Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: leonid on November 02, 1999, 02:56:00 AM
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gatt, do you realize that if HTC are on schedule the next two planes out will be NATEDOG's Fw 190A-8, and SUPERFLY's MC.205?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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And I vote for Dora after we get those two (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 “Mölders” (http://www.angelfire.com/ut/jg51/jg51.html)
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Hristo, Dora next? Nyet, tovarish! That's three LW planes.
No, my friend, no Dora. Next plane should be LA-7 or Yak-9U or Yak-3. Give me a LA-7 or Yak-9U, or even a Yak-3, and those G-10 days of glory will be memories (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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Nope. Something different would be nice. Perhaps a Mosquito or Beaufighter?
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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<sits down and grabs the popcorn>
ohhh this is gonna get interesting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
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Got to be the ubiquitous P-40...pass the popcorn (next round's on me) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail
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Want something different? Brewster Buffalo Model-239. Not too many sims, leave alone online sims, have been able to include it due to its upsetting nature on game balance.
//fats
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Even if some sowjet planes would be nice, I think we should have the P38 or P47 before.
Don't think I want them really but they did most service over Germany back then and were the counterparts to 109s and 190s.
Please before you model the 190-D, model the Ta 152-H0 or H1 (67 came into service winter 1944). Then we can prove the real worth of German aircraft developement. (Remember it was delayed due to heavvy bombing of german aircraft manufacturing sites, else it would have seen service mid 1944)
Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"
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F8F Bearcat for fun.
F4U-4 With cannons.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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Following the FW190 and MC.205 the next plane modeled should either be a British or Russian bomber - or an American NAVY fighter.
Since the bombers take more time and effort to model, I suggest the F4U Corsair be modeled next. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Following that I think HTC SHOULD model a bomber - preferably a late war British model.
Beyond that for diversity, maybe a German twin engined fighter/bomber, then an early war American fighter such as the P-40, then possibly a Russian heavy fighter/bomber.
All I desire is that the planeset remain agressively diverse, and that each country be represented fairly equally. I'd also like for HTC to model as many airplanes as they can that DON'T already exist in WarBirds (aside from the definative planes - P-40, P-38, Zero, etc). Pyro mentioned modeling a particular twin engined LW aircraft, and I know the F4U is on the way anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
How about a Japanese 'Judy' - the Russian WWII-era Mig?
(http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/gifs/new/kep.gif)
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~Lt. Jg. Windle~
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) The Jolly Rogers 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
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Yeah, a/c not in WB. That means we should get the F4u-1A with the -1C as an optional wing/load out.;-)
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Ta 152H, right ? CC, it would be great to have 190's revenge, after A8 gets slaughtered by Mustangs in the new version.
But Werewolf, can't you see that when I mention even a Dora, they pop up with Bearcats and such. If I came with Ta 152, they would jump me with F-86 or even F-4 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Ok, maybe just some new Corsairs being shipped to the frontlines just as the war ended. Buffers would come up with B-29 etc.
Or is it just "Be realistic, ask for something you can't get" ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes, I admire Ta 152 ever since I was a kid, just as most US players admire P 51 or P 38.
Of course Ta-152 would be awesome. Only sim which has it is MS CFS (some add-on). Too bad the FM is not up to the AH level.
But I don't think we will ever see it here. Hey, we don't even have self detonation on WGr, am I right ?
Pro Ta-152, in my opinion:
- Germans had several new designs which saw combat, more or less (Ta-152, Do 335, Me 163, He 162); At least one of those should be modeled at some point
- It saw combat, even its designer met Mustangs while flying it
- It has beauty and charisma. It came too little, too late, and fought against the odds, when all was lost; Something essential to make a legend (sorry, I went too far now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Contra Ta 152:
- It never served in numbers
- Data is pretty hard to find
- It might be too dominant in the arena, too many would fly it
- It would be a streak machine, way better than P 51D is now
- It could not be flown the way it was flown historically, against 5:1 odds and vulchers all around
Disclaimer: These are only my opinions.
P.S.
Dora would do just fine for now.
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 “Mölders” (http://www.angelfire.com/ut/jg51/jg51.html)
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Well at last it really saw service and scored quite some kills. But you are right, introducing it to AH will rise many voices begging for planes that NEVER reached the frontlines in European theater.
Regarding The 190-D I have to say it saw combat in big numbers. Mostly serving as "Hoehenstaffel" to protect the FW 190A-8.
(Service 1944)
Some other suggestions from my side
AR 234 "Blitz" (Service September 44)
Heinkel He 219 (with "Schräge Musik" the
A7/R1 had 6MK 108, 2 MG 151/20 and it has been put into service November 1943)
And not to forget all planes that saw service at all sides before WW2.
Lets have a Spanish Civil War time with Legion Condor!
Werewo
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You can't have the Arado Ar234 "Blitz" (fun as it would be) - it would be virtually invulnerable to interception!
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Juzz,
thats exactly the point i want to have it for. Bombing the allied bases to ashes.
Werewo
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[back in town ...]
Leonid,
yes I red the PYRO news and actually I'm crossing my fingers about the C.205. This baby could reach 400mph at 20,000ft and climb there in 5'30" (combat load) .... and dont forget the 2x12,7mm and 2x20mm MG151-20.
Not bad for an early '43 a/c ...
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Gatt
4°Stormo CT
In the afternoon we again did this (strafing) and what I have dreamt of happened. A single CR42 took off and climbed up to engage me. We had a dogfight below the clouds and immediately over the aerodrome. It lasted a long time, about ten minutes. He was very good and much above the average italian. We believe he was a famous italian ace who had a crack squadron of CR42's. I'm very glad to say that he managed to bail out successfully when I finally finished him off."
2/Lt Talbot
274 Hurricane Sqn
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I strongly think the next plane should be a medium bomber. We have the heavy bomber but far too many fighters around right now. My vote is for the Mosquito, failing that I would love any German bombers.
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If your in range, so is the enemy.
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OK, if we're going to get really silly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I vote for the german Sanger.
Never heard of it???? Well it was a prototype german sub-orbital bomber, operating altitude of approximately 100,000 feet, with liquid hydrogen/oxygen as fuel and oxidant. Top speed approximately 25,000 mph and a range of over 20,000 miles. Of course, it only ever reached the wind-tunnel stage of development, but it saw just as much combat in WW2 as the F8F Bearcat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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ANNOUNCER: And Jekyll adeptly parries the "I want a BearCat aguement"
<crowd breaks into a polite golf clap>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
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How about a Hawker Tempest MK5 or a Ki-84?
Mino
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Werewolf I agree with your above post - as long as you realize the F4U-4 Corsair reached the frontlines half a year before the war was over.
(http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/gifs/new/kep.gif)
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~Lt. Jg. Windle~
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) The Jolly Rogers 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
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Windle:
It wasn't the cannon equiped F4U-4 ( forgot the letter thingy, was it -4B? )... Ruy did quite nice job at proving that those didn't see combat in any numbers, he had access to sources for some book writer or something like that, not by far near as much as a Ta 152H for example. If you compare % of number of operational planes/total number of operational planes in respective air forces at the time.
//fats
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Fats, I watched that whole debate over in Warbirds about the F4U-4B and its use in combat, and I don't know who to believe.
Each side had "DEFINITIVE" proof (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and it seemed to just go to a stalemate.
Personally, I don't mind the -4B, and believe it saw combat, and didn't think it was much of an terror uber plane in WB's. At least the sources I own definitely state that and give squadron numbers, and no it doesn't say -1C. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So I dont' mind its inclusion in a planset, or that matter for the mixed MG/Cannon armed Hellcat (nightfighter version).
Of course I also don't mind the Ta152H, and have always wanted to see what it could do in a Sim. I dont' think that a person can argue it never saw combat when the plane at the Garber facility they are currently restoring, had repaired damaged to its tail assembly, believed to be combat related.
Its when you get to planes that everyone can agree didn't make combat that it starts to bother me, for instance the BearCat, TigerCat, or the Hawker Sea Fury. All are excellent planes and would make for a really interesting "What If, 1946 Arena", but for a main arena would be somewhat out of place.
All just my humble opinons, feel free to disagree or even agree if you are feeling kind today.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/emote/Snoopy.gif)
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Hmmm.. some want a bomber, some a fighter...
Pick the P47.. its both. <G>
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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs
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Affirmative on the F4U-4 seeing substantial combat but not the F4U-4B. Anyone can write a book - not everyone prints the facts. I was under the impression that as many as 200 F4U-4B's had entered the Pacific Theater before VJ day. After exhaustive research I haven't found any evidence of this. I've gone so far as to order the microfilm reel of F4U-4B history cards from the Navy Historical Center to confirm their dates of inception. In 12 months when I actually get the reels I'll let ya know. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If a cannon armed Corsair is to be added to the planeset it has to be the F4U-1C. There were only a couple hundered of them produced but ALL of them saw combat toward the end of the Pacific conflict. One Marine pilot even landed a 4 kill sortie in one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I say roll with the F4U-1C and also the Ta-152 whatever it's worth. The Ta-152's strength was at high altitude and I rarely go up there anyway. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I stand behind the idea of 'if it saw combat during WWII then it should be modeled' - period.
....of course if only 10 were produced and only 5 of those saw combat then it should be the LAST plane to be modeled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) When it comes to modeling the rarest combat planes they should be left until last. It would be rediculous to see a sky full of Ta-152's or F4U-1C's and not a single FW-190D or F4U-1A in flight.
Don't count anything out, just be wise about when its time to count it in.
(http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/gifs/new/kep.gif)
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~Lt. Jg. Windle~
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) The Jolly Rogers 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
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Il2 Sturmovik (sp? Leonid?)
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The F4U-4 did see plenty of combat mostly ground attack but its still combat. I personally like all planes built during WWII weather they saw combat or not. The intor to the game said vintage WWII not WWII combat airplanes. If it few and it has info on it put it in the game. The F4U-4B was only the british version of the F4U-4 not any real difference, mainly shorter wings.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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I like Keir's idea of the Sturmovik. We need to have something a little different for the next plane, and the IL-2 would certainly be different.
I can just imagine all those VVS pilots braving the ack to knock down fields (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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-kier- & Jekyll,
I dunno about the Il-2 just yet. It was mainly a ground attack vehicle. Yes, that would include airfields too, but the present state of ack would make it a very tough venture for the Sturmovik, if not suicide, since the Il-2 was relatively slow.
For my own satisfaction I'd like to see a few things happen before the Il-2 is introduced:
1. A radar 'dead' zone from ground level to 100m.
2. Reduced icons for aircraft flying at 100m or below. This also goes for dots. I think the current black dot is too obvious.
3. Ack that is less deadly. Also, maybe, introduce a server timer for airfield ack such that upon arrival of enemy aircraft all ack is delayed for so many minutes (5?), then once the last enemy aircraft departs the airfield ack delay timer is reset until the next arrival of enemy aircraft.
4. The air-to-ground rocket model needs to be refined.
Of course, I'm almost certain that these issues will be addressed by HTC. It's just a matter of time really. In fact, with the exception of an ack delayer, most of these issues were satisfactorily dealt with in the WB engine, so I'm quite confidant about them being resolved in a similar fashion.
I think right now the goal at HTC is to get the flight, gunnery and ground model down pat, then move on to the next agenda at hand.
Pushing the Il-2 out at this point might make it a frustrating experience. Unless, they suddenly change field capture to ground vehicles ...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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I've been a proponent of an ack delay for a long time now. Historically, low level attacks on airfields were a viable proposition, the idea being to scream in at low level before the enemy ack gunners could get to their posts or react.
But I don;t think we need a 5 minute delay. A 30 second to 1 minute delay should be ample. Airfield ack is by default in a 'non-alert' state, and 1 minute after the first enemy aircraft enters its firing envelope, it goes active. It remains active until, say, 15 or 30 minutes after the last fighter leaves the envelope, and returns to its dormant state.
It would make low-level 'rhubarb' type attacks a possibility, and if we ever get aircraft stored in hangers or revetments rather than spawning on the runway .... well, can you say 'Operation Bodenplatte' ???
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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Actually I think the Sturmovik fits in as well as B17's do right now. I agree with your list of needs (for the most part) but why not go ahead and model the plane? Tactics will have to be developed anyway, regardless of target. What's more, people are attacking airfields in planes ill-equipped to do so... would the Il2 be any worse?
Finally, wouldn't they be new targets for fighters? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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If we're going to have a bomber, let's have the best late-war bomber to go with the current late-war fighters. It's going to be very difficult to get to the target with all these super fighters. To do the job, we need something that is fast and very heavily armed.
The A-26B/C Invader is the choice.
Both versions had the following in common:
- Top speed from 355 to 370 mph.
- Power provided by a pair of Pratt & Whitney R2800's with 2350 hp using water injection. At a loaded weight of 26,000 lb, this gives a power loading of 5.53 lb/hp, which is better than some famous fighters I can think of.
- Up to 4,000 lb internal bomb load, plus on the wings either 2,000 lb of bombs, 8 HVAR rockets, or 4 gun pods with 2 x .50 cal guns in each pod.
- Defensive armament was 2 x .50 cal in dorsal turret, 2 x .50 cal in ventral turret.
Solid-nose version (A-26B-50-DL and later) added 8 forward-firing .50 cal in the nose plus 3 forward-firing guns in each wing. This is in addition to the armament described above.
Glass-nose version (A-26C-45-DT and later) added two fixed .50 cal guns in the nose, 3 forward-firing guns in each wing, and a bomb sight for high-level bombing.
Either version is a monster:
8 x 500 lb internal bomb load, between 8 and 14 .50 cal guns for strafing, plus 8 rockets or 4 x 500 lb bombs on the wings. And once you fire all those weapons, the aircraft has very good speed and amazing climb and acceleration for a bomber.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-04-1999).]
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Indian,
The British Corsair you're thinking of is the F4U-1B. It was basically the F4U-1 'birdcage' Corsair used by the British. On initial delivery these Corsairs didn't have the clipped wing tips. The Corsair II's were the first to come with that modification from the factory. The F4U-1B (or Corsair I) was later retrofitted with the clipped wing tips.
The F4U-4B on the other hand never saw service with the British. It was the 4x20mm cannon armed version of the F4U-4 Corsair. It's primary role in combat came about during the Korean War. My great uncle flew them with VMF-312 flying land based air support strikes. The cannons AND extra performance would be great for AH, but again I haven't found any hard evidence that proves the F4U-4B arrived in the Pacific before WWII's end.
(http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/gifs/new/kep.gif)
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~Lt. Jg. Windle~
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) The Jolly Rogers 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
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Il-2 was probably the first close air support aircraft ever designed for this purpose alone.
Tank busting etc came later - the idea was to provide low level constant support for attacking infantry. Not hit'n'run tactics used by P51s/P47s/Typhoons - Shturmoviks were heavily armoured which allowed them to hover over trenches ignoring small caliber AA fire. In a sense it was a grandaddy of an A10. Survivability was also legendary...
What they didn't normally face was the kind of AA implacements we have - 50 cals and bigger aiming right between the pilot's eyes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)) It might not do as well as some people hope it would in AH/WB environment unless:
(To continue on leonid's ack delay thingy)
- there's ack coming up delay(need to get timing right though);
- the troopers have to run to man their stations;
- AND there's an ability to strafe the bastards while they're running - delaying those acks coming up until 2-3 reach it;
- THEN get IL2s in cuz they'll be just perfect for strafing troops/buildings without heavy ack messing up the picture (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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-lynx-
I still think the A-26 will be a lot more survivable than the Il-2 due to the performance. Also it is far more heavily armed.
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funked
I'm not against A26 at all (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But if it's a med bomber we're after A20 Boston should be high up on that list - used by Allies on all fronts, including Russia...
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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MB5!!!!
Just on looks alone!
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Lynx - I agree about the A-20, but I think the A-26 (a late-war uberbomber) is more fitting considering the late-war uberfighters we have. They're all 1944 aircraft, and the A-26 is a 1944 bomber.
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Windle
Check this out if you can F4u-4b's while assigned to USS Sitkoh Bay (CVE-86) Flew inot combat on April 7 1945. They were of MAG-31. This is only one instance where they went into combat, which I realy dont carfe if they saw combat or not they are vintage WWII eraby being made in that time line. Remember this is a game of skill and not of reenacting history. If we were to reenact history the F4U's would have to be beefed up to maintian a 13:1 kill ratio. I like WWII airplanes all of them weather they saw combat or not, hardware dont make up much in the skill department.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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Will do Indian (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'd love to find out that the F4U-4B DID in fact see some fighting during WWII, even if it was only ground attack. The fact that it took part at all would make a world of difference.
BTW where did you come across that information? Right now I'll be waiting a year for my history card reels before I can confirm anything (Navy Historical Center has maybe 2 employees). If you have another source I can check it might help me out alot.
(http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/gifs/new/kep.gif)
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~Lt. Jg. Windle~
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) The Jolly Rogers 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
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--- Indian: ---
. If we were to reenact history the F4U's would have to be beefed up to maintian a 13:1 kill ratio.
--- end ---
That's an argument you didn't wanna play. Brewster Buffaloes and 109s piloted by finnish pilots should then also be fudged to make them match their historical k/d. Boy it's gonna be easy for us finns to get on the top 10 in K/D...
In other words your argument makes a little sense. The arena is not WWII aircombat with WWII aircraft, it's aircombat with WWII like aircraft.
//fats
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... and never the twain shall meet.
Just goes to show that WWII flight simmers are basically two groups: Open Arena and Historical Arena.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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If we were to reenact history the F4U's would have to be beefed up to maintian a 13:1 kill ratio
Hehe, keep the arena full of skilled Imperial Japanese pilots with N1K2-J and other late war fighters and see how your k/d ratio falls down .....
Regards,
Gatt
4th Stormo CT
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 11-08-1999).]
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Windle turns out the Corsairs may have been from CVE-32 not CVE-86 looking into this. The combat was taking out a Japanese bomber. The bomber crashed about 100yrds from USS Sitkoh Bay (CVE-86). Info from just diggin aorund started with a small book on corsairs.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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Indian & Windle: I have read that after-action report too. It says 5 F4u-B went after a Kamikaze bomber and riddled it with 20mm cannon fire before a wing failed and it crashed. I believe it was near Okinawa.The book with this information is the F4u book by what's-his-name that starts with a "V."(Windle knows who I am talking about.)
Problem: another source lists all units and what F4u's they were equipped with, at 2 different dates. The second date is the same as the date as when the above action took place. They list the exact same unit as having all F4u-1C's, not F4u-4B's.
Another reference states that the 200 F4u-1C did not see combat action until Okinawa, 1945 which would place it in the above scenario too. Personally, I thought I read somewhere else that the -1C saw action earlier than that but don't remember where.
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Gatt,
The Nk and Ki.84 (prolly the best late war Jap fighters) didnt even have a max speed over 400 mph and POOR high alt performance, plus they suffered from unreliable engines.
Although Japanese Nk pilots regarded the hellcat as 'east meat' the F4U was by far superior because of its high altitude performance and top speed of 417 mph.
As one japanese pilot said: "The P-38 pilots, flying at great heights, chose when and where they wanted to fight... with disastrous results for our men."
P.S. Model the B29 and those Nikis won't come close.
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"Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air, trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow--and I was a long way ahead of him by now--when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climn, the British ship had the advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it--for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slow-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit."
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Nath-BDP sayeth:
Although Japanese Nk pilots regarded the hellcat as 'east meat' the F4U was by far superior because of its high altitude performance and top speed of 417 mph.
As one japanese pilot said: "The P-38 pilots, flying at great heights, chose when and where they wanted to fight... with disastrous results for our men."
This assumes that everyone will play historically, in historical match-ups, at historic alts. The IJN guys are doing just fine in the N1K2 so far... and they will chew up the Corsairs just like they are chewing up P51's... Give them a Ki-84 that can catch your Corsair at medium/low alts, and you will see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, I have seen data that suggests the Ki-84 flew 426mph at alt, faster than the P51 and Thunderbolt at the same alt. I'll see if I can find it, it's from the "Profile Series" if someone else can find a copy...
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Nakajima Ki.84 Hayate;
Wing loading 35lb/sq ft
Maximum level speed 'clean' 388 mph at 20k declining to 236 mph at 13k.
Service ceiling 34,450 ft.
Vought F4U-1 Corsair;
Wing loading 40lb/sq ft
Maximum level speed 'clean' 446 mph @ 26,200 ft, declining to 381 mph @ sea level.
Service cieling 41,500 ft.
As you can see, the hayate was essentially a Zero with more speed. And at this time you have to remember that the P47N Thunderbolt was starting to see service in the pac, which was basicaly a P47M(the one that was specifically designed to shoot down V-1s) designed for longer range to escort the B29s.
This puppy had a top speed of 460 mph at 27k and 397 at 10k and a hella nice zoom climb. Now I'm not saying the Ki.84 was bad or anything, but Japanese powerplants were usually unreliable which impacted performance at high altitudes.
"Unfortunately the Shinden's flight characteristics were treacherous and demanded an experienced pilot."
Saburo Sakai
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Man, I don't know what you source is, or if you made a typo, but...
No way speed dropped that much at 13K! Even the zero is faster than that. All your points on reliability are well-taken, except this sim won't model that. The corsair is faster, no doubt. But you forget that the Ki84 was much more than a "bigger zero"; it had armour, guns, and a speed that put it on par with Allied a/c. Take out the reliability factor and dash in the nature of our arena (furball) and I would put the money on the Frank most of the time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW, the Shinden was a canard! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Nath-BDP,
where the heck are you getting your data?
The Ki-84-Ia got 392mph at 20,080ft. Moreover, Francillon reports a test made in 1946 at the Middletown Air Depot on a restored late model Ki-84. Well, at combat operations weight, the a/c reached 427mph at 20,000ft using WEP. 3mph and 22mph faster than respectively the P-51D-25 and P-47D-35.
Anyway, we are not in RL but in online arenas, so give us Hayates and we'll chew up the big ugly blue bird .. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (like in WB)
Regards,
Gatt
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Also that 381 mph S/L speed for the F4U-1 is bizarre.
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Found my source.
This is from Aero Publishers, Inc:
In this evaluation program, the Frank was comparable to the P-51 Mustang and P-47 Thunderbolt. Although the P-51H and P-47N had a slightly higher top speed, the Frank climbed to altitude faster. The Frank was more maneuverable in turns and will turn inside either the P-51H or P-47N. The control forces were also lighter than those of most American aircraft.
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What I MEANT to type for the Hayates top speed at 13k was 362 mph, I didnt have time to proof read.
I have 2 sources that says the Hayate's top speed was 388 mph at 21k.(Air international Volume 10 Number 1 Jan 1976 and Wings Midway to Hiroshima)
I'm not saying the Ki-84 wasnt comparable to the P51 or P47 in terms of performance, the Hayate is actually one of my favorite fighters of WW 2.
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What I MEANT to type for the Hayates top speed at 13k was 362 mph, I didnt have time to proof read.
I have 2 sources that says the Hayate's top speed was 388 mph at 21k.(Air international Volume 10 Number 1 Jan 1976 and Wings Midway to Hiroshima)
I'm not saying the Ki-84 wasnt comparable to the P51 or P47 in terms of performance, the Hayate is actually one of my favorite fighters of WW 2.
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You people are incredible !
Thread started with MC.205, and went all the way from Dora, Bearcat, Ta 152, Il-2 to those F4Us and Ki-84s. And I never noticed how you did it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Anyway, after the full circle, we get back to Dora (MC.205 is on its way already anyway).
Pacific planes should be proportional to the sea area we have now in AH terrain - kidding, sorry (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-09-1999).]
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Sorry Hristo, but that arguement don't buy it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The Ki-84 was a Japanese Army Aircraft, ie airforce. And the N1K2 was the land based aircraft of the IJN. Neither were Carrier based.
So if the Dora flew near the North Sea, or the Med. for that matter, it doesn't count either ? hehehe Now that does mean we can get rid of the Bearcat and the F4U topic tho <G>.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Just kidding, Hristo
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Dora this, Dora that, give us a spit XIV or Tempest V, bye dora ;D
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The 56th had P47M's in combat in 1945. I'd love one of those to go snacking on Dora's with.
--Westy
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Verm the F4U was land based by the US untill 44 late if I remember right. And sence I know HT like the plane we will get it anyway. Now we need a P38.
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
My Homepage
Where you can find the Key Commands in files for Word6 Wordpad and text mode.
indians Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.
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I think Hristo is on to something here. Given the fact that all strategic and tactical combat occurs over the almost entirely land-based arena in AH, I submit that Soviet, German and Italian aircraft be given the HIGHEST priority for present, expanding planeset. My reasoning is simple: Russian front of WWII, the largest land war in HISTORY!!!
Okay, okay, just the ramblings of a VVS driver.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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I know Indian (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) the F4U and the P-38 are my two favorite US rides.
It was simply a "jab" (jokingly of course) towards the F4U posts.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Westy, JG301 had Ta 152H-1's in combat in 1945. Don't go snackin' on D-9's lest ye be snacked. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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OK, seems we have different viewpoints here, Verm.
What I want to point out is that, at this stage, AH is just like WB main arena:
109s escorting B-17s, while being attacked by La-5 or Niki, P-51 used as field defense fighters, JGs fighting other JGs, gang bangs consisting of all types available in AH etc etc. Now add in some more Pacific planes and we got Quake style matchups (yes, it seems so, IMHO).
I am really not interested in how 109 fares against Niki or 190. Just like P-51 vs F4U would remind me of what if Superman vs Hulk match.
But I am surely interested in 190/P-51 or 109/Spit matchups.
And why Dora ? Somehow I don't believe that we need F4U to fight P-51D. Dora is Mustangs's historical opponent. I am not asking it for myself (I fly 109), but because I think it is a better match for P-51D than a8 is (which will be slaughtered by P-51D, IMHO).
That's why I have doubts about Ta 152H. I like that plane. But I am against of bringing it in AH, because it would never be used historically. But if you all like this non-historical thing we have now, then scrap my Dora vote - I want me a Ta 152.
And Nath BDP, so you say that you will fly Tempest or Spit XIV against the Dora ? And all this as an JG member ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes, you got it. I can't wait until I see AH historical arena. No more Rook/Bishop/Knight icons, just plane type and distance.
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-09-1999).]
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Agree totally on that Hristo. (Ta 152 was a personal interest in order to see how competitive it is with my personal flight style)
Werewo
JG 301 "Heimatverteidigung"
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hristo: "Yes, you got it. I can't wait until I see AH historical arena. No more Rook/Bishop/Knight icons, just plane type and distance"
Yep, lets have it... As well as Force Feedback and smaller font for damn icons since we have to have them.
Thinking about it: the other day I went into (I think) Bishops (by mistake - I swear (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))to find that from their point of view we are Reds!!! (shock horror). So, I gather that all countries see friendlies as greens and all enemies (irrespective of country) are painted red.
Why, in this case, do we need rooks/bishops/whoevers icons at all? Callsign/distance in green for your compatriots and plane type/distance for all others. Who cares whether your target is a bishop or some other bizarre horsey thing? We, good honest rooks, will kill them all anyway, right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Pyro - please consider dropping country icons altogether and please reduce the icon font - it'll help with clatter in the skies and (hopefully) we will fit in those pretty clouds of yours - otherwise the icon will stick out...
I'm probably posting this in a wrong place... Duh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 11-09-1999).]
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Got my vote Hristo.
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129 IAP VVS RKKA
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I like the idea to do planes other sims haven't yet. Considering this in detail, the airplanes remaining are mainly:
Gloster Gladiator
Fiat CR42
Polikarpov I-16
PZL-P11
Boomerang.
I see yet amazing T&B fight between Westland Lysander escorting a Fairey Swordfish Vs. Fieseler Storch! :-)
Luigi "Falco" Pacetti
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I vote for the IL-2 and A-26.
For a Japanese fighter, How about a Ki-44? I haven't ever seen that plane modeled, and based upon what I have read, it was a pretty good E-Fighter (Rare, since most Japanese fighters were angles fighters as you guys know). The only thing I would wonder is would it have the automatic maneuvering flaps? I also believe the George had the automatic maneuvering flaps, however, these obviously aren't modeled. I believe they were operated by a `U-Tube' Manometer based on the G's the plane was pulling, but I haven't investigated that feature in awhile.
If you are going to model the more esoteric aircraft (Dornier Arrow, MB5, Tigercat(Too late)) Then I would like to see what was reportedly an excellent twin engine Japanese fighter (Based on U.S. Flight reports here in the states after hostilites ended). That plane is the Ki-83. I have alot of info on that plane. Unfortunately, it is in Japanese, and I can't read Japanese! Would be happy to photocopy it for the HT guys if they would be interested. I believe this booklet was published by the same publishing group which put out Koku-Fan. It is:
Famous Airplanes of the World No. 24 (1990)
(Japanese) Army Experimental Fighters.
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109F-4 !?!
Some german dogfighting power, eh ?
Also PE-2 would be nice add with Brewster Buffalo, ugliest plane on earth! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pe-2 for bomber, Tiffie, LaGG (yuck!) or Ki-61-IB (cannon armed variant or .50 cal - i don't care)
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Thought I might resurrect this old thread.... It makes good reading, especially now that 1.06 is out! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BB