Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: ra on April 29, 2000, 11:47:00 AM
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Time for a mystery plane post. I could post a picture of this mystery plane (not modeled in AH) but I think it would be more fun to just describe it and see if anyone can guess what it is:
1) Single engine WWII fighter
2) Evolved from lightweight, high altitude interceptor design
3) over 15,000 built
4) prettier than a Spitfire (dead giveaway)
5) served with several different airforces
6) not modeled in AH
7) fought in Mediterrainean, European, Burmese, and Pacific arenas
8) opened a large can of whup-ass in all those arenas
9) there is no 9
10) 0.7% losses in combat
11) not modeled in AH
12) feared by the enemy for its high altitude performance, it was still arguably one of the best ground attack fighters of the war
13) continued to serve in several air forces into the 1950's
Take a guess what this plane is, post any pictures you have of it (this should be good).
I forgot to mention, this plane is not modeled in AH, and it isn't even on the 'coming soon' list.
ra
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Without knowing anything about the other points, "12) feared by the enemy for its high altitude performance, it was still arguably one of the best ground attack fighters of the war" sounds like this plane:
"The (edited) prototype (40-3051) flew for the first time on May 6, 1941, piloted by Lowry L. Brabham. "
Az
(http://www.link-goe.de/~m.henze/images/177k.gif)
II.(K)/JG2
[This message has been edited by azrael (edited 04-29-2000).]
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Why does THUNDERBOLT pop into my mind with that ?
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I guess you mean the P-47, but this statement
4) prettier than a Spitfire (dead giveaway)
implies you may be visually impaired or were dropped on your head repeatedly as an infant.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hummm...Really problematic , believe me...Im still trying to think in a plane that meets all these requirements...
My #1 choice would be the P63 KingCobra...but it doesnt comply a lot of requirements:
2) Evolved from lightweight, high altitude interceptor design
As it was developed from P39, a low level fighter bomber, designed as that from the start.
4) prettier than a Spitfire (dead giveaway)
Anyway this is a subjective view. KingCobra was,for me one of the ugliest prop plane to fly...
10) 0.7% losses in combat
and
13) continued to serve in several air forces into the 1950's
Well I dont know what was the loss rate of a kkingcobra...but it fought with the soviets and they had high loss rates all war through...An I have to admit that I have no idea about post war king cobras.
This is mostly a try...I keep on thinking...
<THINKING MODE ON>....
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-29-2000).]
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Republic P-47 Thunderbolt
(http://www.totavia.com/imagearchive/aviapix/Fighters/P47/P47.1.large.jpg)
(http://www.totavia.com/imagearchive/aviapix/Fighters/P47/P47NGNG.JPG)
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Where the Spit dances with the elegance of a soaring eagle, the P-47 strikes fear into the hearts of the enemy like a pregnant hippo at top speed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
And that is analogous to how I see their relative beauty. The -478 is like an A-10 - ugly as hell, but you *gotta* love that ugly mofo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
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Dunno spounds more like a hurricane, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
especially the prettier than a spitfire bit
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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P-40
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There is no such aircraft. You are just being stupid. EVERYONE knows there ain't nothing prettyer than a Spit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.armtec.demon.co.uk/cbtown.jpg)
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LOL....Prettier then a Spit? Sounds Subjective. BTW, The P-39 was originally intended for high alt (What I am calling over 15k ft here), not ground pounding, but when the US military forces decided not to provide it with a supercharger it became strictly a low level aircraft, for which it was well suited.
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I'd say this would be the P-47. It meets all of the criteria except #4, and IMHO the P-47 is not that ugly.
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mp-ten
Lt. J.G. VF-100 "The Haze"
(http://personal.palouse.net/ferens/mp-ten.jpg)
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I've yet to see a Jug I ain't liked. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Bloody
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A Jug????? have you seen this one?
10) 0.7% losses in combat
For sure the P47 had much more combat loss
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According to this (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_1.html) that is true. I suspect it is a typo though, 7% seems much more reasonable.
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Then what about this?
Envolved from lightweight, high altitude interceptor design
P47 was developed from prewar fighters, all heavy, From Seversky to Republic, all Fighter designs were heavyloads...
So that isnt true, either.
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Quote from http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_1.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_1.html):
The P-47 as originally conceived was quite different from the aircraft which was ultimately to emerge from the Republic factories. On August 1, 1939, Kartveli, in response to an official requirement, proposed a lightweight high-altitude interceptor to the USAAC under the company designation of AP-10.
What do you say to that, RAM? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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hk-smg
The Haze (http://rhinobytes.com/haze)
100th F/B Group
[This message has been edited by Rendar (edited 05-03-2000).]
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That they failed miserably (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
hehehe ok ok ok...if 0.7% is to be readed as 7%, and getting out that it was a big ugly sucker (hehe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), then its okay, its a P47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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.7% is correct. This is the loss/sortie, ie if 100 Jugs flew 10 combat sorties each, on average 7 would be lost (7/1000). This was considered a very low attrition rate.
ra
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Yups, Ra got it right..it's on a per sortie basis.
It also destroyed more enemy aircraft than any other US plane.
Why it isnt in AH boggles me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Thats a joke right? Prettier than a Spitfire, <snicker>.
It is a joke?
Right?
Come on, you're scaring me. You've gotta be joking.
Sisu
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I'd be interested in seeing the "official" statistikcs with regards to enemy fighter aircraft destroyed in the air/P-47's lost.
Also, improperly used statistics can sometimes be counterproductive. I am not saying it is the case now, but if I have 5000 decent fighters, and 10 really good, I expect the 5000 decent fighters to shoot down more aircraft alltogether.
What was the plane-for-plane kill/death ratio for the P-47?
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StSanta
II/JG2
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4.6:1 iirc
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You guys are right,
The Jug isn't prettier than the Spitfire. Pretty is a description for girly kinda planes (well...like the Spitfire), while big solid manly planes are Handsome, Rugged or Awe Inspiring! (Like the Jug or Corsair)<G,D,R>
Sharky
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Heh, when I think of the P-47 I always think of that quote that goes SOMETHING like:
"Yeah, tho I fly through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, for I fly the biggest, baddest, meanest mother f*cker in the valley!"
Heheheh. Speed, strength, and firepower... what more could you possibly ask for? Ok, I suppose climb rate would be nice, but that turning stuff is for wussies. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Thats right Lephturn !
That turning crap is just a good way to get killed! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Of course thats why those Nancy Boys make such Juicy targets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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K/D for the 47 was 8:1
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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Pretty close to its average numerical advantage in each fight then Daff (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Bombjack (edited 05-08-2000).]
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Nice troll, bmjk..and I'll bite too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
While the P-47's (And allieds) did get the numerical advantage in the air later on, The P-47's proved themselves against both equal and superior numbers...Add to that, the LW were fighting over homeground.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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Curses! Foiled again! *twirls moustache*
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Juzz:
Looks like the top pic is actualy a P47 Razorback .. the bottom one is a thunderbolt..
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Erhh...they're both Thunderbolts...although the top one had the nickname "razorback" and the bottom one "Superbolt"
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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Ra, nice little discussion of the Jug you've started, lol. Light-weigth? I think not folks. Biggest single engine fighter of the war, 6+ tons. Incidentally, Republic Aviation is also responsible for the largest single engine fighter ever, at least US-the F105 Thunderchief, AKA UltraHog. I would have said you were lookin for the Yak, but the part about there being no 9 sorta has me there. Good riddle tho, will keep on it.
"Gort, Klatuu Barada Nicto"
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It *did* start as a lightweight interceptor..
Here's a write-up I wrote last year...
The History of the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt.
The development of the P-47 started in 1935. The Army was looking for a replacement of the Boing P-26 and 2 Russian born emigrants, Alexander Severski and Alexander Kartveli attracted the Army's interested with the SEV-1XP, renamed the P-35. Their main contender was Curtiss with their P-36, but in June 1936 Severski & Kartveli was awarded the contract of 76 P-35's.
In 1939, While Severski was in England to promote his ideas, but back home he was voted out of the board of directors and had to accept a cash settlement for his position. He used those money to from a new company in October 1939, called the Republic Aviation Corporation and with him took Kartveli as his chief engineer.
Again the Army was looking for a new fighter and with new technology, ever increasing poweful engines were becoming available, although their reliability were mainly unproven.
Initially Kartveli was aimin for a lightweight interceptor with as small an airframe as possible, using the new V-12 liquid-cooled Allison engine. The first design, named the AP-10 recieved a positive reception by the Army Board in August 1939 and Kartveli was asked to develop it.
The original weight was 4600lbs, but as the army wanted provisions for bomb racks and other modifications, the weight rose to 4900lbs with 2 fuselage mounted machine guns.
Initial performance estimates was 415mph at 15,000 feet and the plane was renamed the XP-47, but as the technology went further, the original design was deemed outdated and in January 1940 they agreed on re-designing it.
Meanwhile, with air war in Europe highlighted several subjects and the army started to demand new features like armour plating & self-sealing fuel tanks. The Army Board also expressed concern about the Allison engine, but Kartveli had foreseen this by turning his attention on the Pratt & Whitney Double Wasp.
Due to the massive size of the Double Wasp, Kartveli created a new airframe and the Republic submitted their new design, the XP-47B. The Army Board was quite encouraged with the armament of 6 0.50-in Browning machineguns, an estimated topspeed of 400mph at 20,000 feet and a climbrate of 5 minutes to 15,000 feet. The weight had now grown to 11,600 lbs, the biggest ever single seat fighter.
On the 6th of September 1940, the Army Air Corp issued a contract of 773 P-47B's.
To get the promised performance of the Double Wasp, Kartveli decided to install a supercharger. Only problem was that it took up a lot of space, but by installing the main part of the unit in the rear fuselage, behind the pilot, he solved the problem.
The first prototype, XP-47B (serial no. 40-3051), had looked nothing like the biplanes still used around the world and was for it's time, extremly futuristic with it's polished aluminium airframe, elliptical wings and closed canopy. It featured the Curtiss Electric propeller, the first 4 bladed propeller to be fitted a US plane, the P&W Double Wasp, a 18 cylinder radial engine outputting a massive 2000hp and a fuel capacity of 305 gallons. From the P-35s 28 feet & 4600lbs, it had grown to more than 35 feet and a loaded weight of 12,500 lbs, the largest single seat fighter ever!.
On the 6th of May, 1941, test pilot Lowery Brabham rolled the XP-47B down the runway at Farmingdale and the P-47 flew for the first time. Although smoke started to pour into the cockpit, Brabham flew for 20 minutes and due to the soft runway at Farmingdale from recent rain,diverted and landed succesfully at the nearby Mitchell Field. After several test flights, it gained a topspeed of 412 mph at 25,800 feet, fulfilling the promise of a topspeed over 400 mph and production of the first series of P-47B's started.
A series of setbacks then followed. On the 26th of March 1942, chief test pilot George Burrell was killed during a test flight when the entire tail section broke away. On the 1st of May another P-47 was damaged in a high speed dive, but managed to land with most of the fabric covered rudder and elevator in shreds.
The Republic strenghtened the airframe and fitted metal covered control surfaces, but as with other plane designs, the high-speed problems were only partially solved.
In October 1942, 3 P-47C-1's were delivered to Army Air Force for combat evaluation test. An impressive topspeed of 427 mph was recorded, but the rate of climb was somewhat disappointing with 7 minutes to 15.000, not exactly what you expect from a interceptor fighter.
It was the Republics Director for Military Contracts, C. Hart Miller who named it "Thunderbolt".
15,683 Thunderbolts were built during the war, more than any other allied fighter and it recorded 3,916 enemy plane kills, 6,000 tanks, 9,000 locomotives, 86,000 rail wagons and 68,000 trucks.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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15,683 Thunderbolts were built during the war, more than any other allied fighter
Over 20,000 Spits built.
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Quote (Klatuu)
'Biggest single engine fighter of the war, 6+ tons.'
On aircraft weight: http://www.aviation-history.com/republic/p47.html (http://www.aviation-history.com/republic/p47.html)
Weight empty 10,700 lb
Above is a quote is for 11,600 for the P47 - I assume this is 'weight empty'
http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/typhoon.html (http://www.aviation-history.com/hawker/typhoon.html)
'Without its underwing load the Typhoon IB weighed 11,300 Ib. and with two 500-lb. bombs and the necessary racks, 12,400 Ib.'
But does the 11,300 figure include fuel? It doesn't say 'weight empty'.
Anybody got a 'weight empty' for the Typhoon?
TIA
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skeet - out
Aces High - Fight Stimulator
[This message has been edited by skeet (edited 05-10-2000).]
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The Complete Book of Fighters, gives these numbers
Typhoon IB
Empty Weight: 9,800 lbs
Max Loaded Weight: 13,980 lbs
P-47C-5
Empty Weight: 9,900 lbs
Max Loaded Weight: 14,925 lbs
P-47D-35
Empty Weight: 10,000 lbs
Max Loaded Weight: 17,500 lbs
P-47N
Empty Weight: 11,170 lbs
Max Loaded Weight: 20,700 lbs
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Oops..good catch, Nashwan. (There was also some 30.000 odd (La-5's?..some Russian thingie <G> ) built.
It should of course had said US fighter.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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Prettier than a Spitfire? Sorry, even if you're talking about the Seafire.
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sorry but the p-38 is King Brick of the Universe wieghing in empty at 12,000 lbs fully loaded w bombs at 20,000 lbs.
nothing comes close in initial dive.
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The P-47N is only ~100lbs within those numbers. (And it had longer ranger too, nyeah neayh, neayh :P)
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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Klatuu, the P-47 was originally meant as a light-weight plane, but that design was scrapped.
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Rendar
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Typicall gov't project then, why have one when you can have two at twice the price, lol. Oops, its 3 times as big as we meant. Maybe they just forgot to change from metric to english, like NASA. (The 6+ tons number is assuming you put some fuel in it. And a few thonsand rds .50 BMG.) Citabria, I did qualify single engine. But wasn't the P-61 a fighter? Did it weigh more than the 38? I agree qts, nothin's prettier than a Spitfire, in flames. Whether or not the mystery plane is the Jug, I'd sure like to see it in AH, in Gabby's colors.
[This message has been edited by Klatuu (edited 05-13-2000).]