Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Swoop on August 31, 2001, 07:50:00 AM
-
Bollocks is it.
Excerpt from The Big Show by Pierre Clostermann.
We were at 14,000 feet and kept straight on over to the left, as if we had no intention of attacking. I took a close look at the field: the small crosses parked just where we expected them showed up on the bright green grass of early spring. I particularly noticed one, two, four, seven flak towers. Their shadows clearly projected on the perimeter track by the sun
'Look out Filmstar Leader, flak at 6 o'clock!'
Sure enough, 200 yards behind us five big black puffs from 88 mm. shells had appeared. OK, five more seconds and then I would attack. The objective was behind us and we were facing the sun. Fear caught me by the throat and stopped me breathing. Aerial combat always found me calm -
after the early stages - but flak was quite different.
'Drop your tanks, Filmstar'.
My stomach contracted and a wave of nausea swept over me - the advantage of a single-seater is that you can pass out with fear without anybody noticing.
'Quick. 180 port, go.'
This would bring us back facing the airfield, with the sun at our backs.
'Diving--full out, Filmstar!'
My nine Tempests were beautifully echeloned on my left although we were diving almost
vertically.
'Smell of flowers,' came Bay Adams voice mockingly in the earphones. Flak! Christ, what flak! The entire surface of the airfield seemed to light up with the flashes from 20mm and 37mm guns. There must have been at least 40 of them. A carpet of white puffs spread out below us and the black puffs of the 37's stood out in regular string of eight.
What flak! Physical fear is the most terrible thing a man can suffer - my heart leaped into my mouth, I was covered with sweat, with sticky, clammy sweat. My clenched toes swam in my boots.
We dived desperately into the moke…explosions and tracer to left and right crossing over and under us….bangs around our wings and sinister dazzling flashes.
We were a mile from the perimeter, 150 feet from the ground. Men were running hither and thither.
'Lower for Christ's sake,' I yelled hysterically. The broad expanse of grass, carved by the gray runways, tilted up before my eyes and rushed towards me. We were doing over 450 mph. First a hangar … a bowser … then the Messerschmitts, perched clumsily on their narrow gear, about thirty of them, with men crouching under their wings. Too far to the left, unfortunately, outside my line of fire.
A group of a dozen Arados loomed up in my sight. I fired, I fired frantically, my thumb jammed on the button. My shells formed a ribbon of explosion worming its way between the Arados, climbing up the fuselage, hitting theengines … smoke …one of the planes exploded just as I was over it, and my Tempest was tossed up by the burning gust. A Tempest touched the ground and the fuselage
bounded up in a shower of fragments of smashed wings and tailplanes. More hangars in front of me. I fired a second burst-it exploded on the galvanized iron doors and the steel tanchions.
'Look out , Red 2' My No. 2 was coming straight for me, out of control, at a terrific speed. His hood had gone. At 470 mph 20 yards to my right, he went smack into a flak tower, cutting it in two beneath the platform.
The wooden frame flew into the air. A cluster of men hanging on to a gun collapsed into space. The Tempest crashed on the edge of the field, furrowing through a group of little houses, with a terrific flash of light; the engine had come adrift in a whirlwind of flames and fragments scattered in the sky.
It was all over … almost. One, two, three … the tracer bullets were pursuing me. I lowered my head and hunched myself behind my rear plating … twelve, thirteen, fourteen … I was going to cheat …a salvo of 37 burst so close that I got only the flash of the explosions without seeing the smoke…splinters rained down on my uselage…nineteen, twenty! I pulled the stick back and climbed straight up into the sky. The flak kept on.
I glanced back towards Schwerin, just visible under my tailplane. A thousand feet below a Tempest was climbing in zig-zags, the tracer stubbornly pursuing him. Fires near the hangars, columns of greasy smoke, a fireworks display of exploding magnesium bombs. The lone Tempest caught me up, waggled his wings and formed up line abreast.
'Hallo, Filmstar aircraft, reform south of target, angels 10.'
'Hallo, Pierre, Red 3 here, You know, I think the rest have had it.'
Surely Bay couldn't be right! I scanned the 360 degrees of the horizon, and the terrific pyramid of flak bursts above Schwerin right up to the clouds, hanging in the still air. No one.
1304 hours. We had attacked at 1303 hours. The nightmare had lasted perhaps 35 seconds from the beginning of our dive, and we had lost eight aircraft out of ten….
-
Sweet Jesus, I was somewhat sleepy this morning, not anymore! 8 of 10, my God!
-
If a modified LBE ever goes this badly then we go back to training, k? ;)
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
-
Originally posted by Swoop:
If a modified LBE ever goes this badly then we go back to training, k? ;)
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
Absolutely! :D
-
The AH field ACK is a joke compared to that.
In this new version field ack a niki or spitfire (or other turn types) can make several full low alt slow circles inside field boundaries without getting shot for a long time, while any plane that passes by the acks at high speeds gets klled much faster.
And no this isnt some LW whine, you all, many P51, Typhoon and P47 drivers said they see the same thing day after day.
Something is really stupid and off in the new field acks. Plus the very idea that a single fighter is able to deack a field in 2 or 3 passes is simply rediculous. toejam with a little luck ive been able to deack the majority of a medium field in my Me109G6 using only the 13mm guns. All you have to do is fly right at the ack u wanna kill, because if you fly right at it it most likely WONT hit you, and then fire. One or two pings anywhere near the ACK graphic kills it and you then extend and go at it again.
The new field ack modeling is really poor and idiotic.
-
Well I for one never read what you posted
Swoop. Just because I am reading that book as we speak and I am nearing the end and I didnt wish to be given a spoiler :).
This is a great book,a page turnerand one that will be read over and over again by me.
I found it in a used bookstore on the top shelf, with no dust cover and the books title had faded off the hardcovers spine.
I opened it up and low and behold it was "The Big Show" by Pierre Closterman,yellowed pages and smelling faintly of something that has been stored for a long time.
The price? $3.00 Canadian,when I mentioned that the book was not exactly pristine the proprietor proceded to give me a free paperback copy of Adolf Gallands "The First And The Last"
-
8 of 10 Tempest lost??? :eek:
that's 560 perk points lost !!! :eek:
That ack must be overmodeled !!!
;)
-
Well there certainly seems to be a problem with P51's and ack. While the La7 will easily deack a small or med field without taking a ping. Get close to ack in a pony and it's a quick trip to the tower.
P47's, F4u's I've seen no problems killing acks if you come in with alt and speed.
-
I think about stories like this whenever people complain that AH flak makes it too difficult to loiter over a target.
Thanks for posting it.
AKDejaVu
-
I want beta ack back!
-
Put 40 acks on a field, make 10 tempests buzz it at 50feet/450IAS, mix it a couple of newbies who will crash on the ground...
... I think you may have the same result.
-
Bah... I can de-ack a field in one pass with my pony.
... after the first ack gets my engine, the second my flaps, the third my tail, I bail...
..then walk up to the remaining 6 or so acks and waste 'em with my .45
Piece of cake.
-
S!
The accounts I have read said attacking a field at low level was possible, but only one pass, and only if the enemy didn`t spot you prior to the attack.
No reflection on Clostermann`s courage, but the reason he survived was probably because he was the Squadron Leader and was first across the field. Tail end Charly usually was the one to get it.
Most of the time, in serious airfield attacks, Medium Bombers were used from an altitude of around 10,000 ft, or sometimes Dive bombers or Fighter Bombers against lightly defended targets.
The Germans used these techniques in the Campaigns against the French and British in 1940, as well as against the Soviets in `41. (although in the surprise attack on the Soviets, they were able to use fighters due to the lack of preparation by the Soviets) They also did the same versus the British in Greece and Malta in `41/`42.
The British and U.S. also used medium bombers to attack Luftwaffe fields in France during the big buildup to D-Day from Jan. `44 to June `44.
The focus of those attacks were the parked aircraft, hangers and fuel storage. Gun emplacements were too small to be effectively targeted, and usually couldn`t be destroyed except by a direct hit or one which landed adjacent. The bomb might kill the gunners, but the weapon itself wouldn`t be destroyed by blast or bomb splinters. New crews could be found to re-man them.
Actually diving directly at Flak positions (unless these were small caliber weapons) to strafe them was tantamount to suicide.
The reason we can get away with it in this Game is that the Strat system is geared around field capture, specifically field capture from the air. (Early versions of AH didn`t have M3`s so you had to do it with a C-47) If fighters couldn`t destroy flak by strafing, it would be much more difficult to take a field.
There is nothing wrong with this, but it isn`t historically very realistic.
It would be nice to see this changed, so that the only way the Flak defences can be taken out, other than by massed suicide attacks, is by Ground Vehicles.
The guys in the Ground attack Squadrons of the 9th USAAF, and the British 2nd TAF didn`t get nearly the glory of the Fighter pilots who flew escort or top cover missions, and they had much shorter life spans. The number of Allied Fighter Bombers shot down by German Flak continued to be very high right up until the surrender of Germany May 8th 1945.
As Clostermann said, Flak really scared him. And he was right to fear it.
The courage of the Tiffie and Jug pilots who did ground attack day after day can`t be overstated. They saw their buddies going down around them, but they persisted in doing their job.
-
Originally posted by Naso:
8 of 10 Tempest lost??? :eek:
that's 560 perk points lost !!! :eek:
That ack must be overmodeled !!!
;)
That's 8 dead fliers, all of whom probably died as scared as Closterman described... if not more so... sobering thought, isn't it?
:(
-
what a story!.
makes you think doesnt it. <S> swoop
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
The AH field ACK is a joke compared to that.
In this new version field ack a niki or spitfire (or other turn types) can make several full low alt slow circles inside field boundaries without getting shot for a long time, while any plane that passes by the acks at high speeds gets klled much faster.
And no this isnt some LW whine, you all, many P51, Typhoon and P47 drivers said they see the same thing day after day.
Something is really stupid and off in the new field acks. Plus the very idea that a single fighter is able to deack a field in 2 or 3 passes is simply rediculous. toejam with a little luck ive been able to deack the majority of a medium field in my Me109G6 using only the 13mm guns. All you have to do is fly right at the ack u wanna kill, because if you fly right at it it most likely WONT hit you, and then fire. One or two pings anywhere near the ACK graphic kills it and you then extend and go at it again.
The new field ack modeling is really poor and idiotic.
Try this offline. Set destroyobjects setting so you can kill friendly fields. Go up in your favorite ride, line up on an ack and fire one shell. (SO the counters go down one each. ) You can drop all the ack at a small field, not including the vh ack, with 16 shots, 8 from each gun. I used the spit9 with just cannon,then just the .50's and the p47's .50's.
This works in the arena's too, but I'm usually dead by the 3'rd ack also. :)
I just thought it was interesting, that's all. :D
-
Yes, an excellent story, and a truly terrifying account. Toward the end of the war, fighter-bomber attacks on airfields were actually brought to a halt, at least by the RAF. It was that bad.
-
cos it's a good one......
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
-
Wow, I'll definitely have to get that book! Swoop, which squadron was he flying for at the time, 3 (F) Sqn? (same as AH Tempest).
-
wow
this is good reading
i think the AAA in AH is very good but we just dont have enough of it
we have what? 5 guns as a small field?
they hed about 40 (!!!) all sizes and shapes
could be good to add 20mm posts and maybe even .50cals for those damn spits that keep circling low and slow
allso maybe make 1 or 2 "flack towers" which will be harder and will take a 50 ir 100 pound bomb to take out
weill sure help with the vulching ;)
-
Frankly, I've always wanted to hear the radar guns buzzing in my headphones as I go over a field with ack. Its sick, but it would add a little touch of realism to the game.
-
"The nightmare had lasted perhaps 35 seconds from the beginning of our dive, and we had lost eight aircraft out of ten…."
That's a bone chilling read when you think about it what happened and how fast.
However in the AH fantasy world called the MA those eight would have purposely augered to respawn quickly for a dweeby "rinse & repeat". And the two who made it would be harangued by the rest of thier "squat" for not augering properly and for "wasting time."
-
11 days before..
-
Originally posted by Westy
"The nightmare had lasted perhaps 35 seconds from the beginning of our dive, and we had lost eight aircraft out of ten…."
That's a bone chilling read when you think about it what happened and how fast.
However in the AH fantasy world called the MA those eight would have purposely augered to respawn quickly for a dweeby "rinse & repeat". And the two who made it would be harangued by the rest of thier "squat" for not augering properly and for "wasting time."
That there is what we call brutally honest:eek:
-
Originally posted by Eagler
11 days before..
I'll see your 11 days and raise you 2 years.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
-
In the final year of WW2 the LW began massing their AAA at the larger bases and massing their air units there as much as possible. Allied fighter-bomber raids were so numerous that having 4 or 5 'decent' defended bases (in terms of AAA coverage) meant you were going to have those 4 or 5 be swarmed and leveled. This is why you see accounts of dozens of AAA sites at LW airfields.
It is true though - the average airfield in AH has far fewer AAA weapons.
This biggest 'problem' (needs to be fixed, but would take alot of effort to get 'right' and AH2 is a more pressing 'to do' list for sure) is that the 'attack' pilots in AH know the exact position of every fixed AAA unit at an airfield. Counter AAA missions were very rare in WW2 except as done by the LW on the Eastern front (SG pilots went through a great deal of training in the supression of AAA with cluster munitions). Most of the time an attack pilot was not going to make multiple passes on the same target if it had decent AAA defense. So on that one pass he's going after the primary target. The airfields in AH, ideally, would have large areas of camoflage netting 'clutter' (picture the VH netting effect over the fuel tanks, all bunkers, and 10 or 12 'VH' that aircraft would roll from. There should be 10, 12, maybe as many as 20 'camoflaged' AAA positions. If there is only 4 or 6 active AAA weapons at an airfield, the positions they fire from should change ~1 hour after the most recent attack on the airfield.
"Just an idea"
Mike/wulfie
-
Another interesting RL tactic as described by some pilots with the 352nd FG was as follows:
Send half the attack in up high, send half down low. The high fighters would make dummy dive bombing attacks from on high, drawing the flak guns up and away from ground level. THey would drop their drop tanks as "bombs" and scoot off.
Through radio work, the second low flight would come screaming over the field at grasstop height just after the upper flight dropped their drop tanks. The AAA guns were all pointed up and thus gave the low flight a "relatively" clean run through the hot zone. But only one. They didn't come back for a second pass.
The few personal descriptions of this that I have heard of this are just hair raising, and I cannot do justice enough to them to try to repeat them here. What remains are primarily incredible impressions of P-51s streaking along at 350-400 ias at 10-15 feet above the ground, or lower, just flat out amazing to me.
BB
-
Yep and not a one of them was auotomated.
they had men in them shooting!
-
Originally posted by Replicant
Wow, I'll definitely have to get that book! Swoop, which squadron was he flying for at the time, 3 (F) Sqn? (same as AH Tempest).
IIRC the Tempest in AH is Closterman's Tempest.
-
Originally posted by Replicant
Wow, I'll definitely have to get that book! Swoop, which squadron was he flying for at the time, 3 (F) Sqn? (same as AH Tempest).
arggggggggggggggg
AH's tempest IS Clostermann tempest :)
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/closterm.htm
-
IIRC the reason we dont have mor aaa on the bases, are the frame rate hit most Computers get from all the fly'n junk they are tryin to draw.
Gunns
-
In Gerald Astors "The Mighty Eigth" A P47 pilot said, "first guy across the field get the kills, while the guys behind him get shot"
I agree we need better ack on the fields.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
IIRC the Tempest in AH is Closterman's Tempest.
Yup, I knew the AH Tempest was Closterman's (I requested 3 Fighter Squadron to HTC before Tempest out, dunno if they took notice or not?! :)), but I wanted to know if the write up was when he was with 274 Sqn or 3 Sqn? He didn't join 3 (F) Sqn until 30 March 1945.
-
In that story the author saw one Tiffie auger and one hit an AAA tower. I wonder how many actually got shot down, as opposed to crashing due to the obvious difficult terrain for a high speed NOE attack. IIRC the author didn't see anyone get shot down.
-
In AH flying over a field at 450 is deadly. Try slower, less damage...