Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: StSanta on December 05, 2000, 06:02:00 PM
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Since both of these planes are something akin to underdogs and at first appearance seem pretty similar, I decided to test and compare them. All the data here is reproduceable by anyone with the time (or in my case, a busted ch fighterstick).
All speeds are in TAS.
Qualitative and quantitative aspects of both fighters will be examined.
Climb
The climb test was conducted from standing still on the ground, timing up to 20k, with full fuel, 8 .50's for the 47 and 4*20's for the 190a8.
P-47:
0-5k: 2:45
5-10k: 4:57
10-15k: 7:15
15-20k 9:42
The P-47 climbed away at an initial climb rate somewhere around 2.25, and maintained this climb rate throghout the climb to 20, only dropping very slightly.
190A8:
0-5k: 2:26
5-10k: 4:52
10-15k: 7:32
15-20k: 10:24
The A8 started off with an initial climb rate of around 2.5, a tad bit more. It steadily dropped; at 6.5k it was down to 2.25, and at 8k 2.0. It went down further as climb increased.
Comparing climb rates: The 190A8 has a better initial climb rate and is significantly faster to 5k. Above 5k, the P47 climbs better and as the altitude increases, the difference becomes greater.
Deck acceleration
From standstill to 300mph
P-47: 1:37
A8: 1:21
The A8 accelerates faster than the 47 on the deck by a good margin
From 200mph to 300mph, altitude 15k:
Aircraft where stable at 200mph, no wep used.
P47: = 0:57
A8: = 1:06
The P-47 outaccelerates the 190A8 at 15k, and the margin rises as altitude increases.
Dive acceleration:
both aircraft were taken to 20, rolled inverted and a 3 g pull was made til the aircraft was heading straight down. Speed was taken as the aircraft passed 15k.
P-47: 500 mph+
190A8: 500mph+
Equal.
Another test was conducted; 5k, roll over, 3g pull to vertical position, 5 g pullout at 2k, measure speed. Speed was identical for the both; 400mph or so.
The 190A8 is superior in terms of accelerationat low to moderate altitudes after which the P-47 gains the edge.
Speed
Speed tests were done by getting the aircraft up to decent speed with wep, then letting wep off and waiting for speed to stabilize. it is possible that some erros have snuck in here.
Deck speed:
P-47: 325 mph
190A8: 325 mph
Both aircraft are capable of roughly the same speeds on the deck.
20k speed:
P-47: 375 mph+
190A8: 365 mph
The P-47 is 10 mph faster than the 190A8 at altitude. Errors might have snuck in but it's my belief that the P-47 is somewhat faster.
Zoom climb:
Stable at 400mph, 3g pull up to 45 degree climb, mark alt when speed = 150.
Note: these might be a bit off, as my stick is spikey.
P-47: 5.6k gain
190A8: 6k gain
Same setup, 90 degree climb:
P-47 4.8
A8: 4.5
Nothing conclusively can be said of this due to stick spikes, other than they are quite similar.
Deceleration/drag
300mph stable speed at 5k, chop throttle. Measure time to slow to 200mph when level.
P-47: 0:29
A8: 0:23
The P-47 appears to have less drag and keep speed better when at idle throttle.
Weapons
P-47:
8 .50's; 1700 rounds inner, same amount outher
190A8:
2*13mm, total 950 rounds
4*20, total 780; 500 of which are in inner cannons
There seems to be a bug in the 13mm of the 190; cannons can hit at beyond d350, but 13mm very rarely do.
The P-47 has a powerful armament of 8 .50's. While they lack the InstantDeath(tm) capability of cannons, they have a good rate of fire, a very high muzzle velocity and an excellent range. Effective killing range is up to 600, more if the pilot is a good shot. there's relatively little need for lead compared to the A8 and a greater amount of ammo. It surpasses the A8 in long range shots and deflection shots, but packs less of a punch when range is small.
The 190A8 packs a better punch for close range shots. Its guns have limited range though with a maximum reasonable killing range of d375-d400. Muzzle velocity is low and a lot of lead is needed in snapshots.
Roll rate
At low and moderate speeds, the 190A8 has a far superior roll rate to the P-47.The advantage is lowered as speed gets high and above 500, the difference isn't that noticeable.
Turning capability
This is a qualitative judgement from my side. It appears tto me that the instantaneous turn rate is quite similar, with a possible edge to the 190A8. At low speeds, the P-47 is better and can deploy flaps at a higher speed.
Low speed and stall performance
Again a qualitative assesment.
The P-47 handles slightly better at low speeds and has the ability to pop flaps at a higher speed. A8 can pop flaps at 190 mph; I tried pooping flaps at 210 with no problem in the P-47. Low speed stalls are much more gentle in the P-47; the A8 stalls at high speed and has a tendency to viciously snap roll. The P-47 gives more warning.
Structural integrity
The P-47 can take more battle damage than the 190A8, and its engine runs for longer with an oil leak. Both planes are quite capable of ripping wings at high speeds; the 190A8 does so at lower g-forces than the P47 (assuming same speed). Both planes seem capable of flying with a wingtip missing.
Trim
The 190A8 requires less trim than the P47. Both are quite stable.
Endurance
Where the 190A8 is the mdiget in terms of legs, the P-47 is a giant. It has much superior endurance to the A8 and for most sorties would not require a drop tank.
Air to ground ordnance
The P-47 is a true beast when it comes to air to ground ordnance; a maximum loadout is 2*1000lb + 1*500lb + 10 5" HVAR rockets.
Loadout for the 190A8 consists of either 1 250kg bomb or one 500kg. The 190A8 has destructive 30mm guns option for jabo missions, but is much inferior in the air to ground role; in terms of armoured vehicles, the 190 can take out one, whereas the P-47 can hit three with bombs and then finish off more with the rockets. It lacks cannons for hardened structures. however, the .50's are excellent ack killers.
Cockpit visibility
COckpit visibility in both aircraft is excellent, with the P-47 having a better one. The slider bar in the A8 obstructs front up view and even with some moving around it can still be in the way. Still, the A8 cockpit is very good in terms of visibility.
Looks
The P-47 is butt ugly. It's a huge fat overweight American former beauty queen with an enormous engine. in short, it looks like a pregnant hippo on her way to the grocery store.
The 190A8 however, is the very definition of sleek and dangerous beatuy. Sharklike, it possesses a mystical combination of beauty, brutality and raw danger. If it was an animal, it'd be a great white shark.
Conclusion
I did this comparison because I wanted to avoid putting my foot in my mouth again.
The two aircraft are incredibly well matched; the most noticeable differences being the a8's roll rate advantage/P-47's better low speed handlings. Yet they have two different approaches; the 190A8 is at its best below 10k, whereas the P-47 performs very well above 10k. The 190A8 has a good, shortrange punch requiring lots of lead, whereas the P-47 has a longer range, but weaker punch requiring substantially less lead. The P-47 far outperforms the 190A8 in a jabo role. Some of the difference is compensated if the 190A8 carries 30mm cannons.
One thing is true for both; pilots flying these aircraft must be patient, tactically cunning and good e preservers. If surprised low and slow, they're essentially dead meat - the 190 has an advantage here though due to its superior roll rate, acceleration and climb at low altitudes. In a P47 vs 190A8 low level co alt high speed fight, the 190A8 has the advantage.
As mentioned, at higher altitudes, the P-47 outperformes the 190 and if the 190 elects to stay in a high altitude dogfight with a P-47, the odds are against him.
Some of this is IMHO. If you care to check my data, feel free to do so (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Now, allied dweebs, go play with kerosene.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 12-05-2000).]
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nice post stsanta...
so what have they done to the 190 to make it on par with that ugly pregnent hippo? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I always thought 190 was considered one of the best planes of ww2 but what was it considered best at? Dogfighting? jabo?
I dont know why but i always thought 190 was a much better aircraft than all but the latest versions of p51's and spit's.But in AH i always feel at a disadvantage in 190.
Only my fantastic piloting skills win the day harhardehar! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hazed
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With the exception of the D9, the 190's sort of had sucky engines.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Nice job Santa!!!
NM erased hijack stuff. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The main point is WTG Santa!!!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Crap - ok, deleted my stuff then LOL
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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CU
Purzel
--
"Find the enemy and shoot him down, everything else is nonsense!"
M. von Richthofen
[This message has been edited by Purzel (edited 12-05-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Purzel (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
With the exception of the D9, the 190's sort of had sucky engines.
Well, Stsanta I dont think so...the BMW801 was a mechanical wonder, very advanced, with a mechanic computer (kommandogërat was it called?) and a very high output for its weight and size -BMW801D delivered 1800hp in 1 ton of weight-
It was a reliable and durable engine able to stay a lot of damage.
The problem was the lack of a proper supercharger/turbocharger for it. I asked a lot of questions about this same matter in another thread some time ago, but the problem is that the Jug had a very big turbocharger and so its high altitude performance was much better than the BMW's.
But the engine itself from my point of view, wasnt that sucky.
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/p51.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 12-05-2000).]
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Excellent post!
Sounds like you did the test with 100% fuel and 425rpg in the p47. Is that correct?
My standard A2A loadout is 75% internal fuel and 8x.50/267rpg. That gives me initial climb of 2.5k. That also gives it similar range and duration of fire to the a8.
That puts them about even, but the a8 can use its ample wep on climbout and still have plenty left by the time it gets into combat. With wep i think the a8 does about 3k/min initially.
My subjective impression is that the p47 seems to retain E better than the a8. But that could just be because i fly the jug much more.
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Nice work Santa (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[HijackMode]
2 things,
- I reckon the Jug has a beauty all of its own, kinda odd lookin but i reckon it looks very purposefull!
- And lastly why would you fly either? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)unless you do most of your bread and butter fighting @ 25+ K where the jug is a beast! I dont get on well with the 190 A8 so not an option for me.
The P51 is superior to both (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[/HijackMode]
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For historical reference, the 1700 rds per bank is considered overload condition
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i think these 2 aircraft are very well matched but i think they are both porked as well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
the p-47 is about 5 MPh too slow with wep (according to data) and the 190a8 climbs too slowly (according to any type of reasonable engineering analysis)
but when you combine the 2s flaws, they are VERY well matched
a similar comparison could be made of the p-51 and the 109-g10, they too are very well matched in my opinion (and well modeled)
i would like to see the p47 and the 190a8 both get unporked tho (see frenchy's daya on porkedness of p47, my 190a5 v 190a8 comparison for porkedness of the 190a8)
btw i dont think the 190a5 is porked, they have it modeled spot on IMO
but they porked the a8 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
but annnyyyyways i am robbing his thread, VERY nice work santa, i agree with 100% of it. when in a p47 i love fighting 190s and in a 190 i love fighting p47s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can now go to bed with a smile on my face.
Been a while since that happened (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Big <S> StSanta. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hmm, I wonder about turn-rate tests. It would be interesting to see. I find when things get low and slow, the FW's roll rate is the key. Although the Jug may be a bit more stable at low speeds, it just can't follow the FW through scissors at those speeds.
BTW, I normally go hunting in the Jug with 75% and one drop. Without the drop the Jug climbs about 2500 initially, and hits about 2800 with WEP.
Again, Kudos for doing some testing! I hope to meet up with you 1v1 in your A8 vs. my Jug sometime. I just hope it's at 20k. <G>
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Nice write up StSanta! When in the MA I always head for the 190's in the crowd because I feel I really get my moneys worth when I fight on with a decent pilot behind the stick. I hate Spits, Niki's and fighting F4U's, 38's and 51's feels unnatural when I am in a 47. But if there is a 109, or better yet a 190, my adrenaline flows, the film gets turned on and the gun switches go "hot"
And the Jug is beautiful. It's big, like me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-06-2000).]
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Nice write up StSanta, I agree that the 190A8 and the Jug are pretty evenly matched in many ways. But the Jug is better overall.
The Jug is ironically a better buff hunter than the 190A8, which historically hunted buffs while being hunted by Jugs. With a full tank of fuel you can climb a Jug up to 30K and go looking for a HQ raid to break up without worrying about running out of fuel. The Jug's guns are almost as good at taking out buffs as the 190's are.
Down low in a 1 on 1 the FW's advantages only really show themselves at higher speeds, above 250mph or so. At high speeds the 190's nimble controls can fake a Jug out of it's shorts. But once the fight bleeds down below 200mph all the advantages swing in favor of the Jug. Below about 50% fuel the Jug also has a nice ability to hang on its prop with full flaps and WEP at about 90mph and force an overshoot. The FW's advantage in accelleration is useless at these lower speeds. If the 190 driver doesn't win quick, he's going to have a problem surviving.
Remember, the 190A8 is a mid-war 'design', while the Jugs we have now are very late war designs. If we ever get a P47-C it may be a closer match to the 190A8.
Regarding looks, here is a neutral scientific opinion written by an aerodynamicist years ago:
"If the emission occurs in the vicinity of a mode conversion region - i.e. a region where the local dispersion relations for two polarizations become nearly degenerate - the far field is very complex. The special case of plane-wave sources can be analyzed in detail and it is shown that the qualitative nature of the far field is completely determined by the ray geometry of the uncoupled modes. If the source is tunable then, by varying the source and
observing the associated changes in the emitted waves, one can extract a great deal of information about the background medium. Numerical simulations were conducted for a model problem involving two interacting 1-D wave modes excited in a non-stationary and non-homogeneous medium. The qualitative picture of emission agrees with the theoretical predictions. In conclusion, the Jug is better looking than the FW-190 by a long shot."
ra
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BAH ra (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It's ugly.
And down low, I'd rather have a 190. If it gets a jug on its 6, it can outscissor 'im due to the much better roll rate. It can gain nose to nose positio and then accelerate away.
As the fight gets slower the jug becomes better and better compared to the 190A8. A slow turn fight the Jug should win by making use of flaps.
Regarding buff capabilities; it depends on how you attack. Usually, i go in very fast from 10 or 2 o clock, on intercept course ahead of the buff. At d250-300 I open up with everything. If I carry 30mm, the buff is gonna suffer. Even with 20's, one or two passes is enough.
But the jug is better than the jug for buff hunting if the buff is high or co alt - longer range on guns and better hi alt performance.
I guess it's a matter of perspective - I think it's too close to call to decide whether one is superior than the other. Two different philosophies.
A snapshot with Jugs vs A8's would be cool.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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I think it would come down to convergence and length of the burst you can put on target StSanta. If the target was fast at a high deflection angle, you've a better chance of killing him with the cannons I think. You might hit him easier with the Jug, but chances of a kill or a cripple are low with that kind of shot.
A snapshot with the target in the bullet stream for a bit longer and the Jug will do leathal damage. So would the FW, but it would be an easier shot in the Jug with the .50's great trajectory.
BTW guys, I think this all boils down to what roll you put the plane in. At below 15k, arena altitudes, the FW holds all the cards. The FW can disengage with a bit of skill and the Jug can't. All the FW driver has to do is scissor to slow the Jug down, then flick away and accellerate for an exit. I've had good FW drivers do it to me when flying the Jug and the Hog. The FW driver can dictate terms, the Jug can only hope the FW is stupid enought to try a stallfight.
In the arena, the FW is slightly superior IMHO. In a scenario, or other high altitude settings, the Jug will win the day. I think your tests bear that out pretty well.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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190 was one of the best when it was introduced because...
In RL often the fight would last a few seconds or a minute or so with the 190's NEVER getting slow. They would dive in on the target and extend, possibly to never return. Its high speed maneuverability permitted it to make accurate attacks on the allied spits and the like, which did not handle well at high speeds.
Of course once the allies got planes which handled better at high speeds te tables turned.
AKSKurj
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thx Santa for numbers, great job (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
All I know is that FW-190-A5 on deck out-turn me bad when sustained, out accel me bad and well... screews me deep. <caught caught> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Good post Santa, I'm pleased that you included the "Looks" catagory . A lot of people are insensitive to the importance of this catagory and often overlook it .
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(http://home.earthlink.net/~suvorov/TAG.jpg)
The slinky of destiny is returning to the top of the stairs .
[This message has been edited by Suave1 (edited 12-09-2000).]
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Frenchy...I am still stunned by the amazing fights we had yesterday. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I can't stop hitting the "replay" in the film viewer!!! That fight was a beauty, and the first one was even better!.
BTW please can you send me the films? Email is in the profile. I'll send you the one I have
Thanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hey, dont shoot me! I'm on the light side!!
(http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/luke3.gif)
(http://www.navegalia.com/hosting/000e0/illumm/straffing.gif)
[This message has been edited by Luke Skywalker (edited 12-09-2000).]
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The Fw 190's armament wasn't as bad as some indicate. The 20mm MG 151 generally fired M-Geschoss high-capacity shells at around 800 m/s compared to 880 m/s for the .50", although they weren't such a good shape so they slowed down more quickly.
When it comes to long range effectiveness, you have to remember that the .50 relied on kinetic energy to do the damage, so its effectiveness dropped off with distance. The cannon relied on chemical energy in the HE, which stayed the same regardless of distance (the MG 131 also fired cannon-type projectiles). So although the .50's better trajectory might give it a better chance of scoring long-range hits, the cannon shells would be more destructive if they did hit.
Another point in favour of the 190 was that two of the cannon (in the wing roots) and the 13mm MG 131 in the cowling were very close to the aircraft's centerline, so avoided the problem of the US plane's wing guns, of needing to be harmonised (i.e. aimed inwards to hit the target at a specific range). I understand that in practice P-47's usually had pairs of guns harmonised at different distances, but this would mean that you wouldn't get a really concentrated fire from all 8 guns at any distance.
Tony Williams
New book: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm)
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Ahh, but they are comparing the guns performance in Aces High - which most acknowledge as being somewhat different from reality.
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Originally posted by Tony Williams:
The Fw 190's armament wasn't as bad as some indicate.
In WWII? no. In AH? Yes.
Mausers plain and simply such in Aces High. And the 13mm in WWII may have used cannon-like rounds.
In AH for sure, not. THe friggin thing has less hitting power than my little cousin's pea shooter.
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I once got an uber BB in the G10 one night...
popped the wing off a Tiff with a single 13mm hit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
- Jig
PS before you ask, I had already used me cannon on WD, and the other Tiff had just came down from A20 so he didn't have any previous damage because he hadn't been replaning.
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Last night I ended up in a co e fight with a 190a5. I was flying a heavy p47d25. I dropped my bomb before fighting, but I accidently left a rocket on.
We were the only two planes in the whole sector. (Not a chog or n1k for miles and miles and miles. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) The fight started with the 190 climbing slightly and me diving. We both fired on the merge, but I don't think either of us landed hits. What developed was a good fight with me trying to keep E by zooming as often as possible. Eventually I start to stall out (and realize I left a rocket, so I shot that off) and I begin a scissors type of fight. The 190 managed to take out my oil, but I knew the jug would last quite a while. The 190s great rate of roll enabled it to land quite a few MG hits, but fortunately for me they didn't damage me too badly. Eventually I was able to get the 190 to overshoot. Dropping 3 notches of flaps I managed to catch the 190 nearly HO, with me slightly above. I landed quite a few hits on this pass, and did the same on the next go around. The 190 lost a wingtip and was unable to recover and crashed. I tried to salute the pilot (who I hadn't meet before) but he never said anything? I have the film of the fight, I'll post it here later:
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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post! post! post! post! Watching films in F5 view with trails is awesome. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)