you killed by this damage you are dead before all the hits sounds are played by your front end hence you hear only 1.
HiTech
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While I did find the N1K to be more fragile than the other AH aircraft, I did get several multiple mission kills in it (which is a rarity for me.)
What I like about it is it's ability to out climb (in a steep spiral climb) and out turn even the Spit.
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ok what about times where I mention 1 ping over open chan. and they reply yup I only saw on hit aswell... in one fight the attacker caught me low after killing another guy (no pings, he didnt have a chance) the attacker raced in fired a deflection shot saw one hit sprite and when he got turned around he couldnt find me and asked where I went. I said look at the buffer.. "how you die, was you hurt from before?" "I only saw only one hit you." this was bad as my ENTIRE tail section was removed by a .50 cal round. I dont see a need to turn down the .50s as they work fair against teh other planes it just seems the N1K2 is a touch fragile. Im glad they didnt model the recoil onthe cannons... you'd rip your own wings of firing your own guns.
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Just landed 3 sorties in a row. All 3 sorties I racked up 2 kills without hardly trying. The sortie before that I got trapped by a high spit & a high p51 & went down after
(Seemed right to me) moderate amt of damage.
Takeing the spit with me.
Vert moves, turns, stalls, all feel spot on.
Love the plane & the guns.
Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels