Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Koendog on January 06, 2010, 10:25:16 PM
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Anyone have a recommendation for an ACM book? Something that goes over them, different scenarios, etc...
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Robert Shaw's "Fighter Combat Tactics & Maneuvering"
from the Naval Institute Press
ISBN 0-87021-059-9
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Robert Shaw's "Fighter Combat Tactics & Maneuvering"
from the Naval Institute Press
ISBN 0-87021-059-9
Yep.
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A great book. It has earned a permanent spot on the bookshelf, although it spends most of it's time open on my desk.
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Robert Shaw's "Fighter Combat Tactics & Maneuvering"
from the Naval Institute Press
ISBN 0-87021-059-9
Quoted for truth.
Shaws book is the "Bible".
(and he's a heck of a nice guy who you can meet if you go to the Dayton meet. There is a post @ it in General)
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Shaw for sure first. After you have that digested there are others out there. But shaw's guns combat should be your bible.
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Quoted for truth.
Shaws book is the "Bible".
(and he's a heck of a nice guy who you can meet if you go to the Dayton meet. There is a post @ it in General)
He signed my First Edition book at Dayton in 2008. :rock
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Robert Shaw's "Fighter Combat Tactics & Maneuvering"
from the Naval Institute Press
ISBN 0-87021-059-9
incredible book, payed dividends in the MA
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And just like that the book is on order, thanks! :airplane:
I see some other ones concerning virtual dogfighting (In Pursuit, Check Six!, etc), anyone given these a whirl?
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And just like that the book is on order, thanks! :airplane:
I see some other ones concerning virtual dogfighting (In Pursuit, Check Six!, etc), anyone given these a whirl?
I have all three. I think they all have good info, but I haven't improved much by reading any of them lol.
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I have all three. I think they all have good info, but I haven't improved much by reading any of them lol.
Reading them is just the 'lecture' of learning. You have to practice it in the 'lab' for it to benefit you.
Reading a copy of Fighter Combat while sipping your morning cup of Joe at the local Tim Hortons while wearing your pilot outfit looks beter than In Pursuit. :bolt:
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And just like that the book is on order, thanks! :airplane:
I see some other ones concerning virtual dogfighting (In Pursuit, Check Six!, etc), anyone given these a whirl?
All three are good. Shaw's is a bit "dry" because it's is strictly an instruction manual, remember reading an Algebra book in school? :D
In Pursuit and Check 6 are both geared more toward sims and have more of a story telling feel, so they are a bit more entertaining while giving you pretty much the same info.
Reading NEVER hurts :aok
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I will suggest my book "Check Six: A Virtual Pilot's Guide" as a precurser to Shaw's book.
If you are not well grounded in the fundentals, Shaw can be tuff read - he did write it for professional pilots 1st and us simmers 2nd. ;)
Check 6 is available at Amazon or at the publisher's site for a lower price.
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=18638
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I've got Shaw but I haven't started reading it again since I got to AH about a year ago. I read it back in the AW days and it didn't take at first. A while later I read it again and it all "clicked" and helped me tons. Then I lost it in the fire.
I ordered it from Barnes and Noble again about 6 months ago and started reading, but it was too soon. Just the last week or two I've been thinking it's probably about time to start over with it and wring some more juice out of it for me.
I only wish I could get it for my Kindle, that would be fantastic!
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In Pursuit: A Pilot's Guide to Online Air Combat (http://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Pilots-Guide-Online-Combat/dp/9197607703/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263346914&sr=8-10) is a good one, geared to the new flyer but also good tips for intermediate and advanced flyers.
Crutch's book is also good if you're new to flight sims, recommend it as well as the one above.
For intermediate to advanced flyers I would recommend Every Man A Tiger Mock-Combat Flying Techniques For Light Aircraft (http://www.amazon.com/Every-Mock-Combat-Flying-Techniques-Aircraft/dp/B000UDQXDK)
Lastly, the book everyone should have on their shelf, the Holy Bible of ACM, Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering (http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-Maneuvering-New/dp/0870210599/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263347193&sr=1-1)
In addition, I would highly recommend you go to www.NetAces.org (http://www.NetAces.org) and read all of the training guides put up there over the years. Pay special attention to Rocketman's Merge guides and if still available, DeadDuck's and Bullethead's E management and fighting guides.
ack-ack
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In Pursuit is downloadable as a pdf: Downloadable here: http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/
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yeah download the In Pursuit pdf and digest all of it while you're waiting for Fighter Combat to turn up. You should get everything in In Pursuit down before starting Fighter Combat, Shaw's book is alot more advanced.
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Ack,
The every mans a tiger book is unavailable at this time,looks interesting tho.....
Wish I could read books..... :o
:salute
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yeah download the In Pursuit pdf and digest all of it while you're waiting for Fighter Combat to turn up. You should get everything in In Pursuit down before starting Fighter Combat, Shaw's book is alot more advanced.
I've read every book listed in this thread, they will all help you to some degree.
I do have one big complaint about the book 'In Pursuit'. The author Johan Kylander encourages flight simers (particularly new sticks) to stay alive at all costs and even uses the phrase 'One pass, haul a**'. If you fly that way, only engaging when you hold all the advantages, you may land often and even score some kills. However, if you are ever caught without having all the advantages (which is at least 70% of the time in the MA) you are a clueless dead man.
I think the book 'Check Six' is much more informative than 'In Pursuit' but the latter is written a bit easier for the inexperienced to understand. It just so happens the author of 'Check Six' is currently a member of the Aces High community as well.
Don't be afraid to get shot down, just learn from your mistakes. Push the limits, flying timid will only increase the time it takes to improve.
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I've read every book listed in this thread, they will all help you to some degree.
I do have one big complaint about the book 'In Pursuit'. The author Johan Kylander encourages flight simers (particularly new sticks) to stay alive at all costs and even uses the phrase 'One pass, haul a**'. If you fly that way, only engaging when you hold all the advantages, you may land often and even score some kills. However, if you are ever caught without having all the advantages (which is at least 70% of the time in the MA) you are a clueless dead man.
I think the book 'Check Six' is much more informative than 'In Pursuit' but the latter is written a bit easier for the inexperienced to understand. It just so happens the author of 'Check Six' is currently a member of the Aces High community as well.
Don't be afraid to get shot down, just learn from your mistakes. Push the limits, flying timid will only increase the time it takes to improve.
This statement is true enough, although I would say for new guys "survival" is what will keep them in the game! For those who "head-long" into the masses, death will come quickly with very little knowledge gained. Survival at least for the new folks will help teach them thru "trial and error" some energy management skills and survival that will ultimately encourage them to "push-it" a little further.
Aces High has a "natural" learning curve that almost everyone experiences. Books and lesson will only help so much, as it is stick time and experience that are the real qualities that make a peep better in the end.
The "good sticks" in this game I believe forget their beginnings and filter their current view of the game thru a lenze FULL of experience, forgetting where the starting line actually was :aok
Encourage the new peeps to survive! With that survival will come interest and skill and competition! Please do not rob them of their "natural" learning curve ( a curve every other good stick has enjoyed) to get them on the express elevator to a style they cannot possibly comprehend so early in there "flight sim" experience! IMHO :aok
For new peeps "survival" does and should matter! IMO
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The "good sticks" in this game I believe forget their beginnings and filter their current view of the game thru a lenze FULL of experience, forgetting where the starting line actually was :aok
Encourage the new peeps to survive! With that survival will come interest and skill and competition!
I'm all for building confidence and encouraging them to do well, getting smacked around repeatedly doesn't help the new guy nor does it help HTC retain a customer. However, if they want to fly for years before they see any improvement, then (quote from the book) 'one pass, haul a**' is for them. My job as a Trainer is to make that ladder of ability have the fewest number of rungs the student wants to climb. I never encourage a regimen that is harder than they themselves ask for, nor do I force them to learn anything they do not wish to know.
For the record, I've never heard a student say, "I don't care if I improve, I just want to land cheap kills and get my name in lights." Most people will pick your brain until they can't absorb any more in one session, they then come back for another session once they have assimilated the past information and are implementing it. I'm not a good stick, but usually if you look hard enough you can always give someone advice no matter what their respective skill level is.
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I'm all for building confidence and encouraging them to do well, getting smacked around repeatedly doesn't help the new guy nor does it help HTC retain a customer. However, if they want to fly for years before they see any improvement, then (quote from the book) 'one pass, haul a**' is for them. My job as a Trainer is to make that ladder of ability have the fewest number of rungs the student wants to climb. I never encourage a regimen that is harder than they themselves ask for, nor do I force them to learn anything they do not wish to know.
For the record, I've never heard a student say, "I don't care if I improve, I just want to land cheap kills and get my name in lights." Most people will pick your brain until they can't absorb any more in one session, they then come back for another session once they have assimilated the past information and are implementing it. I'm not a good stick, but usually if you look hard enough you can always give someone advice no matter what their respective skill level is.
I agree with this, although I would say almost all new peeps don't define kills as cheap! Just the excitement that an array of "hitsprites" produces.
There is a saying I always refer to in my business, "you cannot teach experience"! This I've found holds true across the board! I can teach technique till the cows come home, but experience has to be experienced :aok My only point at entering this thread was to encourage the new peeps that read it that survival is not all bad and survival in its nature is a vehicle to learning, experience and success! <S>
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I feel the same way about In Pursuit, a little too much emphasis on survival as opposed to gaining experience actually fighting. But it's definitely worth reading, and well-written and engaging to boot.
I found a used copy of Every Man a Tiger on half.com - just started it but I'm really enjoying it so far. Thanks AckAck for tipping that one.
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Ack,
The every mans a tiger book is unavailable at this time,looks interesting tho.....
Wish I could read books..... :o
:salute
Too bad, it really has very good detailed instructions on some of the more advanced ACM maneuvers like the Cloverleaf.
ack-ack
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surviving is nothing to be downplayed for part of learning how to be a good 'stick' is learning to evaluate a situation and know if you can engage with little, some or total-nowayout danger.
sometimes there isnt anything more satisfying than to get into a bad sistuation but knowing when your escape window is about to close and slipping away to land safely and denying the other pilot(s) a kill.
that said, being able to record your fights to disect later is one of the better things about AH. the only thing I can think of to improve it is a formal method for pilots to send in a film to a review body. they would examine it and send the pilot a writeup back with an analysis of what they did to eventually lose the fight.
things like -
you entered the fight carrying external stores (bombs/DTs)
@ 3:32 you rolled right when you could have rolled left for a crossing shot
@ 4:15 you were target fixated on xxxx and didnt see yyyy sadling up on your six.
Things of that nature.
I have many of the writen works on the list and a number of others I have collected from other sources. each has value as each has a unique style and viewpoint. what I missed in one I find in another.
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If you fly that way, only engaging when you hold all the advantages, you may land often and even score some kills. However, if you are ever caught without having all the advantages (which is at least 70% of the time in the MA) you are a clueless dead man.
Read those two lines again, and you will realize you have just refuted your own complaint.
Telling a newbie to make "one pass, haul a**," isn't going to deny them yank-and-bank experience for the reason you just named- in the MA, (of any game, much less AH,) you're going to be set upon by a mob in a position of disadvantage 70% of the time, weather you try your best to avoid it or not. For every Runstang newb in the game there's an experienced stick in an La-7. News will have ample oppertunity to practice maneuvers like the scissors, rolling scissors, and even simple guns defense breaks without ever once picking a fight.
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Crutch brings up a good point - reviews. I've seen requests posted, and some of the comments (whilst joking/joshing etc) aren't really helpful. (Not a slam on anyone)
I get my squaddies to review periodic fights, either where I've done well and managed a couple of kills in a big furball, or where I've been on top of my opponent, only to die due to him either being better than me, or me screwing up.
Wurzel
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Read those two lines again, and you will realize you have just refuted your own complaint.
Telling a newbie to make "one pass, haul a**," isn't going to deny them yank-and-bank experience for the reason you just named- in the MA, (of any game, much less AH,) you're going to be set upon by a mob in a position of disadvantage 70% of the time, weather you try your best to avoid it or not. For every Runstang newb in the game there's an experienced stick in an La-7. News will have ample oppertunity to practice maneuvers like the scissors, rolling scissors, and even simple guns defense breaks without ever once picking a fight.
You have me confused. Del is telling him NOT to "one pass haul a**". If you never learn to turn and burn, or at least learn a few other defensive maneuvers OTHER THAN "one pass haul ass" then that 70% of the time you get in trouble your going to die a quick and uneventful death.
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Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering and check 6 are now ordered. Every man a tiger wasn't available so i'll have to check the book store. You guys have links to other places to find it other than amazon? I tried Ebooks but it wasn't there earlier today.
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half.com had about 8-10 copies last week.
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half.com THANKS shiv!
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If you want to go deeper into the mindset of a fighter pilot, kinda the Sun Tzu of pilots, check out "Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War".
It is a bio book, so there will be a lot of info outside the ACM world but its a good read.
Boyd is the guy that distilled what we do when we fight to the OODA loop.
Observe, Orient, Decide, Act;
Observe - look around and see.
Orient - (SA) where am I, when is the bad guy and where am I in relation to him.
Decide - what should I do?
Act - DO IT.
the faster you can process the loop the easier you force the other pilot to REact to your actions and you are inside of his thinking loop.
He also points out this loop is used in everything from driving your car on the freeway to how you manage your job.
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If you want to go deeper into the mindset of a fighter pilot, kinda the Sun Tzu of pilots, check out "Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War".
It is a bio book, so there will be a lot of info outside the ACM world but its a good read.
Boyd is the guy that distilled what we do when we fight to the OODA loop.
Observe, Orient, Decide, Act;
Observe - look around and see.
Orient - (SA) where am I, when is the bad guy and where am I in relation to him.
Decide - what should I do?
Act - DO IT.
the faster you can process the loop the easier you force the other pilot to REact to your actions and you are inside of his thinking loop.
He also points out this loop is used in everything from driving your car on the freeway to how you manage your job.
I can't find the link to it, maybe thorsim could link it again but it was to Boyd's manual that he wrote, pretty much the fighter's bible before Shaw's book. Excellent addition to anyone's ACM book library if they can find the link to it.
ack-ack
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Yup, found it. Just ordered shaws for the second time the first one I lost. I had a copy of another online sim book back in the airwarrior days. Trying to remember the name of it. Alot of things in the different ACM books I couldn't do very well in airwarrior. It seemed like the planes were too sluggish or I was just too impatient. Now I have an actual stick setup and a different mind set when I play. Thanks to the Op for resparking an old interest.
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I just found and ordered Every Man a Tiger at alibris.com. They had quite a few, some didn't look so great. Might be worth a look :salute
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Reading shaws book for the second time feels like reading with a new set of eyes.
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If you want to go deeper into the mindset of a fighter pilot, kinda the Sun Tzu of pilots, check out "Boyd: The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War".
It is a bio book, so there will be a lot of info outside the ACM world but its a good read.
Boyd is the guy that distilled what we do when we fight to the OODA loop.
Observe, Orient, Decide, Act;
Observe - look around and see.
Orient - (SA) where am I, when is the bad guy and where am I in relation to him.
Decide - what should I do?
Act - DO IT.
the faster you can process the loop the easier you force the other pilot to REact to your actions and you are inside of his thinking loop.
He also points out this loop is used in everything from driving your car on the freeway to how you manage your job.
I can't find the link to it, maybe thorsim could link it again but it was to Boyd's manual that he wrote, pretty much the fighter's bible before Shaw's book. Excellent addition to anyone's ACM book library if they can find the link to it.
ack-ack
ask and you shall receive ...
http://www.lulu.com/content/6166593
thor <<< always helpful ...
imo the best nuts and bolts read in the bunch although all are worth the investment of time,thought and energy ...
i have found a declassified ...
(FYI the AAS was the book the USAAF and others used for years officially and was a classified document i am sure some of the original still is)
PDF floating around free now and again but for less than 2 bucks this one is probably much easier to read printing wise ...
i second all the suggestions in the thread ...
i would also recommend if only for entertainments sake although many have combat insights ...
"no guts no glory"
"thunderbolt"
"nine lives"
"Fighter Squadron at Guadalcanal"
"I Flew for the Fuhrer"
they all paint great pictures and even though the "how to" aspects can be thin i have gleamed a lot from them on many levels including ACM, small air unit tactics, etc. etc. ...
there are tons more of books like these above and honestly i have never read one that was not applicable and valuable to virtual ACM.