Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: mtnman on December 30, 2009, 03:57:55 AM
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I got into a fight tonight with a higher, faster Spit16, while in my F4U-1A. Afterward, some questions came up regarding my "unlimited E" and my ability to climb with/out-climb the Spit16.
I'd like to offer up this film in an effort to discuss/critique the fight, and hopefully turn it into a learning experience for any that are interested. I think there are a few things going on in this fight that a lot of people have trouble understanding or putting to use. As a trainer, I run into questions on this particular "problem" quite often.
This isn't a fast and furious, super exciting fight. But I think that may actually help with understanding some of the concepts.
In my case, how did I take a position of starting out lower/slower, and turn it into a co-E situation, and then morph that into being the aggressor myself? How was I able to climb with/out-climb the spit16?
In my opponents case, what did he do that "helped me out", and what could he have done differently? He was obviously trying to "play it safe" E-wise. He had the advantage, and didn't want to squander it by getting careless. Where's the line between "smart" and overly cautious. How did conserving his E get him into trouble? Since he has to spend some of his E to kill me, how can he put that E to better use? Get the most "bang" for his "buck"?
I'm on my way to bed, I work some goofy hours for the next few nights. I'll add to this post later, but would love to see some (er, a bunch of) input from others. Let's teach this guy how to kill me in this situation...
http://www.4shared.com/file/184587550/62e25f90/Dazy_Spit16_long_0405.html
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Hmm, nice kill.
But to be honest, your opponent had the finesse of a target drone. Seriously, this had to be one of the worst Spit16 displays i've seen in a long time.
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bummer won't work, i get problem needs to close. I didn't see it but i guess he extended to far. Am I close?
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Well first off the spits initial advantage was greatest at first meet. Granted you had about 300mph of speed at first so this would have to have been worn down by keeping you fighting verticle, which with a Spit16 with superior altitude shouldn't have been a problem. A couple of quick over the top runs, or something that is going to force you to turn level or up, would have burned up enough of your E to make you either have to dive away or make you a slow turning turtle waiting for the spit to do the verticle run on you. This all should be able to be accomplished in about a minute, two at most This is what should of happened. Now what actually happened is the spit was so tentative that it allowed you tol build up E in the form of altitude for a long time, at one point you were only 200 below and co speed, before any sort of offense was shown. So at this point you were co-E, but with the spit on your roughly 6 o clock. At the point you turned into him, slightly nose down, I was expecting something more verticle out of the spit but instead he helped you out by diving nose low. This is what every hog driver wants to see, and at the point at which most know they own the fight at this point. Giving you the nose down and greater inertia of the hog vs the light spit, when he goes back up you simply out zoom climb him. From this point on you are in control of the fight as long as he stays and fights. His proper option at this point would have been to extend and try and reset. But not the case, at this point in the fight he did have slightly more speed, but not enough of a difference to try and do what he did. He tried to pull an immelman back over the top in which case the hogs superior zoom played in, and it just came down to your gunnery as the gap quickly closed.
I don't know if you wanted an answer from another trainer but I gave it anyway :lol, thought it would be interesting to see if any different views show up.
:salute
BigRat
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Not the worst spit 16 flying i've seen by a long shot. It was actualy quite patient and well thought out at first. The mistake was in trying to maintain an altitude/energy advantage after initialy dumping all speed. For the spit to kill the hog I would suggest a slightly more aggresive approach in the horizontal not the vertical. Dumping the speed was a good start but after that he seemed to be toying with the F4u. This is all very well and good if he had kept the large E advantage but after dumping his speed it was suicide. The spit16 can have trouble out-turning an f4u at high to medium speeds anyhow, let alone at low speed.
I could see what the spit wanted to do, he was just not confident enough in himself or his plane's ability to saddle up and thus, threw the fight away.
On the other hand, the F4u was flown very well. It's all too easy to say what the spit did wrong but the truth is that the F4u was flown to perfection and with complete confidence. Once it became a chase with the spitfire out front there was very little chance it could have gained back any advantage at all.
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Once it became a chase with the spitfire out front there was very little chance it could have gained back any advantage at all.
the spit was still in the fight at the end(because mtman burned some E for a kill shot which he missed), but he chose to dive well beyond a speed he could sustain and THEN is when he blew his advantage. had he leveled out when he reached his top speed he could have extended infront of the slower accelerating corsair and begin a slow climb to reengage. OR the spit could have looped above the corsair and put pressure on him.
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Perhaps, but from what i saw he was being chased. What with the F4u being a reasonably fast a/c it would have been a long process to get any kind of seperation again. From before that moment the F4u was in the driving seat.
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Hmm, nice kill.
But to be honest, your opponent had the finesse of a target drone. Seriously, this had to be one of the worst Spit16 displays i've seen in a long time.
This is the "Help and Training" forum. Negative comments aren't really going to be conducive to those concepts, are they?
He didn't fly poorly at all. He just opened some opportunities for me, while not capitalizing on his. We're trying to discuss some better options. Believe it or not, this is a "problem" for a lot of people. It's a common one that I get approached with, and rather than tackling them all one at a time, I'm hoping we can help more people learn about it here.
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Well first off the spits initial advantage was greatest at first meet. Granted you had about 300mph of speed at first so this would have to have been worn down by keeping you fighting verticle, which with a Spit16 with superior altitude shouldn't have been a problem. A couple of quick over the top runs, or something that is going to force you to turn level or up, would have burned up enough of your E to make you either have to dive away or make you a slow turning turtle waiting for the spit to do the verticle run on you. This all should be able to be accomplished in about a minute, two at most This is what should of happened. Now what actually happened is the spit was so tentative that it allowed you tol build up E in the form of altitude for a long time, at one point you were only 200 below and co speed, before any sort of offense was shown. So at this point you were co-E, but with the spit on your roughly 6 o clock. At the point you turned into him, slightly nose down, I was expecting something more verticle out of the spit but instead he helped you out by diving nose low. This is what every hog driver wants to see, and at the point at which most know they own the fight at this point. Giving you the nose down and greater inertia of the hog vs the light spit, when he goes back up you simply out zoom climb him. From this point on you are in control of the fight as long as he stays and fights. His proper option at this point would have been to extend and try and reset. But not the case, at this point in the fight he did have slightly more speed, but not enough of a difference to try and do what he did. He tried to pull an immelman back over the top in which case the hogs superior zoom played in, and it just came down to your gunnery as the gap quickly closed.
I don't know if you wanted an answer from another trainer but I gave it anyway :lol, thought it would be interesting to see if any different views show up.
:salute
BigRat
Heck yea! I want input from anyone!
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Well first off the spits initial advantage was greatest at first meet. Granted you had about 300mph of speed at first so this would have to have been worn down by keeping you fighting verticle, which with a Spit16 with superior altitude shouldn't have been a problem. A couple of quick over the top runs, or something that is going to force you to turn level or up, would have burned up enough of your E to make you either have to dive away or make you a slow turning turtle waiting for the spit to do the verticle run on you.
That's a key point I wanted to see. If you watch the film, you'll see that when he decides to commit, and turns to me, initially he's higher, and equal speed (20 seconds in- 10k 320mph, vs 12k 320mph). IMO, this is his best opportunity. He gets another opportunity (possibly two) later on.
He's never really in control of the fight at all, but this is his best shot at taking control. The reason I say that is that all I need to do is dive away and extend. That option is there for the entire fight. Worst case for me is he's too close as I dive, but a few little rolls and slight pulls to get him out of plane and I'm home free. Speed is my friend in this fight.
Had he opened with a slashing attack here, he could have forced me to turn hard, and forced me to lose altitude to maintain my speed. IMO, it would be dangerous to over-commit on this attack; it could go to a rolling scissors and he'd be in trouble. Rather, he should come in aggressively, ready to shoot if an opportunity presents itself, but be ready to zoom up into a hi yo-yo and repeat. Don't allow himself to go lower than me. Don't give me time to think too much. Force me to react to his attack, without putting himself in danger. If he does that, he'll either pin my to the deck, get me slow enough that his superior acceleration is a big factor, or force me to dive and run. His acceleration advantage means nothing to me if I'm fast. It means a LOT if I'm slow.
He doesn't open that way though, so what happens?
I can maintain speed, and even climb. By 2:10 I'm 13.1K 280mph, he's 13.5K 325. I'm almost equal E by this point! Sure, he's behind me. So what? I still have the dive away option... Behind me is OK in my book. On top of me would be really bad for me though. Keeping him separated horizontally as much as possible will work to my advantage, and work against him.
At 2:25 he has another opportunity to slash attack/pressure me. His timing is just off, and it doesn't pressure me as a result. This could have been a good opportunity for him too.
2:50- fight is all mine to do with what I want at this point. I'm 10.2K 403, he's 10.9K 392. He's exactly where I want him to be. He cannot maintain this speed in level flight. If I just stay level I'll extend away. OR, I could climb (shallow) at say 350mph. I'll soon be above him. He can't climb at that speed, but I can... He cannot catch me, and cannot escape, because I'm faster, and I've "caught up" in alt/E.
Uh-oh, at 3:30... Is he losing interest? Veering away? I'd better let him think he can catch me. Give him a corner to cut, slow myself down a bit... Perfect, here he comes! Maybe a merge? A rolling scissors? (Please!) Nope. But, I think I can get a shot off... Nope, overconfidence on my part. Could he have capitalized on this? By 4:20 I've recovered my wits, and am setting up for him.
But! Here was an opportunity for him! I was too slow to climb with him! This could have been set up as a rope by him, or he could have climbed away. I'd have been forced to level out. He could have had my high-side again... He has this same opportunity at about 5:10. I cannot maintain this type of fight against him. He can climb away, or try to rope me.
Reversing back (5:20ish) is a bad option for him. It gives me a guns solution. It allows me to pressure him. Diving away is a bad option for him. It gives me my speed back, where I dominate. He can't get away, I'm faster... Then, a shallow climb, above his max level speed (6:20). Look at his speed fall away. He can't maintain that... I'll catch up quickly. Keeping my nose below him keeps my speed up. I can maintain this for a long time... He can't... He's fighting the F4U's fight... I'm pressuring him, just by keeping my speed up and following him. He has to react. Then a zoom. He's slower than me. He won't be able to out-zoom me.
His keys are forcing me to turn sharp/flat. Get me slow, keep me slow. BnZ me. Pressure me. By not doing that, he allows me to maintain/build E. If it turns into a level tail chase, it's my fight, unless we're slow. He can then use his accel and go vertical on me... His best opportunities for that were at the places I mentioned. Another possibility is to bleed my speed, and take the fight up/vertical while I'm slow. He needs to minimize horizontal separation, and try to take a position nearly directly over me. It's really the only way he can pressure me.
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This is the "Help and Training" forum. Negative comments aren't really going to be conducive to those concepts, are they?
He didn't fly poorly at all. He just opened some opportunities for me, while not capitalizing on his. We're trying to discuss some better options. Believe it or not, this is a "problem" for a lot of people. It's a common one that I get approached with, and rather than tackling them all one at a time, I'm hoping we can help more people learn about it here.
Well I'm sorry if I my comment sounded negative, it was not my intention by any means. In hindsight I should have taken the time to make a more detailed comment, so i hope you dont mind if i do it now.
Well, I stand by my point that this was poor Spit16 flying, not poor flying in general. If he had been in a P-39, it would have fitted the plane much better,
He flew the Spit16 poorly, because he, in this particular matchup, failed to use any of the Spits strengths against the Hog. Even moreso, he used the Spits weak points on his offensive and defensive moves.
I'll try list his mistakes from the merge on:
1. He almost completely flat-turned after the merge, killing off his e-advantage. Thats not a plane specific error. though.
2. He tried to catch in a long chase, giving up even more energy. He did that twice. Spit cannot catch the Hog there, clearly a plane-specific mistake.
3. As you forced the overshoot (very nice move btw :aok ), he had all the right cards to turn the table again. You invested a lot of e in that move, and you got quite slow behind him. Now he could have used the Spits way superior climbrate to get out of gun-range, and then establish a clear E-advantage quickly. Instead he Split-esses, and tries to outdive you. Again, two severe plane specific-errors and this is the point where he lost the fight.
4. He intitially out-acclererated you in the dive, so he keeps running altough the hog retains the divespeed much better and thus you start catching him. Yet another plane specific mistake.
In my book, this is rather poor flying of the Spit16.
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As far as "spit flying" I have to agree with boozeman, he didn't use the strengths at all in that plane.
He had all the advantages at the start of the fight. On his first pass seeing you did very little in the way of a defensive move nor any kind of attacking move should have told him that he had someone who knew what he was doing, and that his opponent was trying to save "E" as best he could. His first move should have been a bit more aggressive and this would have given him the same info, but with a bit more surety.
From then on he must be more aggressive so as to not let his opponent build the "E" he seems to need, but with the proper caution knowing he had someone who knows what he's doing, to leave him self some outs with hi yo-yos and such. Aggressive caution I guess :D
Its a fine line to push the fight hard enough to keep the hog from gaining "E" but not burning so much yourself that you fall into his clutches. On the other hand, if the spitty could shoot like Mtnman can the fight could have been over in the first pass. :P I wish I could shoot like that.
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My only wish is to be able to see your films. The last 2 or three you've posted all crash my viewer. I have tried a new download of AH then downloaded all the terrains and got some of my films to work. All my new films work and I've asked in Tech support numerous times but yours still won't work for me. :headscratch: :(
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I'm commenting here as I'm watching...
From memory the other pilot isn't bad at all but is more of a pony driver in my mind. This plays heavily into the initial major mistake (my opinion). The initial attack needs to be very aggressive. either your +E and have control of the fight or you don't. Every second you give the hog only lets him build E and erodes any initial advantage you might have. The initial move had to be vertical with minimum extension and forcing the hog to turn. Basically you need to drive the hog down....
At 1:12 in MT hasn't been pressured at all. Basically fight is over here. Once you give a good hog driver an accurate measure of your E state your dead unless your an ace in your plane of choice. So conceptually the spitty is flying entirely the wrong fight. He needs to take his opponents full measure early and act accordingly. Totally the opposite of flying a pony (as an example). slightly later (1:19?) he totally over reacts to Mt's "twitch"...to me this is a better then avergae stick unsure how to prosocute an attack in the spitty (again much more of a ponyesque response).
If this was in a training environment I'd stop it right here (speaking as a former trainer) and ask him what he's thinking. As a result at 2:50 or so mt has now reached equal footing, if i'm in hog the spitty has gone from being a bogey to being a target at this point. You can even hear the change as Mt comes off of wep...he knows he has complete control at this point. The only chance the spit had to control the fight was early, he is either defensive or not and he needed to find out. He is actually more at risk at the 2:50 mark since mt has his full measure. Even if he was negative E at the initial "merge" mt has no clear measure of relative E state and needs to (again just my opinion) walk a fine line between keeping E vs giving up angles or a low % snap shot. By being passive he is filling in the only piece of information missing (relative E state). I stopped watching here since everything after the 2:50 mark is induced by mt. He took control the moment he saw he had parity and actually "came off the gas" to begin the transition to the end game.
To me this highlights the difference between a pilot with very good plane specific tactics/ACM and once with a much more broad based expertise. There is a big difference between flying a plane (even a spixteen) and flying it to its maximum potential. The moment that the spitty crossed props with the hog he had about a 90 second shot clock to kill it. If the hog is +E then the spits a target (obviously relative pilot skill can alter this) but the spitty can not force a fight regardless. So if the spitty is +E he needs to aggressively pursue a victory even if that entails risk. The same pilot who can reverse/kill him from a disadvantage can and will hunt him down +E. To me this is a very good example of why time in the TA with a trainer is so valuable...you need to have a plan before you engage. Then it just comes down to execution, this is a prime example (IMO) of planning as you go...which rarely if ever works vs a top stick...especially in his favorite ride.
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My only wish is to be able to see your films. The last 2 or three you've posted all crash my viewer. I have tried a new download of AH then downloaded all the terrains and got some of my films to work. All my new films work and I've asked in Tech support numerous times but yours still won't work for me. :headscratch: :(
Are you opening the film itself? Or opening the viewer and then through the viewer opening the film?
I couldn't open films I had just taken, and it was getting very frustrating. Then I opened just the viewer and it worked, but if I try to go straight from the film file it will error out.
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Great input guys! Hopefully Dazy will stop in and get some ideas. Hopefully I can get him into the TA too.
Boozeman, that's much more in line with what I was looking for. Thanks for expanding on your ideas.
wgmount- I'm not sure what to tell you. I don't understand what would cause those problems. Do you have the appropriate terrains in your AH file? If you can figure it out, let me know and I can send you any films you'd like... I open films by going right to my films file and double-clicking on them. I don't open the viewer first, and I close the viewer after each film. I'm not sure if that matters, or why it should.
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ill just make some points.
1. the F4u out weighs the spit so dispite a higher climbrate at that alt. When it went to a zoom climb at the end you have all that energy pushing you up. + the fact that you dont have to climb as high you just have to be in gun range.
2. Someone pointed out that Dazy is a pony driver. I remember when i first started Death by Dazy over and over again :D He was one of the first players to give me pointers on flying. I dont know if he has flown the spit alot first time ive ever seen him in one. But if your used to the pony on the zoom climb and you think well the spit has a much better climb rate it should be no problem,( Dont know what Dazy was thinking that used to be my thinking.) Well we can all see the result zoom climb and max climb rate are two different things. I think if he would have gone to a sustained climb until his max climb rate evened out the e states then roped. I think this is what he was tryin by the look of it. He just misjudged it. He knows the diff in my opinion.
3. Some of these things get to be subconscience in one plane and we have to rethink all aspects in a diff plane and sometimes we misjudge e states and angles because it worked in the other plane.
4. A few mistakes can come back to haunt use later, even one mistake will make the diff in a fight.
5. Thanks for the post these kind of things give you new ways to see ACM and how they actually work. Not how I think it is working from inside my plane.
6. I know i lost some fights and looked at the film later to think "thats it" thats all he did or didnt do to win the fight and i was flying by )*(& off and he made it look to easy.
<S> Dazy and Mtn always a great fight
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I'll have to go look at the rest of the fight to have an intelligent comment, but as I stated above the fight was really over before it truly began. A co-e Hog (well flown) will totally dominate a spitty (unless you have an exceptional spitty driver). The hog is the only plane that can not only E fight the spit but actually beat it in an extreme angles fight as long as the hog driver doesn't let the fight truly bottom out to the point he loses the ability to go vertical with the spit. The only way (IMO){other then a snap shot} the spit can/will win is if he can convert a-E fight to an angles fight on the deck and then use his superior climb & acceleration to convert back to an E fight on the deck. Dazy is an outstanding pony driver and a good all around stick. From my view he simply didnt have a solid grasp of what type of fight to fly and he's not the type to "run". The natural inclination to "stalk" the F4U is probably what did him in. I think it would be an interesting fight to see him vs Mt (or any good hog driver) in a pony instead of the spitfire. All he did "wrong" in the spitty is 100% correct in the pony...
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I have all new terrains and a new download of AH but i still can't play films made before 12/2 or the last 3 or four you posted mtnman. I am trying to learn how to do the rolling scissors and I believe you posted one with you and SHawk that i could play the first 3 minutes of before the player crashed the one with the P38 overshoot wouldn't even load.
I still haven't won a rolling scissors fight. I have changed a little in the -1a to dropping 2 notchs of flaps and cutting to 1/4 throttle on the top then pulling the flaps back in on the way down but always get beat. not sure what to look for or which way to point the nose or what to look at to know i am making progress. I don't know if it is throttle manipulation of if my rolls aren't tight enough or loose enough or what.
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I have all new terrains and a new download of AH but i still can't play films made before 12/2 or the last 3 or four you posted mtnman. I am trying to learn how to do the rolling scissors and I believe you posted one with you and SHawk that i could play the first 3 minutes of before the player crashed the one with the P38 overshoot wouldn't even load.
I still haven't won a rolling scissors fight. I have changed a little in the -1a to dropping 2 notchs of flaps and cutting to 1/4 throttle on the top then pulling the flaps back in on the way down but always get beat. not sure what to look for or which way to point the nose or what to look at to know i am making progress. I don't know if it is throttle manipulation of if my rolls aren't tight enough or loose enough or what.
Well, I'm at a loss on how to resolve your filmviewer issues. I see from some of your other posts that you've been researching and trying to fix it... Eventually, I'm sure it'll be resolved one way or the other.
But until then, maybe we should just do some 1 on 1 time in the TA? I'm sure that would be more helpful than a couple of old films anyway.
I plan to be online tonight and tomorrow night from roughly 10pm until 2-3am (Central). Those are estimated times, I'm not sure what-all I've got going on at home yet. If those work for you, just log in and toss me a PM, and I'll hop to the TA with you. I've also got a few other people that may be doing that as well.
If those times don't work, let me know, and we can work something else out. Toss me a PM through the forums, or toss me an email through the trainers site...
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I'll have to go look at the rest of the fight to have an intelligent comment, but as I stated above the fight was really over before it truly began. A co-e Hog (well flown) will totally dominate a spitty (unless you have an exceptional spitty driver). The hog is the only plane that can not only E fight the spit but actually beat it in an extreme angles fight as long as the hog driver doesn't let the fight truly bottom out to the point he loses the ability to go vertical with the spit. The only way (IMO){other then a snap shot} the spit can/will win is if he can convert a-E fight to an angles fight on the deck and then use his superior climb & acceleration to convert back to an E fight on the deck. Dazy is an outstanding pony driver and a good all around stick. From my view he simply didnt have a solid grasp of what type of fight to fly and he's not the type to "run". The natural inclination to "stalk" the F4U is probably what did him in. I think it would be an interesting fight to see him vs Mt (or any good hog driver) in a pony instead of the spitfire. All he did "wrong" in the spitty is 100% correct in the pony...
Definitely a better fight strategy for his pony, but still too much horizontal separation in my eyes. I've fought him a few times when he was in P51's and F4U's, where he started with an alt advantage. The fights played out very much the same. The problem I see is that in his caution, he allows me to turn it into a tail-chase, which eventually leads to very similar E-states. With a pony, that's not terrible, because he's still behind me. I'll lose E when I turn, and he can zoom up. In an F4U, I'm going to turn it back into a merge of sorts, where he has no significant advantage. Generally, though, IIRC, I dodge and draw him into a rolling scissors, made all that much easier (in my eyes anyway) because his E-advantage is reduced, and all I need to do is reverse the angles-advantage.
To me, it's not an efficient use of an E-advantage to loiter behind me until it's squandered. To start with E and angles, and trade it for just angles...
I'll look for films, but i suspect they're too old for the viewer.
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I can be on then. was up all night and just woke up. I have been working with BigRat but he says he has taught me all he knows :aok Somehow I am not so sure because he still out turns me most of the time And TC sent me his head position files then went and hurt himself.
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I can be on then. was up all night and just woke up. I have been working with BigRat but he says he has taught me all he knows :aok Somehow I am not so sure because he still out turns me most of the time And TC sent me his head position files then went and hurt himself.
Well, I can see it from BigRat's position. He very well may have reached a point where he just doesn't know how to take you further. That exact same thing happens to me all the time.
I can feel like I teach someone "all I know", and still beat them in a fight. One of the things I've noticed is that it's actually extremely difficult for me to teach someone to kill me. I'll show them the "chinks in my armor", but at the same time, in an actual fight, I'm extremely aware of those chinks myself, and protect against attacks on them... It's even worse when, for example, I teach someone how to kill me in a particular plane. As in, when in a 109G14, do this... Now, in an MA fight, when I see the 109G14 icon, what do you think I'm looking for? And when a second or two later, I see the beginning of that move, how dangerous is it for that pilot to continue on with what is now a "predictable" fight? It's almost like I've seen the others teams play-book...
I'm quick to realize when someone is using my own "stuff" against me, and shift into a slightly different fight.
Teaching someone is also the best way (IMO) to really learn something yourself. You'll think you know it all, and then a student will ask a simple question for which you have no answer. That forces you to go and learn some more. And, while teaching something, you may find that what you thought were "the" answers, don't really pan out under scrutiny. You're forced to look at something from a lot of different perspectives. You get a depth of knowledge on a subject by teaching it that I've seldom reached by just "learning" it.
A lot of my training is more a matter of discovering what you're doing to allow me to kill you, and then helping you avoid those things, while teaching you to take advantage of better options. Something as simple as rolling left when you should have rolled right, can make a big difference. Helping you understand why doing that makes a big difference is huge. I'm not so hot with a lot of the technical terms/aspects of ACM. I'm much more of a "red-neck" trainer. I explain things as I see them myself, even if I don't know all of the big words, hehe!
Killing me in a fight will still probably (er, hopefully) still be pretty difficult, but killing many of the others in the MA will be much easier... When I run into my students in the MA, I recognize right away that they're "dangerous" (but not that they're one of "mine"). As such, they immediately draw a huge amount of my effort. I always go after whomever I deem as the biggest threat, and try to kill them as quickly as I can. That often leads to me feeling like I've been a little "overly harsh" when I fight a student... I build their confidence in the TA, and then take it away in the MA. I'm not sure how to avoid that. My attack on someone I see as dangerous is much more intense than on someone I see as average, or "new".
And that leads me back to my fight with Dazycutr. I'm guessing he "knew" he was fighting either me or Saber, and was more cautious as a result. That caution is what initially let me build my E, and set up the fight. There's a fine line between too cautious, and too reckless. Both will get you killed.
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Normally my focus is/was to try and identify misconceptions or add a fundamental building block. If we look at Dazy as an example you and I both feel the excessive horizontal separation is the biggest weakness in his flying style. So is this a result of a misconception or a lack of fundamental 3 dimensional awareness? In one case he's attempting to do something he feels is "right" in the other he just hasn't taken the next logical step in the progression. This plays out in shaping a fight that creates succeeding +E merge like situations and an ever decreasing window of opportunity vs actually seizing control of the fight from a position of advantage. If I see 2 or 3 fights devolve along the same lines I'll immediately begin focusing on what the trainee is thinking at the very beginning of the encounter. I think this plays very strongly to your comments in the sense that in the TA your role is to teach. Accordingly your offering a series of well defined looks and counters, your not trying to fly easy....but you are trying to teach. Now in the MA your trying to kill the other guy, the greater you perceive the threat the more aggresive your actions will be. If you have the edge you exploit it. If at a disadvantage you'll do everything you can to entice a decisive encounter quickly...better to fight a 1 on 1 at a disadvantage NOW then get dragged into a fight that turns into a 1 on 3 or 4. So everything is a bit cleaner, tighter and more lethal because of the respect you have for opponent based on the tells. In effect the guy you've been teaching lights the early warning threat detector and gets your best stuff from the git go....
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I still haven't won a rolling scissors fight. I have changed a little in the -1a to dropping 2 notchs of flaps and cutting to 1/4 throttle on the top then pulling the flaps back in on the way down but always get beat. not sure what to look for or which way to point the nose or what to look at to know i am making progress. I don't know if it is throttle manipulation of if my rolls aren't tight enough or loose enough or what.
Flushed,
(hope I'm not hijacking this thread too much :lol), I don't know if what I was doing with ya last night helped or not. The one thing to keep in mind is that in a rolling scissors the idea is to have the opponent overshoot in front of your guns. There is also a fine window in which a rolling scissors can be escaped, at a certain point the E states will be too low and it's a fight to the death (first mistake dies). Last night when we were practicing and we actually got into a rolling scissors, you'll notice the fight started off pretty even, and the longer it went the more advantage I got. How was I doing this? I was doing almost all of my turning in the verticle part of the fight and I was gaining my E back when I was nose down. AS I would start pulling up I would throttle way back 1/4 throttle or maybe less and full flaps, I would throw in the rudder hard to help my rotation over the top. When I got the angle I wanted, I would relax the controls a bit and come down for the lower part of the "barrel", and pick up some speed as I acclerated down. On the downward angle I would open the throttle back up and maybe pull in a little flap (1 or 2 notches). This I would repeat until I was behind you. In a rolling scissors with a hog that big rudder is probably your best friend. A good way to practice for rolling scissors in a hog is practicing low alt, low speed rolls using your rudder. The low alt will force you to keep it in plane (same altitude), and try it at ever decreasing speeds. You'll find at very low speeds, you'll have to use that rudder to get rotation in time before smacking the ground or at least dropping a lot of alt. So two things I think you need to work on is more flaps over the top and get that big rudder into the equation.
On a seperate note, when I downloaded Mtnman's film it wouldn't play for me either (crashed). So I saved it to another file and open up my AH viewer,and dragged the film into the viewers film file. Then it worked.
Flushed the important thing is to remember is this game is hard, so don't get frustrated.
:salute
BigRat
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Flushed,
On a seperate note, when I downloaded Mtnman's film it wouldn't play for me either (crashed). So I saved it to another file and open up my AH viewer,and dragged the film into the viewers film file. Then it worked.
Flushed the important thing is to remember is this game is hard, so don't get frustrated.
:salute
BigRat
wgmount = Flushed in game? I was looking for the wrong guy on the Roster last night, hehe!
When I download films, I never even put them into my films or filmviewer folders. I just download them to My Documents and double-click them to play.
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From what I saw, and nothing wrong with this, I saw alot of extending in the intial. I would have pressured him into getting him into trying to pick me, and that's were I would have eventually got it to were I want it and won. It's a risk, but if you have a good enough technique, you can force shots that are not at all favorable, and to the point were he has no shot at all. Versus a spit, your favorable fight would be in the turn fight, slow and flaps extended. In this fight, if the guy knew what he was doing (No offense) he had all the cards, the way you were fighting him. He could have roped you and he could have finished you very quickly, he chose to dive and make the big mistake as to letting you get the E.
If I were spit, I would be fighting with the what I had, and that's E and alt. I would push him down and try to get him to rope were then it would be easy kill. F4U's are one of the biggest targets in the game IMO, and it would be rather easy to hit. If he dosn't go for the rope, I would get him going up with you fighting him. F4U's have a low E retention, and you can get it to your advatange rather quickly, if you just maintain your E.
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When i first singed into the game I was wgmount and signed up for the forums that way. Some reason I was banned from logging into the forums, without ever posting a thing, and was trying to get some help. I got mad instead of calling support and cancelled my account. I went about 2 days and missed getting to play and called support and they let me into the forums but my wgmount account could no longer be used. I liked to fly in the DA and from the air that lake looks like a big toilet and I ended up getting shot down into it every night so I became Flushed.
I think it helped a little BigRat but it's gonna take a lot of practice. Got into a rolling scissors tonight with AKAK in his p38 and me in a jug. He got shot down before I could see the results but it lasted about 4 turns and that is 2 longer than they have been lasting. One of these days I'll win one to be sure.
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Mtnman,
First thanks for all the great work on the BBS and in the TA. Very motivational for a new guy like me that gets tired of getting killed so much (AH is my first flight sim of any sort and I started in June). It keeps me hanging on hoping that I'll turn the tables some day.
I am a dedicated F4U guy and I have 2 comments/questions based on things said in this thread that also have been said in some others and I can't quite understand them.
First...Mechanic said and many times I have heard that the F4U turns better than the Spit 16 (and others) at medium to high speeds. I must be doing something wrong because I can't seem to duplicate it. I used Badboy's calculator to measure sustained turn speeds for the F4U-1A and the Spit 16. This of course had to be measured in a flat turn. Both aircraft were measured at a steady 350MPH with 75% fuel and at 5k'. The 1A at 350MPH had a sustained turn rate of 3.1 degrees per second and a radius of 9477ft. The Spit had a sustained turn rate of 4.2 degrees per second and a radius of 7026ft. I will add that the F4U did this on military power and the Spit had to use WEP. After the Spit ran out of WEP the highest speed it could maintain in a turn was about 320MPH. This is all in a flat turn of course and the Corsair is supposed to be used in the vertical(the Spixteen rolls well and goes vertical too)....Still I can't understand the comments about it being a better "mid/high speed turning aircraft" than the Spit and others.
Second... The zoom of the F4U-1A is great but I did some other measurements offline where I compare the zoom of the F4U-1A to the Spit 16. Both aircraft were level at 350MPH (again spit w/Wep F4U no Wep) at 5k'. For both aircraft I used a 2g pull initially and then settled right down to maintain a 1g climb into the sun. The F4U zoomed from 5k' to 9.7k'(Wep added 100' to the climb). The Spit zoomed from 5k' to about 10.3k'. I repeated this a couple of times.
I don't know if this is enough information to go on or not. It seems the consensus of responders to this thread feel that the F4U should given equal e states(and pilot skill) be able to handle the Spit 16. I'd like to believe that as well... I'm just not able to do it yet.
Constructive comments and thoughts are greatly appreciated.
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Noah17,
If you look at the raw numbers the spit16 has almost all the advantage. Things like zoom climb and control surface authority are hard to measure and normally can't be found on any table. Spits have a major weaknesses that hogs have a major strengths in, usefull flaps, and the ability to kill speed. Fights don't stay at 300+ for very long normally. Once that fight gets down to 250 the hogs flaps will have it out turning the spit, and the hog can get down to this speed very quickly. Use this to your advantage. Smart spit drivers, make the hog fight up, using their superior climb and acceleration to maintain there E while they bleed the hogs. As a hog driver you want the spit to come down and turn fight ya.
As far as the zoom climb goes. Zoom climb is pretty much a product of inertia which has a lot do do with the weight of an aircraft. For example I can out zoom climb a hog with an A20 given equal speeds. Just think of it this way for an example. Take a bowling ball and a golfball at equal initial speed and roll them both up an equal slope, which will climb higher. The bowling ball obviously. I'm thinking your zoom climb test, while valid in it's parameters, isn't a true zoom climb test as we are referring to it here. When I refer to a zoom climb I'm thinking an almost verticle climb, eg trying to rope someone, or trying to climb up someone's rope. Given a gentler slope, the spit's better power to weight and accleration come into play.
:salute
BigRat
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Mtnman...
A couple things here-
Sustained turns vs the spits- while in an F4U, I really don't want any part of. They ALL come around the circle quicker on me. Maybe I could deal with a spit1? I'm not sure I've ever tried.
Numbers- when it comes to the "numbers" such as degrees per second, radius measurements, etc, I get bored too quickly to pay attention to them. That's a weakness on my part, and since I don't "know the numbers" I can't teach them either. I didn't even know the top speed of the Spit16 until last week, and now I've forgotten it again. As bad as it sounds, I don't even know the top speed for ANY of the F4U's. Or the FPM climb speeds. Or the acceleration times, the turn diameter, etc. Extend that to say that if I don't know/pay attention to the numbers for the only plane I fly, what are the chances I know any of the numbers for any of the planes in AH? I'll probably take some flak for that, but it's the truth. I deal with loads of numbers in other aspects of my life, I have no interest in doing that here.
The only numbers I pay attention to in the spit vs F4U fight is what I think of as a "matched" speed of 350 for the Spit16, and 300 for the rest of the spits. And I only know that due to trial and error. The way I use those numbers is when I have a spit diving onto my six, I know that if I can drag them until we're both level, and he's no longer catching me (no closure, but he's not necessarily falling behind- out of gun range though), I can go into a shallow climb for all the spits at 300mph, and 350 for a Spit16, and they can't keep up AND climb with me. They can only do one or the other. So if I go into a shallow climb using those speeds as a minimum, if he tries to follow my climb, he'll fall behind. And if he stays level to "keep up", I'll gain alt on him. If he follows me up, I'll wait for him to start slowing/falling behind and rope him. If he stays level I'll just get a little above him and roll in for an attack. You can reverse that too. I don't have to be in front of him to do that, as in the film with Dazy at the end, it works fine if I'm behind him too... There's no way I'll follow him up for a slow-speed climb, 'cause I'll get roped. Gimme some speed though, and I'll play along!
That type of fight isn't terribly exciting for me though, even though it's the style I used against Dazycutr in that film, so I don't use it more than a few times/week. It's definitely in my bag of tricks though, so I use it here and there, sometimes just on a whim because I haven't done it in a while. In a multi vs me, though, I'll use it much more often. 1v1, I'll normally do more of what bosco describes. I'll go under the spit hoping to get him to attack me, and I'll kill him when he overshoots...
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High speed turns spit vs hog- Numbers again... I don't know them. Experience in the spit? I don't have enough to matter. I flew them years ago, lost interest in them, and just decided to get good in my all-time favorite. What I do have is experience fighting them, and experience watching them real close while doing that. For one, they look like they "lock up" or "get tight" when they get real fast. IMO, 350 isn't real fast. I can fly faster than that in a climb... How fast is fast? I'm not sure, but I could log in and find out. Numbers again... I don't watch the airspeed indicator all that much (I do in certain maneuvers, though). In a dive with a spit, if I'm behind him, I can more or less always match his turn if he tries to get out of my way. And I can match his roll, or exceed it. That said, I generally won't bother to match his turn if he tries to get out of my way. I'll just zoom up above him and dive in again. I'll let him kill his E on a sharp turn, save mine, and take the quick kill. If he's behind me in dive, he'll reach a point where he can't roll with me, so just doing a subtle scissors left and right gets him out of sync and I can then pull up or to the side and he can't follow. High speed, I'm able to roll and change direction better than he can. I can also crank back on the elevator at speeds where if he tries to do that his wings pop off. That's what I think of as turning better than the spit at high speed. But I'll never try to turn in circles with him... How fast? I'm not creaking yet, but I'm dang fast!
When it comes to "turning" with a spit, I don't look at things from an "equal" perspective. Actually, if things look equal I'll probably break out, extend 1.5K or so, and "reset" the fight. An equal "fair" start is fine, but I quickly want to form some differences that I can work with. The last thing I want is to be in, or stay in an "equal" 300mph vs 300mph, 250mph vs 250mph, etc fight. I'd much rather fight from a "disadvantaged "state than an "equal" state. What I capitalize on is the difference between our speeds. There are pro's and con's to be being either slower than OR faster than your opponent. I try to capitalize on the strengths of my situation, and make him suffer for the weaknesses of his own. If I'm slower than the spit, I have little choice but to try to turn with him. If I'm faster, I can basically do whatever I want. What I like to do is draw him into a chase, and since he knows I can get away, I want him to think he has to chase hard to catch me. Then, while he's fast, I'll turn to the side, give him some closure, and force the overshoot. I'm bleeding speed, coming closer to my "best" turn speed, while he's above his own best turn speed. This will allow me to turn inside him. Not because I turn better than him, but because I'm at a better speed for doing that than he is. Not only that, but as he tries to turn tight, into what he perceives as a strength for his plane, he slows down in front of my guns. If he doesn't want to play that game, fine, I can just extend, build my advantage, and force an attack. Now I'll be at a speed and probable alt advantage. Due to my greater speed, I will not be trying to out turn him... If unable to get a kill on him after a few passes, it's almost always possible to draw him into a fast chase again, and go for the overshoot again. It often works even better at this point, because he's perceiving that I've lost my alt/E advantage and am shifting into "desperate" mode (which I'm not).
The trick is just to not allow him a decent guns solution in this process. Being a little slow behind him isn't bad- as he turns to reverse I can just drop my nose a few degrees and extend, taking away his initial speed advantage. When you drop speed to out-turn the spit one of two things must happen, or you're in trouble. One, kill him quick. Within a turn or two. Or two, have an exit available. You won't really need to escape, but you need to be able to draw the fight fast again. Speed up, slow down. Speed up, slow down. The hog drops speed much quicker/easier than the spit, and that's what gives you the window to out-turn him. It's also what gets you killed until you figure it out... One key factor is to not allow the spit to get and stay faster than you. Another is to not allow yourself to get too slow with him in a position to use his better acceleration. That will lead to the spit staying faster than you...
One thing about numbers here... I don't know how fast he's going, ever. But I'm very good at being able to tell general things, like "faster than me" or "slower than me". Or he's too fast to..." or "He's too slow to..." This "watching him" process relies heavily on me knowing my current state, and current abilities ACM-wise, and weighing that against his "faster than " or "slower than" me state. I also rely a lot on being almost in a bad position, but not quite. A position where he'll pull for a shot he can't make. That waste of his time and energy will kill him. An example is being "too close" to the spit, where he can't possibly turn tight enough to get his nose on you, but too close for him not to try...
Zooms- the "equal" thing comes back. I ain't gonna try to out-zoom someone with an equal E-state or speed. So why would I care who can zoom higher? From what I've seen, apart from maybe the P38, none of the planes have a "huge" advantage here. Two techniques come to play here. One (me behind him), watch the film, as I zoom for the kill. Think "closure". Will I zoom with the spit? Sure, but only if the conditions will grant me success... (Why even try otherwise?) Following the spit, I'm catching him (see the "-" on the icon?). Catching him in the zoom in this case is a foregone conclusion.
The second technique (me in front) is to get him behind me, fly fast enough to initially see a "+D800" so I know I'm faster (pulling away) than him, and then quickly (quick as in "soon" so he doesn't catch on, not "sharply" or suddenly") but subtly swing my nose up a bit to "hide" the fact that I'm faster (make the "+" fall off the icon...) Now he'll think we're equal speed, and that'll give him some (false) hope that he'll catch me in the zoom. Gradually bring the nose up to vertical, making sure he must follow your flightpath (see that in trails-enabled films)- do not allow him to turn inside your flightpath (cut the corner) or his shorter flightpath will allow him to catch you, even if he's slower... Done "right" you'll both be vertical, with him only able to maintain equal spacing (stay at D800) or fall behind (you faster speed will show up as a "+" in the icon again). This is "out-zooming", but without overall zoom performance being a real issue. For that matter, I can out-zoom planes that should out-zoom me, or be caught by planes that "couldn't possibly do that", depending on the exact set of variables in play at that precise moment. I can out-zoom this guy right now, but he'll out-zoom me 2 seconds from now... Or vice versa...
The best information you can have in a fight is exactly what is going on right now. You get that by watching your opponent very intently. With that information in hand, it doesn't matter what your turn radius is at 317.5mph....
SA will allow you to win the fight, or get killed, more than anything else. Especially in the F4U.
I'm good with numbers, and I think very analytically generally. I just don't give a hoot about numbers in the game. Call that a "chink in my armor". I zoom climb against far too many planes for me to know how well they all zoom, and whether they zoom best at a certain speed. Same goes for turn radius, degrees per second, whatever... I fly by "feel" and "view". Can I out-turn this guy? Yes! But wait, is he holding even? Pulling ahead? Drats! Yes! Stop this tactic, switch to plan B! Even having my opponent "hold even" in a turn is enough to trigger my "switch tactic" button.
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... for a new guy like me that gets tired of getting killed so much (AH is my first flight sim of any sort and I started in June). It keeps me hanging on hoping that I'll turn the tables some day.
Keep at it! I was exactly where you are now, not long ago...
Look up a trainer, or toss me a PM...
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Noah17,
If you look at the raw numbers the spit16 has almost all the advantage.
Given a gentler slope, the spit's better power to weight and accleration come into play.
The poor spit... Once you learn how to beat them it doesn't even seem like a fair match-up, hehe!
The gentler slope idea doesn't always pan out. If it's "too" gentle, the hog takes the cake.
Two planes- one has a top speed "level" of 350 mph. The second goes 410 "level". Put them side by side, or one in front of the other, both at full throttle... Now, have them both fly at 350mph... One stays level, one climbs... The hog will climb at 350, the spit can't... This is how the hog out-climbs the spit.
This is how Dazycutr died, and why he complained about my "unlimited E". He tried to climb away from me, but stayed too shallow.
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Mtnman that's a lot of effort in helping me out I really appreciate it thanks!
Big Rat thanks to you as well.
Great points I had not thought of.
While in the zoom or in any other maneuver....Do you do anything to keep your opponent in view behind the "head plate" of the F4U? I lose track a lot and find myself wasting time and losing E trying to see if my moves are working for me or if they've helped at all. The book "In Persuit" preaches to learn flying backward......I've done a little offline but.....drones don't shoot at you much.
:salute
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Mtnman that's a lot of effort in helping me out I really appreciate it thanks!
Big Rat thanks to you as well.
Great points I had not thought of.
While in the zoom or in any other maneuver....Do you do anything to keep your opponent in view behind the "head plate" of the F4U? I lose track a lot and find myself wasting time and losing E trying to see if my moves are working for me or if they've helped at all. The book "In Persuit" preaches to learn flying backward......I've done a little offline but.....drones don't shoot at you much.
:salute
I do whatever it takes to keep an eye on him, but with minimal control deflection to minimize drag... The more deflection needed to keep track of him, the more speed advantage you need. If you don't have enough speed for the rope, you don't. Roping is an "option". Kepping track of the bad guy isn't.
I do it like this- I have my views mapped to a HAT switch, and look up mapped to a pinkie switch, so I can do all my views "one-handed". With my other hand, I have a "rocker" switch on my throttle mapped to "move head left/right".
I then adjust/save the best views I can get, but with my head centered left/right on the seat/shroud. Now, while checking six, I just use my left index finger to push the rocker left/right, to see my opponent. I don't like my view saved with my head to one side, because it waste's too much time (IMO) to slide my head left if my view is saved to the right... Once my climb angle is achieved, I often roll slightly to increase my view of my opponent. You can't effectively check six without rolling.
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Greetings Big Rat,
I've been trying to use flaps against the Spit 16 as I get just under 250 MPH.....I'm still having trouble. I can't out turn the 16. I get to 250 and drop one notch my turn tightens but it doesn't seem to be enough. I drop a second notch and I'm slower now and turning much tighter but maybe I'm turning at an even rate at best. I drop a third to see if that will help. Now I'm getting slow around 170's or so. The Spit starts to come around on my 6.
Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?
Thanks,
:salute
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Greetings Big Rat,
I've been trying to use flaps against the Spit 16 as I get just under 250 MPH.....I'm still having trouble. I can't out turn the 16. I get to 250 and drop one notch my turn tightens but it doesn't seem to be enough. I drop a second notch and I'm slower now and turning much tighter but maybe I'm turning at an even rate at best. I drop a third to see if that will help. Now I'm getting slow around 170's or so. The Spit starts to come around on my 6.
Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?
Thanks,
:salute
It sounds like you're talking about flat-turning, as in going around a circle with the spit on the opposite side?
You won't win that one with any regularity. You won't win that fight based on plane vs plane performance. You're making a big mistake fighting the spit in that manner, and your only real hope is that he'll make bigger mistakes than that... The flaps will tighten your turn radius, but that won't make up for the turn-rate advantage, and acceleration advantage of the spit. He should be able to come around on your six. Dropping flaps in that situation, and with that goal, is basically suicide.
You'll need to use your flaps to beat the spit, but that doesn't mean you should drop them, and get into flat turning vs the spit. Or that you should drop them and leave them deployed for more than a few seconds.
Flaps (in my mind) are seldom "neutral" in effect. They're either helping you, or they're hurting you. They're hurting you if you have them deployed when you shouldn't. And they're not helping you if you have them up when you need them down, either. They'll help you turn tighter, which is good. They'll slow you down, which isn't always good in a fight.
It sounds like you're unintentionally using them as brakes. You're using them in a situation where you experience their full drag effect, but the radius-tightening effect doesn't matter. It's ok for the spit to fly a larger radius turn than you. He'll still beat you because he can get around that circle quicker than you, even if it is bigger... To put it into a different perspective, he might even be able to ease off on the elevator, and intentionally fly a larger-radius circle at a faster speed, and come around on you even quicker. In short, he could out-turn you without even trying to turn as hard... That's how big of an advantage he has in that situation.
So, there's two answers (at least) to your question. You're probably using flaps when you shouldn't, or how you shouldn't. And you're turning flat (and sustained) against a spit.
So how do you fix that? One, in a flat circle type fight with a spit, only use flaps if it will give you a kill shot, right now. And don't stay in that flat circle. For that matter, you shouldn't even enter it unless you can do it in such an advantageous position that you'll be able to kill him right away, or be able to leave it at will, without the spit being able to chase you down (because you're too slow). If you get your kill shot, but miss it, gets those flaps up and get out of the circle! Every second you're in that circle and the spit isn't dead, his advantage on you is building, and yours is deteriorating.
Take that a step further- you've just entered a circle, flat-turning with a spit, at nearly equal speed. He's 1/5 of the way around the circle, in front of you. In other words, you're behind him. BUT, you can't get a shot, because you can't pull enough lead to hit him, even with flaps. Guess what? You're already in big trouble. You need to get out of that type of fight, right now. The moment you cannot gain in advantage in this fight, you begin losing it. Every fraction of a second hurts you more. You need to be thinking of a different option, and put it into effect. If you've dropped flaps, you probably can't extend, because you can't accelerate quick enough. Even though you're still "behind" the spit in this turn, I'd be looking at an overshoot option already. He may be in front of you right now, but in a few seconds he'll be behind you. Start setting him up right away... By the time he's halfway around the circle, and everything looks "equal", you're about done.
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all this HOG info is making itch, good read and got me thinking of getting back in AH sooner than i planed.
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Noah17,
Probably the best thing you can do is get with a trainer. A couple of merges with a trainer can be worth pages of this stuff (not that this is bad at all, it's very good), but as I'm sure you know, reading how to do it and doing it in practice are often two different things. Fortunately for you, we probably have more good hog trainers then any other aircraft. I'd even go as far as suggest hitting all of them, Each one of us I'm sure trains a little different and have our own theories on ACM and what works. The more knowledge base you get your information from the better all around hog pilot you will become. Just send whichever trainer you want to work with a PM and what times you are available, and I'm sure any of us will be glad to help you out :aok
:salute
BigRat