Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Qrsu on January 07, 2010, 07:21:47 PM
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I'm not really asking for the comparison mathematically, mainly asking for opinions based on personal experience.
I've been flying the 109 for a while now but mainly the K-4. When I jump in a G-series I usually go without gondolas for fear of failing in a fight due to the extra weight/drag they induce. However, I have really not given the performance difference much thought. I find myself in and out of 109s simply because regardless of the fact that I love flying it, the gun packages usually frustrate me. K-4s aside, I have a really hard time bringing down opponents when shots land.
Now I know the obvious difference is that the gondolas provide a major lethality boost at the expense of acceleration, top speed, climb rate and turning ability... but is it a LARGE expense? Just wanted to know some of your thoughts on this - opinions and mathematical analysis are both welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Cursed
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Qrsu,
Unfortunately the G series either runs the risk of too little firepower or too much. I personally only take the gondies when Buff hunting, and I'm probably not going to get into a maneuvering fight. The gondies to me personally do make a big difference in my fighting style, but I tend to be a T&B guy as you know. Now to the B&Z types it might be worth the penalties for the snapshot hitting power.
:salute
BigRat
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I very rarely take the gondolas. In a G-14 with it's 30mm cannon I generally do not see the need for additional firepower (unless I know I will go after several formation of buffs at low-medium altitude with no or few escorts), and in a G-2 I do feel they take away way too much performance (and against fighters or a single formation of buffs the nose mounted MG 151 is sufficient for me)
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The only time I took gondies on my G-2 more often were I imposed a ENY 30 limit on me (just for fun & perks), so no other, heavy armed fighters were available to me for buff hunting or an attack role.
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I never take the gondies either except when hunting bombers & even then I hesitate. It limits/reduces your main strength in the G models, climb rate.
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I never take gondolas if I'm expecting enemy fighters. There's a reason that photographs of later series Gustavs with gondolas aren't so common.
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I almost always take them in the G2 but never do in the G14 as the 30mm is fine by itself. I don't really plan ahead as to what I'll run into and yes, the gondies hurt performance in a turn fight but I also fly almost everything with a full fuel load and the biggest gun package I can strap on. I just think the G2 performs well enough that I can give away some performance for the extra snapshot firepower. I also don't think 3x20mm is a particularly great buff package. I'd rather have a single tater. Your mileage may vary.
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I did this a while back for TracerX for FSO comparison...
109G2 with and without gondolas:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/109g2_gondolaschart.jpg)
Now, consider that the average 109 WITH gondolas can still give most MA late war monsters a run for their money, this chart was drawn up for historical matchups, where the performance gaps were much narrower between friend/foe.
However, please note that this is just climb rate (for formation purposes), loss in level speed is equally noticable.
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but I also fly almost everything with a full fuel load and the biggest gun package I can strap on.
Why?
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Why?
I take full fuel because I hate to run out and I take the big gun packages so I'm set for buff killing should I run across one (or more). My hit% is generally in the 10-15% range so my ammo goes a long way. I hate to rtb without several kills and like to target 45 min on a fuel load if possible. It allows me to climb out, fly and fight, change destinations if need be, suffer a fuel leak and still rtb. I also generally don't like taking drop tanks due to the increased drag (even with them dropped on some planes).
There are exceptions to this but as a general rule that's what I like and am used to.
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Howdy Q, I never take the gondies in the MA. Only in a senerio where I will be bnzing bombers.
Anyway for me the lack of handling is the No go for me. Fighting a good stick the little percentage it cost you is not worth it. It does have enough guns to kill. You just have to work on your gunnery in it. Ask grizz when you see him he seems to never miss.
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Howdy Q, I never take the gondies in the MA. Only in a senerio where I will be bnzing bombers.
Anyway for me the lack of handling is the No go for me. Fighting a good stick the little percentage it cost you is not worth it. It does have enough guns to kill. You just have to work on your gunnery in it. Ask grizz when you see him he seems to never miss.
I used to think grizz had heat seeking tators, but then I met VIOLATOR.
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Thanks for the responses; I don't think I'll be changing much in the MA. I also kinda posed the question to receive a benchmark for usage in the upcoming FSO...
I tooled around in the TA with a heavy-laden G6 (Gondolas and a DT) just to see how it felt and noticed a real handicap right away... after dropping the tank it seemed as though the rack and gondolas still prove to cause more harm than good. I am not even going to embarrass myself in the MA :lol.
I can't remember the last time I've upped from a field to hunt buffs. I rarely succeed in escaping without a pilot wound, blown engine etc anyway, regardless if I kill them or not... it's just not my thing. For furballing, I either take a G-6 up and fail to connect hard enough with the 20mm or a G-14/K-4 and miss all my 30mm shots. :D
Anyway, not here to complain - just wanted everyone's take on it. I gotta work harder is all. Thanks guys!
Cursed
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IMO, the drop tank rack is a no-brainer: if you want the DT take it!
It's not going to make or break your performance.
The gondolas are truly a matter of taste/style. How you like to fly, and how you end up flying.
Take them out for a few sorties. Dogfight with them. If you like them, use them. If you'd rather not, don't.
The extra firepower they give is worth it, sometimes.
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IMO, the drop tank rack is a no-brainer: if you want the DT take it!
It's not going to make or break your performance.
I beg to differ. One of my favorite examples is the 109K vs P-51D. Without the DT rack you can run away from the P-51, with it you might be run down. The classic question is why would you want to run from a P-51D in the 109K? Obviously, when his two or three friends arrive for the gang.
Being able to extend away from fights where you would be extremely outnumbered is not an ability that should be eschewed lightly.
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Just take the G14 with single tator for perk farming, K4 when your getting down to business :devil :salute
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Now I know the obvious difference is that the gondolas provide a major lethality boost at the expense of acceleration, top speed, climb rate and turning ability... but is it a LARGE expense? Just wanted to know some of your thoughts on this - opinions and mathematical analysis are both welcome.
Here is an EM diagram overlay for the G2 with and without Gondolas, just so you can quantify the relative difference they make to speed, sustained and instantaneous turn rates, turn radius and corner.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/G2Gondolas.gif)
However, I produced that comparison in 2002, but relatively speaking, I think it will still give you a good impression of the price you pay for the extra fire power.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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[Hijack] And just what is all this 109 talk Qrsu? Don't tell me you've converted! ;) [/Hijack]
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Thank you for posting the graph, Badboy. Yours have always been an excellent resource to study and compare.
Heya Cactus. Not really converted -- I bounce from plane to plane all the time, but after two years I've finally narrowed it down to 2. (I think!) :)
Cursed