Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Reschke on January 19, 2010, 10:01:48 AM
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I found this looking up some information to post in the bow hunters thread about the atlatl. This is some serious stuff here and sounds like crazy talk but you know the wild thing is a bunch of people are getting back to this type of living in some areas.
http://www.hollowtop.com/journals/Stone_Age_Immersion.htm
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I hear they even have internet there too. ;)
(http://inovis.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/flintstones.gif?w=510&h=399)
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I know a guy who lives in the back country in Alaska year round. No Electricity at all, only food they eat they hunt and grow, and once a year go to the nearest town (Five days by foot) to get supplies that they may need.
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why don't they have a bush pilot fly them in?
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why don't they have a bush pilot fly them in?
Not positive, but I think avgas in Alaska is going for somewhere over $5/gal... That's one reason.
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why don't they have a bush pilot fly them in?
the cost and no place to land.
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the cost and no place to land.
You're telling me this, can't land in the snow and ice? ;)
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq73/TheKinSlayer_1993/skis_1.jpg)
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Not positive, but I think avgas in Alaska is going for somewhere over $5/gal... That's one reason.
Is it not everywhere? Last I filled up it was something like $5.99/gal out here.
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You're telling me this, can't land in the snow and ice? ;)
(http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq73/TheKinSlayer_1993/skis_1.jpg)
No he's telling you this will happen, w/ or w/out those things.
(http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/planecrash640.jpg)
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Looks like alot of fun. Though I'd have to agree. After a few days in one place. I'd have to get out and about looking for the next area
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I'm with you there Dred I know I couldn't sit or stay in one area of just a couple of hundred acres. When you get down to it foraging and hunting you can cover about a 100 acres in a day if you are stalk hunting like you would have to do to survive in that situation.
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5 days on foot to get supplies, then they have to haul the supplies back on foot for another 5 days. Ever think about a mule and some horses. That's the way Jeremiah Johnson did it.
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Please tell me I'm not the only one here with a garbage can of chert and obsidian nodules and flakes? There must be others here with stone knapping tools and at least a little experience???
Some of you guys also have atlatls? I'm not the only one, right? Heck, I'm not super active in using 'em lately, but I've still got 2-3 of them around here...
The rest of you brain tan leather too, right? And have your wives help when it comes to fleshing, scraping, and stretching the hides? I know I can't be the only one who's borrowed the wife's blender for mixing up a batch of deer brain mash?
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Is it not everywhere? Last I filled up it was something like $5.99/gal out here.
$3.95 over here.
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Please tell me I'm not the only one here with a garbage can of chert and obsidian nodules and flakes? There must be others here with stone knapping tools and at least a little experience???
Some of you guys also have atlatls? I'm not the only one, right? Heck, I'm not super active in using 'em lately, but I've still got 2-3 of them around here...
The rest of you brain tan leather too, right? And have your wives help when it comes to fleshing, scraping, and stretching the hides? I know I can't be the only one who's borrowed the wife's blender for mixing up a batch of deer brain mash?
I can make hamburger helper from scratch in my travel trailer. :cheers:
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quite interesting. id go do it if it was free (which i highly doubt). Those skills always important.
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Those skills always important.
Ok, so this is where someone posts something like "especially with obama in office"
then the thread gros 3 pages in an hour before skuzzy walks in shaking his head with that "i cant take you people anywhere" look on his face and drops the doom hammer.
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Ok, so this is where someone posts something like "especially with obama in office"
then the thread gros 3 pages in an hour before skuzzy walks in shaking his head with that "i cant take you people anywhere" look on his face and drops the doom hammer.
That reminds me.
Has anyone caught that new show on the History channel "Apocalypse Man"? Kinda like "survivor man" for the city
Program discription is as follows...
Government authorities say it's "not if... but when"...a moment in the future when, just as it has in the past, some catastrophe sparks mass destruction, leaving humans challenged to find shelter, heat, food, water and defense. If that happens, would you know what to do? Survival expert Rudy Reyes journeys through abandoned buildings showing us some surprising survival techniques, including making fire from steel wool, finding safe houses and creating shortwave radio transmissions.
Caught it the other night. Cant tell you how amused I was that he kept calling a "Pry Bar" a "Tire iron"
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No mtnman, never used an atlatl, while I do have lots of arrowheads around, most of them were knapped by indians and found by my Grandfather down in the Texas, New Mexico desert. (He was border patrol)
I have experimented with knapping Obsidion a bit, but I'm far from good at it.
Brain tanning hide, yes, been there done that. Probably won't do it again anytime soon.
Skin a deer, run a trot line, butcher a deer, hog, steer, cut and package for freezing yes.
Make Jerky from scratch sure. I've even butchered out road kill when it was fresh.
I noticed that the oldest of that group was in their mid 40's, with the average 10 years younger than that.
Back when I was that young I did stuff like walking into the woods mid winter for a 2 day camp with only what was in my pockets. Now that I'm 57, I shudder to think about what that would feel like.
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I used to do the leather tanning and had started learning and experimenting with making stone tips for spears and arrows. HOWEVER I gave it all up but still remember the basics enough to make mistakes and learn from them. I too used to do a lot of things that they are doing but I did it with a "modern" knife and a small back pack. We used to make jerky all the time and it was great time with my parents and other family members.
As for an atlatl...I wish I had that kind of skill and determination...but like I posted in another thread the guys who hunt with atlatls down here are some weird dudes in more ways than one.
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No he's telling you this will happen, w/ or w/out those things.
(http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/planecrash640.jpg)
Eh, you can buff it out. :aok
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Please tell me I'm not the only one here with a garbage can of chert and obsidian nodules and flakes? There must be others here with stone knapping tools and at least a little experience???
Some of you guys also have atlatls? I'm not the only one, right? Heck, I'm not super active in using 'em lately, but I've still got 2-3 of them around here...
The rest of you brain tan leather too, right? And have your wives help when it comes to fleshing, scraping, and stretching the hides? I know I can't be the only one who's borrowed the wife's blender for mixing up a batch of deer brain mash?
I learned what an atlatl is from your brother, as that was his cpid back in the day...and yes... I asked, "What in the hell does your name mean?" :devil
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I was wondering where the hell Lynx was. :x
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I learned what an atlatl is from your brother, as that was his cpid back in the day...and yes... I asked, "What in the hell does your name mean?" :devil
LOL! Did he tell you how many people called him "Atlanta"?
I got called "Mitten Man" again last night... <sigh>
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Brain tanning hide, yes, been there done that. Probably won't do it again anytime soon.
I noticed that the oldest of that group was in their mid 40's, with the average 10 years younger than that.
I'd give up the tanning too, if I could afford to buy braintan instead. Unfortunately, I'm too poor for that, and commercially tanned leather is so inferior it's not even really worth using for most of my projects... So, it's a lot of work, but I don't see a way around it yet...
I saw the average age there too. I wonder how many of the "original" stone age folks made it to 35yrs old. I'm sure a few did, but even 30 yrs seems pretty extraordinary.
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As for an atlatl...I wish I had that kind of skill and determination...
There's nothing to 'em really. Simple to make, and materials are lying around on the ground (or sticking up out of it). Not very hard to get accurate with them either. Sure beats throwing the darts by hand. Comparable to a compound bow energy-wise.
Of course, like many things "old" they're no good anymore. Illegal for hunting all but feral pigs for the most part. Back in the day, they could kill a mammoth. But they're not good enough for our modern deer...
Here in Wisconsin, I asked for clarification on the regulations regarding stone points on arrows 2-3 years ago (Illinois has comprehensive regulations for them regarding size, shape, etc). The response I got was in the next published set of regulations- "Broadheads for hunting must be made of metal". Stone points worked for 40,000 years, and without them, we might not be here today. They're no good anymore though, apparently... Or maybe we just know better know?
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Government authorities say it's "not if... but when"...a moment in the future when, just as it has in the past, some catastrophe sparks mass destruction, leaving humans challenged to find shelter, heat, food, water and defense. If that happens, would you know what to do? Survival expert Rudy Reyes journeys through abandoned buildings showing us some surprising survival techniques, including making fire from steel wool, finding safe houses and creating shortwave radio transmissions.
I actually believe this is true, and will happen. I don't think most folks realize how fragile our civilization is, and how much of a mess things could get with a fairly minor push.
I think I could survive with my family, but I sure don't want to see and try it first hand. Makes me glad I don't live in a town, or especially a city. Those would be deathtraps for sure, in a surprisingly short time, and extremely difficult to escape.
We can't go back to the stone age, if nobody "remembers" how to survive with stone age technology. Learning how to do something simple like build a weatherproof shelter, start a fire, or make an arrowhead isn't something you want to try when your life (or your family's) depends on it. In a survival situation, it doesn't take a large mistake, or even a bunch of small ones to kill you.
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Actually Mtnman if the brown smelly stuff hit the spinning air mover I figured I'd sit tight in my basement for a month.
Then some night about 2am load the kayaks and a small amount of gear and hit the Red River. (8 blocks from my house)
Traveling mostly at night until we are far enough out not to have to worry about people so much.
I figure most will starve in the first 10 days. Half of the rest will get killed trying to attack others for food, goods, etc.
Most people don't realize or choose to believe that most City's in the US have about a 3 day supply of food on hand.
All you'd need is one piece of the puzzle to get screwed up for a week to start a cascading chain of events.
When its all over how do you build the tools to build the tools to rebuild civilization?
How many could figure out how to build even a small generator to power existing electrical equipment?
From scratch that is, simple stuff like smelting ore, drawing wire, building a bearing.
First generation after the fall will be mostly scavenging existing stuff. Alternators off cars that can be rewired to produce current etc. All the while bringing in enough food to stay alive, enough security to keep others from taking it, and shelter which up here in the North country can be tough.
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There's nothing to 'em really. Simple to make, and materials are lying around on the ground (or sticking up out of it). Not very hard to get accurate with them either. Sure beats throwing the darts by hand. Comparable to a compound bow energy-wise.
Of course, like many things "old" they're no good anymore. Illegal for hunting all but feral pigs for the most part. Back in the day, they could kill a mammoth. But they're not good enough for our modern deer...
Here in Wisconsin, I asked for clarification on the regulations regarding stone points on arrows 2-3 years ago (Illinois has comprehensive regulations for them regarding size, shape, etc). The response I got was in the next published set of regulations- "Broadheads for hunting must be made of metal". Stone points worked for 40,000 years, and without them, we might not be here today. They're no good anymore though, apparently... Or maybe we just know better know?
Not illegal for hunting deer down here but I don't know about the stone point part. As for using one I have thrown several and think that I could make one fairly easily if I had to or wanted to. I just don't have the patience to stalk into that kind of range of an animal anymore. I like taking my shots with my rifle between 75 and 100 yards now and am comfortable shooting between 200-400 with it in case I need to.
I agree with Ghosth though on the time frame for having to sit tight. Fortunately I don't think I will have to sit tight for that long; if it does go to SHTF mode down here I can put everyone in the Yukon and be out of the area within 15 minutes and at the rural home area within 2 hours.
It seems like each month we end up sending more and more canned, boxed and preserved items down to my parents place just in case. That way we can be gone quickly with just a few grab bags for clothing, guns and ammo. Right now since I go down there to hunt all my long guns are at my parents place and all I have here is a 12 gauge pump, 20 gauge auto and a handgun.
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Think- water. Food won't be a big deal right away, water will. Then, what water there is will likely be contaminated. Boiling it won't take the chemical pollutants out.
Water in the city still relies on electricity, so if that's out, it won't take long to have some pretty serious problems. The water towers supply gravity feed, but the filtration requires electricity. Drink some contaminated water and a simple upset stomach could turn deadly.
Without water, you've got maybe three or four days. Unless you eat. Then you won't get three or four days, you'll get less.
You may be right about sitting tight. I don't know. I'd tend to think that would be a mistake. I'd want to sneak out before the confusion turned deadly, and the deadly turned to contamination and desperation.
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Well your right in that water is going to be the hard one. Especially once the electricity goes out.
If nothing else that water heater in my basement is 50 gallons of pure water just sitting there.
At 1 gallon per person per day that buys me and my wife a fair chunk of time. Time to get the crazy stuff over with.
Also that's partly why I figured to ride the river. The Red River may look nasty, but its actually cleaner, fewer pollutants than most of the lakes around here. Worst case scenario, fill a 5 gallon bucket, let it settle over night, siphon off the clear water, boil it, cool it, bottle it and your set.
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i have a well but it has a electric pump, i have been looking at a manual back up for it, they fit down the same well casing beside the electric.
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I actually believe this is true, and will happen. I don't think most folks realize how fragile our civilization is, and how much of a mess things could get with a fairly minor push.
I agree with your entire post. But especially with this line in particular . And especially with our society becoming more and more reliant and dependent on modern technology. Cell phones,GPS etc in all likelyhood are going to be among the first things to be rendered useless other then a possible weapon to throw at something.
In talking to kids and many young adults these days. Im amazed at basic things they dont know how to do. Like read a map, sharpen a knife, Find NORTH without a compass, Basic first aid. Find dry wood and start a fire in the rain. Hell I've seen some that cant build a fire in dry weather without using some sort of chemical accelerant.
And much more. But all things I either learned how to do or figured out for myself how to do by the time I was 13 playing outside and away from my parents prying eyes
Much of our younger crowd Im afraid, I think is screwed. It truly will be survival of the fittest in a physical sense as might will make right. As the button "B" on the game pad will not be able to save them. And they wont be able to google the answer for instructions.
For many of the 40 and up, it will be little more then a return to our youths and remembering old lessons. Men who have spent their lives working with their hands instead of behind a desk. Will be at a distinct advantage as many will already have at least some practical and improvisation skills in using whatever is on hand to their best advantage
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Well your right in that water is going to be the hard one. Especially once the electricity goes out.
If nothing else that water heater in my basement is 50 gallons of pure water just sitting there.
At 1 gallon per person per day that buys me and my wife a fair chunk of time. Time to get the crazy stuff over with.
Also that's partly why I figured to ride the river. The Red River may look nasty, but its actually cleaner, fewer pollutants than most of the lakes around here. Worst case scenario, fill a 5 gallon bucket, let it settle over night, siphon off the clear water, boil it, cool it, bottle it and your set.
That is, provided whatever caused the cataleptic event didnt in itself or cause the river to be contaminated too due to runoff or the failure of water treatment faculities
Quarter those water rations until you find a way to resupply them. In fact scale down all rations on everything to bare minimum. Until you find a way to resupply.
Then consume the most perishable items first, the least,such as dried dogfood last. And while it may not sound particularly appetizing. Dried dog/cat food if kept dry will last a really really REALLY long time. And most people dont realise that animal feed in many circumstances has to meet stricter standards then human food.
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Well your right in that water is going to be the hard one. Especially once the electricity goes out.
If nothing else that water heater in my basement is 50 gallons of pure water just sitting there.
At 1 gallon per person per day that buys me and my wife a fair chunk of time. Time to get the crazy stuff over with.
Also that's partly why I figured to ride the river. The Red River may look nasty, but its actually cleaner, fewer pollutants than most of the lakes around here. Worst case scenario, fill a 5 gallon bucket, let it settle over night, siphon off the clear water, boil it, cool it, bottle it and your set.
Thinking like that (using the water you have "hidden" in plain sight) is probably what it'll take to survive. Just think how many folks could die of thirst, with full water heaters in the basement. Your neighbors houses will probably have water left in theirs too.
I'm set for water (if I can make it home). Our water is from a spring, it runs into the house endlessly. It keeps our tank full, and then just bypasses through a pipe and drains into our pond. It's like a garden hose that runs all the time.
One of the things that worries me the most is an EMP type issue. Man made or natural, I suppose it doesn't matter. In that theory, we could lose electricity, vehicles, and communication abilities. My house is an awesome refuge (farm, surrounded by woods and marsh), but I work 40 miles east of it. My wife and kids work 25 miles west of it. My fairly young kids are in two separate schools, 15 miles apart. Worst case scenario, how do we link up? Say I manage to get home, and they're not there. Now what?
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Thinking like that (using the water you have "hidden" in plain sight) is probably what it'll take to survive. Just think how many folks could die of thirst, with full water heaters in the basement. Your neighbors houses will probably have water left in theirs too.
I'm set for water (if I can make it home). Our water is from a spring, it runs into the house endlessly. It keeps our tank full, and then just bypasses through a pipe and drains into our pond. It's like a garden hose that runs all the time.
One of the things that worries me the most is an EMP type issue. Man made or natural, I suppose it doesn't matter. In that theory, we could lose electricity, vehicles, and communication abilities. My house is an awesome refuge (farm, surrounded by woods and marsh), but I work 40 miles east of it. My wife and kids work 25 miles west of it. My fairly young kids are in two separate schools, 15 miles apart. Worst case scenario, how do we link up? Say I manage to get home, and they're not there. Now what?
Establish a rally point. After 911 odds are the schools have some sort of contingency plan in place. Which for the first day or so will probably be followed until everything falls apart socially. So I'd establish some sort of rally point with the wife. Then get the children.
I figure you have 24-48 hours before society starts to completely unravel.
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I'd give up the tanning too, if I could afford to buy braintan instead. Unfortunately, I'm too poor for that, and commercially tanned leather is so inferior it's not even really worth using for most of my projects... So, it's a lot of work, but I don't see a way around it yet...
I saw the average age there too. I wonder how many of the "original" stone age folks made it to 35yrs old. I'm sure a few did, but even 30 yrs seems pretty extraordinary.
Braintan as in
Brain
(http://www.morphonix.com/software/education/science/brain/game/specimens/images/wet_brain.gif)
+ Tan
(http://www.naturephoto-cz.com/photos/sevcik/young-lady-on-the-beach--girl-beach-4.jpg)
=
(http://www.gowfb.com/images/Coja/Coja-Leather-EXP.jpg)
Or am I missing something? :banana:
-Penguin
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Braintan as in killing a deer, skinning it, using the brains from the deer to tan the hide into leather.
Not for the faint of heart or those with a sensitive nose.
BTW you can use plain old wood ashes to slip the hair off. :)
The process tends to be quite gross, very smelly, or very hard work, at times all 3.
But, it makes very very good leather.
Mtnman get home and wait. Discuss alternate travel routes in the case of big problems.
Or safe places to hole up until you can go find them.
Safe places to hide messages as to where your at, what route your taking.
This can be as simple as a pile of stones, with a single stone pointing direction.
"I was here, I was thinking, I'm headed this way"
Can make all the difference in the world.
If we do get hit by an EMP, you can pretty much plan on throwing power and communications out.
Anything that's electrical in nature and is powered up, unshielded will fry.
Dred, very good point about the catfood, probably would have taken a while to think about that one.
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EMP will kill electronics that aren't even turned on... Any pathways that are not fully shielded and isolated end to end will have a huge spike in electrical potential along the path, no different than hooking up the circuit to a very high amp power source for a brief instant. Coils will see even worse damage and may actually jump or twitch causing physical damage, due to magnetic fields induced from the current flow through the coil.
EMPs are interesting things to study and think about ;) Lots of possibly unexpected things can happen.
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who is going to set off this EMP and why?
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Can you think of any better way of turning the USA into a 3rd world country?
I can't, with one blow you could knock out the last real superpower.
Keeps the people around for consumers, but totally destroys our power, communications, etc.
Anything that runs on computers (and almost everything does in one way or another) would be dead.
The potential is staggering.
All it takes is one nuke exploded in the right place. Any geostationary satellites over the area would probably also fry.
Takeover is a simple matter of "taking local control to coordinate relief efforts". They could split us up any way they chose, and in that situation I bet resistance would be scattered and largely ineffective.
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who is going to set off this EMP and why?
As an example of a plausible "what if", North Korea could eventually come up with a crappy little version of their crappy bulky atomic bomb, attach it to the top of one of their big crappy rockets, and loft it at the US (or anywhere within a few thousand miles). The odds that we'll have interceptors in place and ready to go are not 100%, so it is conceivable that they could arrange a nice dirty airburst that doesn't actually kill anyone, yet causes a lot of inconvenience. There are North Koreans who think this would be a really good way to gain bargaining power at the negotiating table...
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North Korea, Iran, India, Pakistan just to name a few would in theory have the capability to do so.
Launched into space on the right orbit the chances of us being able to stop it are not great.
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http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm
Nice link here about EMP.
EMP is something that really gets me to thinking about the how and when I would be able to move my family. To get to the only fast route out of the area is about a 5 mile hike from my house but it would take us at least 5 days on the Cahaba River to get within another 5 miles of my parents location. For me this is a small problem with a really young little girl and a wife whose only time in the woods or camping has been in a motor home or a fully equipped cabin. For my boys they would learn easily and quickly since they are already learning when we camp out on hunting trips and they are both used to walking long distances albeit without anything heavier than a small day pack.
The thing is I would have to get the help of one of my like minded neighbors to help get us and the canoes there but its a dilemma since his plan is to go north and mine is to go south. Man I gotta add in some extra contingency plans for the possibilities.
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who is going to set off this EMP and why?
Well, assuming that everyone on earth just stays friendly and minds their own business, there's always the sun. In theory anyway. A modern repeat of the Carrington Event could theoretically be catastrophic.
Unfortunately, there are folks out there who don't want to just get along and mind their own business.
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Well, assuming that everyone on earth just stays friendly and minds their own business, there's always the sun. In theory anyway. A modern repeat of the Carrington Event could theoretically be catastrophic.
Unfortunately, there are folks out there who don't want to just get along and mind their own business.
It is not a question of if with the sun, but when.
That stone age living thing looks really fun, always wanted to learn how to do that stuff.
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That's what I got my shotguns, rifles, bow, fishing poles, and hunting knifes for.
First thing is to keep what you have safe. As someone else said wait it out for a few weeks while the 'cityfolk' die off then go out for supplies. Until then anyone even remotely shifty looking coming close to the house will get a nice 7.62mm suprise. The Brazos river is four miles down the road. Id load up the canoe with my stuff and start rowing. The woods around the river are packed with hog, deer, coons, and theres always the yummy catfish in the river.
Real problem wouldn't be surviving the wild it would be surviving the people would cant fend for themselves.
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Real problem wouldn't be surviving the wild it would be surviving the people would cant fend for themselves.
QFFT my friend!
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Totally agree Larry
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Man,I'm glad I live up in the great white north!
We just pack the dogsled up and move on,as long as there's snow the house is easy to make.
We dont have to practice survival it's a way of life,and our dogs go a long way to help.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
When it's real cold out,you just bring and extra dog in to sleep with.Once last year it was a 3 dog night,now thats cold....
:D
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Isn't 3 dog night a metaphor? But, wow, you really have 3 dogs that are big enough to keep you warm? Quite a challenge!
-Penguin