Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: papjohns on January 14, 2010, 03:03:57 PM
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Sorry, I will flood this forum with questions.
First, I am assuming cornering speed is the speed at which an aircraft gets the most bang for the buck. In other words, the speed at which you loose the least E/while turning...My definition is likely incorrect, so someone correct me please.
Second, what is the cornering speed for the BF 109K.
Papa
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best speed to turn with the most DGR (degrees per second) would be around 250 for both the k4 and the g14.
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Thank you Sir, and thanks for swiftly killing me yesterday :) Is there a list of DGRs for all A/C in game?
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Thank you Sir, and thanks for swiftly killing me yesterday :) Is there a list of DGRs for all A/C in game?
Ask snailman, he is the king of charts! (snailman this is your cue, bust it out!) :)
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Ask snailman, he is the king of charts! (snailman this is your cue, bust it out!) :)
:lol
Sorry, can't help this time.
The most recent turn data list is now almost 4 years old, lots of planes missing, It was made by Mosq, maybe you can find a link in older posts, all I found are dead now.
But with Badboy's bootstrap calculator (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Academy/AH_BootStrap.zip), you could do a revised, complete list... takes just a few hours of flying in circles ;)
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the speed at which you loose the least E/while turning...My definition is likely incorrect, so someone correct me please.
You will actually lose lots of E at corner velocity due to high drag, but you will have the best turn rate. You can only stay close to corner velocity a few secs, since the drag rapidly slows you down, the engine simply can't keep up. (You can of course compensate by pointing nose down in turn)
It's typical usage is for quick reversal after a merge in a 1v1 dogfight.
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Yea, like lengro said I think you only want to use that on your merge. The plane will preform great at all speeds but you need to do alittle extra work on the throttle/stick/rudder then pretty much all the planes in the game. :salute
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To "maintain" corner speed in the K4 for more than one 360 deg turn you need to drop the nose with rudder...you tread lightly on the bottom rudder to gently drop the nose. The goal is to reduce your altitude drop to a little as possible while maintaining corner speed.
The reason one would want to do this is in the case of fighting a better turning plane who is fast. The Kia4 is a perfect example.
The Ki84 is fast and has close to the climb of a 109 and it can easily out turn a k4 while fast (over 250 mph). When in a tail chase after reversing, for example. the ki84 will want to just spiral down for speed and then go flat at corner to simple out turn the k4 who is slower.
So the K4 follows and gets to corner speed. To create a gun solution the K4 will have to cut nose down (yoyo) into the ki84's turn. The problem is the Ki84 can pull out of guns which brings us to the "why would you stay at corner speed" question.
The answer is it allows you to pull low and hi yoyo's into guns on the Ki84. It also forces the ki84 to pull g's to avoid your guns. At some point the Ki84 will try to reverse which is what your waiting for. You keep the pressure on by forcing guns and when he goes for the reverse you have the energy begin a verticle rolling scissor at which point you drop out of corner speed and begin throttle/flaps to make a close crossing kill shot.
If the bandit has corner speed and you do as well and you just drop out into hard maneuvering for scissors the Ki84 is going to be on you like a zeek in 5 seconds.
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Try this:
(http://www.major.geek.nz/AcesHigh/109k4.gif)
Your best turn rates are:
We get 30.6 deg/sec @ 243 MPH clean
and 36/sec @ 206 MPH with full flaps.
Your sustained turn rates:
19.6 deg/sec @ 165 MPH Clean
19.5 deg/sec @ 124 MPH Full flaps.
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Sorry, I will flood this forum with questions.
First, I am assuming cornering speed is the speed at which an aircraft gets the most bang for the buck. In other words, the speed at which you loose the least E/while turning...My definition is likely incorrect, so someone correct me please.
Second, what is the cornering speed for the BF 109K.
Papa
papjohns your not flying an equation matey just get out there and fight and practice you'll find what your looking for without the need for a chart good luck :salute
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Try this:
Your best turn rates are:
We get 30.6 deg/sec @ 243 MPH clean
and 36/sec @ 206 MPH with full flaps.
Your sustained turn rates:
19.6 deg/sec @ 165 MPH Clean
19.5 deg/sec @ 124 MPH Full flaps.
How did you get flaps out at 206 MPH? the flaps don't drop until your under 200 mph IAS?
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How did you get flaps out at 206 MPH? the flaps don't drop until your under 200 mph IAS?
i think its 180 :headscratch:
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How did you get flaps out at 206 MPH? the flaps don't drop until your under 200 mph IAS?
Must not be on the deck then, that could be TAS with the IAS being lower.
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Those figures are calculated and do not take into account the actual aircrafts flap deployment max speed.
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The diagram is just about spot on.
Its true that you have to be below 200 mph ACTUAL airspeed (red needle) to get flaps out. You can get out 1 notch at 190 but the second and third notch wont come out unitl 180 or less.
One thing the diagram does not sho is the "potential" to maintain said turn rate or radius by means of shallow hi and low yoyo's
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As agent has mentioned, those figures are obtained from a sea-level test where altitude is held constant.
The figures should be accurate and it's only the inst turn with full flaps which cannot be achieved in practice because the flaps would auto retract. If they didn't those figures would be 100% in practice.
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Good thread and thus I'm bumping it.
Also, Ive noticed that if you have a spit or ki84, etc.. on you 6, diving down till your going about 250-275, then ruddering into a tight blackout turn to the right then to the left( high speed flat scissors), many planes will be completely unable to follow and will overshoot. Also, it helps to cut throttle on the initial part of the turn and pull throttle back on as you come out of the turn.
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Good thread and thus I'm bumping it.
Also, Ive noticed that if you have a spit or ki84, etc.. on you 6, diving down till your going about 250-275, then ruddering into a tight blackout turn to the right then to the left( high speed flat scissors), many planes will be completely unable to follow and will overshoot. Also, it helps to cut throttle on the initial part of the turn and pull throttle back on as you come out of the turn.
I normally judge where I should be on the throttle compared to where the other plane is.....ie hes pulling around on me I chop more throttle, hes definately overshooting I may hit WEP. When flying any aircraft you will be more successful,IMO, if you make alot of minor adjustments to throttle,rudder, trim ect instead of making a few big adjustments....like going from full throttle to almost none then slamming it back to full, maybe just trim off a 1/4 throttle if it is enough :salute
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I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?
I'm usually thinking of speed and turn etc in relative terms to the other guy. At what point does anyone actually look at a gauge ? Am i missing something completely in regard to the importance of these technical things.
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I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?
I'm usually thinking of speed and turn etc in relative terms to the other guy. At what point does anyone actually look at a gauge ? Am i missing something completely in regard to the importance of these technical things.
I never do honestly, my mindset while flying is that I know what my plane will be able to do when I need to, so im more worried about what the enemy is doing :salute
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I watch my gauges all the time.
Airspeed and climb.
I often want to stay at a certain climb rate while in a turn. Dealing with turny planes in the MA is tricky. If you just go with your "gut" you will often end up nose down and not know it....getting too much speed etc.
I also watch the horizon gauge...it is imperitive you keep a perfect 90 degree turn at times.
It becomes a kind of technical flying...but there is a pay off.
Once you get to the stall fight they are not so important...BUT I often watch the climb very closly...this helps in KEEPING Energey
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I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?
For me not so much in the MA, but in scenarios and FSO's I check that info out and use it to my advantage. I find that an easy way to learn a few planes at a time as there are specific matchups in those situations.
Take what you learn and apply it in the MA.
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I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?
I'm usually thinking of speed and turn etc in relative terms to the other guy. At what point does anyone actually look at a gauge ? Am i missing something completely in regard to the importance of these technical things.
Since it's impossible to sustain corner for long it really serves as either a reference or target speed. Everyone is familiar with the common terms "fast" and "slow" but how fast is "fast" and how slow is "slow"? Knowing your corner velocity helps you put some numbers to those terms that actually relate to the performance capabilities of your aircraft.
As for "looking at a gauge" is concerned your ability and need to time share your attention varies according to where you're at in an engagement and the type of engagement you're in. Just cruising around in Indian country you want to stay above corner so you have the best defensive options available should you get jumped. If you're climbing out you can climb at corner velocity. This reduces your climb rate but you're less likely to be picked off because you're too slow to maneuver effectively. In a close knife fight you have little time to reference your instruments and little need to do so since the precise position and relative movement between aircraft is more important. You may glance occasionally at speed but in a knife fight you're probably more interested in how close you are to flap and stall speeds than corner. In an energy fight though, there's more opportunity and need to check your speed frequently.
You can use corner as a "reference" speed to determine the best maneuver to employ. For instance just before a merge you have plenty of time to check your speed and it's one of the most important pieces of information you can have. If you're significantly above corner you know that you will be G limited so you want to use a nose-high high-G turn and, as you convert E to altitude and decelerate you will slow to corner your turn rate and radius will improve. How much you are above your corner reference speed gives you an idea of how "vertical" your turn can be. The closer you are to corner the more oblique your turn while if you're significantly above corner you can use a more vertical turn. (For a pure vertical turn I use another reference speed (typically around 300)). If you're below your corner reference then you know you're lift limited so you will probably be better off choosing a nose-low slice. The slice lets you sustain the turn rate you have and may even improve it if it's tactically suitable to go very nose low (even to a split S). What you're looking for is a reference speed that will give you an idea of which maneuver is best.
Also, using corner as a reference can help you decide on the tactic to employ. If you're at or above corner, you may chose an energy fight while if you're below corner, you may choose to go straight to an angles fight using your nose position to intimidate your opponent. Of course, I'm simplifying again as there is a lot more to consider than just your speed relative to corner. The tactical situation, the relative position/number of bandits, individual bandit E states, etc., are all extremely important. Your speed relative to corner gives you your first indication of what options you may have.
In an energy fight there is plenty of time and reason to look at your airspeed and corner becomes your "target" airspeed. It's the speed at which you want to conduct the fight. You can't sustain it in a constant turn but you can stay in the vicinity of corner using high and low maneuvers. Simplistically speaking, your maneuver sequence is "straight-line, turn, straight-line, turn..." You gain E in the straight-line and convert E to angles in the turn followed by another straight-line to regain E.
For instance, in an extension/pitchback fight, you should target corner velocity in preparation for the reversal (pitchback). Since corner will give you the best turn rate/radius it's where you want to be for the pitchback. If you start your extension below corner then use WEP and unload the aircraft a bit for best acceleration (straight-line) to just above corner then pitchback (turn). At the completion of the pitchback, you unload and accelerate again (straight-line) for another merge. If, when you start your extension you're already above corner, use the excess speed to gain separation (if needed) then go a bit nose high to convert your excess E into altitude. Once you're near corner then reverse. How nose-high or nose-low you go during the extension depends on how far above or below corner you are. (Also, just to be clear there are other tactical reasons why you would reverse before reaching corner including your opponent's speed and nose position.)