Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: SgtPappy on January 03, 2010, 12:14:26 PM
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So we all know that the corner velocity of an aircraft translates to the tangential velocity an aircraft can achieve that gives it its best turn rate.
When in an energy fight, would it always be best to maintain corner velocity? Do most E-duels boil down to who maintains corner velocity best and by extension, energy (i.e. If you maintain corner velocity, do you maintain energy too)? I notice that maintaining a great turn rate helps in a vert rolling scissors and many other maneuvers.
If maintaing corner velocity is essential, how does one do it efficiently? Should I just avoid the urge to pull tonnes of G's in addition to using vertical maneuvers?
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I dont know anything about corner velocity, I know I can do certain things in my plane that he cant and I try to use them to get the best of him :aok :salute
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My take is that you manage relative position and performance. It's your relative corner velocity in comparison to your opponent viewed within the context of intent (both yours and his). Are you offensive or defensive? + or - E? Are you early in an engagement or already committed to the fight? Are you in a multi con environment or a pure 1 on 1? A lot of variables come into play. If you look at the very beginning of the film with the 2 spits you'll see a relatively high speed defensive turn vs the higher spit. The intent is to diminish his E advantage before I dive out...otherwise he'll just run me down. He's pulling more G's so relative E state closes up as he scrubs E, allowing me to then dive out with better results...
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Assuming it's an equal E duel situation. Of course, the one who hiccups first must capitalized upon.
The problem with me is that once I get into a fight, I'm often defensive. I initiate a rolling scissors or some out of plane maneuver so that they have to change their lift vector in order to get another shot. A lot of the time, though, I find myself out turned or otherwise dead when the enemy finds a good angle, almost miracurously.
I'm wondering, if I maintain corner velocity for most of the fight, would it be possible to find angles on him, using multiple pursuit styles? I notice I most often have the enemy in my sight when I'm looking straight up.
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Sometimes you need to fly not to loose. I think I've got a clip that might help show what I mean. I'll look for it....
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You mean I shouldn't fly with too little +G right?
Awesome! Alright, I'll watch that film when you've got it :aok
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I either didn't keep or didn't film the fight I was thinking of.
Lets review your comments for a second. There is no such thing as an "equal E" duel vs a good stick. He's either going to optimize for angles or E and he will not want to be even with you. Are we talking same plane dueling rules or an MA engagement...big difference. I'm much more effective in an MA encounter then I am in a duel. I also prefer to be in different planes. I'm looking for an exploitable advantage of some sort. Either way once your "defensive" you lost either angular advantage or E or both. I'd start right there and work with a trainer to get an evaluation of your tactics and your understanding of those tactics. My guess is that you've got a misconception or incomplete grasp of something relatively fundamental thats leading to the point your at...
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Perhaps after exams I can put in a month of training, but I've been saying that for months now :( Gots'ta have the monies. But you're right. In terms of even E, I mean of course at the beginning of the duel.
Fights encountered most often in the old H2H, when I duelled friends 1 on 1. Sometimes we flew the same aircraft as I believed that it acted as a sort of control variable when fighting. It made it easier to evaluate the loser's mistakes when we flew the same plane since, of course, a 109F can do anything the other guy's 109F can do, provided they have the same fuel load. Most of the time, being in the same plane, we would decend into fights in the weeds, trying to gain angles on each other. Everytime the duel became a TnB fight, I'd disengage and set up again.
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...of course, a 109F can do anything the other guy's 109F can do, provided they have the same fuel load.
But not necessarily at the same time, or at the same point in a fight.
A higher-E 109 can't do what the lower-E 109 can do right now. Or vice versa. At any point in a fight, unless you're just spinning around in a lufberry circle, each plane will generally be capable of doing subtly different things at a given point.
Another way to look at it... Both 109's are flying vertically at 250mph. One is nose-up, one is nose-down. They're are things at that moment that each plane can do, that the other can't. One can accelerate, one can't. One can pull back on the elevator for a tighter turn than the other. One can pull back on the elevator for a larger-radius turn than the other. One can extend... See what I mean?
Capitalizing on these differences is the key. An "equal" fight is seldom truly "equal". Creating these differences is also important. And creating the differences so that your opponent takes the predictable choice you wanted him to take is another.
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I either didn't keep or didn't film the fight I was thinking of.
Lets review your comments for a second. There is no such thing as an "equal E" duel vs a good stick. He's either going to optimize for angles or E and he will not want to be even with you. Are we talking same plane dueling rules or an MA engagement...big difference. I'm much more effective in an MA encounter then I am in a duel. I also prefer to be in different planes. I'm looking for an exploitable advantage of some sort. (I would add "create" an exploitable difference/advantage here... Either way once your "defensive" you lost either angular advantage or E or both. I'd start right there and work with a trainer to get an evaluation of your tactics and your understanding of those tactics. My guess is that you've got a misconception or incomplete grasp of something relatively fundamental thats leading to the point your at...
It's SICK how similar my take is to yours!
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When in an energy fight, would it always be best to maintain corner velocity?
to answer his question, No. to maintain corner velocity is to keep your speed up and though maneuvering you would have to go nose low to 'maintain corner velocity' which goes against building E. and Definately No when it comes to rolling scissors where you want to scrub your speed to create the overshoot.
in my energy fights the speed is always dynamic. i'm always trying to gain energy when i can just to burn energy to go for the shot or force the opponent to burn even more energy.
so.. maintaining corner velocity and maintaining energy are not the same. the only time i specifically accelerate to CV is when i need to make a break turn, then after the gun pass i quickly roll level nose up or if the opponent is really pressing the attack i would have to try to reverse. don't just think about what your plane is doing, but what his plane is doing, and where it's going.
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It's SICK how similar my take is to yours!
I always felt we had fairly similar views on how to go about things going back to the times we got a chance to wing together.
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This is something I picked up from TC. If I got it wrong, don't blame him. TC used to say something like to trim your elevator to the bottom of the L on the trim gauge when it looked like you were entering a fight.
TC tends to fly hogs. I tend to fly hogs. In an F4U. trimming elevator to the bottom of the L is just about corner velocity. So, in a fight the nose of my plane wants to go to the speed that gives me the best turn rate. I thought that sounded okay. About that time, I read in Shaw to keep my speed up in a fight so that I could still maneuver in the vertical. Corner velocity allows me to do that, too.
I can still use throttle and flaps to get around in a tighter circle when I get slow. Then I can raise flaps, unload a bit, and when my nose gently pulls up, I'm at corner velocity.
If I'm getting bored to death by a BnZ'er, I'll let trim keep, or get me back, to corner velocity so I can avoid those monotonous passes until one of us does something stupid. I always hope that I can build up some E this way, too, when defending against the BnZ.
At corner velocity, I think I'm at a speed that allows my plane to perform well in a turn and in the vertical. Setting your trim may help your fighting, too.
Of course, Mtnman and snaphook will tell you how predictable I am when fighting, so that may not be a good idea.
HONK!
Gooss
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Here are some excellent threads and comments concerning corner velocity:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,231950.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,213783.0.html
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In a nose-to-nose fight, the aircraft with the better turn radii tends to have the advantage. In a nose-to-tail fight, the aircraft with the best turn rate tends to have the advantage.
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Thanks Rolex, got some extra bit of reading to do this semester.
GPA's not so bad this first semester either :D
Anyway, I now understand a bit more. Due to the fact that deceleration cannot exceed the aircraft's forward acceleration in order to maintain corner velocity, one must keep one's fighter nose down a lot to keep that corner speed. A lot of the time though, as we all know, in a down in the weeds duel, this is not possible. So I often just put some WEP into any upward portion of the fighting to maintain as much speed as possible, especially since the Spitfire VIII does not zoom particularly well.
Other times, I will attempt to induce a controlled stall at the top of a loop, but I think this drains too much speed and puts me at a disadvantage if that stall doesn't immediately lead to a good shot solution.
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and Definately No when it comes to rolling scissors where you want to scrub your speed to create the overshoot.
One would not specifically want to Scrub Speed, rather one would want to keep their Speed(E) as much as possible, but slow their forward advancement.......doing so by way of a higher/steeper helix/angle......
yes both will eventually scrub some Speed........but in a rolling scissors it's about who moves the slowest going forward.....not who has the slowest speed.....to force an overshoot.....
hope this is of help to someone ~S~
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Late reply. Yes, TC, it does.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find it much more difficult going through a rolling scissors in a plane that doesn't turn or accelerate well. Sometimes I feel as if turning harder and accelerating well enough to get myself back to a good turning speed is all that's needed.
I don't know if I'm approaching maneuvers like the vert. rolling scissors incorrectly now. After all, being a dweebfire pile-it, turning seems to have been a tool that I've abused.
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Late reply. Yes, TC, it does.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find it much more difficult going through a rolling scissors in a plane that doesn't turn or accelerate well. Sometimes I feel as if turning harder and accelerating well enough to get myself back to a good turning speed is all that's needed.
I don't know if I'm approaching maneuvers like the vert. rolling scissors incorrectly now. After all, being a dweebfire pile-it, turning seems to have been a tool that I've abused.
I am trying to figure out exactly which part, your Yes it does.......... is in regards to, Pappy?
regarding to rolling scissors, I would want to have planes types with better roll rates, verses turning/accelerating ....... if I can roll quicker, I can point my lift vector to where I want it quicker...... I can let the less E burning rolling help me maintain my E, instead of the more E Burning Turning.......
in replying to Gooss' post: the old gauges of Aces high yes I would use the visual of having the ELV trim to where the red tic marker was in-line with the bottom part of the L
E
L _
V
but since the updated cockpit gauges on the F4U's......... I simply trim my HOG to around 325 to 340 IAS these days..... this is about 15 mph faster than the speed I was wanting to be trimmed at back in the old Aces High 1.......
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regarding to rolling scissors, I would want to have planes types with better roll rates, verses turning/accelerating ....... if I can roll quicker, I can point my lift vector to where I want it quicker...... I can let the less E burning rolling help me maintain my E, instead of the more E Burning Turning.......
According to the Trainers' site write-up of the rolling scissors, isn't it the other way around? I.e., the most important factors in a rolling scissors are turn-rate and climb/acceleration?
Perhaps I'm not visualizing the advantage you're talking about TC. But from my experience, you gain no advantage whether you are offensive or defensive. If you are defensive (in front), faster rolling means you fly through a smaller path and thus create less closure (not what you want). On the other hand, if you are offensive, you are flying lag anyways until you create enough distance so a shot opens up - no need to roll so quickly.
On the other hand, any corrections to this view would help. I like to fly 190s after all so any extra info on how to use that amazing roll rate would help.
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I wasn't speaking specifics, boomerlu
if I can roll quicker, and point my lift vector quicker....that means I can turn quicker........
I withdraw all my other comments from this thread........... all the way back to where I speak opposite of Stran
so many people keep saying SLOW DOWN, Cut Throttle, Work Flaps...for Rolling Scissors
when most of that stuff comes into effect on down the line, on long drawn out Rolling Scissor battles where both you and your opponent are prob equal in skill
.....flying a tighter turn radius ( one can interpet that as better turning sometimes ) is not good, one wants to fly a higher arc ( one can possibly interpet this as a wider turn radius, not in a literal meaning though ) tighter turn wil put you further along the line than a wider turn. so to speak.......
I guess people could word things in different ways . both being right and wrong. depending on the word structure?
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Gotcha TC. Yeah, I'm understanding the rolling scissors correctly then.
if I can roll quicker, and point my lift vector quicker....that means I can turn quicker
Better phrasing might be "that means I can turn sooner"? That capture your meaning?
so many people keep saying SLOW DOWN, Cut Throttle, Work Flaps...for Rolling Scissors
when most of that stuff comes into effect on down the line, on long drawn out Rolling Scissor battles where both you and your opponent are prob equal in skill
Yes, it's not about slowing down in the rolling scissors, it's about traveling the longer distance... which actually means that whoever retains more E will come out on top (literally and figuratively) by climbing higher in the rolling scissor thus forcing his opponent forward.
I guess people could word things in different ways . both being right and wrong. depending on the word structure?
I think that's what happened. All clear now.