Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Sparks on April 30, 2000, 04:00:00 PM
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This may have been raised before but has there been any thought to adding the Spit XIV to the lineup. I've been reading Jeffrey Quills autobiography "Spitfire" which tells his story of test piloting the Spit and the XIV comes out very favourably. It was the first Griffon powered one built from 1943 onwards (957 total) and came about as a result of the performance difference between the improving FW190's and the MkIX Spit. This is a quote from the book recounting the report of the MOD Air Fighting Development Unit:-
"The all performance of the Spitfire XIV is better than the Spitfire IX at all heights. In level flights it is 25-35 mph faster and has a crrespondingly greater rate of climb. It's manouverability is as good as a Spitfire IX. It is easy to fly but should be handled with care when taxying and taking off."
Sounds a magic aircraft and was operational in numbers - so can I have one please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sorry it's too Uber. Apparently the RAF was so far advanced in WW2 that any aircraft it built after 1942 are impossible for other nations to combat. [/irony]
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Tell ya what - nothing in this world is free.
You get your Spit 14, I get my ME-262.
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StSanta
II/JG2
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Aah, not quite - that equation should be Meteor = Me 262.
We already have the Me 109G-10.
The only other Me 109 I'd argue for is changing the G-6 to G-6/AS.
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Alright, why to ask for Spit XIV, when we can ask for XXI? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) RAF pilots, I think it's time for us to unite and start whining for a better ride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
mx22
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Nashwan, I just don't get it. The Spit IX is easily one of the most competitive planes in the game- in fact it's likely the best balanced of them all. You make it sound like the British have nothing good to fly.
Your continual reference to it as 1942 technology is tiresome by this time. It has already been stated before the AH Spit IX is a 1944 version. I guess I could go on to complain about the Mustang being a 1940 design, or the Lightning as a 1939 design, or the F4U as a 1940 design... you get the idea.
But, ok. Get your Spit XIV. And while you're at it give me every other 1944 plane that flew. I think I would enjoy a 262 in this case. Or my Ta152. Or my F8F.
Give it a rest. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Sparks-
I think a Spit XIV would be cool, but the sky would no doubt be full of them. That is my one and only concern with any plane that is added, "will it completely outclass everything else in the set?"
Let me ask you- if the Spit XIV were added today, which other AH plane would you use to fight it?
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you RAF guys seem to forget how well you do already with the spit 9
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Tell ya what - nothing in this world is free.
You get your Spit 14, I get my ME-262.
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StSanta
II/JG2
I Would be happy with Ta-152.
I Don't need some dweeb jets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Tour 3:
The Spitfire Mk IX has 11709 kills and has been killed 11354 times.
The Spitfire Mk V has 3156 kills and has been killed 3653 times.
The Typhoon IB has 1635 kills and has been killed 1806 times.
The Fw 190A-8 has 3523 kills and has been killed 2734 times.
The Bf 109G-10 has 5434 kills and has been killed 4414 times
The Bf 109G-6 has 840 kills and has been killed 849 times.
The Bf 109G-2 has 713 kills and has been killed 612 times.
The Bf 109F-4 has 379 kills and has been killed 547 times.
Citabria, tell me how well the RAF are doing again? Are we playing the same Sim?
I'm not complaining - personally I do fine. But the resistance to modernization of RAF fighters is not supported by the arena results or the historical situation.
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Mike "FunkedUp" Waltz
Aces High Instructor Corps (http://www.hitechcreations.com/arenas.html#training)
S/L 308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF (http://www.raf303.org/308)
Northolt Wing (1st Polish Fighter Wing) (http://www.raf303.org/northolt)
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Come on Funked, you if anybody should know better than to use that arguement (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Typhoon numbers are probably quite legit and representative, but then again we all know that Ground Attack (especially against 30mm Phalanx systems)is an extremely hazardous duty.
But even the rawest newbie in AH knows that the Spitfire is the field defense plane of choice, and hence the average K/D ratios (But notice the Mk IX is still positive). Get all those *Die, Respawn, Die* dweebs outta the Spitfire, and I bet it will have a quite respectable record. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And how many times have you attacked an enemy field and noticed Fw190's coming up to meet the attack?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-01-2000).]
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WHOAAAAAA !!!! <ducks under desk>
It was only comment after reading a book - I just thought ...... I mean I didn't mean to start anything.
But, seeing as it has started something...
Mx22 - I don't agree on the Mk21, or 22 or 24 for that matter - qouting from last chapter of Mr. Quill again "The Spitfire 21 was the fastest and also the most controversial of the fighter variants. It was never a very satisfactory aeroplane but it sired two more fighter variants in the form of the MK22 and the Mk24 which were superb aircraft. These, the last of the Spitfire line of fighters, were produced only in small quantities for they were overtaken by , first, the end of the war with Gernmany; second, the end of the war with Japan; and, third, the advent of jet propulsion....
Kieran - I know what you're saying and yes the MK9 is a great a/c but the Mk14 was operational Oct 1943 onwards so isn't that late really. Now I know I'm a newbie dweeb with little experience but IMHO as far as competitive opposition I think the Niki, P38, later 109's and later FW's (if they come along) would be a good match (after all the Mk14 was the MOD's reponse to the appearance of the FW's). I think the F4U would provide and interesting battle as well.
Funked - Interesting stats - I must find out where to get this stuff... think it does make the point about FW's and if they introduce late model ones then .....??????
Vermillion - I can relate to what you're on about - I AM one of those rawest "die respawn die" dweebs but I fly the Mk9 because it's the most forgiving and I want to learn fight not practice spin recovery (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Anyway if the Mk9 is so good and the stats are being dragged down by dweebery as you say then why isn't everyone using it as Kieran suggests would happen ?? Answer is people fly what they like to fly - why else would you see Yaks etc up?
Call me a nancy boy if you like but there is no more beautiful a/c than a Spit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Well I'm off back under the desk now to wait for the incoming .....
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Vermillion, I'm not the one who introduced arena performance as an issue here, it was Citabria. I just wanted it to be clear that such an argument had no basis in fact.
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Ahhh... its nothing personal Sparks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I have known Funked and banana for a long time, and I still call them Nancy Boy's for flying Spitfires. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
My point was that any aircraft, no matter how great, will have bad stats if people use them in an inappropriate manner. In other words taking off from an ackless field with 10 enemy aircraft sitting above them vulching them as soon as they start to roll.
Don't worry Sparks, so day you too will graduate to manly aircraft, and leave the Spitfire crutch behind (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Again, just kidding.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Ok,
Here is my reason why RAF deserves at least Spitfire XIV.
First fo all, yes Spitfire 9 does turn well. But plane is damn slow. I can dive on enemy, but if he's in any late war fighter and notices me from far away, he can simply dive away. No chance for me to catch up. Now any fast plane on my 6, co alt or higher will catch up with me. I can hit WEP and trim the plane for a straight flight, it won't help. Slow speed also means, that once I'm engaged, there is no way out - I'll eaither will have to kill enemy or die. That is the reason I would never fly alone in Spitfire far from friendly base or friendly planes. P-51, Bf109G10, F4U and P-38 have a luxury of relatively high speed and once they reach high alt, they are almost unstopable if they stay smart.
Now, whatever you people say, Spit XIV is far from uber plane. Yes it would be faster then Spitfire IX, but it won't turn as good as latter. In regards of Spit XXI. We already have F4U-C1, which was produced in small numbers too and it is questionable (as far as I understand) if it achieved any kills during WW2. So why can't I have it or whatever other late war Spitfire modification was issued for use in RAF?
P.S. Before everyone will jump on me here, lemme clear that I don't consider F4U-C1 an uber plane and the only reason I mention it here is to prove that I have the right to ask for late war planes - be it Ta152, Me262, Spit XIV, Spit XXI and whatever other WW2 plane I can think of (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
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...and nothing personal really intended here. There are some really good pilots out there in all a/c. The question is, what is the first a/c most new guys grab in the arena? The Spitfire. And that is fine, I even share some blame for that, as I direct new people to the Spitfire myself. It is the easiest plane to gain some acm skills and be successful in the fastest.
I would further point out that duels are generally fought in none other than the Spit. The AH Spit can kill tanks. It is the second fastest climber in the game. It has good speed. It turns with anything. It is a great energy fighter. See what I mean?
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The XIV isn't late war. It entered squadron service in January 1944.
And Verm: Don't worry, some day you too will get over your feelings of inferiority to the Spitfire and learn to move on. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pyro posted that AH spit 9 is F model which would make it 1942 plane.
If spitfire 14 ever gets modeled - whining will never stop.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Yep, newbie pilots and field defence is what has brought the Spit score down.
Two days ago, I fought tykiyo in his Spit - and tukiyo is a *good* Spit driver. I had a slight alt advantage, and started to try to get him low on E and alt. Let me tell ya; it was not an easy fight and just as I got him relatively low, I ran outta fuel (was quite low to begin with) and had to rtb.
So, a well flown Spit sure is a match even for a 109 with a slight alt advantage. Especially it has this irritating habit of pointing its guns at you just as you want to make the kill, forcing you to break off.
Some Spit pilots are less experienced, and such pilots are easier to kill. Even so, when I meet a Spit, I exercise caution. When I meet a n1k with alt adv, or a c205, I become worried. A 38 with alt adv is also quite scary, same with 38 and F4U, but with the latter I can get away if he loses the alt advantage.
Basically, most planes scare me, since I know there might be an Ace of Experten flying them and AH has the best collection of virtual pilots I have met (never played Wb though, am sure there are some very skilled pilots there that would kick my butt even if they flew a C47, throttle idle, flaps down, gear down.
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StSanta
II/JG2
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So people are saying the spit IX isnt good enough? hmmm
There are many excellent pilots in AH, and many of the top ones dont fly the spit, which hurts its score, but man it is an excellent plane..If you feel that it is inferior maybe try some of the other non allied planes for a bit.
Some of the other planes are a bit faster and you need a spit 14 to even the playing field...
Well I would rather see a late spit IX or XVI with a bubble canopy and faster merlin. maybe a chopped wings option. Then you would probably get that bit of extra speed you want without the rest of us having to figure out how to beat a spit XIV.
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My argument isn't even trying to figure out how to beat the XIV- I'm sure I could. What does concern me is trying to see anything other than Spit XIV's.
Truthfully, I say add it. What I guess I mostly find humorous here is anyone suggesting the Spit IX is not competitive enough with the current plane set. It would be interesting to see a bar graph depicting the best a/c in different categories. I'm sure the Spit IX ranks in the top 80% of most categories.
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fine bring it on.
bring on the spit XIV, yak 9U, FW190D9.
do it and you will only be shooting down fw190d9's, spitXIV,spit9, P51's, Yak9U's, 109g10s.
oh there will be the diehards of the lesser aircraft which when you see, you will say to yourself: "alright! somthing other than a spitfire!"
but thats all fine and good.
I guess it dosnt matter to anyone that more people fly the spitfire than any other plane already.
we don't need variety, we only need to model spitfires. who wants to fly anything else besides those that are diehard fans of different rides?
"she really was the perfect flying machine"
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Pyro posted that AH spit 9 is F model which would make it 1942 plane.
Ah but Funked, you yourself pointed out that the current Spitfire in AH, is currently performing like the HF model which was the late war 1944 version wasn't it?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Pongo:
"So people are saying the spit IX isnt good enough?"
Yes I'm saying that! The Spit IX is 40-50 mph slower on the deck than planes like the Me 109G-10, P-51D, and Typhoon. The only thing I can outrun is a Spit V. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'd like to have at least some chance of catching the enemy when they make a mistake, or of getting away when I make one. Now it's just run run run.
So I get bored and have to switch to a non-RAF plane in order to be competitive. Which I shouldn't have to do, because the RAF had plenty of fast Spitfires when the G-10, P-51D, and other late-war-wonders were flying in the war.
"Well I would rather see a late spit IX or XVI with a bubble canopy and faster merlin. maybe a chopped wings option. Then you would probably get that bit of extra speed you want without the rest of us having to figure out how to beat a spit XIV."
Honestly, our Spit IX flies like a late Spit. IX or Spit XVI. But if the clipped wings or bubble top would help I'm all for it. Actually my squadron's historical fathers flew the Spit. Mk. XVI, so it would be neat to have one. But it's so similar to the Mk. IX in capability that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to model.
Citabria
I understand that you are worried about having too many uberplanes. In the words of the great perjurer "I feel your pain". I'm going to start another thread on how to keep the uberplanes in check. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That said, I think the fear of the Mk. XIV is overmodeled. It's significantly heavier than a Mk. IX and the turning capability should suffer accordingly. Also with that monster engine there has to be problems with trim and torque.
Think of the difference between Me 109G-2 and Me 109G-10. That's how I expect the Mk. XIV to be different from the Mk. IX.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by Kieren:
Nashwan, I just don't get it. The Spit IX is easily one of the most competitive planes in the game- in fact it's likely the best balanced of them all. You make it sound like the British have nothing good to fly.
Your continual reference to it as 1942 technology is tiresome by this time. It has already been stated before the AH Spit IX is a 1944 version. I guess I could go on to complain about the Mustang being a 1940 design, or the Lightning as a 1939 design, or the F4U as a 1940 design... you get the idea.
But, ok. Get your Spit XIV. And while you're at it give me every other 1944 plane that flew. I think I would enjoy a 262 in this case. Or my Ta152. Or my F8F.
Give it a rest. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Sparks-
I gave up asking for the Spit 14 long ago. What I don't like is that we are told it is too Uber, yet at the same time it is compared to the TA 152, the F8F etc, all planes which came out much later. The Spit 14 entered service in Jan 44, 6 months before the prototype F8F made it's maiden flight.
If you say the Mustang is a 1940 design then the Spit IX is a 1935 design. I am not talking about when the first mark of a particular plane flew, but when that particular mark flew. The Spit IX entered service, and saw combat, in the summer of 42. It's contemporaries are the P51A, the Fw190 a4 and the 109 F, not the P51D, 109 G10 etc.
The AH spit 9 seems to have the top speed of the HF, a variant that was also introduced in 42. Sadly it doesn't have anything like the climb performance of the HF.
There were no major changes to the 9 after 42, apart from the introduction of 150 octane fuel, which we don't have. Every Spit 9 is at heart a 1942 plane.
Even the Spit V we have is not allowed a drop tank for some reason, despite the fact they were in common use.
Every single US fighter in AH dates from 44 on. Can you imagine an AH in which the US plane set consisted of the P51A, P40 and P38F?
I think the whining of the Spit dweebs would have quietened down if we had been given the Tempest to play with. Instead we got the Typhoon, which has proved useless. Can you give me any logical reason why no British plane introduced after summer 1942 is included in AH?
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Funked:
Finally I see someone supporting me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pongo:
Merlin engines reached it's peak with Spit IX. So when you ask for some other Spit with Merlin engine, thare are none (There is of course Spit XVI, but it's all the same Spit IX with Packard built Merlin engine). Addition of bubble canopy and cliped wings to Spit IX won't add speed. Bubble canopy would add greater visibility and clipped wings would add roll rate, that is it. I still be stuck in situations from which I cannot escape or couldn't catch up with enemy. So it's logical to ask for at least Spit XIV, which had Griffon engine and was available for RAF units in early 1944.
mx22
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StSanta:
How's Spit IX a match for bf109G10? Can I escape from it in SpitIX? No I can't. Can bf109 escape from me? Yes very eaily, just roll, dive, extend and live to fight another time when odds will be in your favor.
mx22
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Numerically, no. In fact, if you read my comments I don't directly say don't include it. What I do say is what I fear will happen if the Spit XIV is introduced. More, I was reacting to the heavy sarcasm and intimation that the Spit IX is uncompetitive- this is not true.
If funked tells me the AH Spit IX acts like a 1944 version, I tend to believe it. And c'mon, you don't really want to say that the arena won't be full of 450mph, climb-like-scalded-cat, Hispano breathing dragons? There is my one and only point- here, on the F8F, the 262... it's all the same to me.
I'll tell you what though. Let me have a Spit IX and you can have whatever plane you want (other than a Spit). We duel. I let you jump me, you let me jump you. Assuming our pilot skill is equal (how would I know?) who do you think will win the most, or more directly, who will die the most? And what will happen if I give you the Spit IX? Same thing, but in reverse.
It's true that some planes can run away from Spit IX's, but that overlooks the fact that if said plane turns to fight it is dead. Extension for some planes is the only viable tactic against the Spit IX, and this element is what is removed by the Spit XIV.
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hehe thatsa common and well known feature of TnB planes. THey turn well but they cant run with a toejam.
I'm tired of the January 44 date of introduction for SpitXIV. SpitXIV was introduced in Late 44 (October). BEFORE THAT THEY WERE USED TO HUNT V1s!!!!!!!! And excuse me, but, for me that doesnt counts.
And if you bring SpitXIV, well do it...do it with that handling problems over 400 mph, bring it with those HUGE low speed handling problems due for the monster torque of that engine (have you tried a low speed Typhoon??? well you got the idea.)
And, of course, bring it along Fw190D9.
Ah, Mx22...STOP the Mk21 thing...or do you want us to have Ta152H? and Me262? AND GO229? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So...stop asking because you can find more than you are searching for
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by RAM:
Ah, Mx22...STOP the Mk21 thing...or do you want us to have Ta152H? and Me262? AND GO229? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So...stop asking because you can find more than you are searching for
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hey Ram,
Hunting down V1s was of a high priority thing for RAF in 1944 and that was the sole reason XIV didn't get to front line units. But whether you like it or not, it still stands that Spitfire XIV was operational in early 1944.
I never said I'm against FW190D9, TA152 or Me262 for that matter. In contrast, I think that FW190D9 and Me262 should definatly be modeled in AH as they were the meat of LW during last year of war.
I was keeping quiet about Spit XIV for long enough. I wanted HTC to first add some planes to Russian and Japanese sets. Now that these planes would be coming in next version, I think that late war RAF fighter should be modeled too. I think I'm being fair here.
mx22
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Originally posted by mx22:
Funked:
Finally I see someone supporting me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Pongo:
Merlin engines reached it's peak with Spit IX. So when you ask for some other Spit with Merlin engine, thare are none (There is of course Spit XVI, but it's all the same Spit IX with Packard built Merlin engine). Addition of bubble canopy and cliped wings to Spit IX won't add speed. Bubble canopy would add greater visibility and clipped wings would add roll rate, that is it. I still be stuck in situations from which I cannot escape or couldn't catch up with enemy. So it's logical to ask for at least Spit XIV, which had Griffon engine and was available for RAF units in early 1944.
mx22
There were later marks of Merlin. I dont know if we have the last of them here or not.
I would say that if you cant be effecitve in a spit IX in this game...you cant be effecitve. Asking for more is just asking for a wheelchair instead of a crutch.
Listen to your complaint...
"But they can get away from me!"
hardly a reason to put a better spit in.
I just wish they would model the unreliability of the hispano cannon so that the spit(and 1c) had some real quirk.
But oh well. You will likly get your way. The spit Xiv will come and it will be perfect. The D9 will come and it will be unstable or quirky or weak winged or some other LW foiable....
"Capt Brown said that those Gerrys where short so when you fly the d9 you have to choose between touching the ruder pedals or looking out the canopy..."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Kieren:
Many vs. Many Arena Combat is determined by a far different set of attributes than One vs. One Duel Combat.
"Turning Doesn't Win Battles" it was once said.
Look how much it did for the Japanese. They had planes that could out-turn anything used by the Allies, and they still got slaughtered.
It's true that some planes can run away from Spit IX's, but that overlooks the fact that if said plane turns to fight it is dead.
Well it's true that some planes can't turn with the Spit, but if the Spit tries to run away IT is dead. Trust me - there are pieces of Spit Driver splattered all over the front of my Typhoon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
RAM
If we apply your reasoning to the Fw 190D-9, the introduction date is January 1945. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I think Mk. XIV and D-9 should come out at the same time for AH, then we can both shut up and fly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Pongo:
Listen to your complaint...
"But they can get away from me!"
hardly a reason to put a better spit in.
I fly for an RAF unit. When the G-10 and Dora were in service, there were plenty of RAF aircraft (Spitfires XIV and Tempests V) that could catch either one. Do we want a historically accurate sim or a "Luftwaffe Fantasy Land"?
(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~m-waltz/glunz-.gif)
Funked At Luftwaffe Fantasy LandŽ
"Daddy I wanna ride the slide in the shape of Herman Goering's belly, can I can I can I?"
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-01-2000).]
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Originally posted by Pongo:
There were later marks of Merlin. I dont know if we have the last of them here or not.
I would say that if you cant be effecitve in a spit IX in this game...you cant be effecitve. Asking for more is just asking for a wheelchair instead of a crutch.
Listen to your complaint...
"But they can get away from me!"
hardly a reason to put a better spit in.
I just wish they would model the unreliability of the hispano cannon so that the spit(and 1c) had some real quirk.
But oh well. You will likly get your way. The spit Xiv will come and it will be perfect. The D9 will come and it will be unstable or quirky or weak winged or some other LW foiable....
"Capt Brown said that those Gerrys where short so when you fly the d9 you have to choose between touching the ruder pedals or looking out the canopy..."
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)[/b]
Ohh yes of course, I'm so sorry. How can I demand Spit XIV when Mr. Pongo feels bad enough that 1942 Spit IX(even if it's a 1944 made plane, it's still almost same old 1942 design) can kill him in his already *inferior* late war (I'm very sorry I can't say from top of my head what year it was produced, but sure enough it was later then 1943) BF109G10, FW190A8 and soon coming FW190A5.
Let me tell you once again, if you don't like your odds, in any of those planes you can simple roll away from Spitfire and extend. I can be the best pilot you'll ever see (of course I am far from that), but I won't be able to do anything about that. So yes I want a faster Spitfire, so next time you will have to at least perform some evasive manuevers when running away from me.
mx22
[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 05-01-2000).]
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Kieren, read my first post. Apart from the sarcasm, is there anything you actually disagree with? The RAF introduced several new fighters after 42, Griffon powered Spits, the Tempest, Meteor, and at the end of the war the Vampire. Which of these would you like to see in AH? Even the Tempest, the least capable of these air to air, has been labled Uber by many on these boards.
There is no 1944version of the Spit IX, apart from the ones modified to use 150 octane fuel. All other Spit IXs, the F, HF or LF, were introduced in 1942.
RAM, leaving aside intercepting V-1s (sounds like "in use" to me), how about the 3 squadrons of Spit FR14s based in Normandy in July 44, and tasked to 2nd Tactical Air Force long before D-Day. Can we have some of those? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Nashwan-
No. I think you build a compelling argument for inclusion of the XIV, only I think you need to tell me how my assessment of arena play will be wrong with it. And do you think I am wrong to say the IX is competitive, even one of the best fighters in the game? I can tell you the question I hear most often is "how do I beat the Spit in this plane?"
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Funked:
"If we apply your reasoning to the Fw 190D-9, the introduction date is January 1945"
Im not sure what RAM actually is saying ;=) but the Dora was in combat mid october onwards.
danish
Edith: and yes: bring in the Spit XIV.No problm.
[This message has been edited by danish (edited 05-01-2000).]
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Wait, Vermillion called me a Nancy Boy?
I'M GONNNNNNNNAAAAAA KILLLLLLLLLLL HIMMMMMMMMMMMM!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Avin called me a Nancy Boy on AGW today too LOL.
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Find it funny that everybody says the Spit is so slow ... when i don't have a speed advantage to start with and / or quite some altitude to dive (10K) they catch me in my F4U because that thing accelerates as if it has booseter rocket strapped on .. fact is that only if the SPitter lets you get to TOP speed he'll be left behind .. no how come we get away so often with our run planes you might ask now .. well Spit drivers seem to fight for angles 99% oftimes burning their E so much we CAN roll and dive away to live for another fight .. if you keep an eye on your E the Spit's one of the worst adversaries out there
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(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/dw601.gif)
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew (http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm)
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HOLY CARUMBA !!!
I'm now looking for the "delete first message" button ...
Just to clear up the time Frame thingy another quote from Mr. Quills magic book (I really can recommend it):-
"I flew the first production MkXIV, RB140, in October 1943. It was a splendid and potent aeroplane. We still had some work to do to improve its longitudinal and directional characteristics, but it was powerful and it performed magnificently. The only respect in which th XIV fell short was its range.....
The first squadron deliveries were on 1 January 1944 when RB142, RB148 and RB150 were delivered to Exeter to start the re-equipment of 610 (City of Chester) Squadron."
I don't think adding it would cause any problems - after all only Nancy boys fly them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Kieren, I am not asking for a Spit 14 (though my opinion is irelevant). What I would like, and what I asked for even before the typhoon was introduced, is the Tempest.
It is about as fast as other planes, but can't turn anything like a Spit. A balanced plane imho.
Failing that, how about a genuine Spit 9HF? Look at my thread Which Spit 9 to see the climb differences we are talking about.
What about having the proper ranger of armament options for the SPit. I can tell you now there were far more Spit 9s flying with 4x20mm than F4Us.
Re the Spitfires scores. We are told newbies drive the score down. I believe newbies also drive the score up. If you ask most people, they will tell you that the best plane of WW2 was the Mustang. How many newbies climb into a Mustang and try to turn and burn a Spit? T n B is the simplest way to fight, and the most common amongst newbies. You don't have to be very good to get kills in the Spit that way.
[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 05-01-2000).]
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The Tempest would be no better or worse than the F4U-1C. You would get no argument from me on that one, either.
Now, would the introduction of the Spit XIV, in your opinion, change the look of the arena overnight?
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Danish:
The 190D was actually in pretty limited service until late December 1944. Only III/JG54 was equipped with the Dora and flying operational sorties prior this point in time... and the bulk of their effort was devoted to flying top cover for Me262s taking off and landing near Aachen.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Yes, imho. That's why I stopped asking for it long ago.
If we were to get the D9 etc then we I want to change my opinion again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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My 2 cents (and they might not be popular looking at the thread)
BRING ON THE SPIT 14!!!!!!!!!
The fact is the g-10 is a superior ride to the spit 9, thats why the RAF improved on the 9 - ie the 14.
And as for the "all we'll see is spit 14's" argument - Good. When i see a spit and im in my pony or la-5 or 38 i know i can engage-disenage at will because the spit cant keep up. If it was a 14 then you'd have to be alot more onto it when chosing when to disengage. Why are you so afriad? Afraid that the standard (and im guilty of it) bounce a couple of times and run tactic wont be as effective anymore?
And yes, by all means bring in the D series 190 - im for that too.
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Supreme Mega-Overlord Spatula
"...perfect for serving"
(http://www.spatula.co.nz/aceshigh/spatula_sig1.jpg)
=357th Pony Express=
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As would I! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You know, I don't mind any plane being added, so long as the historic enemy's side has an answer to it. If the arena would have D9's and Spit XIV's that would bother me far less (much, MUCH less) than just D9's or just XIV's buzzing about.
I think we are in agreement here, and I do understand where you are coming from. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Dont want to give the impression I dont like the spit. got 2 spit xiv models right here and lots of books.
I never realized that the spit ix is slower then the 190. I realized that I could pull away from them and that the 51 and g10 where faster but not 50mph..
Are we sure there is not a faster merlin we could put in the spit XVI?...what does the HF have?
Saying that the spit XIV was developed in response to the G10 is of course backwards, it was developed in response to the FW I believe. The G10 is really a contemporary of the XIV and D9.
Well bring it on I guess you have my vote. I hope you are right about the design trade offs with weight and touque....I would like to fly it..increases our chance of getting Canadian markings on a spitfire....
It will sure cut down on the spit IX infestation....
Recognition would be interesting...Could be a big mistake to think you where atacking a spit V and finding out in your chute your mistake...
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Somtimes I sit back in my chair. In my mind I delete the name and the country of origin from all the planes modeled in AH.
I think to myself. This one does this and that one does that. This one does this well, but lousy at that. That one sucks, except for this for which it does well. This one does nothing well, but everything so so. I would use this one for that and that one for this. If I get tired of this one can I fly that one. Etc etc etc...
I finish my beer. Then I go back to hitting golf balls. I don't give it much more thought. Well, one more thought maybe. I see the wisdom in the plane set for play balance and variety. I mentally pat the guys and girls at HTC on the back.
Schwack! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Pongo said (and RAM sorta did too):
I hope you are right about the design trade offs with weight and torque....
I'm almost certain this will be be true. It's also got a backwards-rotating prop which will probably confuse some pilots, as does the Typhoon.
It will still probably be a relatively nice-handling plane, but I don't see how it could have the agility and stability of the Mk. IX or the Mk. V (which handles better than the IX).
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The Spitfire Mk IX was the "stopgap" produced to counter the Fw 190A by fitting a Merlin 61 engine into the body of a Mk V; because the proper Merlin 61 plane - the Mk VIII, wasn't ready. The Spitfire F.Mk IX in AH currently performs like the more powerful HF.Mk IX in top speed only, ie: it's about 10mph too fast. It needs to be fixed.
The first Griffon(III or IV) engined Spitfire, the Mk XII was also produced to counter the Fw 190A, mainly because they were making low-level jabo attacks over British territory. They were operational in February 1943.
The Spitfire Mk XIV was the next Griffon(65) engined Spitfire. While deliveries to units started in January, they did not become operational until June 1944.
Pongo - if you want a better Merlin engined Spitfire, to avoid confusion it should be either a Mk VIII(F,LF or HF) or Mk XVI(LF). The main difference is that they can climb faster since they have about 100hp more power.
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If spitfire 14 ever gets modeled - whining will never stop.
Only whines I have ever seen in AGW about XIV are from RAF pilots! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It does not turn like it should, bad low speed handling etc etc etc. And XIV has never been a trouble for arena balance like IX was at some point, now of course it is some other plane. Funny how IEN can throw things around with new versions of FM's and gun lethality...
I don't think XIV would be a too uber to handle. I bet it would suffer from same problems as 109G-10 which had much more engine power than the airframe was ever designed for. Sure, it can climb and fly fast but there is ways to beat it.
Of courses XIV will be modeled! And it is good.
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)
I want to believe! Fw 190F-8 / G-8 / D-9 to Aces High!
Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Typical co-E merge with Spit.
We merge full speed, 20k. HO is about to develop - I fake it, he takes it (Spit is actually a poor turner, so its drivers resort to desperate HOs). After he misses, he pulls as hard as he can to get on my 6, mostly in horizontal. I loop lazily and dictate the fight afterwards. Then they say Spit IX isn't competitive.
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LOL Hristo! You seem to be saying that the people (including me) that don't think the Spitfire F. Mk. IX is competitive enough, fly like the pilot in your little story.
It's great that you can beat a 1942 Spitfire with your 1945 Me 109.
But don't confuse the people posting on this thread with the pilot in your "Typical co-E merge with Spit".
I don't fly that way, and my squadron does not fly that way.
Please be careful who you slander in the future.
P.S. You want me to start posting G-10 driver stereotypes? Certainly there some good ones, but how would you like it if I told a story about some bad ones, and lumped you in with them?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-02-2000).]
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No no no, Spit is 1932 plane, while G-10 is from 1955 ! And it was in use until 1987.
I'd like to hear those 109 stereotype stories Funked...need a laugh righ now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As for number of Spit pilots who HO in that situation, roughly 50% of all I meet. Blame them for poor Spit score in the arena. They even HO from alt advantage.
IMO, many Spit pilots think guns and not flying.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 05-02-2000).]
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I agree with you about that 50% of Spit pilots, I just didn't like the implication that the guys on this thread were part of that 50%. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And no, I won't post G-10 stereotypes. It would just start a flame war probably. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-02-2000).]
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Hristo is right exactly.
Some weeks ago I flew Typhoon and what I found out: P-51,P-38, 109 etc tryed to avoid HO with me. Even some F4Us pilots faked HO, but all Spit drivers went HO with me as if I were in C47 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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You're a real class act Aper.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-02-2000).]
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Maybe I suck as a pilot, but I was in a fight with tukiyo. I was in a 109G10, he was in a Spit IX.
It took me a good deal of time to get him low, because he flew the Spit intelligently against the 109, keeping his speed and e up.
In the end, I was so low on fuel (even prior to engaging) that I had to bug out and rtb.
Spits are good, I think. So are 109's. They're about equally balanced, even though IMHO the Spit holds E a little too well.
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StSanta
II/JG2
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StSanta, because of the Spitfire wing design, it should "hold more energy" (have less induced drag) than the 109.
However I don't have the expertise to determine if the difference should be as large as in AH.
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Spit9 does NOT hold E very well here in AH in a turn. In WB- yes, in AH- NO!
190 holds E (speed) better in a turn with high G-load!
test it offline!
Best plane in this category is mc205/202, followed by the P38 and.. 190A8. The wings of the A8 are GOOD, very good here.
The worst planes are Typhoon and F4U, followed by La5, 109, Spit (Spit close to 109)
niklas
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Best plane in this category is mc205/202,
No way. Take your 205 more than one turn against a Spit IX and see who loses E first.
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Kieren, bleeding E has nothing to do with turnrate, radius etc. After 1 full circle with 4-5 G you´re near a sustained turn with every AC here in AH. The spit has maybe a better sustained turn, but will loose speed quicker if you start to turn from higher speeds.
climb to 10000ft (100%fuel), dive down to 450mph at sealevel, when you´ve slowed down to 400mph begin a constant 4G turn - after 360° turn the mc205 will come out with ~260mph, the spit with 220mph (use trim to hold 4G).
accerlate at sealevel to 300mph and repeat the turn with constant 3G- the mc will leave the circle with ~210-220mph, the spit with 180mph
Don´t believe it? test it. Takes only 15minutes to do it!
niklas
[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 05-02-2000).]
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funked, I agree with you, it should hold e a good bit better, but the difference is quite noticeably. As you, I am not qualified in commenting the correctness of how it is now, but my subjective opinion based on what *ive read of anecdotes is that they hold it a little too well.
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StSanta
II/JG2
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Santa, if you think the Spit in AH is bad about E retention, you should have flown against them in WB's.
It was much much much worse. It was so bad that the common joke was that the eliptical wings of a Spitfire were actually anti-gravity devices, looted from a crashed UFO.
Not saying your wrong, not at all, just saying it has been alot worse in the past.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Niklas-
I used a very simplified example to illustrate my point, and admittedly am no aeronautic engineer, but...
Speed=energy. Control deflection creates drag, bleeding speed (as does a high angle of attack and high G). If your argument is that the Spitfire loses energy more quickly through control deflection and high angle of attack than does the 205, I will have to test it to prove it. A properly trimmed Spitfire just seems to go forever in any attitude (don't believe me? Fly Jase).
What about slow speed? Admittedly the Spit may just be a better slow speed machine than the 205, but I'm pretty sure the 205 is not a better E machine than the Spit IX.
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Vermillion:
Ach! Sounds like WB overmodelled them to the point of no fun, almost.
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StSanta
II/JG2