Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: leonid on April 26, 2000, 03:17:00 PM
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All you of Western affection, prepare for dark days. The time of Sorrow shall soon fall upon you! Woe unto those who tarry below 5,000 meters for they shall know the wrath of the 9! They shall rend their shirts upon their chest, pull viciously at their hair, and the sound of a multitude of gnashing teeth will fill the air like locusts. Verily, I say unto thee, the day of the 9 will be upon the Western heathens, and they shall know the meaning of suffering as not even an F4U-C could ever possibly unleash!
Prepare! for the Day of the 9!!!
The opinions expressed here are strictly those of the anonymous prophet that spoke through leonid's brain, and do not in any way or form represent those of 5 GIAP, unless, of course, if by chance, they do.
(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-04-2000).]
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ROFLMAO
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"Prepare to die Earthlings"
--Plan Yak9 from Outerspace
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Leonid, my friend ...
are you talking about the prototype or the production model?
{GATT ducks, runs away, slips and falls badly)
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Lets put it this way Gatt (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
If the AH Yak-9U does 435mph then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
If it comes in at 417 mph.... then I may have to buy a case of ammunition and find a tall tower near the HTC offices and scream "American Elitist Pony Conspiracy !!!!" as I ... errr say "hi" to Pyro (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Muhahahhaahaha
Could someone hand me that bottle of Prozac?
{Just kidding for those of you thats humor impaired}
Seriously, I do hope we get to see the -UT armament options, since there were more T's produced than F4U-1C's, and I believe also more than the 30mm armed 190A8's but I'm not sure. And I don't expect to see a seperate variant (-UT) out of a -9U.
What kind of liquor do you guys at HTC like, agian?
Oh and SuperFly something in a paint scheme like this would be really cool, and yes I know thats a Yak-3, instead of a -9U
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/ah/yak-3.jpg)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 04-26-2000).]
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Leonid-
You forgot the part about the "throwing of ash upon their heads, and woe unto the mothers that suckle their young." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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5ooo meters!!! who flies belo 5000 meters in AH ???
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well normally I would not be scared but hearing that from leonid scares the crap outa me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
just one more thing for the poor P-38 driver to deal with (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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YES! And thus my CHARIOT shall fall upon the wicked and my REVENGE shall be at hand!
Woe betide those who come before me...
for they shall know the meaning of sorrow
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Shotgun,
Thats 5000 meter bud! Multiply that by 3 to get feet (approxmiatly, actually I think it is 1 meter is = 2.79 feet) SO your looking at approx. 15000 feet.
Gorf out!
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And the Ponies and Thunderbolts didst loitereth at 30K, ever outpacing the Yak-9U -- chosen plane of the gods -- and, as the Yak's fuel supply didst dwindleth its godless pilots doth descend to again settle into the busom of the Rodina... and it was THEN that the cowardly Thunderbolts and Ponies didst dropeth out of the heavens onto the hapless, fuel-less Yaks, and with heady abandon didst they dispatchth the Yaks.
Oh... and it was good. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Snakeyes,
Now if we could GET the THUNDERBOLT!!..(SIGH)
Gorf
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1 meter = 3.281 feet
So 5,000 meters is about 16,400 ft. True most fights start about 20k now, but I think the Yak will do ok.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 04-26-2000).]
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Gatt, LOL!!!
SnakeEyes & Other Western Heathen:
Two things will suck you down to the ground:
1) APCs carrying troops to your bases.
2) Yak-9Us opening up on you as you dive upon those APCs.
Woe unto the western heathens! The Day of Sorrow NEARS!!! The Day of the 9!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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I'll get you leonid and your little yak too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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You know, Citabria, those Yakovlev fighters snap roll even faster than the La-5FN (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) And they do it best in the other direction(Klimov engines rotate in the same direction as the Tiffie's).
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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thou shalt be boomed and zoomed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ok, enough for the pro communist propaganda roadkille!
The question is, what it can really do?
- Turn?
- Climb?
- Speed (low/mid/high)?
- Fuel capability?
Just the facts, ma'am!
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)
I want to believe! Fw 190F-8 / G-8 / A-5 to Aces High!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Quite simply the Yak 9U was generally regarded as the finest Russian fighter of the war. Some specs I have are: Top speed 434 mph @ 16,405 ft (5000m) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Ceiling 34,500 ft, range 550 miles, armed with 1 20 mm ShVAK and 2 12.7 mm (50 cal) BS machine guns. Could also carry 2 220 lb bombs. Roll rate was impressive. Armor (especially in 9T varient) was provided, and in addition this plane had metal spars vs wood in the Yak 7.
There was also a tank busting 9T varient that could carry a variety of stores.
Total production of all Yak 9 varients was 16,769 aircraft.
The great thing is that with minor skin modifications HTC can also have a Yak-7.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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LOL SG I can't remember the last time I fought above 5000 meters. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ooooh, and god forbid if HTC give the -9U the armament loadouts of the -9UT:
- N-37, B-20S x 2 (37mm, and two 20mm cannons)
- NS-23, B-20S x 2 (23mm, and two 20mm cannons)
- B-20 x 3 (three 20mm cannons)
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Jochen (with the courtesy of Vermillion):
(http://web.mountain.net/~arringto/ah/yakchart.gif)
Take a look at time to 5000mt and wing load. The old WarBirds Yak-3 syndrome will hit me soon ....
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The old WarBirds Yak-3 syndrome will hit me soon...
Why wasn't it more popular in WB? I mean in one year, I remember seeing Yak about 5 times in MA and usually they were easy kills because mostly newbies flew them?
Personally I liked the plane but overall but the ammo load was pitifully small. I guess this will be same in AH too.
I think that generally hitting enemies is harder in AH than in WB. If this is really the case then Yak 9 won't become uber plane simply because most pilots can't cope with low ammo load. In time we will se how it goes.
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)
I want to believe! Fw 190F-8 / G-8 / A-5 to Aces High!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Jochen, old buddy,
the WB Yak-3 was (ehm, is) a very good fighter, fast, good acceleration and climb rate, very good visibility from the cockpit. The main problems were a rather slow roll rate (can Verm and/or Leonid help us on this topic?) and the light ammo load.
At least Yak-9U drivers will understand what a 109 pilot needs to learn about gunnery and ammo saving (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anyway: Bring the G.55 "Centauro" to Aces High!
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/G.55.jpg)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 04-27-2000).]
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gatt,
I don't remember the WB Yak-3 having a slow roll rate. Actually, it was above average.
Yes, I think the basic armament for the Yak-9U was 120x 20mm shells, and 170x 12.7mm UBS rounds for the two mgs. Not much of a load, but then I find it easier to hit targets here, than in WB.
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Leonid, you hit that on the button can't wait to strap myself into the Yak-9. Let's show them what a real stall fight is all about. And for u guys that feel u need alot of ammo in a Yak, u dont because u will be shooting from point blank range (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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mmm not much ammo, looks like it's bout the same as the 109 series not?
As I recall 20mm in the 109 has 150 rounds.
Don't think ammoload is going to be a big problem for the 5th GIAP (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
GO GO GO russian friends !
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BEE(JENG)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/109bee.gif)
'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit'
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 04-27-2000).]
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I agree with Leonid, I don't remember the Yak-3 as having bad roll, not great like a 190, but not real bad either.
Why wasn't it popular in WB's? Weak guns, and small ammo load had alot to do with it, especially in the world of the Spitfire Mk-UFO (thank God we dont' have that here). Honestly though, I think it was more the fact that it being a Russian plane, and most of our pilots are American, British, and then the Luftwobbles (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) it just doesn't have that "nationalistic mystique" that draws many of us to planes like the P-51, P-38, Fw190, or the Me109.
To me the Yak-3 was my favorite plane. Sure you might not win every fight due to the weak guns, but it was rare that you couldn't get home to complete a sortie if you flew smart.
A couple of difference's between the Yak-3 and what I expect to see out of the Yak-9U. For one the -9 is considerably larger than the -3, more in proportion to other fighters, so it won't be that infamous minature target the -3 is. But on the plus side, the -9 has larger wings so I expect it too manuever better than the -3.
Like Leonid, I really hope that Pyro includes the -UT armament options (around 500 -UT's produced, of the total 4,000 -U's manufactured). It would really allow the Yak to compete lethality wise with the rest of the cannon birds in the arena, and only knocks off about 3-4mph off the top speed.
It would still have a very small ammo load (no spray and pray -1C or 190 here), but with all the guns being mounted in the nose it would allow you a good kill if you can get it on target.
I don't think I would personally have much use for the x1 NS-37 + x2 B-20's setup, just too much weight and too hard to hit with the 37mm. But I believe both the x1 NS-23 + x2 B-20's, or the x3 B-20's, setup would be quite useful. With my preference going to the 23mm option, since it is more lethal.
Guess we shall wait and see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"And Death shall ride a Pale Horse..."
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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"GO GO GO russian friends !"
Wait a second! Does both 5 GIAP and JG 2 fly for Knight? Isn't that a conflict of interest?
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Does this mean more Spit and G-10 food??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 04-27-2000).]
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methinks we got the new uber ride in the arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
and its red! hehe
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What are the performance specs for the non-prototype version of the Yak-9U?
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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No way it will upset arena balance. It will however upset P51 and P38 pilots. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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yeah those 190 and 109 guys wont have any trouble with it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
la5 will kick yak 9's butt
hehe
you get the idea (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bring it on though
I love a good challenge (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Yak-9U Production Model
Speed at SL = 357 mph
Speed at Altitude (16,500 ft)= 417.5
Climb to 16,400 ft (5km) = 5.0
Turn time = 20
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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"No way it will upset arena balance. It will however upset P51 and P38 pilots"
A plane has never done that to me. It's always been the pilot behind the control stick. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Some (quite a few actually)pilots you could put in a Feiseler Storch with a rifle and they would still give me fits. Others you can give 'em an ME-262 to and even I could still shoot them down.
-Westy
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Citabria, Westy-
Perhaps what I should say is that the Yak-9 doesn't offer the combination of performance/firepower that say, the F4U-1C did when it was introduced. While the Yak's performance (according to the numbers) should be superlative, it will not have an overwhelming gun package. Your rank-and-file pilot won't kill with impunity, they will have to develop marksman skills to make the meager ammo load count.
But let's compare to the 51 and 38. How do either excel above the Yak? It won't be in turn if the wingloading numbers are to be believed. Acceleration? Doubtful. Climb? Nope. 1,500 hp on nearly 7,000lbs loaded means great initial climb and acceleration. As I look at the numbers, the Yak starts to look like a Spit IX you can't run from. The only possible advantage the 51 and 38 might have that I can see is zoom climb. I suppose we'll have to wait and see on that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Really, my remark was in jest. Funny though, I got the top advocates of the 38 and 51 in one post! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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In reality, if you have a good Yak Pilot and good 109, 190, 51, 38 pilot most fights end up in a stalemate. Cause generally those planes will B&Z a yak, and the yak will escape and try to manevour onto your six but you will extend away. This could go on forever had we an endless supply of fuel. But as Leonid said be prepared as you have never seen a plane stall turn like a yak, and I dont wanna hear the famous that plane is hacked statement....YAK's SU Air superiority at it's finest...
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Well, the P-51 has a much higher ammo load, can carrying a wide variety of external ordinance, has twice the range, and will outperform the Yak over 25k. Otherwise in a pure air to air role, the Yak is slightly better.
The P-38? Well except for its superiority in the Air to Ground role, if a P-38 pilot spots a Yak-9U he better start praying and rubbing his lucky rabbits foot, if he isn't over 30k ft. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I wonder what the comparison looks like if the P-51 only carries the same amount of fuel as a fully-gassed-up Yak-9U (range was about 500 miles, right). I suspect that the Yak is still the better pure A2A fighter, but at least you're comparing apples to apples at that point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Bear in mind that the latter VVS iron were built in response to their immediate enemies, the Luftwaffe. Thus, they were designed to outperform their German counterparts at what they did best - Boom 'n Zoom. Granted, it was only within the low to medium altitude range, but combat never got much above 16,000 feet there anyway. So, in a general sense the late-war VVS iron were better E-fighters than the main Luftwaffe fighters (Soviet aircraft were generally more maneuverable horizontally than Luftwaffe fighters throughout the war).
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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hmm according to gatt´s chart a yak9u with ~6% more wing surface and 25% less power is faster compared to the G10?
grmmpffffff:-)
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niklas,
The Klimov 107 inline engine that powered the Yak-9U had a normal maximum power of 1500hp. It's military maximum power was more like 1650-1700hp. I think the Yak-9U's top speed was with military power, not normal power.
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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D'oh, never mind...
[This message has been edited by Stiglr (edited 04-28-2000).]
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a question: what´s the difference between a yak3u and a yak9u?
at http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/ (http://hep2.physics.arizona.edu/~savin/ram/)
i only found something about a yak3u. Did this guy make a mistake, is this the yak9u?
[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 04-29-2000).]
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Niklas,
The Klimov 107 inline engine that powered the Yak-9U had a normal maximum power of 1500hp. It's military maximum power was more like 1650-1700hp. I think the Yak-9U's top speed was with military power, not normal power.
</B>
Well, that makes it even more of a mystery, since the WEP on the 109 is just about 30% of its total capability, at least in this game.
So it is a little lighter, but has a larger wing area, and an engine that has 500hp less, but it will still outfly my Über G10 in what the G10 does best; climb and speed?
Sounds to me like this plane can seriously upset the balance in this game. As someone mentioned, it sounds like a Spit that cvan turn, z&b AND outrun other fighters, at least below 16k (and let's face it, most dogfights/furballs end up below that alt quite quickly).
I don't want to give up my g10 just because a dweeb plane is introduced (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). At the moment, the Spit, n1k, LA5, C.202/5 etc really outturn the G10. Some have a good top speed too, or keep their e very well. But, once such a plane loses its initiative, the G10 pilot can climb away and start pounding back, using the areas where the aircraft is superior.
If the Yak is introduced in the way that some people suggest it should, the G10 will have no areas where it is better, or at least areas where the difference matters.
Oh well, </rant>
--
StSanta
II/JG2
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I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet. Let's see how things shake out.
FWIW, I think the G10 will still occupy the "King of Climb" category. As for the average guy cranking out kills in the Yak, well... somehow I doubt that too. It just doesn't carry enough ammo to do that. Of course, a guy that knows how to fly it may scare the living hell out of you... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) That is what makes it an interesting plane to introduce IMHO- it has potential, but if you don't take the time to learn what it can do you can't really expect to fully exploit it.
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heheh find it funny when people think they can't kill anymore when a plane comes out that's better than their fav ride ..
my Fav. ride is the F4U1-D .. almost every other plane is better than it so you just have to fly SMARTER than your opponent (too bad there is too many smart opponents in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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Kieren you are right, the Yak is a very easy plane to fly and a very hard plane to master. It takes considerable time to learn the various techniques in order to turn it into a real Yakrobat. Been practicing myself with the LaV using rudder stalls to prep myself for that day when it arrives (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Cleaner (edited 04-29-2000).]
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niklas: Yak 3U is a different plane. Yak 3 was the interceptor version (Anti fighter only) of the Yak-9. The Yak-3U was the all metal, VK-107&108 plane that came out in April 1945. It was an extremely small tri-cannon metal skin plane that could travel in excess of 450 mph at less than 20k. With the exception of a P-47M it was probably the fastest prop plane in WWII, though neither of those two saw air to air combat (With the exception of the P-47M chasing down V2 rockets!). Plus the P-47M required being well over 20,000 ft to achieve it's speed. I believe the critical alt for the Vk-108 was more like 18-21k. Far more usefull in combat.
The 9U however, was widely produced and fought by the end of the war. it is very comparable to the 109 G-10 and K models and the P-51 in performance and speed. The difference being mostly that it is lighter than either and much less capable of fighting over 20k.
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No plane ever chased V-2 rockets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
V-1, now that is another story.
As for Yak, yes, I am afraid of that plane.
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Stsanta: no offence but the things you just said were EXACTLY the reasons why the 9U was built. Russian's needed a comparable plane and the 9u was the result. Your G10 will still outgun it with 30mm, and still outclimb it (your wep should be more effective, especially with alt). Otherwise it is a comparable plane. Slighter more nimble but also smaller and lighter.
9U is hardly going to be an "uber" ride. at least no more than the G10 is now. and my guess is the first few tries where people find the Yak exploding under fire due to it's weaker airframe will kill their enthusiasm. if that doesn't running out of ammo should help.
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If the Yak is introduced in the way that some people suggest it should, the G10 will have no areas where it is better, or at least areas where the difference matters
LOL! If thats not bending the facts to fit your own agenda, what is.
Max Speed of G10 at altitude: 452 at 19,700ft.
Max Speed of Yak-9U at altitude: 435 at 18,000ft.
So a 17 mph differential in maximum speeds, better acceleration isn't a substantial or advantageous difference??
Santa, I do believe you and the elves have been smoking some of that "Funny Mistletoe" lately (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Duckw wrote:
heheh find it funny when people think they can't kill anymore when a plane comes out that's better than their fav ride..
Duck, it's not so much that the plane is better than my favourite ride, it is that it might make the game unbalanced. In a 1v1 with equally skilled pilots, it is quite possible to get into a stalemate (say a 51 with some alt on a 109). Still the respective strengths and weaknesses of the planes can be exploited. Now, if you have a plane that has only strengths compared to another, even if the 109 pilot is more skilled, the outcome is likely to be to his disadvantage.
And I agree, there is a stunning number of very good pilots in AH. That's why I am worried; the 109 is not the best ride in the game. It compresses easily, turns like a pig, has relatively poor armament, must be trimmed more than other planes and so forth. Still, these weaknesses are balanced by superiority in other areas.
Gah, the thought of a Spit that can outrun ya scares me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Sorrow wrote:
Stsanta: no offence but the things you just said were EXACTLY the reasons why the 9U was built. Russian's needed a comparable plane and the 9u was the result. Your G10 will still outgun it with 30mm, and still outclimb it (your wep should be more effective, especially with alt). Otherwise it is a comparable plane. Slighter more nimble but also smaller and lighter.
No offense taken. But you have an aircraft that outturns everything, climbs well, dives easily with the g10 and has a better armament and max speed.
If the difference in climb rate is neglible, well, then I'd say we have a new relaxed realism plane. The Spit is bad enough as it is, but imagine it on steroids and with a z&b kit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
No 109 pilot I know of use the 30mm for anything other than buff bonking/panzer plonking, due to its slow rate of fire and very low muzzle velocity, so it will be outgunned as well.
Maybe it will be as the 109; hard to learn but effective once mastered. I am just worried when I hear stories about a Spit on steroids (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
--
StSanta
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quote:------------------
LOL! If thats not bending the facts to fit your own agenda, what is.
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Well, reread what I wrote. Just reread it.
Something about "some people suggest" or something like that. Implementation.
quote:---------------------
Max Speed of G10 at altitude: 452 at 19,700ft.
Max Speed of Yak-9U at altitude: 435 at 18,000ft.
So a 17 mph differential in maximum speeds, better acceleration isn't a substantial or advantageous difference??
------------------------
Oh sure is, if this is the way it is implemented. But while most fights start at around 20-25k, they rather quickly come down to around 10-12k I have found. If the Yak can climb about as well, and retains E better, the maximum speed would really be irrelevant if the 109 would wish to fight.
Another are of interest is the max speed at sea level. Your own numbers show the Yak has a definitive edge here, and low level speed is sort of important, since most will dive to extend/get away from an enemy, which means that eventually, the fight ends on the deck.
quote:---------------
Santa, I do believe you and the elves have been smoking some of that "Funny Mistletoe" lately
---------------------
Vermillion, I think you have had your head placed inside another area of your body in an anatomically impossible way and the fumes are affecting your cognitive processes.
I came into this debate with some worries, not with an agenda. Don't assume I have some. Give others the benefit of the doubt now and then, chill out, take the cotton out of your mouth and put them into your ears and what other idioms there are.
I hate to start a mudslinging debate, but I hate being patronized even more. RAM has a notorious temper and I'm just a wee bit behind it.
--
StSanta of EAC
II/JG2
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Guys, the Yak-9U is no jet. It does have limitations, like:
- poor hi altitude performance.
- good turn, but nothing like a Spitfire, or even a N1K2.
- weak-average airframe. This plane won't be taking a lot of hits.
All planes have weaknesses, even an Me-262. I'm just glad that finally the VVS have an aircraft that will have parity with the P-51D, F4U, and Bf109G-10.
OTOH, if HTC see fit to include the -9UT variant with this model, then you'll have an aircraft with the option of a massive salvo weight (salvo weight is the amount of mass an aircraft's armament can unleash per unit time). With the NS-37 and two B-20 configuration the Yak-9UT had a salvo weight of 6kg/sec. Compare that to an F4U-1C/Typhoon at 6.96kg/sec, and an Fw190A-8 six-gun configuration at 5.53kg/sec.
Finally, a German experten by the name of Walter Wolfrum(Wolfrun?) made an interesting comment, regarding the -9U. He said, "The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and the Russian Yak-9U. Both of these types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability." Wolfrum was part of JG 52. He flew 423 sorties, and shot down 137 aircraft, all in the Russian front.
2,500 Yak-9Us saw combat during WWII, while 282 -9UTs were produced before war's end.
Am I gloating? No, I'm not. But I sure feel good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 04-29-2000).]
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Well Santa its quite obvious you have an agenda whether you claim too or not.
Call me anything you wish or insult at will, I don't care and will just laugh. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh sure is, if this is the way it is implemented. But while most fights start at around 20-25k, they rather quickly come down to around 10-12k I have found. If the Yak can climb about as well, and retains E better, the maximum speed would really be irrelevant if the 109 would wish to fight.
How is it irrelevant? You control the fight at will. If it goes bad, extend, and make a decision from there. If you arguement was correct, how does a P-51 beat a Spitfire? The Pony does it by flying smart, and playing to his strengths.
Another are of interest is the max speed at sea level. Your own numbers show the Yak has a definitive edge here, and low level speed is sort of important, since most will dive to extend/get away from an enemy, which means that eventually, the fight ends on the deck.
Not if you fight your aircraft to its fullest, and only fly to the strengths of your aircraft.
The G10 is faster from about 15k up. So thats where you should fight. If the fight starts to decend below 15k, the G10 pilot better decide real quick if he wants to continue the fight to the death, or run away like a little screaming girl to fight another day(tm Juzz) while he still has a speed advantage [Something I am also quite familiar with as a P-51 pilot].
And its your choice, you don't have to dive all the way to the deck during an extension or escape. Escape at the altitude where you plane has the advantage. Its a common mistake many pilots make, and its quite unneeded unless the other pilot has more E or a much faster plane.
If I'm flying a P-51 and am 1 v 1 a Typhoon, I'm not going to try and run on the deck, he will eat me up. If I think I need to run, I am going to do it above 10k, while I still have a chance.
See this is a Sim, and the thing about a Sim is that planes have strengths and weakness's you can't have it all. If you play to its strengths you generally win, if you don't you lose.
Yes the Yak-9U matches up very well on paper to the G10. Thats the facts of history. We will wait and see how it matchs up in AH.
I will leave you with two quotes from very knowledgeable Luftwaffe pilots.
The best fighters I met in Combat were the American P-51 Mustang and the Russian Yak-9U. Both of these types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the "K". The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and manueverability.
Walter Wolfrun, Bf109G Combat Ace
and
Whereas the German Bf109G and Fw190 models were equal to any of the aforementioned Soviet Fighter Models in all respects, this cannot be said of the Soviet Yak-3, which made its first appearance at the front in the late Summer of 1944. This aeroplane was faster, more manueverable and had better climbing capabilities that the Bf109G and Fw190, to which it was inferior only in armament.
by Lieutenant General Walter Schwabedissen, in his book, The Russian Air Force in the Eyes of the German Commanders
Oh, and incidentally, the Yak-9U was superior to the Yak-3 in most regards, until the later model Yak-3's were equipped with the Vk-107 engine.
Get upset all you want, but it sounds like you don't like the fact that the Yak-9U could historically fight the Bf109G10 at its own game (climb and acceleration) and have a shot at winning.
[LOL!! Leonid, we were typing our messages at the same time, and come up with the same quote]
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 04-29-2000).]
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"or run away like a little screaming girl to fight another day(tm Juzz)"
Eh? Where's that coming from?
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Originally posted by Hristo:
No plane ever chased V-2 rockets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Not entirely true. I read an account of a Spit pilot attacking a V-2 as it launched. He was getting hits when it dawned on him that maybe it wasn't such a good idea for all that rocket fuel, and warhead, to explode right in front of him.
715A
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No offense taken. But you have an aircraft that outturns everything, climbs well, dives easily with the g10 and has a better armament and max speed. If the difference in climb rate is neglible, well, then I'd say we have a new relaxed realism plane. The Spit is bad enough as it is, but imagine it on steroids and with a z&b kit . No 109 pilot I know of use the 30mm for anything other than buff bonking/panzer plonking, due to its slow rate of fire and very low muzzle velocity, so it will be outgunned as well. Maybe it will be as the 109; hard to learn but effective once mastered. I am just worried when I hear stoa Spit on steroids
A few points here:
The 9U will climb close to a G10 but only when low. Once over 15k it will be a matter of who has WEP as the G10 has much more power and the Yak will need WEP to keep close.
Dive: I cannot see the Yak out-diving a G10. The Yak is just too damn light. Your talking a big difference in body weight here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And further- while a 109 is almost uncontrollable after 400 mph IAS the Yak will likely be very fragile at over +/-7 or 8 G. Thus a sudden pullout would leave the pilot riding a lawndart. I think the 109 will do fine diving away from a 9U at high speeds.
Armament: I am not sure what your reading StSanta. The Yak 9U (loadouts will very) will have most likely the 1 20mm cannon & 2 ShKAS 12.7 mm MG. Other loadouts are along the lines of a larger cannon but reflect the same problems of a G10 with 30mm. In fact 23mm-37mm are probably worse than 30mm that way. In any case the arms on a Yak 9U will be very comparable to a G10. It most certainly does NOT outgun it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for the spit comment: the plane is NOT a T&B plane. It wasn't really designed for it. However it WILL spin circles around most any other late war planes... for maybe 1 or two revolutions. This is the Yak's strong point. Unlike a 109 it can turn well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) In that case it is like a spit IX. However, if you think spray&pray dweebs will use it you are mistaken. The plane will be very unforgiving to poor aim with it's 120 20mm and 150x2 12.7 MG. It will be very manueverable and acrobatic.. but not at high G where it will flex (can that BE modelled??) and very little damage will pulverize it's wood body. At least unlike a Yak-3 it has metal spars and should be able to handle some hi G without snapping wings (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think you will see allot of it at first.. then PPL will move back to planes they can survive in.
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Vermillion
You've irritated me. I came here with some worries, and many other in the community had the courtesy to consider my worries just that, worries, and not an "agenda".
Now, when you come on with such a patronizing and insulting tone, it really makes it clear who has "an agenda". As such, I figure it'll be a discussion we've both had before and ends it here.
Thanks to you other guys for providing useful info.
--StSanta of EAC
II/JG2
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Juzz, back in the beta someone start the saying that Pony drivers tend to "Run away screaming like little girls", and I thought it was you that came up with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Was just trying to give credit where credit was due. Hell, I liked the saying and I fly Pony's mostly.
Maybe it was Weazel.. I don't know, my mind is deteriorating with old age (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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A question or point or two...
1) Is there any particular reason why everyone keeps using the Yak-9U prototype numbers, rather than those for the production models? Not a troll... honest Q.
2) The litmus test for adding/not adding an aircraft shouldn't be whether it outclasses someone's favorite aircraft.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Yes Santa, I have an agenda. I want each and every aircraft modeled as closely as we can get to their capabilities in real life, and to produce aircraft matchups in a historic manner. Anyone here can tell you that I have had that agenda since day 1 of the open beta. I have written posts both for and against, aircraft from every nationality in the game. I have no "dedicated ride" or a preferred nationality. I love them all.
So in one of your first posts in this forum, you immediately jump in with a rant, by your own admission
Oh well, </rant>
--
StSanta
II/JG2
and immediately started telling everyone how it was going to be a "dweeb plane"
I don't want to give up my g10 just because a dweeb plane is introduced
I then respond with a laugh and a joke, while supporting my position with hard numbers.
You then proceed to tell me I have my head stuck up my rectal orifice. And go into another rant (most of which wasn't factual as Sorrow and myself pointed out) about how the G10 will be inferior to the Yak.
So how should I have reacted to you? I have been polite in every post, and responded in at least a moderate manner to your quite hostile replies.
If that irritates you .... well if that irritates you I'm wasting my breath and nothing is gonna change your opinon.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 04-30-2000).]
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<Quote>
Yes Santa, I have an agenda. I want each and every aircraft modeled as closely as we can get to their capabilities in real life, and to produce aircraft matchups in a historic manner. Anyone here can tell you that I have had that agenda since day 1 of the open beta. I have written posts both for and against, aircraft from every nationality in the game. I have no "dedicated ride" or a preferred nationality. I love them all.
</quote>
I believe that agenda is shared by all of us, so that is not really a surprise. It was not the agenda I was referring to though. You made a patronizing and disrespectful post, and *assumed*, even though you've read very little of what I have produced, that I had a hidden agenda, something along with the lines of not introducing the Yak. or are you arguing that this is not the case?
<Quote>
So in one of your first posts in this forum, you immediately jump in with a rant, by your own admission
quote:
Oh well, </rant>
--
StSanta
II/JG2
</quote>
Now, this would indicate that when I rant, I say so. Furthermore, you're comitting a logical fallacy when you assume that one rant in one post means all posts will be rants. It's akin to saying "you were serious when you told me about the earthquake, so you gotta be serious when you speak about belief in Invisible Pink Unicorns.
So I wonder why you didn't see the post as what it was, worries, and instead assumed that the poster had some hidden agenda (other than Death To All Spits, I have very few in this game).
<quote>
and immediately started telling everyone how it was going to be a "dweeb plane"
quote:
I don't want to give up my g10 just because a dweeb plane is introduced
I then respond with a laugh and a joke, while supporting my position with hard numbers.
</quote>
Now you're reading this with coloured glasses. Read it again. "I don't want to give up my g10 because a dweeb plane is introduced.".
A dweeb plane. A F4u with the handling of a modern day F-16. You just said yourself that you wish to be true to history, and when I say "dweeb plane", I mean a plane that handles unnaturally well. Again you assume what I mean with dweeb plane. At the moment, I don't think there are any *real* dweeb planes in AH, even though I think the Spits hold E in turns a little bit too well, but that's my opinion.
Do YOU want to have to fly nothing but a F16 F4U because all other aircraft are modelled realistically, and therefore are inferior? I think we can agree on this one at least.
<Quote>
You then proceed to tell me I have my head stuck up my rectal orifice. And go into another rant (most of which wasn't factual as Sorrow and myself pointed out) about how the G10 will be inferior to the Yak.
</Quote>
Dude, you've just told me I am totally gone in the head on weed. If you swing at me, expect me to not only swing back, but shoot, kick, bite and everything else you can think of. You start a fight with me, expect me to respond.
Let's see the rant:I said:
"So it is a little lighter, but has a larger wing area, and an engine that has 500hp less, but it will still outfly my Über G10 in what the G10 does best; climb and speed?
Sounds to me like this plane can seriously upset the balance in this game. As someone mentioned, it sounds like a Spit that cvan turn, z&b AND outrun other fighters, at least below 16k (and let's face it, most dogfights/furballs end up below that alt quite quickly)."
Does it have a larger wing area? Does it weight approximately only 500 pounds less than a loaded g10, when both are full? Has it not, on some posts, sounded as if this aircraft will turn very well, CAN z&b with or at least quite near to the G10 AND outrun most aircraft? is it not true that a great deal of dogfights end up on the deck, especially if it's a fight with several aircraft involved?
My first question was just a question, not a rant. I was wondering if I got it right. After the question, I commented on what I think would be the result if my question was answered with a "yes".
<Quote>
So how should I have reacted to you? I have been polite in every post, and responded in at least a moderate manner to your quite hostile replies.
</Quote>
Ok, let's see what you mean by polite. Here's the first ever line you write to me:
"LOL! If thats not bending the facts to fit your own agenda, what is."
Quite nice. Start off with a baseless accusation. Let's see how you finish it, and I must remind you that my head up your arse comment was a result of me reading the following line, not the other way around:
"Santa, I do believe you and the elves have been smoking some of that "Funny Mistletoe" lately (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)"
Quite polite. Let me say this; I meant the exact same thing with my comment as you did with yours, meaning that either mine and yours are both good hearted jokes, or we're throwing some mud on each other. You decide.
My later posts might have a certain negative attitude towards you in them, but it's caused by your first response to me.
<Quote>
If that irritates you .... well if that irritates you I'm wasting my breath and nothing is gonna change your opinon.
</Quote>
Disrespectful people irritate me, yeh. You're saying that your first post wasn't disrespecful? I took the first line you wrote in the same way that you probably will take this one: "have you stopped molesting children yet?". Baseless accusation, and a logical fallacy but the type of question you'll get from journalists and lawyers.
If this is some kind of misunderstanding, I will be the first to apologize. Just got a Pavlovian response to behavior I consider disrespectful, and it has gotten me into (and out of) unpleasant situations before. You can't get along with everyone but I do expect and grant a basic level of respect to/from non sociopaths around me.
Catch ya in the skies.
--
StSanta
II/JG2
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Alright, I apologize for my hostile attitude and admit that I probably overreacted and misunderstood Vermillion's initial post. I suck at excuses, so I have none.
Vermillion, sorry about that.
I do hope you have strong negative feelings towards group hugs though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
--
StSanta
II/JG2
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No hard feelings Santa (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Group Hugs? Yack ... gag.. puke..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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1) Is there any particular reason why everyone keeps using the Yak-9U prototype numbers, rather than those for the production models? Not a troll... honest Q.
- SnakeEyes
Let me ask a question in return. What data is used for the P-51D, F4U-1D, Spitfire IX, N1K2, Bf109, etc.? The answer to that would be prototype data. Not production data, protoype data. You will be very hard pressed to produce production data for a P-51D Mustang. The Soviets were distinct among most aircraft producing nations in categorizing both prototype & production data. So, why do we insist on the use of prototype data for Soviet aircraft? Because 95 times out of 100 production data is inferior to prototype data. Thus, if so many other aircraft are given FM's based on prototype data, why should the VVS aircraft be penalized just because they happen to have serial production data too? SnakeEyes, it's a question about keeping a level playing field among combatant aircraft.
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leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 04-30-2000).]
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Good argument. If that is factually accurate (that the preponderance of the Allied numbers, German numbers, etc., are based off of prototype performance), then by all means, I agree with you 100%.
I'm less concerned with a level playing field than consistency (in this particular case)... if the Germans, Allies, Japanese, etc., are all prototype numbers, then we should go with prototype numbers for the Soviet a/c also for the sake of consistency and fairness.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I believe the performance numbers for the P-51D are dated from a production model. In 1946, actual flight testing was done of a stock P-51D, fully armed and with no airframe "cleanup" except that which could have been done in the field. I no longer have the actual serial number of the individual aircraft used, but I could look it up. The results were well-publicized, and explains why there is so little debate on the actual wartime performance of the P-51, as opposed to other planes.
In AH this might concievably work against the Mustang, *if* other planes use "hotrod" prototype data and the Mustang is using data from a typical production machine. However, I have confidence that HTC prevents this from happening (compare the effectivness of the P-51 in AH to, lets say AirWarrior and you'll see what I mean).
For the P-51D at least, the data used is almost certainly true wartime performance data, not data from some stripped-down prototype.
--Belanger (an admitted newbie to AH)
-
Actually Belanger- the P-51D in AH _is_ based greatly upon the prototype numbers. This is not conjecture, it's fact. the plane matches exactly with the ones posted for it's stats while brand new. ie: Prototype planes are not stripped down etc etc. they are ones that have good octane fuel, few running hours and are in excellent maintenance. The 109's here are a little less so, often their numbers diverge by a slight margin from posted ones for the prototypes as their FM has more numbers and stats from "war weary" planes added to them.
Currently the VVS plane in AH is based HIGHLY on production numbers. The FM is heavily biased towards stats collected from heavily flown, often poorly repaired planes in the field. There is a HUGE collection of these stats for Russian planes as the soviets did extensive quality checks in the field on planes to ensure factories were performing properly. This represents a Major variation between prototype stats and production ones. Less face it.. if your job is to find problems with the plane for the factory to correct your stats are NEVER going to be glowing or leaning towards the higher possible bracket. Thus, while performance stats for the 109 G10 might
be within 5% of the prototype's speed because numbers in the FM have war booty planes affecting it, the La-5FN is as far off as 10% in some places because of the reports from lower quality production planes.
So the real question here is, though a REAL plane flown in the war could have had up to 10% less performance after 6 months in the field, since we are flying NEW planes every time should we have to face buddy boy in his brand spanking new P51 in a new Yak 9U that's performing like it's flown a couple of hundred hours in the field allready?
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Actually, Belanger, that information would be useful to post if you can find it.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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I can probably find it, hopefully, maybe, Akron U library should have references to it somewhere. AS I said, this flight testing wasn't done with a brand new plane, but with a stock plane taken from regular duty. I seem to recall that the airplane actually used is still preserved in some museum somewhere, another tidbit. Once I am back at U of A, I shall look it up (won't be there until next Monday)
Belanger
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Pick up your copy of America's Hundred Thousand (AHT), and look at the performance charts for the P-51D.
Notice that it matches our performance charts in AH exactly.
Now, skip to the end of the chapter and read the references Dean quotes. They are performance tests by North American, USAAF, and NACA in late 43' (these may be from B/C models) and early 44'.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"