Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: -lazs- on November 27, 2000, 02:39:00 PM
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I see a lot of posts from guys who claim that certain planes can make a 180 degree turn without losing any speed or energy. Some go so far as to say "multiple 180's".
I don't think this is possible. Maybe I'm wrong. Still.... I have allways heard only one side to it. Those who claim that the dastardly deed was done against them (usually causing their unfair demise at the hands of said uber plane).
Is there anyone out there who claims that THEY can do a 180 degree turn in any AH plane and not lose any speed or energy? If so, I would like to go into one of the arenas with them and learn how to do this.
lazs
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Any plane can do a 180 without losing speed...but that speed is gonna be on the verge of stall.
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I did some tests of high-g 180's in some of the most-whined-about planes. I found nothing unusual.
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
Any plane can do a 180 without losing speed...but that speed is gonna be on the verge of stall.
huh?
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ammo, what i mean is that all planes (even bombers) have a certin speed at which they can maintain a 180. although its at the very verge of the plane stalling and rolling over.
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You know, sustained turning speed...
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Had this happen three times in the space of a week. It was the same Chog driver on two occasions and a N1K driver on a different occasion. I havent seen these two online since then, and have never had the problem repeat itself.
Maybe a hack got into the game for a short while.
Dunno.
Yeager
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-lazs-
Any AH plane can make a 180 degree turn without losing airspeed...but you probably didn't really mean to ask the question that way, did you?
I think you probably meant that AH aircraft when flown at max performance parameters will bleed speed in a turn...if so, you are correct.
As my buddy Leon 'Badboy' Smith will discuss in his upcoming article on AH aircraft, most of these planes can sustain a turn of about 3Gs...any more g than that, and they will bleed energy in a level turn.
In RL, we use to refer to a very quick and tight turn as a 'bat turn'...then...as in this sim...no one pulled off a bat turn without giving up a bunch of energy.
Andy
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Anyone ever gone into a tracking position while skydiving, and then extended one of yer arm 90 degrees?
Now *that*s a bat turn.
And you don't lose that much e either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Did some testing of a certain Japanese plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) tonight in the TA.
Initial conditions.. zero altitude (well, maybe 20 feet), 50% fuel, initial airspeed 300mph.
Pull hard into level 360 degree turn, holding 4-5g's constant.
After 180 degrees, airspeed has dropped to 295mph.
After 360 degrees, airspeed has dropped to 260 mph.
Average speed through 360 degree turn - 280mph. Time for 360 degree turn - 16.7 seconds (timed via stopwatch), giving average turn rate of 21.55 degrees/sec and turn radius of 1091 feet.
Now, will this end the complaints about the Nik?
FILM (http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix/images/film15.ahf)
I did some tests of high-g 180's in some of the most-whined-about planes. I found nothing unusual.
Keep testing funked... you'll get it right sooner or later (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix (http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix)
Aces High Training Corps
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 11-28-2000).]
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I'm at work now, so I cant see the film but, definitely, 5mph look like a *huge* E-loss. So, if I merge H2H at 300mph IAS with my trusty C.205 and I extend without any maneuver I'll be safe, right?
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Originally posted by gatt:
I'm at work now, so I cant see the film but, definitely, 5mph look like a *huge* E-loss. So, if I merge H2H at 300mph IAS with my trusty C.205 and I extend without any maneuver I'll be safe, right?
LOL I smell sarcasm here? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Keep testing Jekyll, you'll get it right sooner or later. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You dropped about 350 feet during the 360. Which over a 16.7 second turn is about the same as having an extra 300 hp accelerating the plane!
Doing level turns starting at 300 mph, 50 feet altitude, WEP on, I get 275-285 mph after a 180 in the N1K2-J and 265-275 mph after a 180 in the Fw 190A-5.
Search for Wells' "Energy Retention" thread if you want to see how to do this kind of testing properly. He's got a really good method worked out which is better than doing 180's on the deck.
Also Wells did some calcs to show which planes should do better than others in this kind of thing. Not surprisingly, N1K2-J and Spitfires were on top. I've yet to see a comparison of planes in AH (with each other or with real life experimental data) that didn't make sense in light of Wells' calculations.
<S> Glad to see someone looking at this scientifically instead of with whine-ology. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-28-2000).]
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Very interesting! I dunno squat about tight turns. I'll do some tests this evening. May God help us, 300hp more just for having dropped the nose 300ft ...
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Ok, I wasn't very clear... I thot we all knew the complaint. I am talking about a full or near full, speed merge. Both planes at the same alt and one of em makes a 180 degree reverse without losing any E.
I have heard all the stories of how this was done to this guy or that but... I am only interested in hearing from someone who claims to be able to do it.
lazs
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I too did a test today.
1 nissan 4x4, 1 too many beers.. tried to maintain a sliding 360 degree turn in k-mart parking lot
Conclusion:
my foot wide tires for some reason made the truck resist sliding and insted hopped like a giant red dog having a seazure:
Result: laughter and some old black dude in a station wagon shooting me the finger.
In summery it is determined that my truck is not perked.
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Wobble, LOL.
-lazs-,
I think that's the point, you won't here from anyone able to do that. Most of the time that folks make this claim I believe they either mis-judged the other guy's e state, or there was something else going on.
Funny how all of these claims always come from the guy that dies, and never from the guy that killed him. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"A pig is a jolly companion,
Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale,
Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you,
When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover,
You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!"
-- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Hehe funked.
I knew you'd fall for that (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Which is why I also did THIS (http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix/images/film20.ahf) film (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps
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LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'll check that film out.
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E-bleed is greatest at corner speed. Above or below that speed, e-loss will be less. For arguments sake, say a Spitfire's corner speed is 250 mph. Also, we'll say that 7G's is the most possible, either for structural or blackout limits (even though the blackout limit is a bit lower than that in AH). The induced drag at 350 mph and 7G's is 1/2 that at 250 mph. So, the lower the corner speed, the better the plane will retain E at high speeds. I guess another way to look at that might be to take the ratio of maximum level speed to clean stall speed. A higher ratio should give the plane good e-retention at high speed.
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I ended my 180deg, flat, 5g, turn at 275mph IAS.
Woha Jekyll! What did the pilot smoke to be able to do such things? Thats another proof that is the pilot and not the machine, definitely.
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Also Wells did some calcs to show which planes should do better than others in this kind of thing. Not surprisingly, N1K2-J and Spitfires were on top
WELLS- You see, i told you that it´ll happen ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
funked, Wells calculation was WITHOUT engine power. Add engine power and E-retention of a G10 is better than a Spitfire.
niklas
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Hopefully Andy Bush might drop into this thread.
Maybe he can give us some idea of E bleed in a modern jet in a constant 5g 180 degree turn.
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Wells, how does one go about calculating corner speed for a WW2 aircraft?
I don't mean just by testing flight performance, and picking the lowest speed where max G can be sustained. Is there any mathematical formulae for calculating corner speed?
Reason I ask is this. Considering that both WB and AH come from the same game designer, its surprising the difference in CV between both games. In WB for example, CV for the F4U is around 300mph. I would guess it is considerably less in Aces High.
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps
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Jekyll
Glad to help! Here's a F-16 maneuvering diagram that I've annotated. Note the somewhat 'flat' Ps=0 line at the 7.3 G area.
Anywhere below that line is a positive energy area. I added an approximate 5G line for emphasis. It is clear that the F-16 will gain energy in a 5G turn under these conditions.
(http://www.doitnow.com/~alfakilo/GG.jpg)
Oops!! Sorry about that first picture...I goofed!
Andy
[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 11-29-2000).]
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Niklas, you're right, sorry.
Jekyll, it looked like about 270 mph after a 180? That's consistent with what Gatt and I were getting. Looks like you were doing a better job of holding the g constant than I was, too. Good flying.
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PS, corner speed in AH and WB is determined by blackout. AH has a lower blackout threshold, so it will have a lower corner speed even if aircraft performance is identical to WB.
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Funked, Wells and Andy,
are these results consistent with the real thing? Take the real pilon races, for example, at what speed do they usual enter the 180° turn and what speed do they have after it?
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Toc-toc ... earth calls FM gurus ....
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PS, corner speed in AH and WB is determined by blackout. AH has a lower blackout threshold, so it will have a lower corner speed even if aircraft performance is identical to WB.
Err funked.. you wanna consider this again? IIRC corner speed is the lowest airspeed at which an aircraft can achieve max G, and thereby achieve max turn rate.
SO, are you saying that AH aircraft achieve max turn rate at a lower airspeed than an identical WB aircraft?
And if so, which FM is right?
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Aces High Training Corps
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Jekyll, see how the F-16 turns best at 7.3G?
Well for a WW2 fighter that number will be much lower - but in AH you're probably asleep due to the fact HTC simulated the virtual pilot's G tolerance as that of an overweight 30yr-old flight simmer! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Query:
Although it would not be a "true" corner speed measurment you can see where the plane attains it's maximum G and which speeds it does it in. Go to 10K and do a gentle dive until your above corner speed. Start film then bank 90 degrees and pull back hard. When the blackout ends stop the film and review. The best I have done is around 8G in an La5, it becomes very clear however at what speed you attain corner- BTW most planes have G failure around 7-9G so listen carefully for wings creaking in the blackout.
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Corner speed can be calculated easily if you know the stall speed and G limit
CV = sqrt(g limit) * stall speed
If g limit is 7 and stall speed is 100 mph, corner speed would be 265 mph.
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I have seen the 180 without loss turn 2 times in the ta. 3 times in the h2h arena.
Please dont jump down my throat im going to say something many wont like to hear.
There currently is some sort of hack going on.
Ive flow 5 yrs + flight siming. i have never seen anyone who could reverse to a ho in under d 1.3.
This happened to me in h2h play by a corsair.
I wasin a la5.
Theabove discussion was very good.
Its just that some have the talent to improve their fm.
You need to not forget this point.
EYE
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Wells, is the 'g limit' in your formula the structural g limit of the aircraft (where it starts falling apart), or the G limit where the pilot goes into blackout?
Juzz .. my point was whether AH aircraft have a higher turn rate than their WB cousins at the same airspeed. What are the implications of that?
Blackout limits don't come into it.
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Wells- is that figure using power on or power off stall speed?