Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vermillion on December 07, 2000, 07:09:00 AM
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Just thought I would share a little knowledge with the Luftwobble contingent, since "open mouth, insert jackboot" seems to be a common ailment lately. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Yesterday, after flying my Yak-9U against a pair of well known Luftwobble pilots in 109G10's, and some friendly bantering on channel 1, I was informed that I was:
Luftwobble: "You Turbo Laser Hispano Dweeb !!" for flying my Yak-9U
My reply was that "You must not know your aircraft very well, do you?"
Luftwobble: "I KNOW my aircraft"
FYI, the Yak-9U is armed with a ShVak 20mm cannon, which is very similar in capabilities to your own MG151/20 cannon. Except that the Yak carries even less ammo than the 109 does. Not the Hispano 20mm you all are so fond of complaining about.
Would you like a little Heinz57 with that Jackboot? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Daimler Benz !
Enough said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I love the Yak. Wih it had more ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
-Westy
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Verm I thought you were flying Zeke only (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(J/K) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Westy, you would not love the Yak if it had more ammo.
Some see it as a great achievement in Russian aircraft industry, and as the ultimate dogfighter. Add another cannon or two and some ammo and it would be just another dog in the air, losing most of it's edge because of the added weight.
Somewhat sad to think that these Russian pilots had to go out and battle the Luftwaffe with just enough ammo for a pass or two and then scurry for home. Of course their advantage was in numbers, same philosophy for ground troops. Get enuff Yaks together and you won't need lots of ammo.
fscott
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Definately a good point FScott. Sometimes when I'm thinking about these planes in an online MA context the real life reasoning and implications get forgotten about.
-Westy
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Ok, this is really bugging me Verm. I never EVER said Turbo laser hispano Dweeb, first of all, I thought you were the spitfeure.
Second, The other 109G10 flew ONE pass and then he flew 15 miles to the East to join the fight with a couple of your and his/my country men.
That left ME allone VS you (Yak obviously, appologize for thinking you were a spit) and the. I was using the WELL KNOWN tactic Boom and Zoom wich was the primary tactic used by the LW during the war aswell, When I finally decided to run away was because I had a 25k F4u inbound my position so that would have left me outnumbered by 3 - 1 wich isn't a very nice number considering I was low on fuel and had lower alt then the F4u.
I do KNOW my plane, specially the 109 G10 wich I have flown for the last couple of tours.
I can understand your frustation because you and your friend never got a shot at me.
I can allso understand that you wanted me to go down and turnfight you in your Yak with your spit friend since BOTH the Yak and Ttge spit manuvers better then the 109 G10.
If you can't handle people who B&Z you really shouldn't fly AH at all.
Btw, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT "Turbo laser hispano dweeb!!!" FROM????????
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
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Wilbus, ok maybe it was "Hispano Turbo Laser Dweeb" instead of "Turbo Laser Hispano Dweeb", but regardless it was those 4 words.
BnZ all you want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I was just having fun with you, like I told you I was.
I just thought it was hilarious when a Yak driver is called a Hispano dweeb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Fscott, not necessarily in regards to your post to Westy. There are versions of the Yak-9UT (Our Yak-9U with different armament options, like the difference between a 109G6 and a 109G6/R6) that are much heavier armed with relatively little performance degradation.
For instance one is the x3 20mm armed version, which uses 3 B-20 20mm cannons. These replace the ShVak cannon, and x2 USB MG's, but since the B-20 cannons are around half the weight of the ShVak and the same as the USB MG's, performance is very close. The B-20 cannon is essentially a up caliber USB MG. Ballistically the B-20 and the ShVak are identical. (Another example is the F4U-1C and F4U-1D)
Another option is the version with x1 NS-23 23mm cannon, and x2 B-20 cannons mentioned above.
Both options would increase the Yak's deadliness significantly, with little degradation in performance. If you want I can post the side by side flight test performance data for the Yak-9U and Yak-9UT that I have seen.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
FYI, the Yak-9U is armed with a ShVak 20mm cannon, which is very similar in capabilities to your own MG151/20 cannon. Except that the Yak carries even less ammo than the 109 does. Not the Hispano 20mm you all are so fond of complaining about.
<sigh>Verm, that is an understatement at best, and most probably just an outright lie. You know as well as anyone that although in real life this may be true, in AH HTC has lowered the lethality of the guns on the LuftWaffle plane by at least 50% because, of course, of the conspiracy.
Please try and refrain from your Allied Opportunist propoganda, and stop denying the fact that LuftWaffle pilots are just superior!
SOB
Oregon FDB Chapter of The LuftWaffle Flyers Association
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If SOB would drop the second "l" in luftwaffe, I'd recruit him.
The arrogance bit; I am sure we can teach him proper superiority. He has some but needs more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
while(!bishRookQueue.isEmpty() && loggedOn()){
30mmDeathDIEDIEDIE(bishRookQueue.removeFront());
System.out.println("LW pilots are superior");
myPlane.performVictoryRoll();
}
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Originally posted by fscott:
Westy, you would not love the Yak if it had more ammo.
Some see it as a great achievement in Russian aircraft industry, and as the ultimate dogfighter. Add another cannon or two and some ammo and it would be just another dog in the air, losing most of it's edge because of the added weight.
Somewhat sad to think that these Russian pilots had to go out and battle the Luftwaffe with just enough ammo for a pass or two and then scurry for home. Of course their advantage was in numbers, same philosophy for ground troops. Get enuff Yaks together and you won't need lots of ammo.
fscott
I don't post much these days, but anything VVS always catches my red eye (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ...
It's true that by mid-1944 the VVS had real good odds on the Luftwaffe on the order of 10:1. Still, I thought it might be interesting to post this excerpt from a book I have on Yakovlev aircraft by Gunston.
"A large dogfight occurred on 16th June 1944. Both sides built up their forces, with the result that 18 Yak-3s opposed 24 German fighters, and 15 Luftwaffe aircraft were shot down for the cost of one Soviet fighter destroyed and one damaged. Next day, Luftwaffe activity over that section of the front had virtually ceased."
Oh, and that comment by fscott about numbers. Hehe, I almost want to expand on that simplistic statement, but, well, I'm just an old, jaded VVS driver in the flight sim world, and it's just not worth it anymore (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 12-09-2000).]
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Who needs lots of ammo or guns when you can have lighter and far more better plane, with what you can have one good aim and shoot down the enemy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yak-9 is one super plane, what comes to performance
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Yaks came in many variants - there were Yaks armed with 2 or even 3 20mm in the nose. The aerodynamics of the plane didn't change as the cannon were hidden under the cowling, the weight increase was not that great either, certainly, the overhead was not nearly as great as addition of two underwing cannon pods for 109s.
The design by itself was better than that of 109s in the terms of handling characteristics, visibility from cockpit, speed and climbrate below 18k and potential for modernization. While newer 109 variants only made that aircraft more sluggish and decreased its thrust-to-weight ratio the opposite was observed in the Yak product line. It's not surprising as the Soviet aerospace engineering produced some of the best aircraft designs in preceding 30-s, the first in the world all-metal monoplane fighter I-16, the first in the world truly strategic bomber aviation (TB-3s). An impressive number of world records were set. If it hadn't been for Stalin's paranoia and the purges of 1937, that momentum wouldn't have to be regained at great cost in the early 40-s.
It's a myth that Soviet fighter aviation won because of greater numbers. For example, during air offensive on Moscow, Nazi Germany had numerical superiority and qualitative superiority (VVS had mostly MiG-3s and I-16s at that time), yet that air battle was lost by Luftwaffe.
As a matter of fact, if you read memoirs of the fliers themselves you will see that the opposite was quite often true. 2nd top ranking Allied ace, Alexandr Pokryshkin, mentions many times that he was asking HQ to increase the number of planes dispatched on CAPs from 4 to at least 8 or 12 during Kuban battles of spring of 1943 where his 16th GIAP often had to fight numerically superior flights of 109s.
I have seen a great number of descriptions of documented engagements in which Soviet fighter pilots won while being outnumbered.
Hopefully, more and more of them will be published in English to decrease the level of ignorance some westerners have about that war.
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"While newer 109 variants only made that aircraft more sluggish and decreased its thrust-to-weight ratio."
I believe you mean lift-to-weight. Its power ratio was on a steady increase through most of the models.
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The move from 109G2 to 109G6 actually decreased the thrust to weight ratio.
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Snefens,
Actually though the G-6 had a better engine than the G-2, the increased weight and drag of the G-6 could not be compensated, resulting in a 'messer' that had less power loading than a G-2. I think if you compare power loading of both the G-2 and G-6 you'll see the difference.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Originally posted by RAM:
The move from 109G2 to 109G6 actually decreased the thrust to weight ratio.
...Depends on which engine/injectionsystem that G-6 you are talking about has...
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ok, so ONE 109 had worse power rating than its predescessor, and that is like Wmaker says only some variants of it.
IMO, saying that the power ratio went up is more correct than the opposite.
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I may be mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the most produced variant of the G-6 had an inferior power loading when compared to the average G-2.
Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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I'd say most G-6 would have had the same engine as the G-2; DB 605A-1.
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True that the G6 at first were a disapointment for the pilots.The plane were delivered to JG's in the Mediterranean area (..like Africa ;=) February 1943, first recorded loss was the G6 of Uffz. Opitz of 5/JG53 March 4 1943.Engine were the same as the previously flown G2's and G4's, only significant difference being new pair of MG 131's.
Its reasonable safe so say that late 1943 Field Conversion Sets for the G6 are out with MW50 (and GM1, and, and, and..), raising sea output from 1485hp to 1800hp (if memory serves me).
The whole idea of Field Conversion Sets is a stroke of genious, more so as the war goes by, stress on major assembly plants in the homeland is increasing.Down side is that it is diffucult to *prove* much now afterwards.The stuff were retrofitted at the units, and no central recordings were made of this.
Regarding the numerically situation on the east front I can only recommend you to read the new "Black Cross, Red Star" Vol 1.LW were down on numbers right from the start.The art is of course to create local superiority.. ;=)
danish
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When flying the Yak (and if HiTech actually model it's gun performance correctly) one has to bear in mind that the Yaks guns had a very high rate of fire. I think the Yak in AH has a decent enough ammo load, but (as was the case with Soviet training) you must make sure you can position yourself to get a clean shot.
As for the sluggishness of the 109 - that term must be seen as comparative. It was sluggish compared to the 109F, but not sluggish per se. Most sims tend to make the 109G-6 sluggish because they don't grasp the fact that the term 'sluggish' (or whatever) was made by LW pilots when they compared it to the earlier variants. This does not of course mean that the G6 was sluggish compared to everything else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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have any of you guys even flown the 109g6 lately?
trust me it aint sluggish in AH
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Agree with JG5_Jerry and Cit.
Compared to the AH G2 the G6 is of course a tad more heavy, but the punch is better (halleluja..), climb decent, and if you are used to the G10, the handling plesantly surprising.
Of curse it still isnt any killer by no means, and it certanly isnt any great escaper.So you have to choose wisely, and keep SA up.
AFAIR it has been shown by numbers earlier that our G6 is without MW50.Not surprisingly: it *is* among the slower planes.However it comes with the Galland panzer and Erla haube.Especially the latter was introduced "..at the end of 1943..".So I guess we have to pretend we have a 43/44 G6, but that we momentarily ran out of MW50 Conversion Sets ;=)
Just to link to the subject to this thread (better late than never):
How will a AH duel G6/Yak 9 go?
Well the Yak has the all important ace up its sleeve: it can disengage at will.Other than that I would expect a close duel, winner will be best pilot.Tactics will be similar for both: vertical E fighting with plenty of high yo-yo's and vertical scissors.However the Yak will have a slight edge here because of its more powerfull engine.Defensive there will be same strategies as well: both planes have realtivly weak armament and one can accept the bogie on ones six without too many fears.Tactics will then be to force overshoot.The G6 will have the slight edge here as it has a sligthly higher drag (at least that is my perception..) + at the point of throttle closure the Yak (on your six, remember) will often have substantly higher speed.The overshoot will then evolve in more vertical maneuvers.
All just IMO of course.
Hmm feel tempted to delete it all.This post might be overshoot for sure heh.
danish
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I doubt the Yak has more than the Gustavs 1475HP?
G-6 is in the same boat as the Spitfire F.IX - 1942 engine in the 1944 airframe. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Havnt got that much litterature about Soviet aircraft, however a seemingly competent book by William Green "Famous Fighters of the second World War" states that the M-107A engine of the Yak-9U provided 1620 hp for take off.
danish
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Danish - a friend and I tried out a G6 vs Yak H2H game several months ago. We eventually did get into a series of loops, and the Yak seemed to have slightly better energy retention. Which meant that after a while, he got enough time to just clip my right elevator, and after that I just couldn't get any edge over him, so he got me eventually. I think the firepower of both planes is good - if your gunnery skills are up to it. No ammo-chugging long bursts will get you anywhere (unless your target just flies straight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ). Both planes are my favourite in AH, but I do think all 109s after the F in all sims so far are a bit too unresponsive at normal speeds.
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Vv that Jerry.The (sligthly?) better E retention + the better thrust/weight ratio (have to be carefull here - hate numbers..) will - all things else being equal - give the Yak the upper hand eventually in the vertical fight.
But!The exact same features will give the G6 the advantage in a defensive forced overshoot situation.Off course if it is the Yak that overshoots from behind the G6 we will just enter a new round of the vertical dance, again with the Yak as slightly superior, but no room for errors .However if the situation in the intended forced overshoot is reversed (ie G6 on Yak's six) the situation will be somewhat more difficult for the Yak.Good E retention is a handicap here.
And this is the situation where the kill is most likely to happend: failure of intended forced overshoot!
But the ace up the sleeve: if the Yak reads the situation he will extend and seperate in time - most likely through a split es.
Using defensive maneuvers as a way to go offensive isnt that often seen in AH.Guess people have gotten used to either get the kill on the first offensive passes, or just let go.
Is of course linked to the multicannon birds.They are thirteen a dozen in the MA, and to think forced overshoot against a Chog or Nikki or Tiffie or... really tends to bring you on your toes.
danish - 43 and still cant spell
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 12-14-2000).]
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Interesting discussion, folks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regarding G-6 vs -9U, and overshooting, I'd like to contribute my experiences.
I've flown the Yak-9U a lot in AH, and before that the La-5FN. The planes I really like to meet up with are, of course, German: Bf 109 and Fw 190. After many such encounters in the MA, I must say that a Yak-9U has about as good rudder movement as a messer, even at low speeds.
Many of us are familiar with the unique evasive employed by 109 drivers, those hard vertical, low-speed rudder turns that look like a cross between a barrel roll and a yoyo. In a La-5FN it is difficult to follow this maneuver, but just possible. However, in a Yak-9U one can actually anticipate this maneuver, and through a combination of throttle and maneuver place a Yak in a parallel heading with such a 109. This often results in an advantageous trailing position on said 109 after about 2-3 passes.
The Yak-9U in AH really enjoys being 'yanked' around into hard maneuver, whether they be rudder turns, snap rolls, or anything at low speed. The stall boundary is very defined, and while the gap in between is not as wide as some aircraft, the Yak-9U responses enthusiastically to even modest stick or pedal input. Combining this with an excellent initial turn rate, a very good roll rate, great e-retention, and high top speed, the Yak-9U is quite a handful for an adversary.
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Vv that Leonid!
The G6 pilot certantly have to be on guard and break out of the (vertical) scissor dance before the yak gets on his 6.If that happens speed tends to be low, maneuverability restricted, and a deadly up-close blow will often be delt.
The break out will be a split es reaching for the 300 m/h before levelling out, and set up for the next intended overshoot.However if things get close the overshoot can be done also in the vertical, diving.
Apart from a slightly more responsiveless handling the G10 has a rather vicious torque when doing the slow speed scissors and web is on, however doing the close scissors is a matter of doing them at a slower speed than the bogie so you get behind him, and preferebly a little below (this is often seen in MA) - so web will only be applied for short bursts. In that regard the G6 handles the scissors better, but the brute force of the G10 gives it another little trick that (allmost) negates this: when the bogie starts to get behind - and perhaps a little lower - the G10 in the slow scissors, he can barrel roll with throttle around 33%: just to keep it handling.If done right the G10 will be somewhat lower and a little behind the bogie (read: Yak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).When applying Throttle + Web now, the bogie will be in a unpleasant situation, more so that he will not be able so see the G10 at once.
This can be done with the g6 also, but has to be timed more closely or it will just hang below, possibly in dire straights.
I agree with Leonid that there is something special about the LW/VVS duels you encounter in the arena
Planes are well matched, and fights will often be hard fought.
As I understand it East Front Terrain has been created through the Terrain Editor.Im still hoping for a HA setup, but havnt got that many illusions.HTC minimalistic "safty first" approach to the sim has brought them here.But I frankly dosnt expect much more.Why should they: at the moment they are No 1.
danis
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I'm waiting for 'IL-2 Sturmovik' to give me that true Eastern Front feeling - and I guess Leonid is too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Can't wait! 109F-2 vs Chaika fight, anyone??