Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: gatt on December 13, 2000, 03:24:00 PM
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Service entry: January, 1944 with 610 Sqd. RAF.
Production: 527 F.XIV/E and 430 FR.XIVE (total 957)
Max speed: 448mph at 26,000ft; 417mph at 12,000ft; 375mph at sea level.
Climb performance. Time to 20,000ft: 5'06"; max climb rate: 4,700ft/min.
Source: "Spitfire" by S.Wilson (Sovereign Series).
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it truly is an excellent airplane
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I think we'll see a rather different MkXIV than the one in WB. I think that RAF really deserves it. Do we have a 1944 plane set?
Well, give us Doras and XIV's then. Spitfires catching Runstangs, will be nice ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/logo1.gif)
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Gatt, please be explicit...
FW190D9- WITH MW50!
now yes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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That's correct RAM.
You can drool over your long nosed 190 and I'll drool over my long nosed Spit and then we'll chase down Runstangs and blow them into itty, bitty, bitty bits. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sisu
-Karnak
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.........until you get target fixation and some Jug pilot takes his P47-M and runs YOU down and then hammers you with eight 50-cal's.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by eddiek:
.........until you get target fixation and some Jug pilot takes his P47-M and runs YOU down and then hammers you with eight 50-cal's.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now ya talkin (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) or when i get my (edit)P51-H(edit) all y'all betta watch yor asses!
I meant the H model. 487MPH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 12-14-2000).]
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There ya go eddiek, you are talking about what i want (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Yeah that Aeroproducts propellor made the P-51K a real monster...
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lets go the other way, what one first:
C.R.42, Gladiator, or I-153 :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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LOL Juzz, I think the voters intent was to pick "H" not K. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Nhaaa, we should get the 190D-9 (yes RAM, with MW-50 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), the XIV and the La7 way before uber Ponies and Jugs. And the formers should *not* be perked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-14-2000).]
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I Think that if the Spit Mk14, is modeled right in A/H then we will see quite a lot of the W/B RAF types moving over here!.
Now that would be nice....
[This message has been edited by marcof (edited 12-14-2000).]
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http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14pt.html (http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14pt.html)
Boscombe Down's tests show different (and probably right) speed at 12K: 388mph. Probably a typo on the Wilson's book. In any case impressive figures. The kite with the bubble canopy is beatiful but someway less .... Spitfire-ish (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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it's gonna be sweet knocking down these superdweebs with a p38
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You can have any of those.
I just want my slow little F2G Super Corsair. After all it would only do about 420mph at 18,000ft.
Oh did I forget to mention that it would do over 400mph on the deck, and had 3,000hp?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Dang, our Spitfire guys are too quiet ...
The point is: the Spitfire XIV and the MW50 190D-9 wont be perked. Your ugly-butt Hogs and Jugs yes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'll take on any of you uber dweebs in my 190A8 or A5.
Come get some.
<offers Citabria a beer>
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg)
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Funny how the American aircraft fans need 1944 stuff to deal with our 1942-43 stuff and how they brag about what they'll do to our 1944 stuff with their 1945 stuff.
I have a novel idea. Lets give the RAF, Luftwaffe, IJA, IJN, VVS, USN and USAAF 1944 stuff and see how it goes. Lets not simply advance the Americans by a year to compensate them for the other nations just getting to where they've been all along.
The Spitfire F.MkXIV is a contemporary of the P-51D, P-47D and P-38L not the P-51H, P-47N and F4U-4.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I agree with Citabria, StSanta and Karnak. 1944 stuff against 1944 stuff. Would be interesting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sure thing Karnak! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You grab your Spit XIV, and I will take my P-51D.
We can even set up some kind of historic scenario to test it complete with a custom terrain.
Then we will fly from England to Berlin, engage the enemy, and then fly home and see who makes it.
Then we can go repeat the exercise and fly from Iwo Jima to Tokyo.
Who do you think is going to make it home the most? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
I realize that the Spit XIV has the qualities that will make it a superb arena aircraft, but historically? Well, it was superb in its own element.
Kinda funny that only about 700 or so (?) were ever made, with it being God's gift to combat aircraft, and with a full year and a half of war time service. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Lets all repeat. The Arena, is not real life. The Arena, is not real life....
Edit: Ok, 900 even (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 12-14-2000).]
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So what you're saying is that the P-51D can dive away and runstang on the deck until the Spitfire XIV rtb's for fuel? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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All the US fighter planes we have modelled are 1942-1943 planes used]/b] in 1944-1945. The F4U-1"C" was a "D" they mounted 20mm to in 1945.
Get your facts straight so at least your whine has some credibilty.
-Westy
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Actually if the P-51D tries to run the Spit'll chase it down and kill it.
The fuel multiplier compensates the P-51 in the MA. It can climb to altitude without using a third of its fuel load to do so. That gives it far greater loiter time.
I would like to see maps with strategic targets further back.
Mind you, there were Lacaster daylight raids in late 44 through '45 that were escorted to their targets and back by Spitfire MkXIVs. The XIV has a range of about 900 miles with droptanks.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I think you will find that the P-51D(and Typhoon, G-10) is slightly faster than the Spitfire XIV at lower altitudes.
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Westy, correct me if I'm wrong:
- the P-38L entered service in June 1944;
- the P-51D entered service in Europe and Pacific in mid 1944.
The P-51H was test flown on February 1945 and arrived in Europe too late to see actual combat. FG in the Pacific used it during the final months of the war.
I dont see whines in this thread.
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but, but, err...
P-38J-25 was around in early '44
P-51B, late '43
nope, still losing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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On 20th September 1944, III./JG54 received the first operational FW190D-9s.
In the meanwhile ErprobungsKommando 262 unit was practicing, shooting down Mosquitos and Spitfires since the summer (1944, that is). You know which a/c EK 262 was using, dont you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hmmmmmm ......
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-14-2000).]
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Give me a hang-glider with a pellet gun I'll still engage.
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Originally posted by juzz:
P-51B, late '43
None in Europe until early 1944.
And I doubt that any of them was deployed on the pacific before on Europe.
Ohhh yesss...1944 stuff for EVERYBODY!
I WANT:
my Ar-234
my Me-410
my Me-262
my Me-163
my Fw-190D9 (with MW50, please)
my Fw-190G8 (G series of the Fw are for me the best of the radial engined 190s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
my Me-109K4 (I like the K4 designation more than the G10, so what? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif))
my He-177A5 (the reliable one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif))
my He-210
etc, etc, etc (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
German iron rulesssssssssss!! (And its more charismatic, and more beautiful and are men's planes ,not sissies' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif))
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Originally posted by Torque:
Give me a hang-glider with a pellet gun I'll still engage.
LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
DrSoya
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RAM,
Why do you have to make it so hard to join forces with you?
<shakes head slowly and sighs>
It doesn't have to be "Give the Luftwaffe the best and screw the rest".
I can just as easily be "Give everybody something and put them on an even chronological footing with the American stuff".
Please give it a shot.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Produced and "around" are two different things.
It took time to form the squads at home, ship them out on troop ships and thier equipment in convoys as well as thier support and maintenance organisations. Then when they got over they had to set up operations as well. Not the case with the Axis at all or the RAF.
Yes, the US planes were ALL in production and being deployed from early 42 into late 43 but most did not see service in Europe till late 43 and into 1944.
Amazingly many folks (most often pro-LW) cannot seem to understand that "combat use" does not indicate when an aircraft is recognized as being deployed or in service.
If folks want to get technical about it then the facts are the F4U is a 1938 design; the P-51 from 1940, the P-38 was 1939 and the P-47 harkens to 1940 (earlier if you count the Lancer and other designs it took form from). They only changed engines to most along the way and added bubble tops to a couple of them. Maybe an armament config or two also here and there.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-14-2000).]
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Somethin else kinda funny, alot of those P-38 vs LW arguments are based on the North Africa, Italy and Med. campaigns where they tangled the most in the early part of the war.
Kinda gets overshadowed by the bombing campaigns. No wonder those P-38 boys had hell. They were fighting a mix of the nimbler 109's and the FW's, and the surfacing of the heavier armed ones with most seasoned axis pilots around, AND with all the faults of the earlier 38s. Not to mention the LW tended to outnumber them till Mid '43 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
- Jig
(the 39 thread reminded me of the Devilhawks and Earl's 38 flight time plus that stuff on the 82nd Fighter Group in one of the recent Aviation History mags)
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Westy,
OK then. I'd like my 1936 Spitfire F.MkXIV.
Sisu
-Karnak
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It's funny how people forget the reason the P-51H, P-47M/N, F4U-4, F2G, F8F, P-59, P-80 didn't see combat is because...
The Allies won the war so easily without them. Are we forgetting that Germany never saw the B-29 or A-Bomb because there was no need for it after D-Day. That there were almost no enemy aircraft at the Normandy invasion. Do you realize that the mighty Tirpitz was put on the bottom of the cold Norwegian waters by a Lancasters and Fairy Swordfish in broad daylight with not one Luftwaffa fighter to defend it. There were F4U-1's and F6F-3's there do fly escort but these 1944 uber planes were no where to be found. Why? Because the 1943 P-51B/C, P-38J's and P-47C/D's cleaned them out of the sky. I know the Spit's and Hurricanes won the Battle of Britain but they had virtually nothing to do with the offensive strike over the channel against Germany.
So lets not get crazy and forget why we are all here having this conversation.
Reality Check (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Later
F4UDOA
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P-47M/N and F4U-4 DID see combat.
In fact P-47N probably flew more sorties than Me 262, Fw 190D-9, and Ta 152 combined. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ok, we all agree then, 1944 irons against 1944 irons ... right?
No, there is a difference ... lets see ... uhmmm ... some 1944's come one year later than "some" other 1944's ... no, impossible! Lets see again .... oh dear ... help! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Westy ... what was on the drawing boards during 1944? The F-86? Following your reasoning we should have Korean age a/c buzzing around.
I'm obviously joking, just to underline that our plane set uses double standards. And it is not only the Axis suffering from it. Lets keep this thread polite plz.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-15-2000).]
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If you're interested in armament, there's an analysis of the Spit v 109 and 190 at:
http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages (http://www.delphi.com/autogun/messages)
Tony Williams
New book: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm)
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Got it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thx again for the Breda-SAFAT HE shell picture you sent me.
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No P-51B until 1944 eh? Not quite.
The first combat unit equipped with Merlin-powered Mustangs was the 354th Fighter Group, which reached England in October of 1943. The 354th FG consisted of the 353rd, 355th and 356th Fighter Squadrons, and was part of the 9th Air Force which had the responsibility of air-to-ground attacks in support of the upcoming invasion of Europe. However, they were immediately ordered to support the bomber operations of the 8th Air Force. The 354th flew their first cross-Channel sweep mission on December 1, 1943, and scored their first victory on a mission to Bremen on December 16. However, inexperienced pilots and ground crews and numerous technical problems limited operations with the P-51B/C until about eight weeks into 1944. From the early spring of 1944, the Merlin-powered Mustang became an important fighter in the ETO.
Now I suppose you will argue it wasn't present in large numbers until '44? We all know how that applies to certain LW a/c too... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
As for US designs being from earlier than 1944...
P-51D = P-51B: late '43
P-38L = P-38J-25: early '44
P-47D-25 = P-47D with paddle prop: ??? - I'd guess sometime in 1944 for sure.
F4U-1D = F4U-1A: early '43 - but when did they have the -8W installed?
So saying any 1944 US plane was actually a 1942 a/c is pretty much a total lie, and even 1943 is kinda stretching it, except for the Corsair...
PS: British fighters are the best! Spitfire 21, Tempest II, prototypes like M.B.5, Fury, Spiteful... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 12-15-2000).]
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"Westy ... what was on the drawing boards during 1944? The F-86? Following your reasoning we should have Korean age a/c buzzing around."
That's right. In 1944 the US had the P-80 and a few other jets in development and by early 45 these aircraft were in production. And don't forget all the many aircraft that the US was cancelled for production ( a luxury the LW did not have in 1944-45) because they were deemed not needed as the Allies knew they could win the war with existing models or that these new aircrat would be obsolete in the Jet age. There was the P-82 twin Mustang, P-47M, P-47N, F8F, F7F, F2G, How about bombers that the LW could only dream of developing? The B-36, the B-35 (Gotha copied the Northrop flying wing! (obligatory tease) the B-42 Mixmaster. (the Do-335 was a rip off of this US bomber!)
And the RAF has some outstanding planes in production too.
Yes. In 1944 and 1945 the planes for Korea were being made and deployed.
And Juzz. You missed my point or chose to ignore it. You are quoting WHEN the planes entered the combat zone in Europe. NOT when they started to be produced and deployed. BIG difference.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-15-2000).]
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Westy, nothing personal in my replies, this thread is very interesting .... but, are you saying that introducing FW190D-9, Spitfires XIV and La-7 should automatically bring P-51H, P-47N, F4U-4 or F8F into the arena?
Or, in other words, you would "perk" all the above planes, leaving Luftwaffe, RAF and Russian with such big holes in their plane sets?
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-15-2000).]
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OK, have it your way...
First flight of production model P-51B: May '43.
First flights of the P-47D with paddle prop and P-38J-25 are both certainly later than that, sometime in 1944.
The first F4U-1 is delivered to the USN on the last day of July, 1942. By August the USN has a massive 11 Corsairs. From the 1550th a/c they had the -8W engine of 2250HP fitted. That plane would have flown sometime in early-mid 1943 I figure.
In the meantime in 1943 you also have flying production models of the Ki-84-I, N1K1-J, Spitfire XIV, Tempest V...
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".. are you saying that introducing FW190D-9, Spitfires XIV and La-7 should automatically bring P-51H, P-47N, F4U-4 or F8F into the arena?"
No. I'm discussing the bogus assumption that some people have in that they say the US planes are all 1944 stuff while everyone else has to fly 1942 equipment. These folks conveniently have different criteria as for what makes "their" aircraft 1942 models and what makes the US planes 1944 models.
I agree that the190-D9, Spit XIV and La-7 should be in the arena now with all the other aircraft we have available. The TA-152, DO-335 and a few other aircraft belong with those other US aircraft up above in a "1945" or 'perk' system.
-Westy
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Westy,
Don't waste your time. There is a bizarre alliance on the boards of people that can't remember or choose to forget history.
Juzz,
The first F4U-1A's were in action in the beggining of August 1943 with bubble cockpits and water injection.
Also in July of 1943 the XF4U-3 starts flying, 30 are built and delivered. They have a top speed of 480MPH at 40,000FT.
They were used for high alt testing until 1947 and stricken from the Navy inventory in 1949.
I guess if you want to be picky...
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Westy, I agree with you.
F4UDOA, as you can see no one is wasting his time here. Cool down.
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 12-15-2000).]
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First F4Us were in action during February 1943 with VMF 124, first kill was scored on Feb 14th iirc.
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Thanks Gatt.
Nath. What was your point?
-Westy
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Gatt,
Sorry about the inflection. There have been some very strange post lately that have getting under my skin. It really wasn't pointed at you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nath,
Your right. It was the St.Valentines day massacre. The first kill scored by an F4U was actually a head on collision. So much for HO's not being realistic.
Getting back to topic on the Spit XIV here is a recent article from Air Classics magazine in relation to the Spit XIV's performance.
Quote
"The MOF's Spitfire does not have clipped wing tips and I certainly feel that if I did, several more MPH could be achieved. For all the power in that big Griffon 65 the aircraft is not a particularly good Unlimited racer. It's surprisingly slower than a stock Mustang and as you add more power the coolant doors on the radiators open up and it feels like you accidentally put the flaps down. I raced the plane at METO power, +13/+14lbs of boost at 2600RPM. The aircraft has great visibility which is a plus and the controls are light on pitch but the ailerons really start to stiffen up as the speed increases while the rudder is quite light. Also probably because of the big five-blade prop there is a noticeable gyroscopic effect. In a way the plane is overpowered but it doesn't bleed of speed in a pylon turn. The handling characteristics are much better in the Mk.IX."
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 12-15-2000).]
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 12-15-2000).]
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Pylon races!
F4UDOA, do you have any data about speed before and after the turns? Or any realated URL?
Cheers,
GATT
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Pylon races? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Say "when" !!
-Westy
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I'd like to see one, dang (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hell, what about an AcesHigh Pylon Racing Championship? I mean HTC could use those big beer bottles as pylons ... ahahahaha (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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1. They wern't driving them. They were flying them.
2. The pilots that fly in those races have about 10 times more flying experiance than the average WW2 pilot. And some are ex-combat pilots.
3. It's a Spit XIV. Probably in better condition than any in wartime service with better fuel. Also lighter without the guns.
The engine is the same and so is the airframe.
I don't really care what you do with the information. I am just providing it.
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Westy, all planes have to go through various stages before they enter service. The P51B may have first flown at the end of 42, but it entered service in late 43/early 44. That makes it a 1944 plane, in the same way that the Tempest V is a 44 plane, even though it first flew in Sept 42.
If you want to judge the planes fairly, judge them all by the same criteria. Either first production or entering service are probably the best choice. Which ever way you do it you will find the US planes are almost all a year or 2 later than most of the rest.
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The problem with any 1944-45 flight sim is this:
By the latter stages of the war, the design of both side's aircraft were focussed on different roles.
Allied aircraft were designed for air superiority - knock down the enemy fighters to allow the buffs to get through.
Axis aircraft were designed to knock down the buffs - heavy armament and less emphasis on pure air-to-air ability.
Which is, IMHO, the main reason that you cannot do simple comparisons on RAF, USAAF, German or Japanese late-war aircraft.
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F4UDOA, I'm really interested in pylon races data. It was not a sarcastic reply. Whats the matter with you? If your reply was for someone else, then never mind.
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Good point Jekyll.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
By the latter stages of the war, the design of both side's aircraft were focussed on different roles.
Allied aircraft were designed for air superiority - knock down the enemy fighters to allow the buffs to get through.
Axis aircraft were designed to knock down the buffs - heavy armament and less emphasis on pure air-to-air ability.
Jekyll...I have to disagree.
I look to a Fw190D9 and I see the (IMO) best pre-1945 all around air superiority aircraft...
-Very fast
-Great visibility (A series canopy had good visibility, but with the bulged hood, the D9 had even better)
-Great high speed maneouverability
-Great roll rate
-Decent acceleration
-Decent climb
-Good range
-Well armed and with good ammo capability
-great zoom
-great dive
-great performance regardless the altitude
etc,etc etc
The only thing it really lacked was turning ability. Other planes were better in certain aspects, as the Spitfire XIV (turning, acceleration, climbrate...), the Tempest (acceleration ,climb,zoom, turn, visibility, weapons...), the P51d (turning ,range,zoom, dive, maybe visibility...), etc...but IMO the D9 was the best all around plane of them.
And it was not a buff killer. Was a pure fighter.
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Karnak...sheesh!!! my post was purely tongue in cheek (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
And it was not a buff killer. Was a pure fighter.
It was a beauty before everything else.
Who needs turning ?
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Sorry Gatt,
I think I need a vacation from the boards.
Here are some good URL's for some pretty neat racing stuff.
http://www.airrace.org/ (http://www.airrace.org/)
http://www.renoairracing.com/ (http://www.renoairracing.com/)
http://www.pylon1.com/index1.shtml (http://www.pylon1.com/index1.shtml)
Some great F2G Corsair stuff in this last link in the racers from the past tab.
Enjoy
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westy spewish:
Nath. What was your point?
My point was... in the post, did you miss it? ;p
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I have to admit I've defiantely grown tired of the big time punk attitude Nath you wear on your sleeve.
"First F4Us were in action during February 1943 with VMF 124, first kill was scored on Feb 14th iirc."
My question was if your point was only that this is the first kill, period? Or was this the year (1943) that the F4U should be considered as being in? Unlike 1942 which is what all the AH Axis and British planes are claimed by some to be of?
Don't answer. I could care less at this point.
-Westy
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Just imagine I just said something really really clever to get all you to calm down a bit.
Ahhhhhh Isnt that better? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Did you notice that new Spit in Pyro's post in News?
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Not a Spitfire, a Seafire. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You should have cared less before you posted, you could have saved face.
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I was responding to f4udoas statement that the first F4Us were in action during August.
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...with bubble canopies and water injection...
Ha! Who misses the point now! (all of us methinks)
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He should learn how to phrase his sentences better then. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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How is classifying planes by YEAR fair? Western Europe had a 2 year headstart in WW2 to design planes (when war starts all development budgest massively increase). Therefore, Western European planes of a given year had 2 more years of wartime development over US or Japanese planes. Which leaves little doubt as to why some 1944 British or German planes may be more refined than their 1944 American/Japanese counterparts.
In 1943, in the Pacific, the Japanese Ki-61 was the best they had. Who would want to fly that against 1943 Euro planes like the FW-190A-5 or Spitfire Mk 9e? Nobody would call them "equals" just because they are of the same year. What about 1942? Are the P-40E and Ki-43 as good as a 109G2 and Spit IX? Not many sane people would say so. Same goes for 1944.
To say nothing of developmental problems, political decisions, proximity to combat, etc.
Also, as mentioned, many planes were designed for massively different roles. however, the ARENA typically ignores these roles--all planes do all roles, fly for all countries, and are always available in unlimited numbers.
Not all planes were created equal. However, for a game to be fun, things HAVE to be fairly equal.
The solution?
I tend to favor adding planes based on how well they match up with other planes in the game, regardless of the year. That way the bottom line (the game itself) is fair.
J_A_B
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It is so difficult to bring into the arena 1944 allied a/c against 1944 axis a/c (jets apart)? We have the exact day when they became operational, so whats the problem? Are P-51D, P-47D/M, P-38L and F4U-(?) not enuff?
Looks like HTC is going to perk the Tempest, why?
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Methinks:
Perks are being based on performance, not year.
P-51D is the rule for the cut-off mark.
Me 109G-10 is the exception.
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In 1943, in the Pacific, the Japanese Ki-61 was the best they had. Who would want to fly that against 1943 Euro planes like the FW-190A-5 or Spitfire Mk 9e?
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Those that actually flew them, of course.
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During 1942, italian air force pilots had C.202s and the C.200s. Those were the best fighters they could field. Should PYRO model a rollin plane set we would not whine in order to get 1943-44 fighters, like the C.205, the 109G-6 and the 109G-10. We will get what we built and had in that phase of the war.
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You guys, this sounds pretty funny to a mostly neutral outsider.
Luftwobbles: All Allied planes are inferior! German iron shot them down in great carload lots!
Allied Imperialist Opportunists: So, wait a minute... we didn't win this war? Allied aircraft shot down Germans in greater carload lots... yada, yada, yada, yada...
I fly mostly American planes. It's not a personal thing. I just can't fly the Axis planes! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Someone made a good point up there. The year shouldn't determine how a plane is compared. It's performance and design should.
Tally ho! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)