Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Nath-BDP on November 10, 1999, 09:42:00 AM
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Aka F7F 'Tigercat',
Perhaps one of the best twin engine fighters of the war, the F7F was the first carrierborne twin engined warplane to see service in the US Navy, a massive armarment of 4 20mm Hispano M2s in the wing leading edges and four 12.7 mm Browning M2s in the nose and performance even with, if not superior to the P-38. Also able to carry up to 4,000 of disposable stores(same as P38) and a range of 1,900 miles with DT and 1,200 with internal fuel. The Tigercat had excellent handling characteristics and very good manueverablity for a twin engined fighter but wasn't successfull as a carrierborne fighter and was removed for operation with the U.S. Marines and as a night-fighter.
Now for the numbers:
Max speed; 450 mph at 21,500 feet declining to 367 mph at sea level.
Climb; 6,040 feet per min at sea level.
Service ceiling 40,700 ft.
F7F is a good alternative to the P38 which we've already seen in most WW 2 Flight sims, and perhaps will be considered as the next U.S. a/c in AH.
Thanks,
Nath29
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"Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air, trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow--and I was a long way ahead of him by now--when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climn, the British ship had the advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it--for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slow-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit."
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Well, here comes the deluge...but...the thing never saw combat.
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Spinny, VF-17
8X
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It was still delivered to operational US Marine Corp. Squads (VMF-911 and VMF(n)-531) in the summer of '44.
P.S. sick of the P38 ;O
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"Mölders made me what I am today." - Helmut Wick, JG 2, 56 kills.
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I'll bet a buck those squads were still based on the US mainland too. If the Tigercat was operating in squad strength a year before the war ended it definately would have been a part of Task Force 58 during 1945 when the Navy assembled all they had available for the final move on the Japanese mainland. Hell, the F4U-4 even made it to the combat area by April of 1945 and the first production model didn't clear the factory floor until October 31, 1944! Where the hell were all these active mid-1944 Tigercat squadrons during this time? Again, if they existed at all, my bet is that they were stateside testing units.
Also, can someone prove to me that VMF(N)-531 existed prior to the end of WWII? I always thought of it primarily as a Korean War squadron.
(http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/gifs/new/kep.gif)
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~Lt. Jg. Windle~
VF-17 (http://chani.arrakis-ttm.com/warbirds/jollyroger/) The Jolly Rogers 8X
Skychrgr@aol.com
[This message has been edited by Windle (edited 11-10-1999).]
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They we're both based in Okinawa and the tigercat reached those squads a day before the war ended, the F7F also never saw carrierborne operations and then only little after the war's end even though it was designed for such duties.
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"Mölders made me what I am today." - Helmut Wick, JG 2, 56 kills.
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Ahhhh Nath, but can you prove they flew any combat sorties in that one day? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If so you might just have your case on a technicality (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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No, I know that they never flew any combat sorties, as I agreed with the guy above, but they did reach squads.
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Well if "delivered to operational squadrons" is all that is required, look out for the Fw 190D-12, Ta 152, Ar 234, Me 262, Me 163, and the He 162. The He 162 in particular would absolutely rule the arena.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-10-1999).]
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As I said, its just something to think about besides the P38...
And by the way do you realize the Ta 152 would suck at low alts, where most fights take place? Better like running.
Lol, I could just picture it, a Ta 152 with a 42 foot wingspan and 52lb/sq ft wing loading trying to TnB, nice, fat, target. Btw, Ta 152 doesn't climb any better than the A series, all it has is speed and high alt performance. :0
Now if AH was an actual reinactment of WW 2(which it should be), bring all those on.
P.S. I realize there were variants with shorter wings to improve low and medium alt performance, but the H-1 and HO (long winged versions) is the only one that saw service, the difference between them, the H-1 having an enlarged fuel capacity. Im all for the Ta 152 but I think other planes should get priority first, especially when this isn't a historical reinactment of WW 2 European aerial combat.
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"Mölders made me what I am today." - Helmut Wick, JG 2, 56 kills.
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I don't think any of these planes should be a priority. We need planes that fought in the war, and in significant numbers.
BTW I have 10,472 normal loaded and 250.8 sq. ft for the Ta 152H-1.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-10-1999).]
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Aircraft Monograph Fw 190D Ta 152:
Fw 190D-9
Wing Area: 18.30 m**3
Max. TO: 4270 kg
Speed ( sea level ): 580 km/h with MW 50
ROC ( sea level ): 16.0 m/s
Time to Alt: 17.7 s/10000 m
Service Ceiling: 11100 m
Take off Run: 440 m
Ta 152H-0
Wing Area: 19.5 m**3
Max. TO: 4727 kg
Speed ( sea level ): - km/h
ROC ( sea level ): - m/s
Time to Alt: -/-
Service Ceiling: - m
Take off Run: - m
Ta 152H-1
Wing Area: 23.5 m**3
Max. TO: 5217 kg
Speed ( sea level ): 536 km/h
ROC ( sea level ): 14.2 m/s, 17.5 m/s with MW 50
Time to Alt: 13.3 s/10000 m, 11.7 s/10000 with MW 50
Service Ceiling: 13500 m, 14800 m with GM 1
Take off Run: 600 m, 265 m with MW 50
The book doesn't list a lot of values for the H-0. Most interesting are the H-1 figures with out and with MW 50 and the GM 1 ceiling. MW 50 cuts the take off run in less than half and the cervice ceiling is 48500 ft with GM 1! Now that's high?
//fats
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Thought I'd post some conversion figures cause some of you yanks prolly aren't using metric system _yet_?
1 mile = 1609,344 meters
1 meter = 3.280834... feet
1 kilogram = 2.204623... lbs
//fats
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Ta-152H-1
Wing area: 252.95 sq ft
Empty weight: 8642 lb -> 34.16 lb / sq ft
Max weight: 10472 lb -> 41.40 lb / sq ft
MAx weight (given by fats): 5217 kg = 11502 lb -> 45.47 lb / sq ft
http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/gustin/ger/TA152FOC.html (http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/gustin/ger/TA152FOC.html)
P-51D
Wing area: 233.19 sq ft
Empty weight: 7635 lb -> 32.74 lb/ sq ft
Normal TO weight : 10100 lb -> 43.31 lb/sq ft
Max weight: 12100 lb -> 51.89 lb/sq ft
http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/p51specs.htm (http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/p51specs.htm)
F7F Tigercat
Wing area: 455 sq ft
Empty weight: 16 270 lb -> 35.76 lb/sq ft
Gross weight: 25 720 lb -> 56.53 lb/ sq ft
http://www.rels.com/ag1caf/usplanes/aircraft/tigercat.htm (http://www.rels.com/ag1caf/usplanes/aircraft/tigercat.htm)
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-11-1999).]
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Damn, now those late war designs took over me as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seems that Ar-234 was mentioned before. And it appeeared in 1944. And it saw combat. And 274 were built, according to Gustin's page.
Any info of where and when exactly they were used ?
Don't get me wrong, I am not lobbying for it, I am just curious (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Yes, funked, anything goes policy would surely benefit LW rather than Allies. Their main weapon was quantity anyway.
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
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Well, the H-O was simply a pre-production a/c
designed to for other "sub" varients, The Ta 152H-O/R11, all-weather fighter with LGW K 23 navigation system FuG 125 Hermine Direction-finding system, The Ta 152H-O/R21 with with an otherwise standard GM-1 nitrus oxide power boost system removed(the Ta 152 H-1 never had these removed, it was the H-O),
and the Ta 152H-O/R31, with an enlarged oxide capacity for the GM 1 system.
P.S. Yes, Hristo, quanity of planes that owned everything the Germans had (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"
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So, Nath, what are you trying to say in this thread anyway ?
1. That we need Tigercat ?
We don't. It never served in combat. And it would not be superior to some planes already modeled. Neither we need wonder planes, including Ta 152 (that one saw combat though). Stick to the planes we have, learn to enjoy them.
2. That whole Ta 152 reputation and known data is just bogus ?
Hardly so, I think you know it too.
3. That any airforce in the world had more sophisticated fighter planes than Luftwaffe had ?
Me 262, Me 163, He 162, Ar 234, Ta 152 or Do 335 are really way ahead of the enemies they faced or might have faced. Quantity is hard to model in AH. So every Bearcat/Tigercat/Ubercat has to know that LW would benefit more from all late war monsters modeled.
But please, stop that Uber plane crying for once (not you Nath, I mean everyone). Fly planes we have already, fly them against their historical opponents, and you might find AH great fun. Late war what-if planes just open one big can of worms.
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-11-1999).]
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2. That whole Ta 152 reputation and known data is just bogus ?
Please elaborate on this, are you saying my data isn't accurate?
Only reason I started this thread is it give the people something to think about besides the P38, wasn't intended to start a flame war.
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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"
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Also what I was saying is, the Allied planes were superior to what the Germans had in QUANITY, aka 190 A and 109 G and K.
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Wrong data is in post no. 9, in this same thread, and it is far off. Posts below have corrections on data you gave, but you seem to have neglected them. No Ta 152 had such high wingloading.
Also, 109G-10 or 109K are more than a match for Allied planes found in quantity, IMHO (speaking mostly from HTH WB experience, and 1 month of AH arena).
Now, start flying that 109, you are JG member after all. No more Tempest advocating when I ask for Dora, no more Tigercat what-if SF.
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-11-1999).]
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This is hardly what I would call conclusive evidence.
But the tour guide at the Garber Facility (storage facility for the Air & Space musuem, which actually holds more aircraft than the musuem itself), told us that the Arado Blitz Bomber as mainly used for "terror" raids against England late in the war.
Hit and Run style operations consisting of a couple of planes down to a single plane. Where they come in at high speed over targets like London, drop their ordinance, and then run like hell, back to Germany.
Maybe someone else has more info.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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Hristo, Hristo, Hristo....
I'm speaking from historical data not just Flight Sim modeling. And, no offense but I will post what I like not just about Luftwaffe fighters, and don't assume about what I fly, I fly 109 50% of the time, I dont just fly one plane all the time. Too boring.
P.S. That 52lb/sq ft wing loading was a joke, due to its large wingspan, obviously no one got it. Btw, Germans already have another fighter coming, the 190, we need a new Brit A/c, so I'll advocate for a Tempest.
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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"
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Historical data is a wide range of data. It is mostly anecdotal. You can't value performance of 109K, for example, by analyzing its combat records where it was vulched and fought against 5:1 odds, with inexperienced pilots behind the controls.
P-51D K/D record of 19:1 does not mean it was 19 times better than regular LW planes from the era.
No such data describes situation setup in which a plane was shot down.
What counts are real numbers, obtained by flight tests, and used in accurate modeling, which I believe we have now in AH.
So, in 1990s, I think AH and WB give us more detailed look in what those planes could and couldn't do.
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
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The only thing the Germans really had a lead on at the closing days of WWII was
jets: Me 262, Me 163, He 162, Ar 234.
The Ta 152 or Do 335 would have been eaten up alive by the P47M's and P51H's let alone
the P82 that was just shipping to squadrons.
The BIG difference is the Germans and the Japanese HAD to push and push becuase they were against the ropes.
The Allies did not because what they had was
superior from 1943 into late 1944 and it was
NOT necesary and a matter of survival to push out the door what ever thier engineers could
develop.
All sides were pushing the envelope of the prop plane. All sides were developing them from slightly different perspectives too.
The US was developing air superiority fighters like the P47M, the P51H , the F8F,
the F2G Corsair and the P82. And not to forget to mention that the P80 WAS in the MED theatre in small numbers (very small) doing lame bellybutton "war" patrols and base visits to give the troops a bolster by saying 'we had a jet' too.
By late 44 and 45 the Germans and Japanese were focusing primarily on HIGH alt buff killers. The 190-D, the TA-152 and the Do-335 were meant to be high alt buff killers. The
DO-335 was developed specifically in response to counter the B-29 that was expected to fly the skies over the Fatherland.
They were NOT built as air superiority fighters. I'm not saying they would not be as bad as the ME-110's against Spitfires but the
Spit XVI, Tempest V MKII, P47M etc.... would
have ripped them apart had the war gone later into 1945 and maybe into 1946.
But then the ME262 and HE 162 would have been the real killers...
--Westy
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Exactly, Westy.
Although we slightly disagree about Ta 152 and Do 335.
German constructors were making compromises to make better bomber killers at the end of the war. Who knows how good would late war 190 really be, if not burdened with bomber killer configuration. Same with rest of the planes.
Still, 109 can really give decent 1 vs 1 fight to just about anything Allies had at the time. And win, of course (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hristo,
I/JG 51
Jagdgeschwader 51 Mölders (http://jg51.cjb.net)
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Tempest V mk II never saw service during WW 2, only after did it with No. 54 squadron, 450 were built.
Only Tempest to see service was the Mk V.
The D-9 was never specifically designed to "shoot down bombers." It first saw service with III/JG 54 which was issued to protect the base on which "Kommando Nowotny"(first operational unit to equip with the 262) was based as it worked up to operational numbers with the Me 262. "Kommando Nowotny" was of course led by Maj. Walter "Nowi" Nowotny, this units total tally was 18 enemy a/c shot down with a loss of 26 Me 262s, most of them in accidents. On a day that Adolf Galland was visiting this base, Galland questioned Nowotny's leadership abilities and told him to stay on the ground and lead the operations. "Nowi" with his feelings hurt disobeyed the order, when incoming bombers reported, he took of, even with his me 262 having engine trouble. He managed to shoot down 2 B 24s. His last words heard over the radio were, "I'm burning! My God, my god!", his plane fell vertical and crashed, thus ending the unsuccessfull life of "Kommando Nowotny."
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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"
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I agree, the jets would be the nasty ones. Don't underestimate the Ta 152C or H though. Only the P-51H (of the prop planes you mentioned) was faster.
P-80 and Meteor vs. Me 262 and He 162 and Ar 234 would be a lot of fun!!!
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Jesus guys you remind me of those crap Discovery channels with so called WWII aviation "experts" and "professors" whining about what impact 262s and such like would have had on the outcome. What nonsense!
In most cases the best fighter was the one that was:
a. performing OK-ish;
b. reasonably cheap to manufacture hence available in numbers to the frontline units;
c. reliable and sturdy enough to perform/bring pilot home.
The only things that go for 262 are quad 30mms and top speed. If it was delivered in numbers it would have been destroyed faster than any other German fighter of the war when taking off/landing, lost through accidents/unreliable engines...
335? Ever thought of bailing out of that thing? Visibility in the back non-existent... Blah-blah-blah. "Great fighter"? No thanks...
What's the point if P47 was superior to P51 in performance/endurance if each P51 cost just a fraction of a massive bill for each Jug?
All late war German fighters were either designed or adapted for one purpose alone: to stop wave after wave of 17s, 24s and Lancs destroying what was left of West Germany.
If someone is salivating over Ta152 and such like he's either deluding himself or requires a fleet of B17 drones at 35,000 feet in close formation to enjoy flying that thing. Me262 in WB is a nuisance - not a factor. What makes you think that it would make any difference in AH? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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You people are SO narrow-minded.
Frankly, I'm interested in flying any prop-driven aircraft that might be exciting, nuanced, or just plain fun to fly. I don't give a rat's bellybutton whether it saw combat or not... if it was produced using the technology of the era, that's good enough for me.
All this nitpicking about how many sorties, or whether it saw combat or not, and whether it equipped operational squadrons, or how many examples of the aircraft actually took part in combat, etc., is just so much drivel.
Sheesh... some of you people couldn't expand your horizons even if your heads exploded.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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This is a game if somebody wants a certian plane who cares its a game. This is not a reenactment of WWII we fight same plane on same plane so what difference does it make if a plane was built during WWII and we have good data on it, HT wants to model it then lets have it. IT IS A GAME based in the United States where everyone has freedom of speech. If you dont like someones opinion then dont read thread.
I want a F4U dont care what load out would like all options.
You cry for realism then lets have mechanical problems, lets have poor performance for the LW planes do to lack of good fuel, and by the way the Corsair one saw combat in europe patrolled over the sinking of that german battle ship up north. Didnt shoot nothing but still was flying in combat.
Yuo want to reenact WWII there is a game coming that is going to do that. This is aircombat where skill matters most plane is just that a plane it cant kill on its own.
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Wow quite a thread, I would say that people are a little off base on what the 152 could and did do in combat. While its use was very limited even at that late date in the war I believe that one pilot made ace in it. I would hope that there is room for planes like that in AH at some point. I would rather first see the planes that won and lost the war in 42-43.
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I'd rather see some different stuff. Otherwise they might as well call this "Warbirds Again: The Nice Terrain Version"
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Lynx - Do 335 had an ejection seat. If you think the 262 is just a nuisance, you haven't met a good JetDweeb yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also remember that it has an enormous billboard announcing its presence. Take away the bogus SA advantage of icons, and it would dominate.
I agree about the takeoff/landing and engine problems though. Not a plane for an inexperienced pilot.
I'm with Snakeyes - bring them all on!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-12-1999).]
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Hey funky... how you like my quote? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"Sheesh... some of you people couldn't expand your horizons even if your heads exploded."
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Sucks, mines better.
"blow me."
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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"
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Snake Eyes - I liked it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Here's my quote for game developers:
"Free your plane set and my prettythang will follow!"
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spitfire 21 anyone ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
On the subject - D9 is deadmeat against properly modeled Spit 14 ( not the cripple we're fed for arena balance in WB )
Cheers.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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Just to make things clear... I'm not opposed to stuff like the F2A or anything like that... but this a priori emphasis on numbers, impact, and all that stuff constrains the planeset in a way that leaves out pansies like me who want late war uberplanes.
Tell someone that you're gonna model the P-40E and they're gonna say "so what, I can fly that in WB, AW, FA, or whatever" (you get the point). Be the first to model the Ta-152, and you're gonna get "WOW!!".
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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SnakeEyes:
My quote is more elite than ya'll put togethter: "Bite me!"
//fats
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SnakeEyes, stop you are making me drool!
BTW I think an all F2A arena would be a hoot!