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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Masherbrum on January 05, 2010, 05:33:23 PM

Title: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 05, 2010, 05:33:23 PM
http://www.stangnet.com/2009/12/27/the-2011-ford-mustang-brings-the-5-0-back/ (http://www.stangnet.com/2009/12/27/the-2011-ford-mustang-brings-the-5-0-back/)

Coprhead, you MIGHT want to think about "trading up".   I'm looking seriously into the 2011 GT now. 
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 05, 2010, 05:39:35 PM
(http://tampa-bay-sailing-blog.com/wp-content/gallery/wtf/quagmire_giggity_giggity_goo.jpg)

I'll wait for the 2012. Never will I buy a first year production of any vehicle!
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: REVRAND on January 05, 2010, 05:42:15 PM
Its still going to handle like chit.....they always have......best thing for a Mustang is stay STR8! :bolt: :neener:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 05:44:06 PM
http://www.stangnet.com/2009/12/27/the-2011-ford-mustang-brings-the-5-0-back/ (http://www.stangnet.com/2009/12/27/the-2011-ford-mustang-brings-the-5-0-back/)

Coprhead, you MIGHT want to think about "trading up".   I'm looking seriously into the 2011 GT now. 

mine'll be black, with a 6 speed manual.  :aok

 why in the world do we not have a drooly icon?????
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 05, 2010, 05:46:26 PM
Going to have to go white with blue stripes, or if my prayers are answered Marnia Blue!
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 05:48:44 PM
Its still going to handle like chit.....they always have......best thing for a Mustang is stay STR8! :bolt: :neener:

you've obviously never driven one.


Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: REVRAND on January 05, 2010, 05:52:44 PM
Drive BMW'z ..........Nuf Said.... :devil
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 05:52:49 PM
Going to have to go white with blue stripes, or if my prayers are answered Marnia Blue!

the only brand new car i ever owned, was an 83 mustang gl. it was special ordered with a 5.0, 5 speed, and 3.27 rear. no other options, except for the trx suspension.
 the rear blew, as it was only a 7.5" back then. i rebuilt it with 3.73's, blew that one, and put a 9" in it. the trx suspension sucked.

 it was black.

 so shall this one be.  :D :joystick:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 05:55:31 PM
Drive BMW'z ..........Nuf Said.... :devil

so have i.

put some water on the road, and i'd take the beemer.

in the real world of street driving, there's not many out there that have the balls to push their car even remotely close to its limits. heck.....most people don't have a clue as to the capabilities of their cars. and i don't think i've been out cornered in my 89 on the street. i knew how far i could push her.....and when she'd let go.

 i did/do.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: REVRAND on January 05, 2010, 06:06:31 PM
so have i.

put some water on the road, and i'd take the beemer.

in the real world of street driving, there's not many out there that have the balls to push their car even remotely close to its limits. heck.....most people don't have a clue as to the capabilities of their cars. and i don't think i've been out cornered in my 89 on the street. i knew how far i could push her.....and when she'd let go.

 i did/do.


LMAO!!! street driving ........You go git 'r done there Mad Max........the wife's 530xi can out corner that GT with ease. Problem is too much power to your rear wheels causes wheel spin and loss of control. Thank Newton for that. Not Mustang bashing at all. Just for the money seems to be many other cars out there that perform better. Texas roads warrants many opportunities to "push cars to the limits"........M-5 is next and then your GT is really out of its league.  :salute
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 06:11:03 PM

LMAO!!! street driving ........You go git 'r done there Mad Max........the wife's 530xi can out corner that GT with ease. Problem is too much power to your rear wheels causes wheel spin and loss of control. Thank Newton for that. Not Mustang bashing at all. Just for the money seems to be many other cars out there that perform better. Texas roads warrants many opportunities to "push cars to the limits"........M-5 is next and then your GT is really out of its league.  :salute

buddy of mine had an m5.........18 year old girl running a light broadsided him. thankfully, he had hesitated before going, so he lived.....unfortunately, the car didn't. it was beautiful.


 i wasn't trying to put down the car. i'm no mad max either. i just tend to know how far i can push my cars, and when someone tries to plant themselves on my back bumper, they generally don't manage to stay there long.  :devil

 i did lose to a 5 series beemer once. in my dakota.  that thing drives like an old 80's 5th ave. at anything over 70.


dammit.....now i'm gonna hafta price radar detectors again......mustangs aren't stealth.......
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 05, 2010, 06:13:09 PM
buddy of mine had an m5.........18 year old girl running a light broadsided him. thankfully, he had hesitated before going, so he lived.....unfortunately, the car didn't. it was beautiful.

i wasn't trying to put down the car. i'm no mad max either. i just tend to know how far i can push my cars, and when someone tries to plant themselves on my back bumper, they generally don't manage to stay there long.  :devil

 i did lose to a 5 series beemer once. in my dakota.  that thing drives like an old 80's 5th ave. at anything over 70.


dammit.....now i'm gonna hafta price radar detectors again......mustangs aren't stealth.......

Valentine-One
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 07:55:20 PM
you've obviously never driven one.

I haven't driven one in years, but I've raced against them in me '98 firebird.  There has never been a stock mustang built that can match an old f-body on a road course, period.  Just look at historical SCCA race results in the stock classes for proof...
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Bronk on January 05, 2010, 08:00:19 PM
Its still going to handle like chit.....they always have......best thing for a Mustang is stay STR8! :bolt: :neener:
2 words

Jack Roush




Ohh and still cheaper than Big Money Wasted. :neener:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Getback on January 05, 2010, 08:17:53 PM
I love the look of Mustangs but this old boy gonna stay with SUV's. They take me fishing and golfing and they like it.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 08:29:23 PM
2 words

Jack Roush




Ohh and still cheaper than Big Money Wasted. :neener:

How can you say "Jack Roush" and "Big Money Wasted", as if they're 2 separate things?  If you're going to throw another $25,000 at a $40,000 car in order to get it to handle decently, why not just go with a vette to begin with?  A roush mustang can't do anything better than a stock vette of equal price, except carry 4 passengers instead of 2.  And the vette will handle MUCH better on any track that is even slightly more challenging than going in a straight line for .25 miles then jamming on the brakes.

Fact the facts - mustangs are all about image.  There simply isn't anything more to it than that, no matter how much engine you stuff under the hood and no matter how short/stiff the suspension is.  Getting a mustang to perform better than a 4th gen f-body or any vette made in the last 14 years costs more money than just buying a stock *anything else*.

Of course, the same fact applies to the current camaro...  It's a nice looking but very heavy car with a big engine.  Physics takes over no matter how much $$$ or power you pour into the car.


Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 08:33:17 PM
I haven't driven one in years, but I've raced against them in me '98 firebird.  There has never been a stock mustang built that can match an old f-body on a road course, period.  Just look at historical SCCA race results in the stock classes for proof...

I WAS talking street.

and if i recall, didn't mustangs hammer camaros and firebirds in trans am back in 67 or 68? back when they were a lil closer to street cars? :devil
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 08:34:46 PM
How can you say "Jack Roush" and "Big Money Wasted", as if they're 2 separate things?  If you're going to throw another $25,000 at a $40,000 car in order to get it to handle decently, why not just go with a vette to begin with?  A roush mustang can't do anything better than a stock vette of equal price, except carry 4 passengers instead of 2.  And the vette will handle MUCH better on any track that is even slightly more challenging than going in a straight line for .25 miles then jamming on the brakes.

Fact the facts - mustangs are all about image.  There simply isn't anything more to it than that, no matter how much engine you stuff under the hood and no matter how short/stiff the suspension is.  Getting a mustang to perform better than a 4th gen f-body or any vette made in the last 14 years costs more money than just buying a stock *anything else*.

Of course, the same fact applies to the current camaro...  It's a nice looking but very heavy car with a big engine.  Physics takes over no matter how much $$$ or power you pour into the car.




how'd we go from mustang vs camaro to mustang vs corvette/?
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 08:40:40 PM
how'd we go from mustang vs camaro to mustang vs corvette/?

When you said "have you ever driven one" in response to a statement to the effect that mustangs handle like crap.  Then Bronk brought up Roush, which brings the mustang into or above the vette price range, making a comparison to a camaro pointless.

Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Bronk on January 05, 2010, 08:41:11 PM
Snip
yes eagl we know. You don't like mustangs. :neener:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 08:42:13 PM
I WAS talking street.

and if i recall, didn't mustangs hammer camaros and firebirds in trans am back in 67 or 68? back when they were a lil closer to street cars? :devil

Nobody was talking about '67 or '68 mustangs or camaros/firebirds.  We're talking about every mustang ever built compared to the last generation of f-body and the current camaro, and comparing a roush mustang against anything that costs even remotely close to that.

Come on, get with the program :)
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Bronk on January 05, 2010, 08:42:52 PM
When you said "have you ever driven one" in response to a statement to the effect that mustangs handle like crap.  Then Bronk brought up Roush, which brings the mustang into or above the vette price range, making a comparison to a camaro pointless.


And the
Big
Money
Wasted

wasn't targeted towards the vette.. or didn't you pick that up. ;)

Edit:Ohh and eagle the stage 3 suspention from roush is $1500 for the parts.
http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=1145
I'm sure it will get around the corners just fine with that. :neener:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 08:49:54 PM
yes eagl we know. You don't like mustangs. :neener:

I have nothing against mustangs since I know what they are, and they're great at what they are - nice looking cars that can't turn  :D

I do think it's pretty stupid when mustang fans try to talk about how great their mustangs are on a real racecourse, because any race results you can look up that compare stock mustangs of any year against stock 4-th gen f-bodies (the last generation built) show exactly what I said, that there has never been a stock mustang made that can keep up with a 4th gen f-body on a road course.  Then the mustang fans always bring up roush or saleen, at which point you're trying to compare a brand new $80k+ car against a car with a retail value of somewhere under $6,000, making it inevitable that the roush or saleen car will be compared against other $80k cars, of which the vette is the obvious comparison.  An equal comparison could be made between specialty versions of the nissan Z cars, the GT-R, and various european models, however it's just too easy to compare to the vette because the vette has a very good bang/buck ratio in the $60k-$80k price range.

But hate the mustang?  Naw.  I just know what it does well and what it sucks at.   They suck at turning, and the proof is all over the SCCA results for the last 12 years.
 
Brag on the current camaro (or charger, challenger, etc) for turning ability, and you'll get the same treatment :)
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Sonicblu on January 05, 2010, 08:51:03 PM
I liked my O5 Soncblu  Mustang GT Had to sell it to build wife house. When house is done and i saved a little I would buy another one. :x

Fun little car for the price and I dont care how well it performes at the extreme end. I just like taking it for a cruise.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Bronk on January 05, 2010, 08:51:52 PM
Snip
See my edit. $1500  plus install will make her turn just fine. :D
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 08:52:11 PM
And the
Big
Money
Wasted

wasn't targeted towards the vette.. or didn't you pick that up. ;)

Edit:Ohh and eagle the stage 3 suspention from roush is $1500 for the parts.
http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=1145
I'm sure it will get around the corners just fine with that. :neener:

BMW is the obvious reference, but "roush" means $$$.  And the stage 3 suspension on a mustang still won't make it hustle around a track like the 4th gen f-bodies.  Those things loved to be tracked all day.  I know some guys who would bring his stock camaro Z-28 to the track with a trunk full of brake rotors and keep tally of all the specialty mustangs he lapped or out-lasted.  The only weak parts on that generation of f-body was an ineffective power steering cooler, but you could still run it until the brake rotors cracked before having to top up the fluid.  The stangs and many other weaker cars usually pooped out for one reason or another, usually overheating, long before the camaros had to pit.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 09:19:08 PM
When you said "have you ever driven one" in response to a statement to the effect that mustangs handle like crap.  Then Bronk brought up Roush, which brings the mustang into or above the vette price range, making a comparison to a camaro pointless.



actually, the only way that would increase the mustangs price that much, would be if the car was "factory" modded at roush.

 to go ahead and buy the parts and install them yourself, is still fairly cheap.

also......don't think for a minute, that i'm puttin down the ":F" bodies. i'm not.

 when i talk, since i've never autocrossed, i talk of street driving. there's plenty of twisty-turny roads around here, and my 89 breezed through em, with mostly stock suspension.
 in all honesty, i never had anyone that tried, manage to stay with me. now.....2 equally skilled drivers.....i know it's a different story.
 ford(i think) knows that the main market for the stang, is guys that like to tinker with their cars, so they keep it simple.
 your "F" bodies are proof positive that IRS isn't really necessary for excellent handling, and ford seems to realize this too.
 simply change the rear control arms, and possibly the springs, will wake up the stang. best part, is that a knuckle dragger can do that in an afternoon, with no lifts or air tools. i could do it all in about 2 hours or less.

 i just absolutey love the looks of the new stang...although i hate it in red.......
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 09:23:11 PM
Nobody was talking about '67 or '68 mustangs or camaros/firebirds.  We're talking about every mustang ever built compared to the last generation of f-body and the current camaro, and comparing a roush mustang against anything that costs even remotely close to that.

Come on, get with the program :)


but in doing so, at some point, you're going apples to oranges.

in the mentioned years, they were equal. of course a 68 stang won;t handle to a 4th gen F body. neither will a 68 camaro.

  :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 09:23:55 PM
And the
Big
Money
Wasted

wasn't targeted towards the vette.. or didn't you pick that up. ;)

Edit:Ohh and eagle the stage 3 suspention from roush is $1500 for the parts.
http://store.roushperformance.com/detail.aspx?ID=1145
I'm sure it will get around the corners just fine with that. :neener:

it doesn't have to be roush......ya could even go ford motorsports.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 05, 2010, 09:26:18 PM
We're talking about every mustang ever built compared to the last generation of f-body and the current camaro, and comparing a roush mustang against anything that costs even remotely close to that.

Hmmm pretty sure a early 90s FOX Mustang would smack the crap out of a 3rd Gen Camaro.  Why only the F-Body cars?  I bet you're an F-Body guy. 
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 09:34:28 PM
I have nothing against mustangs since I know what they are, and they're great at what they are - nice looking cars that can't turn  :D

I do think it's pretty stupid when mustang fans try to talk about how great their mustangs are on a real racecourse, because any race results you can look up that compare stock mustangs of any year against stock 4-th gen f-bodies (the last generation built) show exactly what I said, that there has never been a stock mustang made that can keep up with a 4th gen f-body on a road course.  Then the mustang fans always bring up roush or saleen, at which point you're trying to compare a brand new $80k+ car against a car with a retail value of somewhere under $6,000, making it inevitable that the roush or saleen car will be compared against other $80k cars, of which the vette is the obvious comparison.  An equal comparison could be made between specialty versions of the nissan Z cars, the GT-R, and various european models, however it's just too easy to compare to the vette because the vette has a very good bang/buck ratio in the $60k-$80k price range.

But hate the mustang?  Naw.  I just know what it does well and what it sucks at.   They suck at turning, and the proof is all over the SCCA results for the last 12 years.
 
Brag on the current camaro (or charger, challenger, etc) for turning ability, and you'll get the same treatment :)

ya gotta do some research dude.


mustang will be less then 50k for a brand new one, modded to turn very nicely with the F bodies.

 get a <what was the last year of the camaro?> and mod it slightly, and it'll do much better than ya trhink :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Strip on January 05, 2010, 09:36:52 PM
Its still a Ford.....

Strip
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 09:37:37 PM
Its still a Ford.....

Strip

yep. that, sir, is the best part.  :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Saxman on January 05, 2010, 09:39:08 PM
I wish I had $30,000-40,000.

I'll be driving that Integra until it falls apart.... :(
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 05, 2010, 09:46:02 PM
But hate the mustang?  Naw.  I just know what it does well and what it sucks at.   They suck at turning, and the proof is all over the SCCA results for the last 12 years.
 
Brag on the current camaro (or charger, challenger, etc) for turning ability, and you'll get the same treatment :)
Try Koni Challenge...Mustang have been beating up the competion (BWMs Porsche among others).  Just saying though.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 05, 2010, 09:47:36 PM
Its still a Ford.....

Strip

On a quiet night, you can hear the Mo-Powers and Chevys rusting.   
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: saggs on January 05, 2010, 10:00:53 PM
With all this talk of Mustangs not being able to corner, or handle a track at all; has it been forgotten that Mustangs DID actually race competitively in the BTCC back in the day, and they did quite well to boot.  Sure the Coopers they raced against out cornered them, but it's not like the Mustangs ended up in a giant fireball in every corner, and the Mustangs always beat 'em in the straights.

I remember a few years ago Top Gear did a test of the stock vs. Shelby GT500 vs. Roush Mustangs.  Their general conclusion was favorable for the stock, and the Roush versions, but they disliked the GT500 because it had much more power than stock, but with no upgrades to the suspension or brakes to handle that power.  Basically that if you got a little to heavy footed in the GT500, it could very easily kill you in the next corner, whereas the Roush has less power than the GT500, but does have improved brakes, suspension.

Personally I like a car that can slide the butt end out a little in the corners, it's fun, (at least until you spin out and meet a tree) makes smoke, and loud squealing noises, what more do you need. :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 10:37:26 PM
Pre-1994, it was all mustang over camaro/firebird.  No contest, the mustang was a better performer.  The LT-1 engine after 1994-1995 had an honest 285hp though, and from 1995 through the end of f-body production in 2002, there was simply no way any factory mustang could keep up with a factory camaro/firebird.  The use of the LS-1 engine from 1998-2002, combined with some other modifications such as the more blunt front end which reduced body lift at high speed, was just icing on the cake.  The LS-1 was conservatively rated at 305 hp, but most Z-28s would dyno bone-stock at over 295hp, meaning they were actually getting around 340 at the crank.  Simple intake and exhaust work would bump the F-body LS-1 right back up to the 265hp the same motor got in the vette motor in those years, even without using the more aggressive vette camshaft.

My G8 GT uses an evolved version of the LS series motors, limited to a mere 361hp because of the cylinder disable feature which helps boost fuel efficiency and avoid the gas guzzler tax.  Guys who swap out the collapsable lifters for LS-2 or LS-3 parts are easily seeing 400+ hp with only minor mods.

And cap, you're absolutely right about how easy it is to mod the 4th gen f-bodies for crazy power.  A guy here at Sheppard AFB swapped in an LS-3 crate motor, then either turbo or supercharged it, for somewhere north of 600hp street legal on pump gas.  And all total, the price of the car and all the mods he's done plus some interior upgrades like full leather seat replacements, etc., is less than the price of a 2010 mustang GT.

The only downside to spending a few grand building up a used f-body into an insane mustang killer is that you have to wear a mullet.  That part sort of sucks.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 10:47:03 PM
Hmmm pretty sure a early 90s FOX Mustang would smack the crap out of a 3rd Gen Camaro.  Why only the F-Body cars?  I bet you're an F-Body guy. 

The '89-'93 fox mustangs were great (especially the "sleeper" 5.0 LX because it was 300lbs lighter than the GT and had a stiffer frame due to having a trunk instead of the hatchback), until around 1994 when the LT-1 motor started cranking out around 285hp.  My brother had a 1995 camaro and the mustangs couldn't touch it on either a dragstrip or road course without some serious modifications.

The CHP experimented with switching from mustangs to camaros for their pursuit vehicles in the early 1990s, and from 1994 on did not buy any more mustangs at all since the camaros were so much faster for the same price.  They didn't switch over to the camaro completely however, because of the ergonomics of the camaro.  It's just too hard to get into and out of in a hurry, and the visibility out of a camaro/firebird was terrible compared to the mustangs in those years.  But you couldn't beat the performance/dollar of the camaro after 1994, and they could really withstand quite a beating in hard driving.

It's interesting to note that the f-body got a bad reputation of being bad in accidents because of the high fatality rate from collisions and single-car crashes, but a closer look at the accidents showed that the fatalities were usually caused by not wearing a seatbelt, plus the accidents were occurring a LOT faster than other typical accidents.  I know a guy who walked away from a camaro after the guy driving it flipped it at 80+.  The driver was not wearing his seatbelt and he died instantly, but the passenger got a busted arm and was able to extract himself from the wreckage before help arrived.  But the insurance companies look at the stats and not so much at the details of the individual retards crashing the cars, so the insurance rates were higher than I think they should have been.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 05, 2010, 10:50:56 PM
But I'm positive with the plethora of aftermarket parts for the Fox chassis mustangs, I could buy and build a Fox Mustang to beat the snot out of a new Camaro SS.  I mean you can pick up an average 5.0L for 2500.00 USD.  That leaves roughly 32,000.00 USD for mods.  

So imo comparing a modified F-Body to a new Mustang is like comparing creamed corn to apples.

Btw you could get an LX in hatchback, notchback or ragtop.

My old LX...

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/Mustang.jpg)
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 05, 2010, 10:52:41 PM
Try Koni Challenge...Mustang have been beating up the competion (BWMs Porsche among others).  Just saying though.


Stock?  There is no doubt that you can throw mods at a mustang (or any car for that matter) and make it turn better, but that's not really what we're talking about.

Even my 4000lb plus G8 will turn fairly well with just a bushing swapout, but that's because it is a well balanced car.  But there is no hiding the fact that it weighs 4000 lbs and all the springs, shocks, bushings, superchargers you might throw at it will simply make it a better "handling" 4000 lb car.  Physics takes over at some point and there is only so much you can do to increase the tire contact patch or otherwise add turning capability to a heavy car.  That's what kills the current mustangs, camaros, chargers, challengers, etc.  They weigh a lot and you can't change that without major modifications.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 05, 2010, 11:56:30 PM
Stock?  There is no doubt that you can throw mods at a mustang (or any car for that matter) and make it turn better, but that's not really what we're talking about.

Even my 4000lb plus G8 will turn fairly well with just a bushing swapout, but that's because it is a well balanced car.  But there is no hiding the fact that it weighs 4000 lbs and all the springs, shocks, bushings, superchargers you might throw at it will simply make it a better "handling" 4000 lb car.  Physics takes over at some point and there is only so much you can do to increase the tire contact patch or otherwise add turning capability to a heavy car.  That's what kills the current mustangs, camaros, chargers, challengers, etc.  They weigh a lot and you can't change that without major modifications.

We were fortunate enough to get a chance to take the wheel of a Track Pack equipped 2010 Mustang and take it through the hills around Los Angeles, California.  Despite stiffer springs and shocks the Track Pack provides a surprisingly comfortable ride.  Turn in is crisp thanks to grippy 19-inch Pirelli tires and according to Team Mustang their tenacious grip generates a .93 G skid pad rating.  We have no doubt

source...
http://www.corral.net/new/index.php/tech/43-articles/107-2010-mustang-first-drive


At the track, all that hardware translates to a maximum 68.6-mph speed through our slalom and 0.88g on the skid pad. Here the lack of visibility was a hindrance through the slalom as well. It's difficult to see where the corners of this car are while you're driving. For most sane people, this sensation makes one overestimate the size of the car in order to ensure a safe distance from other cars or objects.

source....
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2010/2010-chevrolet-camaro-ss-full-test-and-video.html

http://www.modernracer.com/chevroletcamaro2010.html

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this one shows camaro at .90

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/detroit/2010/2011_ford_mustang_gt/index.html

with those numbers, it will not be the car that decides who gets through a corner first, but rather the driver.

Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 12:01:19 AM
We were fortunate enough to get a chance to take the wheel of a Track Pack equipped 2010 Mustang and take it through the hills around Los Angeles, California.  Despite stiffer springs and shocks the Track Pack provides a surprisingly comfortable ride.  Turn in is crisp thanks to grippy 19-inch Pirelli tires and according to Team Mustang their
source...
http://www.corral.net/new/index.php/tech/43-articles/107-2010-mustang-first-drive


At the track, all that hardware translates to a maximum 68.6-mph speed through our slalom and 0.88g on the skid pad. Here the lack of visibility was a hindrance through the slalom as well. It's difficult to see where the corners of this car are while you're driving. For most sane people, this sensation makes one overestimate the size of the car in order to ensure a safe distance from other cars or objects.

source....
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2010/2010-chevrolet-camaro-ss-full-test-and-video.html

http://www.modernracer.com/chevroletcamaro2010.html

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this one shows camaro at .90

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/detroit/2010/2011_ford_mustang_gt/index.html

with those numbers, it will not be the car that decides who gets through a corner first, but rather the driver.

Exactly.   
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: phatzo on January 06, 2010, 12:09:07 AM
Back in the day, Australian V8 touring car championships suffered a bout of foreign imports, I think it was the late 80's, and Fords domestic V8, Falcon couldn't cope. Dick Johnson, a long time Ford touring car man, used the new rules to use Mustangs ( much like coprheads one ). I wish some of you guys could of had the chance to see these things racing at bathurst. It was an awsome spectacle.
(http://www.djr.com.au/Images/museum/18-greens-tuff.jpg)
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: whiteman on January 06, 2010, 12:10:02 AM
The LS-1 was conservatively rated at 305 hp, but most Z-28s would dyno bone-stock at over 295hp, meaning they were actually getting around 340 at the crank.  Simple intake and exhaust work would bump the F-body LS-1 right back up to the 265hp the same motor got in the vette motor in those years, even without using the more aggressive vette camshaft.

maybe 1998-2000 were at 295-305 but the 01-02 F-Bodies stock I've seen on a dyno go from 300rwhp to as high as 333rwhp on a six speed. My '01 stock put out 323 rwhp and 347 rwtrq through a 4L60E, thats a nice 387hp & 412lbtrq at the crank. Awsome bang for the buck from those cars and are much lighter compared to the newer mucle cars.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 12:11:29 AM
But I'm positive with the plethora of aftermarket parts for the Fox chassis mustangs, I could buy and build a Fox Mustang to beat the snot out of a new Camaro SS.  I mean you can pick up an average 5.0L for 2500.00 USD.  That leaves roughly 32,000.00 USD for mods.  

So imo comparing a modified F-Body to a new Mustang is like comparing creamed corn to apples.

Btw you could get an LX in hatchback, notchback or ragtop.

My old LX...

(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/Mustang.jpg)

Gimme a notchback over any Pontiac any day.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 12:24:27 AM
Back in the day, Australian V8 touring car championships suffered a bout of foreign imports, I think it was the late 80's, and Fords domestic V8, Falcon couldn't cope. Dick Johnson, a long time Ford touring car man, used the new rules to use Mustangs ( much like coprheads one ). I wish some of you guys could of had the chance to see these things racing at bathurst. It was an awsome spectacle.
(http://www.djr.com.au/Images/museum/18-greens-tuff.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIKz2M0Uao8

this looks fun. funny how similarily modded cars, the stang dint seemt o have much trouble dispatching that white camaro....and a couple other stangs.  :devil

btw....i have one of those engines oiled, and wrapped up in plastic all nice n safe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-BywtyGsrA

and part 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2phCvAijiqo&feature=related

sittin here listenin to that smallblock scream, is sending chills down my spine.....and....uuuummmmmmm :joystick: :joystick:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 12:33:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIKz2M0Uao8

Looks like maybe Thunderhill Raceway Park?   Nice video regardless.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 12:42:11 AM
I've had all 3 (plus a T-Top hatchback even had a Capri with the bubbleback).  They have there pluses and minus.  Capri was actually my favorite.  Loved the flaring on the fenders and evil looking nose.  But the notch was the sneakiest!
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 12:47:29 AM
I've had all 3 (plus a T-Top hatchback even had a Capri with the bubbleback).  They have there pluses and minus.  Capri was actually my favorite.  Loved the flaring on the fenders and evil looking nose.  But the notch was the sneakiest!

The Lincoln-Mercury dealer I go to here in Plymouth, MI had a used car I was almost ready to get.   The Dealer Owners rare ASC-McLaren 1986 Capri Convertible, it was the 82nd one produced out of 245.  It only had 16,000 miles on it.  

It was either pulled or sold.   Next time I go there (within a couple weeks), I'll try and find out if it's available.  
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 12:53:28 AM
know what i'm lookin for, but can't find?


i was sitting in the flying club one day last summer, and there was some road race on. it was mustangs, 1, 2, and 3, closly followed by some sort of beemer....the nose looked like a z4, but it had a roof, and what looked like a stubby hatchback....and that was followed by a z4 or 2, then a couple porches...........
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 12:56:13 AM
know what i'm lookin for, but can't find?


i was sitting in the flying club one day last summer, and there was some road race on. it was mustangs, 1, 2, and 3, closly followed by some sort of beemer....the nose looked like a z4, but it had a roof, and what looked like a stubby hatchback....and that was followed by a z4 or 2, then a couple porches...........

Might have been this:   (http://www.jimmy540i.com/dinan7big.jpg)   Z3M Coupe.  
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 12:56:39 AM
know what i'm lookin for, but can't find?


i was sitting in the flying club one day last summer, and there was some road race on. it was mustangs, 1, 2, and 3, closly followed by some sort of beemer....the nose looked like a z4, but it had a roof, and what looked like a stubby hatchback....and that was followed by a z4 or 2, then a couple porches...........
This it?

(http://www.bmwmregistry.com/exteriors/M%20coupe.jpg)

Great minds think alike huh Jay!
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 12:58:17 AM
This it?

(http://www.bmwmregistry.com/exteriors/M%20coupe.jpg)

Great minds think alike huh Jay!

 :devil   Knew what he was talking about as he described it.   Z3M Coupe.    :rofl
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 12:59:12 AM
that's exactly the beemer that was crawlin up their arses......but it was still 4th.  :devil

i was hoping to find a vid of a portion of that race, just to prove a point. instead, i found those other vids....... :joystick: :bolt:

 see..the thing i tend to notice.....those of us that're older, and work on these things, realize that for the most part a car doesn't have a clue as to what name is stamped on the valve cover.

 we also tend to keep a more open mind, and realize that often, these cars are so dam closely matched, that it is the driver, and not the car.

 i fully agree with eagl......till 94, there wasn't a  chevy, short of the vette that could touch a stang....stock to stock. on top of that, the stang was significantly cheaper.

 it seemed in 94, ford effed up, raised the price, lowered the power, and raised hte weight of the stangs, just as chevy did the exact opposite with the camaro.

 till this new body style came out.......now, they're runnin neck n neck again, and i think with the 2011(if ford uses their head and drops the price) stang will hammer the camaro.
 i don't care 'bout the vette......that car's in a class all it's own.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: phatzo on January 06, 2010, 12:59:26 AM
A lap of bathurst with Dick 1986 in the Mustang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCfEKxftWU0
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 01:07:56 AM
A lap of bathurst with Dick 1986 in the Mustang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCfEKxftWU0

there;'s sumtin wrong.....the drivers are sitting on the passengers side.


and what's a rice track?  :devil

seriously that's pretty dam cool.  :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 01:16:42 AM
that's exactly the beemer that was crawlin up their arses......but it was still 4th.  :devil

i was hoping to find a vid of a portion of that race, just to prove a point. instead, i found those other vids....... :joystick: :bolt:

 see..the thing i tend to notice.....those of us that're older, and work on these things, realize that for the most part a car doesn't have a clue as to what name is stamped on the valve cover.

 we also tend to keep a more open mind, and realize that often, these cars are so dam closely matched, that it is the driver, and not the car.

 i fully agree with eagl......till 94, there wasn't a  chevy, short of the vette that could touch a stang....stock to stock. on top of that, the stang was significantly cheaper.

 it seemed in 94, ford effed up, raised the price, lowered the power, and raised hte weight of the stangs, just as chevy did the exact opposite with the camaro.

 till this new body style came out.......now, they're runnin neck n neck again, and i think with the 2011(if ford uses their head and drops the price) stang will hammer the camaro.
 i don't care 'bout the vette......that car's in a class all it's own.

Those who would compare a Mustang with a Corvette, don't know jack diddly squat about cars.  

I also agree, once the Fox Bodies were done and they went to the SN-95 (1's), they lost their sense of direction.   They started to get it back with the 430hp 2003 Cobra in the SN-95(2's).   Once J Mays redesigned it, Ford started thinking off the cuff again.   IMO, with the 2011, they hit a Grand Slam.

I cannot wait to at least test drive one of those new 5.0's.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: phatzo on January 06, 2010, 02:08:54 AM
sorry for the hijack but I've been watching a lot of Dick on Youtube the last hour and there is this absolute gem from his adventure into NASCAR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7PxoDrOboE&feature=related

I can imagine a lot of us using his last words playing AH
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: tassos on January 06, 2010, 07:36:16 AM
what fuel does it need?
A) from 1889 Gasoline?
B ) from 1892 Diesel?
Guys I like Vintage cars from last Century like Muscle cars they need Gasoline
The new cars also need Luxury Gasoline tecnic from 1894 nothing changed
God bless Hyundai for my LPG Grandeur i go in Germany easy about 240km/h for over 250 km/h you need a other insurance and Driving Licence.
1 fuel LPG = 32 euro
1 Fuel Mercedes new E320 = 80 euro

Never again Gasoline and Diesel
Hybrid cars also drive with Gasoline and they stink outside of the city the wind dont care where it is Blowing .
Also The new BMW,AUDI,MERDES,VW,...That called New clean cars are a Fake they are clean in town when they drive slow but when they give full gas they smoke like old Steamtrain you cant Breath if you are Behind them full fine dust.I always turn on my Dustfilter on when I drive Behind those new cars.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Treize69 on January 06, 2010, 07:44:13 AM
what fuel does it need?
A) from 1889 Gasoline?
B ) from 1892 Diesel?
Guys I like Vintage cars from last Century like Muscle cars they need Gasoline
The new cars also need Luxury Gasoline tecnic from 1894 nothing changed
God bless Hyundai for my LPG Grandeur i go in Germany easy about 240km/h for over 250 km/h you need a other insurance and Driving Licence.
1 fuel LPG = 32 euro
1 Fuel Mercedes new E320 = 80 euro

Never again Gasoline and Diesel
Hybrid cars also drive with Gasoline and they stink outside of the city the wind dont care where it is Blowing .

 :headscratch:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on January 06, 2010, 07:53:34 AM
The Fox cars in the eighties had a better engine program. When they were stock. Spend equal amounts on the Camaro engine and the Mustang engine, and the Mustang sucks wind quickly. The advantage the Mustang had was the base price was about $7K cheaper. But the only thing that got looser, and rattled worse than a Camaro, was a Mustang.

Further, anything your aftermarket suspension on your Fox body could do, a Guldstrand F body could do better, and faster.

In the nineties, the Camaro engine surpassed the Mustang and stayed there. The handling of the Camaro was better as well.

The new Mustang is not really that impressive.

And Jack Roush is by far the biggest whining, crying, cheating chump motorsports has ever known. From his days getting stomped in NHRA all the way up to the current racing scene, Jack Roush has never changed. If he couldn't buy wins and championships, he cried until he got them, or he took his sorry whining carcass and went home whimpering with his tail between his legs. As far as how good a business owner and operator he is outside of racing, very few compare. But in the motorsports world, Jack Roush has done more damage to every series he's ever been in than any ten other competitors.

By the way, if you want to talk about "pony cars" in the late sixties, in the SCCA Trans Am series, the most dominant car was the Penske 69 Camaro Z-28, driven by Mark Donohue, and sponsored by Sunoco.

Let's talk drag racing. Ever see any Fox body Mustangs in Stock Eliminator? Not many. But the same generation F-body cars are winning races, qualifying in the top ten, and setting records. Ford hasn't had any measurable success in Pro Stock since Bob Glidden retired. And before Lee Shepherd got killed, Lee Shepherd beat Bob Glidden, Ford's most prolific winning driver, on a regular basis. In fact, when Glidden was in his prime, Shepherd not only beat him regularly, but Shepherd was also the only driver to ever win the NHRA and IHRA titles in the same year. And honestly, Grumpy Jenkins ran Jack Roush clean out of NHRA 40+ years ago. Today, the only way Ford gets a dominant car in Stock Eliminator is they paid NHRA to allow them to run a supercharged factory race car in a class it doesn't fit, with a bogus factor. And they screwed that up and got thrown out of the biggest race of the year for having the wrong pistons in their factory car.

Funny, in NASCAR, even with Ford pouring 5X the money into the Roush program than gM puts in all their teams, a Chevrolet won the title. Again. Where is Mark Martin, Ford's best driver in the past 25 years? Over with a Chevrolet team, having more success and more fun than he ever had with Roush and Ford, where he retired from a while back. More wins in NASCAR? Chevrolet. More titles? Chevrolet.

Ford has a great business model, especially compared to GM, the GM business model has sucked for decades, and now the the government runs it, it will only get worse. But GM has several technically superior products. Their LS series V-8 is less expensive, more powerful, and more reliable than the modular engine. The Hydramatic and Allison automatic transmissions have been superior for decades. The Duramax diesel is far superior to any diesel Ford has ever offered. The Ecotec 4 cylinder out lasts and out performs the Ford 4 cylinders. And by the way, if you combine the Chevrolet and GMC truck sales, and we all know they are the same except for trim, GM has outsold Ford in trucks on a regular basis for years. notice the Ford ads say they outsell Chevrolet, not that they outsell GM. Ford has done a far better job running their business. But GM makes a better product.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 08:17:41 AM
The Fox cars in the eighties had a better engine program. When they were stock. Spend equal amounts on the Camaro engine and the Mustang engine, and the Mustang sucks wind quickly. The advantage the Mustang had was the base price was about $7K cheaper. But the only thing that got looser, and rattled worse than a Camaro, was a Mustang.i have to say, that with my 83 5.0L, and my 89 gt, nothing comparably modified even came close to me. nothing. if it cost me more money, that seems to me to be due to the fact that the same part labeled "ford" costs more because it says ford.

Further, anything your aftermarket suspension on your Fox body could do, a Guldstrand F body could do better, and faster.

In the nineties, the Camaro engine surpassed the Mustang and stayed there. The handling of the Camaro was better as well.this was already agreed on

The new Mustang is not really that impressive.it is definitly a step in the right direction, and if ford is smart enough to drop its price, so it can be more competitively priced, it'll turn out good. 

And Jack Roush is by far the biggest whining, crying, cheating chump motorsports has ever known. From his days getting stomped in NHRA all the way up to the current racing scene, Jack Roush has never changed. If he couldn't buy wins and championships, he cried until he got them, or he took his sorry whining carcass and went home whimpering with his tail between his legs. As far as how good a business owner and operator he is outside of racing, very few compare. But in the motorsports world, Jack Roush has done more damage to every series he's ever been in than any ten other competitors.i don't know that much about roush, 'cept that he's been with ford forever. his whining though? there's not a nascar team, and more than likely not an nhra team that doesn't whine. when smith's racing beats jones's racing, they insist, it must be because smith's ford has the advantage....so they whine till the rules are "adapted"  to help their chevy. then when they beat smith's ford, then smith goes coocoo whining, till the rules are adapted again.

By the way, if you want to talk about "pony cars" in the late sixties, in the SCCA Trans Am series, the most dominant car was the Penske 69 Camaro Z-28, driven by Mark Donohue, and sponsored by Sunoco.if i'm not mistaken, ford took the championship in trans am 3 years, to chevys 2? in the 60's early 70's?

Let's talk drag racing. Ever see any Fox body Mustangs in Stock Eliminator? Not many. But the same generation F-body cars are winning races, qualifying in the top ten, and setting records. Ford hasn't had any measurable success in Pro Stock since Bob Glidden retired. And before Lee Shepherd got killed, Lee Shepherd beat Bob Glidden, Ford's most prolific winning driver, on a regular basis. In fact, when Glidden was in his prime, Shepherd not only beat him regularly, but Shepherd was also the only driver to ever win the NHRA and IHRA titles in the same year. And honestly, Grumpy Jenkins ran Jack Roush clean out of NHRA 40+ years ago. Today, the only way Ford gets a dominant car in Stock Eliminator is they paid NHRA to allow them to run a supercharged factory race car in a class it doesn't fit, with a bogus factor. And they screwed that up and got thrown out of the biggest race of the year for having the wrong pistons in their factory car.i don't get to the races enough anymore to see stock eliminator. i would venture that it comes down to cost though. it's cheaper to build a chevy engine, due to price differences in similar parts, being determined by the ford or chevy label. seen it a lot.
 as for personal experience....when we were running my camaro, we kept it de-tuned running low 10's. there was a guy had a 79 capri with a ford 460. pretty similar setup to our car. he handed me my bellybutton on a regular basis. even when we brought the car into the 9's, he was still 2 or 3 tenths faster. i did have a habit of "treeing" him though.  :aok

Funny, in NASCAR, even with Ford pouring 5X the money into the Roush program than gM puts in all their teams, a Chevrolet won the title. Again. Where is Mark Martin, Ford's best driver in the past 25 years? Over with a Chevrolet team, having more success and more fun than he ever had with Roush and Ford, where he retired from a while back. More wins in NASCAR? Chevrolet. More titles? Chevrolet.nascar has been a joke for about 30 or more years.

Ford has a great business model, especially compared to GM, the GM business model has sucked for decades, and now the the government runs it, it will only get worse. But GM has several technically superior products. Their LS series V-8 is less expensive, more powerful, and more reliable than the modular engine. The Hydramatic and Allison automatic transmissions have been superior for decades. The Duramax diesel is far superior to any diesel Ford has ever offered. The Ecotec 4 cylinder out lasts and out performs the Ford 4 cylinders. And by the way, if you combine the Chevrolet and GMC truck sales, and we all know they are the same except for trim, GM has outsold Ford in trucks on a regular basis for years. notice the Ford ads say they outsell Chevrolet, not that they outsell GM. Ford has done a far better job running their business. But GM makes a better product. aren't the ecotecs the ones with the aluminum heads that look like pressed foam? and they tend to crack the head next to the #1 spark plug? i know the older 2.0L's did that......when i get myself a deisel van(which i'm looking for now) it will be a ford. i like the 7.3L. it's irrelevent if ford builds it or not,. it's in their trucks, and i've been driving them for years off and on, towing. they've NEVER let us down. the 7.3L turbodeisel, is even better. if i don't find a van, i have a line on a mid 90's rollback with a 7.3L with a 5 speed......repo'd, and stupidly cheap.  :aok

 like i said before.....a car doesn't know what name is stamped on it.

Year    Champion Manufacturer[10]    Champion Driver    Car
1966    Over 2 liter – Ford
Under 2 liter – Alfa Romeo[11]    Austria Horst Kwech*
Switzerland Gaston Andrey*    Alfa Romeo GTA
1967    Over 2 liter – Ford
Under 2 liter – Porsche[12]    United States Jerry Titus*    Ford Mustang
1968    Over 2 liter – Chevrolet
Under 2 liter – Porsche[13]    United States Mark Donohue*    Chevrolet Camaro
1969    Over 2 liter – Chevrolet
Under 2 liter – Porsche[14]    United States Mark Donohue*    Chevrolet Camaro
1970    Over 2 liter – Ford
Under 2 liter – Alfa Romeo[15]    United States Parnelli Jones*    Ford Mustang
1971    Over 2.5 liter – American Motors
Under 2.5 liter – Datsun [16][17]    United States Mark Donohue*    AMC Javelin
1972    Over 2.5 liter – American Motors
Under 2.5 liter – Datsun[18]    United States George Follmer    AMC Javelin
1973    Chevrolet    United States Peter H. Gregg    Porsche 911
1974    Porsche    United States Peter H. Gregg    Porsche 911
1975    Chevrolet    United States John Greenwood    Chevrolet Corvette
1976    American Motors (Cat 1)    United States Jocko Maggiacomo (Cat 1)    AMC Javelin
Porsche (Cat 2)    United States George Follmer (Cat 2)    Porsche 934
1977    Porsche (Cat 1)    United States Bob Tullius (Cat 1)    Jaguar XJS
Porsche (Cat 2)    Canada Ludwig Heimrath (Cat 2)    Porsche 934
1978    Jaguar (Cat 1)    United States Bob Tullius (Cat 1)    Jaguar XJS
Chevrolet (Cat 2)    United States Greg Pickett (Cat 2)    Chevrolet Corvette
1979    Chevrolet(Cat 1)    United States Gene Bothello (Cat 1)    Chevrolet Corvette
Porsche (Cat 2)    United States John Paul, Sr. (Cat 2)    Porsche 935
1980    Chevrolet    United States John Bauer    Porsche 911
1981    Chevrolet    Canada Eppie Wietzes    Chevrolet Corvette
1982    Pontiac    United States Elliott Forbes-Robinson    Pontiac Firebird
1983    Chevrolet    United Kingdom David Hobbs    Chevrolet Camaro
1984    Lincoln-Mercury    United States Tom Gloy    Mercury Capri
1985    Lincoln-Mercury    United States Wally Dallenbach, Jr.    Mercury Capri
1986    Lincoln-Mercury    United States Wally Dallenbach, Jr.    Merkur XR4Ti
1987    Lincoln-Mercury    United States Scott Pruett    Merkur XR4Ti
1988    Audi    United States Hurley Haywood    Audi 200 Quattro Turbo
1989    Ford    United States Dorsey Schroeder    Ford Mustang
1990    Chevrolet    United States Tommy Kendall    Chevrolet Beretta
1991    Chevrolet    United States Scott Sharp    Chevrolet Camaro
1992    Chevrolet    United States Jack Baldwin    Chevrolet Camaro
1993    Chevrolet    United States Scott Sharp    Chevrolet Camaro
1994    Ford    United States Scott Pruett    Chevrolet Camaro
1995    Chevrolet    United States Tommy Kendall    Ford Mustang
1996    Ford    United States Tommy Kendall    Ford Mustang
1997    Ford    United States Tommy Kendall    Ford Mustang
1998    Chevrolet    United States Paul Gentilozzi    Chevrolet Camaro
1999    Ford    United States Paul Gentilozzi    Ford Mustang
2000    De Tomaso    United States Brian Simo    Qvale Mangusta
2001    Jaguar    United States Paul Gentilozzi    Jaguar XKR
2002    Ford    United States Boris Said    Panoz Esperante
2003    Jaguar    United States Scott Pruett    Jaguar XKR
2004    Jaguar    United States Paul Gentilozzi    Jaguar XKR
2005    Jaguar    Germany Klaus Graf    Jaguar XKR
2006**    Jaguar    United States Paul Gentilozzi    Jaguar XKR
2007    Series not held       
2008    Series not held       
2009    Jaguar    United States Tomy Drissi    Jaguar XKR

* The Drivers Championship was first awarded for the 1972 series.[18] "Champions Drivers" listed prior to 1972 were not officially recognized by the SCCA.

** The title was also not awarded in 2006.


from    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Am_Series
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 08:36:29 AM
I used to work Security at Johnson Controls back in 1997 and met with Paul Gentilozzi, who then drove a Johnson Controls sponsored Camaro.   One of the most down to Earth folks you'd ever wish to meet.  

If were gonna go to "Racing".   The GT40 eclipses anything Chevy ever has achieved.   Those few years were a middle finger to the Racing World and they pulled it off.   Ford was mocked prior, but that attitude soon changed and sent the European Manufacturers into a frenzy.

EDIT:   CAP, one of my favorite race cars of all-time is Parnelli Jones' 1963 Mercury Marauder.   IIRC, it won the Pikes Peak Hill Climb that year.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 08:43:16 AM
I used to work Security at Johnson Controls back in 1997 and met with Paul Gentilozzi, who then drove a Johnson Controls sponsored Camaro.   One of the most down to Earth folks you'd ever wish to meet.  

If were gonna go to "Racing".   The GT40 eclipses anything Chevy ever has achieved.   Those few years were a middle finger to the Racing World and they pulled it off.   Ford was mocked prior, but that attitude soon changed and sent the European Manufacturers into a frenzy.

EDIT:   CAP, one of my favorite race cars of all-time is Parnelli Jones' 1963 Mercury Marauder.   IIRC, it won the Pikes Peak Hill Climb that year.

THAT'S what that black car was in that trans am race i linked...the one with the 60's cars.......there was an old black ford or merc that he had trouble gettin past....it was prolly a marauder.  :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: REVRAND on January 06, 2010, 09:25:46 AM
Holy Crap !!!!!   Did I shake the Bee'z nest or what.........?


My whole point was not to Ford bash or Mustang bash for that matter. I only stated that the STOCK GT with that HP needs better suspension to handle rear wheel torque. This was not my point that the GT   could be a much better car with 25K to 50K of MODS, just that stock for the money it handles terrible compared to others in its price range.........now the post has gone from STOCK to RACE..........SOMEONE TAKE BRONK'Z FINGER OFF THE NOS BUTTON! :salute....LOLOL   
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 10:11:06 AM
Holy Crap !!!!!   Did I shake the Bee'z nest or what.........?


My whole point was not to Ford bash or Mustang bash for that matter. I only stated that the STOCK GT with that HP needs better suspension to handle rear wheel torque. This was not my point that the GT   could be a much better car with 25K to 50K of MODS, just that stock for the money it handles terrible compared to others in its price range.........now the post has gone from STOCK to RACE..........SOMEONE TAKE BRONK'Z FINGER OFF THE NOS BUTTON! :salute....LOLOL   

no big deal. same as normal for threads here.  :neener:

it was fun watching those youtube videos.


 different note.......engine design was mentioned earlier......here's a EFFED up one......03 cadi cts, with leaking valve cover gaskets. cadi updated the entire valve cover.....and it takes almost 4 hours to do em...........friggin engineers.... :furious
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 10:28:45 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love BMWs, always have.  When I worked at Honda R&D Americas we did major comparision tests with the Acura line vs. the BWMs.  The M Series being the pinnacle of BMW performance; but the cost for 2010 M car is astronomical.

M3 Coupe•   414 Horsepower •  Starting at $58,400 MSRP

 
M6 Coupe•  500 Horsepower •  Starting at $102,350 MSRP

GT500•   540 Horsepower • Strating at $ 46,725 MSRP


I think for the 11,675.00 price drifference you could make a GT500 on par with the handling of an M car.

Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: tassos on January 06, 2010, 10:44:22 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love BMWs, always have.  When I worked at Honda R&D Americas we did major comparision tests with the Acura line vs. the BWMs.  The M Series being the pinnacle of BMW performance; but the cost for 2010 M car is astronomical.

M3 Coupe•   414 Horsepower •  Starting at $58,400 MSRP

 
M6 Coupe•  500 Horsepower •  Starting at $102,350 MSRP

GT500•   540 Horsepower • Strating at $ 46,725 MSRP


I think for the 11,675.00 price drifference you could make a GT500 on par with the handling of an M car.


New M3 $58,400? where? buy me 3 please
My Neighbours Daughter have the Brandnew M3 in white 78.000 euro from the BMW Factory in Munich
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: PewterC5 on January 06, 2010, 10:49:09 AM
I love mustang gts and the look on the drivers faces when I beat them in a straight line as well as in the twisties with a stock 4 door Cadillac.  :devil
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 11:02:09 AM
I love mustang gts and the look on the drivers faces when I beat them in a straight line as well as in the twisties with a stock 4 door Cadillac.  :devil

hasn't happened to me yet.

it'll be pretty funny though, when one of them loses to this.

(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/AVIATION166.jpg)

 :devil
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 11:37:28 AM
I'm looking for one of these

(http://www.dragtimes.com/images/5377-1981-Ford-Fairmont.jpg)

I seem to think that a Capri nose and fenders would look killer on this
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 11:41:45 AM
I'm looking for one of these

(http://www.dragtimes.com/images/5377-1981-Ford-Fairmont.jpg)

I seem to think that a Capri nose and fenders would look killer on this

when i bought the futura, i could've gotten one of those wagons for 200 cheaper...and in a little better shape. i seriously considered it, but just couldn't make myself build a station wagon at the time.  :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 12:35:43 PM
hasn't happened to me yet.

it'll be pretty funny though, when one of them loses to this.

(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/AVIATION166.jpg)

 :devil

That's just badass.   Every time I see the car/sticker.   :devil
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 12:44:11 PM
when i bought the futura, i could've gotten one of those wagons for 200 cheaper...and in a little better shape. i seriously considered it, but just couldn't make myself build a station wagon at the time.  :aok
The wagon is nifty, plus the fact its a fox chassis makes it even more fun

check out the Mustang dash...not to mention the wicked cool roll cage.

(http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/291/2221/25726110002_large.jpg)

And just for you Cap

(http://images.mustangandfords.com/featuredvehicles/p145730_large+1980_Ford_Fairmont+Front_Driver_Side.jpg)
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gpwurzel on January 06, 2010, 12:46:39 PM
So, to move this thread on a little tangent - I'm waiting for my visa to emigrate to the US - once moved over, I'll be needing a car (current favourite is the dodge charger (in black kinda the same as is driven on NCIS (and I know, wanting a car on the basis of a show is a bit odd lol...)).

Looking for advice as never bought a car in the US (go figure) and prefer cars with a bit of oomph behind them (current car 2 litre turbo'd, but chassis waaay wobbly on not flat roads)

Advice or opinions (in laymans terms please, I do puters, not mechanics ner )

Wurzel
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 12:48:36 PM
Well Gpwurzel, depends on what you want to spend, how much oomph, and where you will live.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gpwurzel on January 06, 2010, 12:51:12 PM
ah yes, location might help huh....doh.......moving to California, price range up to say 30K (dollars obviously), and prefer lots of oomph lol....



Wurzel
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 01:01:38 PM
Three very nice choices

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=34673623&listingRecNum=0&criteria=prMx%3D35000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D20807%26mkId%3D20012%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D20807%26rd%3D100%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice%26zc%3D90210%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26alMkId%3D20012%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=34033566&listingRecNum=0&criteria=prMx%3D35000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D21712%26mkId%3D20015%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D21712%26rd%3D30%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice%26zc%3D90210%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-1-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26alMkId%3D20015%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listingId=36030557&listingRecNum=0&criteria=prMx%3D35000%26sf1Dir%3DDESC%26prMn%3D0%26alMdId%3D27701%26mkId%3D20005%26stkTyp%3DU%26mdId%3D21388%26mdId%3D21392%26mdId%3D21396%26mdId%3D21420%26mdId%3D32885%26mdId%3D33023%26mdId%3D22334%26rd%3D30%26crSrtFlds%3DstkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId-pseudoPrice%26zc%3D90210%26rn%3D0%26PMmt%3D1-7-0%26stkTypId%3D28881%26sf2Dir%3DASC%26sf1Nm%3Dprice%26sf2Nm%3Dmiles%26alMkId%3D20005%26rpp%3D50%26feedSegId%3D28705&aff=national

I'd go with the Saleen myself...
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gyrene81 on January 06, 2010, 01:09:13 PM
5.0? what a puny engine...toss a Cobrajet (427/428) or Boss (429) engine in the thing and then I'll consider it...I'd even consider a 351M...otherwise it's just a soccer mom's C.F.M. car. All that b.s. tech arguments about this person says blah blah blah and that test shows blah blah blah...fact is it's still an over priced p.o.s. Chinese plastics, Taiwanese vinyl, Japanese steel and Mexican electronics...just like everything else we get to see at the car lot.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 01:16:27 PM
5.0? what a puny engine...toss a Cobrajet (427/428) or Boss (429) engine in the thing and then I'll consider it...I'd even consider a 351M...otherwise it's just a soccer mom's C.F.M. car. All that b.s. tech arguments about this person says blah blah blah and that test shows blah blah blah...fact is it's still an over priced p.o.s. Chinese plastics, Taiwanese vinyl, Japanese steel and Mexican electronics...just like everything else we get to see at the car lot.

boss 429 was a boat anchor in the street cars. the 351m? one of the biggest pos engines ford ever built.

Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 01:23:27 PM
Gyrene have you looked into the build content of typical automobile? I think you might be surprised nowdays.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: thndregg on January 06, 2010, 01:32:49 PM
Its still going to handle like chit.....they always have......best thing for a Mustang is stay STR8! :bolt: :neener:

Disagree. Mustang (at least past ones) had overall better acceleration & handling. GM's Firebird (& Trans Am in my case) had better high end straight-away performance. Even with the 6.6 litre I have in mine, Mustang would out-accelerate it, but the TA's 403c.i. has more torque.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gyrene81 on January 06, 2010, 01:44:14 PM
Gyrene have you looked into the build content of typical automobile? I think you might be surprised nowdays.
Yeah I have...you won't find anything with the "made in the USA" logo on it..."assembled in the US of foreign materials" is what you might find. Even leather is imported and not the same quality you would find in a good leather recliner.


boss 429 was a boat anchor in the street cars. the 351m? one of the biggest pos engines ford ever built.
Cap, the 351m was a much better engine than either the 351c or 351w...you're probably thinking of the windsor engine which most car enthusiasts did agree was a pos.

You never ran a 429 boss did you? especially in a 69 fastback 'stang...ya thinking about the 429 that got nerfed because someone said it was too hot for the average mom and pop car?
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: DrDea on January 06, 2010, 01:56:26 PM
Its still going to handle like chit.....they always have......best thing for a Mustang is stay STR8! :bolt: :neener:
Amen brother. I love the old mustangs.Had a 67 till the handleing drove me nuts. Still the Camaros and trans ams werent any better.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: DrDea on January 06, 2010, 01:58:46 PM
2 words

Jack Roush
Ohh and still cheaper than Big Money Wasted. :neener:
Jack is a whole nother ball game there.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 02:02:57 PM
Yeah I have...you won't find anything with the "made in the USA" logo on it..."assembled in the US of foreign materials" is what you might find. Even leather is imported and not the same quality you would find in a good leather recliner.

Cap, the 351m was a much better engine than either the 351c or 351w...you're probably thinking of the windsor engine which most car enthusiasts did agree was a pos.

You never ran a 429 boss did you? especially in a 69 fastback 'stang...ya thinking about the 429 that got nerfed because someone said it was too hot for the average mom and pop car?

nope. the 351/400m was junk. crap. no power, no torque. wasted main bearings a lot. heads sucked. everything about em sucked.

 the 351 windsor was a kick bellybutton smallblock, that could be built to some nice power and torque. the 351 cleveland was considered an FE(i think) block, and again, could be built to kickass power and torque.

 the boss 429 needed too much rpm. it was put in those cars to legalize it for nascar. by the time ya got a boss 429 into its pwer band, the 396 chevy was well out front........as was the small block mustang.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Skuzzy on January 06, 2010, 02:11:04 PM
<snip?

Cap, the 351m was a much better engine than either the 351c or 351w...you're probably thinking of the windsor engine which most car enthusiasts did agree was a pos.

You never ran a 429 boss did you? especially in a 69 fastback 'stang...ya thinking about the 429 that got nerfed because someone said it was too hot for the average mom and pop car?

Sorry, but you are way wrong about the 351M.  I worked at Ford during the 'M' fiascos.  Yes, the 400M was also a piece of junk.  A couple of the worst engines ever made.  The 351C and 351W are much better engines.  The 351W is a popular engine for hot rods today.

The confusion about the 351W centers around the three different block Ford made.  The first generation 351W block was a damn strong block and the preferred block to be used today for racers.  It has enough meat in the crank webs to machine for 4 bolts caps.

The second generation 351W block was too weak.  Ford stripped it to make it lighter for street duty.  For the street it was fine, but it cannot be used for any serious performance work.

The last generation 351W is the best one yet.  Lighter than the original, but stronger, it is still for sale under the 'Sportsman' name.

Show me a 351M running today, and I will show you an engine that is dead but does not know it yet.  The design was flawed from the start.  Not much about the 'M' family is good at all and there is a reason you will not find an 'M' engine, or any of its parts, anywhere in the Ford performance parts catalogs.


The rumor about the Boss 429 being too hot for the mom and pop mobile is just that.  Rumor.  Ford killed that engine because they did not build it and it was not a very good design.  It was meant to help them keep up with Chevy's 427, but the year it came out, Chevy upped the ante again and still killed Ford.  Ford felt they could not wring anymore out of the engine so they killed it.

The big problem was the lousy head design.  It was just bad.  Poor castings along with too many impurities in the aluminum was just the start of the problems with these heads.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 02:17:57 PM
Yeah I have...you won't find anything with the "made in the USA" logo on it..."assembled in the US of foreign materials" is what you might find. Even leather is imported and not the same quality you would find in a good leather recliner.

Cap, the 351m was a much better engine than either the 351c or 351w...you're probably thinking of the windsor engine which most car enthusiasts did agree was a pos.

You never ran a 429 boss did you? especially in a 69 fastback 'stang...ya thinking about the 429 that got nerfed because someone said it was too hot for the average mom and pop car?

I worked for a large auto manufacture in the R&D center.  I can honestly say your statement is wrong. Many auto mfgs in the US are using Teir 1, Teir 2, Teir 3 and Teir 4 suppliers in the US.  A good example is Honda.  There are two points of assmebly in Ohio, one engine plant where they cast engine blocks, pistons, cranks, rods, along with assembly.  Theres is a transmission plant where that cast the case, gears, check balls, and final assembly. Then onto the interior, Johnson Controls provides many interior components for Honda (along with many other mfgs) they have various factories in the US.  A company (IB-Tech) in Bucyrus Ohio manufactures the seatframes for most Honda vehicles.  What they dont do, another supplier (C-Tech) manufactures other seat frames they are based in Celina Ohio. A plastics company called Tri-Mold located near Lancaster Ohio provides interior plastics and injection molded components.  I could go on and on.

The truth is many parts are made and assembled here in the US, and even some are sent across seas for others.  The Honda Pilot, Odyessey, Acura MDX, Honda Ridgeline and all built in North America, and shipped over seas to countries like Russia, Japan, Germany, Austallia, ect ect.

And the 351M was a horrible motor for Ford, The Cleveland was used for a while through the 60-70s, the Windsor was a fabulous engine and was used in multiple vehicles up until the introduction of the modular engines.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 02:20:10 PM
WOW Skuzzy, I'm impressed! Here I thought you just cursed Microsoft all day!   :D
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Skuzzy on January 06, 2010, 02:27:51 PM
WOW Skuzzy, I'm impressed! Here I thought you just cursed Microsoft all day!   :D

I do that all day, then go home and turn wrenches.  The weekend before last I helped a friend in Austin rewire his 65 427SC.  That was fun.  I periodically join up with a bunch of Cobras (originals and kits) and go racing at some track, somewhere in Texas.

We are scheduling for March now.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: DrDea on January 06, 2010, 02:30:57 PM
WOW Skuzzy, I'm impressed! Here I thought you just cursed Microsoft all day!   :D
Dont you know Skuzzy has l337 skilz?
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: DrDea on January 06, 2010, 02:31:38 PM
 Buddy of mine had a kit Cobra.That was one fine looking car. :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 06, 2010, 02:34:34 PM
I do that all day, then go home and turn wrenches.  The weekend before last I helped a friend in Austin rewire his 65 427SC.  That was fun.  I periodically join up with a bunch of Cobras (originals and kits) and go racing at some track, somewhere in Texas.

We are scheduling for March now.
Nice!!  I think I am going leave Ohio and go hang out with Skuzzy in March! 
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 02:38:13 PM
WOW Skuzzy, I'm impressed! Here I thought you just cursed Microsoft all day!   :D

+1 :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 02:39:05 PM
I worked for a large auto manufacture in the R&D center.  I can honestly say your statement is wrong. Many auto mfgs in the US are using Teir 1, Teir 2, Teir 3 and Teir 4 suppliers in the US.  A good example is Honda.  There are two points of assmebly in Ohio, one engine plant where they cast engine blocks, pistons, cranks, rods, along with assembly.  Theres is a transmission plant where that cast the case, gears, check balls, and final assembly. Then onto the interior, Johnson Controls provides many interior components for Honda (along with many other mfgs) they have various factories in the US.  A company (IB-Tech) in Bucyrus Ohio manufactures the seatframes for most Honda vehicles.  What they dont do, another supplier (C-Tech) manufactures other seat frames they are based in Celina Ohio. A plastics company called Tri-Mold located near Lancaster Ohio provides interior plastics and injection molded components.  I could go on and on.

The truth is many parts are made and assembled here in the US, and even some are sent across seas for others.  The Honda Pilot, Odyessey, Acura MDX, Honda Ridgeline and all built in North America, and shipped over seas to countries like Russia, Japan, Germany, Austallia, ect ect.

And the 351M was a horrible motor for Ford, The Cleveland was used for a while through the 60-70s, the Windsor was a fabulous engine and was used in multiple vehicles up until the introduction of the modular engines.

i think he may be surprised if he has a harley any newer than 70's........where the parts came from. :noid
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gyrene81 on January 06, 2010, 03:31:37 PM
Well Skuzzy, et al...I am not a Ford fan by a long stretch...but the 315M I ran for 5 years in a 1978 Ford Bronco had no problems of any type with performance or workmanship...from the dealer...it went where no other 4x4s could go...smoked all 4 33x10.50 15in tires from a dead stop...and after 75k I did a rebuild at .20 over and ran it long enough for break in then sold it. Maybe I had a one off or that motor was stamped wrong...but the serials said it was a 315M.

I agree that the 429 boss had some short sighted design flaws...I preferred the 427CJ for street competition but do some aftermarket work to fix the Ford mistakes and it was a hand full for any Chevy or Chrysler product. I purchased a 69 boss used from a guy who needed cash after owning it original for 4 years...after doing some engine and drive train work that car paid for itself in the short time I owned it and I made a little profit on the sale.

My experiences with Ford products, though not stellar...were not disappointing when it came to performance...just wish the electronics were better made.



5pointOh...maybe you can tell me where the "made in china" stamps came from on the insides of the door panels, ignition modules, seat assemblies, radio, dash board...blah blah blah...on my Chevy and Dodge cars. The only things marked "made in USA" clearly on both cars is the glass and a few after market items. There are very few automotive items still manufactured in the US, especially electronic...if Honda is using US manufacturing facilities, that would explain the higher costs...$30hr union wages vs $30/day 3rd world non-union wages is a big difference.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 03:53:24 PM
Well Skuzzy, et al...I am not a Ford fan by a long stretch...but the 315M I ran for 5 years in a 1978 Ford Bronco had no problems of any type with performance or workmanship...from the dealer...it went where no other 4x4s could go...smoked all 4 33x10.50 15in tires from a dead stop...and after 75k I did a rebuild at .20 over and ran it long enough for break in then sold it. Maybe I had a one off or that motor was stamped wrong...but the serials said it was a 315M.

I agree that the 429 boss had some short sighted design flaws...I preferred the 427CJ for street competition but do some aftermarket work to fix the Ford mistakes and it was a hand full for any Chevy or Chrysler product. I purchased a 69 boss used from a guy who needed cash after owning it original for 4 years...after doing some engine and drive train work that car paid for itself in the short time I owned it and I made a little profit on the sale.

My experiences with Ford products, though not stellar...were not disappointing when it came to performance...just wish the electronics were better made.



5pointOh...maybe you can tell me where the "made in china" stamps came from on the insides of the door panels, ignition modules, seat assemblies, radio, dash board...blah blah blah...on my Chevy and Dodge cars. The only things marked "made in USA" clearly on both cars is the glass and a few after market items. There are very few automotive items still manufactured in the US, especially electronic...if Honda is using US manufacturing facilities, that would explain the higher costs...$30hr union wages vs $30/day 3rd world non-union wages is a big difference.


i had an f150 wth the 351/400m in it. it sucked. just as i was warned it would.

my chevy pickup with a smallblock 400 kicked its bellybutton easily. the ford couldn't break a single tier loose...it had open diffs....the chevy? easily lit em all up........

 i love my fords, but i know enough about the 351/400 series to know they suck.

 if you'd like, i can get more from a friend that's owned fords since the 50's.

 as for ford big blocks? 428 cobrajet, or one of the 427's......especially if it's the cammer.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 03:54:06 PM
I do that all day, then go home and turn wrenches.  The weekend before last I helped a friend in Austin rewire his 65 427SC.  That was fun.  I periodically join up with a bunch of Cobras (originals and kits) and go racing at some track, somewhere in Texas.

We are scheduling for March now.

squeak  :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Skuzzy on January 06, 2010, 04:02:52 PM
Well Skuzzy, et al...I am not a Ford fan by a long stretch...but the 315M I ran for 5 years in a 1978 Ford Bronco had no problems of any type with performance or workmanship...from the dealer...it went where no other 4x4s could go...smoked all 4 33x10.50 15in tires from a dead stop...and after 75k I did a rebuild at .20 over and ran it long enough for break in then sold it. Maybe I had a one off or that motor was stamped wrong...but the serials said it was a 315M.

I agree that the 429 boss had some short sighted design flaws...I preferred the 427CJ for street competition but do some aftermarket work to fix the Ford mistakes and it was a hand full for any Chevy or Chrysler product. I purchased a 69 boss used from a guy who needed cash after owning it original for 4 years...after doing some engine and drive train work that car paid for itself in the short time I owned it and I made a little profit on the sale.

My experiences with Ford products, though not stellar...were not disappointing when it came to performance...just wish the electronics were better made.
<snip>

Yes, that 351M was such a good motor, Ford dropped it in mid-79 model year and switched to offering the 302 and 351W engines in the Broncos.  That would be the last hurrah for the 'M' engines and everyone at Ford was glad to be rid of them.  It costs Ford a fortune in warranty repairs.

On a good day, Ford was replacing 25,000 engines a day under warranty.  It continued until they stopped using those motors.  All of them were spinning rod and main inserts.


You have to remember the heads for the Boss 429 were not designed nor made by Ford.  Ford contracted with AR for the head design and manufacturing.  Ford also contracted with Kar-Kraft for the final manufacturing of the engine and car.  Ford did not build nor design the Boss 429.  They had requirements for it and that was the design goal.

In the end, the whole program was a huge disappointment.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: sntslilhlpr6601 on January 06, 2010, 06:06:19 PM
:drool:

Well, I have the last year of the 5.0 (95). So wouldn't it be fitting for me to have the first year of the new one?  :aok

Be a few years before I can afford one, though. Just joined the Air Force.  :airplane:

I agree with the article. The new rear end is a bit easier on the eyes. Here I was thinking it had grown on me or something.  :D
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 06:22:37 PM
:drool:

Well, I have the last year of the 5.0 (95). So wouldn't it be fitting for me to have the first year of the new one?  :aok

Be a few years before I can afford one, though. Just joined the Air Force.  :airplane:

I agree with the article. The new rear end is a bit easier on the eyes. Here I was thinking it had grown on me or something.  :D

i think it looks good. i also think this car is aimed at those of us that grew up with the original mustangs. i hate them in red though......but then again, i don't tend to like red cars...which is why my futura will either be painted black, or shelby blue.  :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: sntslilhlpr6601 on January 06, 2010, 06:35:30 PM
Sure its aimed at those that grew up with them, but you don't have to be...how can I put this...older to like the original stangs. Same with music- you just have to have good taste. Trying to make an econobox go fast or look good is no better than enjoying todays popular music.  :cheers:

And yeah, I do like the new rear end. There's just something about the 05-10 rears that puts me off.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Bronk on January 06, 2010, 06:40:22 PM
The 351m is a fantastic engine....................... .





























If used as a mooring. :banana:
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2010, 07:04:10 PM
Sorry, but you are way wrong about the 351M.  I worked at Ford during the 'M' fiascos.  Yes, the 400M was also a piece of junk.  A couple of the worst engines ever made.  The 351C and 351W are much better engines.  The 351W is a popular engine for hot rods today.

The confusion about the 351W centers around the three different block Ford made.  The first generation 351W block was a damn strong block and the preferred block to be used today for racers.  It has enough meat in the crank webs to machine for 4 bolts caps.

The second generation 351W block was too weak.  Ford stripped it to make it lighter for street duty.  For the street it was fine, but it cannot be used for any serious performance work.

The last generation 351W is the best one yet.  Lighter than the original, but stronger, it is still for sale under the 'Sportsman' name.

Show me a 351M running today, and I will show you an engine that is dead but does not know it yet.  The design was flawed from the start.  Not much about the 'M' family is good at all and there is a reason you will not find an 'M' engine, or any of its parts, anywhere in the Ford performance parts catalogs.


The rumor about the Boss 429 being too hot for the mom and pop mobile is just that.  Rumor.  Ford killed that engine because they did not build it and it was not a very good design.  It was meant to help them keep up with Chevy's 427, but the year it came out, Chevy upped the ante again and still killed Ford.  Ford felt they could not wring anymore out of the engine so they killed it.

The big problem was the lousy head design.  It was just bad.  Poor castings along with too many impurities in the aluminum was just the start of the problems with these heads.

Chit Skuzzy, when you aren't tripping over server cords, you damn well know your Ford engines!    :rock
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: DrDea on January 06, 2010, 08:19:45 PM
Chit Skuzzy, when you aren't tripping over server cords, you damn well know your Ford engines!    :rock
Quit kissing his bum.He may know IT and blocks but does he know the average flying speed of an unladen swallow? No he does not.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 08:23:38 PM
Quit kissing his bum.He may know IT and blocks but does he know the average flying speed of an unladen swallow? No he does not.

 :aok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2R3FvS4xr4
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Bronk on January 06, 2010, 08:23:58 PM
Quit kissing his bum.He may know IT and blocks but does he know the average flying speed of an unladen swallow? No he does not.
African or European?
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 09:37:40 PM
African or European?

your-0-pean
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 06, 2010, 10:04:04 PM
dyno run!!


http://www.motorator.com/videos/1126
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gyrene81 on January 07, 2010, 11:44:35 AM
On a good day, Ford was replacing 25,000 engines a day under warranty.  It continued until they stopped using those motors.  All of them were spinning rod and main inserts.
You mean I could have gotten a "better engine" under warranty if I had blown the one I had? If they were replacing them with C's I probably would not have cried too much. Like I said, the one I had performed very well...especially after I replaced the stock intake and carb...if I'm not totally mistaken, 78 was the year they were putting some Cleveland parts on the M's...could explain why I never had a break down...except for that p.o.s. starter everything else was fine.



You have to remember the heads for the Boss 429 were not designed nor made by Ford.  Ford contracted with AR for the head design and manufacturing.  Ford also contracted with Kar-Kraft for the final manufacturing of the engine and car.  Ford did not build nor design the Boss 429.  They had requirements for it and that was the design goal.
Yes sir I do remember those funny lookin heads and the reviews by some of the car mags...I had the entire top end reworked employing some tricks I learned hanging out at the race tracks right after I bought the car...changed the gear ratios a bit and...the tires got a bit expensive but the only street legal car I couldn't touch was a 57 BelAir 2 door that had a modified 454 under the hood...found it cruising in Grand Junction on a Saturday night and under estimated...$200 down on that one.




i had an f150 wth the 351/400m in it. it sucked. just as i was warned it would.

my chevy pickup with a smallblock 400 kicked its bellybutton easily. the ford couldn't break a single tier loose...it had open diffs....the chevy? easily lit em all up........

 i love my fords, but i know enough about the 351/400 series to know they suck.
I guess I've been doing something right then...had more trouble out of a Ford 360 than the 351 ever had...actually blew the 360 around 60k miles...replaced it with a rebuilt 428CJ bored .30 over...that engine spoiled me.



Damn, remembering all the vehicles I've gone through...5 Fords, 4 Chevy's, 1 Olds, 2 Pontiac, 1 Buick, 2 Dodge, 2 Nissan's...wasted money and effort. Only 1 Mustang in the bunch...haven't seen one since that I could either afford or want to spend the money on.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 07, 2010, 12:46:01 PM
You mean I could have gotten a "better engine" under warranty if I had blown the one I had? If they were replacing them with C's I probably would not have cried too much. Like I said, the one I had performed very well...especially after I replaced the stock intake and carb...if I'm not totally mistaken, 78 was the year they were putting some Cleveland parts on the M's...could explain why I never had a break down...except for that p.o.s. starter everything else was fine.


Yes sir I do remember those funny lookin heads and the reviews by some of the car mags...I had the entire top end reworked employing some tricks I learned hanging out at the race tracks right after I bought the car...changed the gear ratios a bit and...the tires got a bit expensive but the only street legal car I couldn't touch was a 57 BelAir 2 door that had a modified 454 under the hood...found it cruising in Grand Junction on a Saturday night and under estimated...$200 down on that one.



I guess I've been doing something right then...had more trouble out of a Ford 360 than the 351 ever had...actually blew the 360 around 60k miles...replaced it with a rebuilt 428CJ bored .30 over...that engine spoiled me.



Damn, remembering all the vehicles I've gone through...5 Fords, 4 Chevy's, 1 Olds, 2 Pontiac, 1 Buick, 2 Dodge, 2 Nissan's...wasted money and effort. Only 1 Mustang in the bunch...haven't seen one since that I could either afford or want to spend the money on.


i've never owned a ford 360. with the exception of that 351/400m, my 69 couger, and my 64 galaxy500, all of my fords have been smallblocks. i should note, that my 69 couger with a 351C and one of fords worst trannys....the fmx......was a much better performer.

 a buddy of mine has had fords all his life....had galaxies with 427 medium, and low risers in them, he had one with a 352 police interceptor, had fairlanes with big and small blocks......and he almost got his hands on a thunderbolt........he was pissed when that deal fell through.

 i like em all......i just have a preference for fords.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Skuzzy on January 07, 2010, 01:10:59 PM
That is an odd one CAP.  The 63-64 Galaxy 500's normally came with the 352 FE blocked engine.  I have never seen one with a small block.  That would be a very rare car.  Probably worth a bit of money today.

A girl I knew in high school had a 64 Galaxy with the 427 side oiler in it, twin 4 bbls.  Was that car a rocket.


gyrene, the Bronco never got a 'C' engine.  They got the 302/351W engines when Ford killed the 'M's.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 07, 2010, 01:12:48 PM
That is an odd one CAP.  The 63-64 Galaxy 500's normally came with the 352 FE blocked engine.  I have never seen one with a small block.  That would be a very rare car.  Probably worth a bit of money today.

A girl I knew in high school had a 64 Galaxy with the 427 side oiler in it, twin 4 bbls.  Was that car a rocket.


gyrene, the Bronco never got a 'C' engine.  They got the 302/351W engines when Ford killed the 'M's.

my 64 had the 352 in it..........and was a convertible.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Skuzzy on January 07, 2010, 01:15:29 PM
my 64 had the 352 in it..........and was a convertible.

Ok, I thought you said small block.  A 64 Galaxy convertible got auctioned off for $89,000.00 at the last show I attended in Austin.  It was blue.  Immaculate condition.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 07, 2010, 01:29:00 PM
Ok, I thought you said small block.  A 64 Galaxy convertible got auctioned off for $89,000.00 at the last show I attended in Austin.  It was blue.  Immaculate condition.

sonofabiach!!


i shoulda kept mine.

 i started restoring it, and an old guy came by one day with cash in hand, and offered me enough that i let it go. it wasn't that much though!!

 mine was light blue, with dark blue top.

 i kinda miss that car.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: Grayeagle on January 08, 2010, 08:19:33 PM
Wurzel..  30k and lookin for a bit of performance in SoCal = C5 corvette.

Unless you need more than a two seater :)

As for buyin a car in the US, probably similar to where you are .. money talks.

You can search Autotrader.com or any number of other sites for what you want in a certain radius.

Actual procedure is to get the value from Edmunds or Kelly Blue Book, and dont let the salesman BS you if you're workin with a dealer.

They invariably trot out a first price offer that will test how gullible you are.
Show them the printout, ask them if they want to sell the car today or indulge in high fantasy, and walk out if anything doesn't seem right.
There are other cars ..no need to get reamed :)

-GE aka Frank
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gpwurzel on January 08, 2010, 09:18:32 PM
Grayeagle, Copr, thanks guys - even tho I kinda sorta have my heart set on a dodge charger (yep, need more than 2 seats), will be taking a look once we (finally) get moved over. Would love a corvette mind, but dont think wife will go a bundle on only having 2 seats lol.....


Thanks again guys,

Wurzel
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: PJ_Godzilla on January 08, 2010, 09:46:55 PM
Grayeagle, Copr, thanks guys - even tho I kinda sorta have my heart set on a dodge charger (yep, need more than 2 seats), will be taking a look once we (finally) get moved over. Would love a corvette mind, but dont think wife will go a bundle on only having 2 seats lol.....


Thanks again guys,

Wurzel

Let me know if you need any assistance with your purchase or servicing. I'm from Ford corporate and am here to help. I won't say anything about the rear end right now but, 400+ hp works, especially when you look at how the current GT does against the Camaro SS (see current issue of CD - Lightning Lap).
                                   
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 08, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
If you want a great deal on a powerful sedan, take a test drive in a pontiac G8.  They are nice cars at a very low price compared to other similar vehicles.  You lose some features and need to make darn sure you don't get one of the few that are plagued by a "wobbly" steering wheel at highway speeds, but you simply can't beat the price.  For $30k (or a lot less if you find a low mileage used one) you get a great handling 4-door sedan with a 361hp or 400+hp LS series V8 engine.  You can't get a V6 accord for that price, all the dodge performance sedans cost a lot more if you get the packages with the hemi, and the ford taurus SHO will run you well over $47,000.

In exchange for the low price, you get a car that saw only 2.5 years of production and sometimes it takes a long time for parts to get shipped from Australia, especially if your dealer's parts department is staffed by idiots who don't know how to get parts for these cars.  If you can live with that, it's a great deal on a neat car.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: CAP1 on January 08, 2010, 10:37:03 PM
If you want a great deal on a powerful sedan, take a test drive in a pontiac G8.  They are nice cars at a very low price compared to other similar vehicles.  You lose some features and need to make darn sure you don't get one of the few that are plagued by a "wobbly" steering wheel at highway speeds, but you simply can't beat the price.  For $30k (or a lot less if you find a low mileage used one) you get a great handling 4-door sedan with a 361hp or 400+hp LS series V8 engine.  You can't get a V6 accord for that price, all the dodge performance sedans cost a lot more if you get the packages with the hemi, and the ford taurus SHO will run you well over $47,000.

In exchange for the low price, you get a car that saw only 2.5 years of production and sometimes it takes a long time for parts to get shipped from Australia, especially if your dealer's parts department is staffed by idiots who don't know how to get parts for these cars.  If you can live with that, it's a great deal on a neat car.


isn't the g8 an Australian holden?

now, in case you mis understood some of my posts......i never meant to put down the gm;s. in fact, i have a customer what wants me to work on his 85. he wants to "warm" it up a little. it's only got a 305 in it....and i'm tryin to convince him to drop in a 350 crate motor.  :D

 that, a little tranny work, and some gearing, and i think this'll be a kickass car.  :aok


mustangs still rule though!!  :devil :angel: :aok
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: eagl on January 08, 2010, 10:52:57 PM
Yea, the G8 is a reworked holden commodore.  That should mean that parts will remain available, even if they may take a while to arrive.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: gpwurzel on January 08, 2010, 11:22:24 PM
Excellent, more food for thought - thanks Eagl

PJ, thank you very much for your offer as well, will keep it in mind for when I get around to actually purchasing.

Wurzel
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: phatzo on January 09, 2010, 04:14:53 PM
Yea, the G8 is a reworked holden commodore.  That should mean that parts will remain available, even if they may take a while to arrive.
if your ever in trouble my brother is president of the holden sporting car club and my niece ( his daughter ) works for holden. I'm sure they could locate stuff in the USA for you. 

edit: most of the parts are common garden variety and can be accessed as aftermarket parts, there will be a cross over with lots of US models all using same parts.
Title: Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
Post by: 5PointOh on January 09, 2010, 07:38:28 PM
You can probably pick up a Pontiac real cheap right now...with the Pontiac brand "disbanded" in the US value, service, and parts are rather questionable.