Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hangtime on May 04, 2000, 02:18:00 PM
-
Hey.. we gotta get the p51B modeled sooner or later... why not use Bud Andersons malcom hooded 'Old Crow".
(http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/stancro3.jpg)
There were two schemes used on his B model, the one above (my favorite) and the one below;
(http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/stancro2.jpg)
Bud flew with the 357th, one hell of an outstanding FG, and they both are due the unique honor of being represented in Aces High. The 357th put the first allied fighters over Berlin on the 4th of March 1944 (along with one squadron of the 4th Group). In August, the Group escorted a fleet of B-17s to Russia, Italy and back home on one of the shuttle missions. During the airborne landing at Arnhem in September, the 357th destroyed 50 enemy aircraft in two days. The 14th of January 1945 brought what will always be "THE BIG DAY". During a massive air battle in the Berlin area, 357th Group pilots shot down 55 1/2 German fighters. No other fighter group has even come close to this score.
How 'bout it.. the 'b' stang comming to AH is a given.. lets give Bud and the 357th the recognition they deserve.
Hang
-
I'd rather see a more commonly used P51B with a razorback canopy. Oherwise no objections (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
mx22
-
You're nuts Alexei. Most PAF Mustang III's had the bubble. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hangtime, that's a Mustang Mk. III not a P-51B. Remember which country created the specs for the Mustang, then figured out how to put a Merlin engine in it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So here's my vote:
(http://www.raf303.org/308/pkg.jpg)
Mustang Mk. III of S/L Eugeniusz Horbaczewski, OC No. 315 (Polish) Sqn. RAF, June 1944. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-04-2000).]
-
Beautiful work Hang, my models always turn out good, but my painting sucks!
Did you read Buds book? Good reading.
-
YES!
(please)
-Westy
-
Originally posted by funked:
You're nuts Alexei. Most PAF Mustang III's had the bubble. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hangtime, that's a Mustang Mk. III not a P-51B. Remember which country created the specs for the Mustang, then figured out how to put a Merlin engine in it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Heh Mike,
You right, somehow didn't think that it can be of historical value for our squadron (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) So bring it on with Malcom hood and in 315th colors (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
mx22
[This message has been edited by mx22 (edited 05-04-2000).]
-
Funked! Hey that's a B/C model! Not a Mustang III !!
The RAF equivelant of the B/C model was a Mustang III. True; the Mustang III's were all converted to the Malcom Hood; but many 8th AF B/C models got the hood as well. Including Bud's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/bmodeldetail.jpg)
Although I'd sure like to see a Mustang III in Aces High with English or Polish markings, if it did appear, I'd rather it had the modifications described below...
"Numerous RAF Mustang IIIs were diverted to the interception of V-1 "buzz-bombs". Some of them were "souped up" by using a special high-octane fuel and internal engine adjustments in order to increase the intake manifold pressure and made it possible to achieve a speed of 420 mph at 2000 feet. Since the typical V-1 flew at 370 mph, this made the "souped-up" Mustang very useful against these weapons."
Polish Squadrons 306, 309,315 and 316 recieved Mustang III's. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rip; I did not build these.. I found the info and phots on Bud Andersons page.
Hang
-
Um.
Compromise?
http://users.aol.com/dheitm8612/Gstang3.gif (http://users.aol.com/dheitm8612/Gstang3.gif)
(g,d,rlhs!)
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 05-05-2000).]
-
LOL Westy!
Ya know after all this, I think I'd still rather see a Mustang I or P-51A. They lack the altitude performance of the later models, but they were lighter and easier to turn, and they had amazing roll performance.
-
I'm partial to the p-51B named
Shangri-La
-
Hi all
Yeah, nice plane that Citabria!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Yeah, I'd like to see more RAF planes, like a 2 Sqn Mustang III version... but I am not too fussed... (as long as they model a Tempest in 3(F) Sqn markings!)
'Old Crow' and 'Shangri-La' are both beauties! Bring one of them on! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
'Nexx'
-
(http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/images/resource/gentileclr.jpg)
http://www.nationalaviation.org/enshrinee/gentile.html (http://www.nationalaviation.org/enshrinee/gentile.html)
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
-
Funked, that Mustang III in polish colors is gorgeous.. gets my vote. I'd not be ashamed to fly it... but I'd like to see old Crow #1 modeled to honor Anderson and the 357th. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) maybe we can talk HTC into both a Mustang III and a P51B.
And since the hooded P51 b/c & Mustang III's were stronger, lighter and had better all around visbilty; as well as being more agile with better departure characteristics than the more famous P51D... well I'd rather have one of those than a P51A or a D.. And, If I was to go with an Allison Mustang; gimme a Mustang II fer track hunts; not a Mustang I! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Awsome painting; that... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
-
Originally posted by Hangtime:
And since the hooded P51 b/c & Mustang III's were stronger, lighter and had better all around visbilty
I still cant imagine why a Malcom Hood has better all around visibility than a bubble canopy...Is as if you compare Spitfire IX visibility from the cockpit to that of Typhoon. Typhoon has much better vision that SpitIX.
-
It's true, with that fishbowl canopy the pilot could actually see better than he could from a D model.
From the horses mouth...
"After the Mustang III aircraft had been delivered to England, the RAF decided that the hinged cockpit canopy offered too poor a view for European operations. A fairly major modification was made in which the original framed hinged hood was replaced by a bulged Perspex frameless canopy that slid to the rear on rails. This canopy gave the pilot much more room and the huge goldfish bowl afforded a good view almost straight down or directly to the rear. This hood was manufactured and fitted by the British corporation R. Malcolm & Co., and came to be known as the "Malcolm Hood". This hood was fitted to most RAF Mustang IIIs, and many USAAF Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51B/C fighters received this modification as well."
Further...
"... many pilots regarded the Malcolm-hooded P-51B/C as the best Mustang of the entire series. It was lighter, faster, and had crisper handling than the later bubble-hooded P-51D and actually had a better all-round view. Its primary weakness, however, was in its armament--only four rather than six guns, which often proved prone to jamming. Some of the modifications applied to the P-51D to improve the ammunition feed were later retrofitted into P-51B/Cs, which made their guns less prone to jamming. With modified guns and a Malcolm hood, the P-51B/C was arguably a better fighter than the P-51D, with better visibility, lower weight, and without the structural problems which afflicted the D. Its departure characteristics were also more benign."
The above from Baughers outstanding treatsie on the B/C model Stangs. Link below. Excellent reading, BTW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_8.html (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_8.html)
Hang
-
The P-51D had a pretty big armor plate behind the pilot's head, maybe this is what they are talking about?
The P-51B/C is not a good comparsion to the Spitfire because the B/C has those nice windows on the sides behind the canopy, and a narrow structure behind the pilot's head.
Well just have to go sit in one, or wait and see what the 3D models are like.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-05-2000).]
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-05-2000).]
-
"Pretty big armor plate"..? The only plane I've ever seen with a large armor plate behind the pilot is the P-47D. That was 3/4 inch armor plate steel. 109 E and F models had a 1/2 inch plate behind the pilot's head.
If you look at enough pictures, and read enough about a plane, eventually you'll come across armor thickness. Then again, I got lucky; my grand-dad flew 109 F thrugh 109 K models. He might not know the exact thickness, but he can telly you what it sounded like when a round hit that plate!
Flakbait
-
Yep there was armor plate behind the head of the pilot on all P-51B/C/D during the war. It's been removed from a lot of civilian aircraft that are still flying.
I found some pictures and technical drawings of the plates, and the B/C had one as big or bigger than the D.
So my guess now is that the Malcom hood let the pilot move his head over and to the sides of the armor more easily than the bubble canopy on the D.
However the D canopy is pretty roomy as well...
-
All US fighters built after the US entered the war had pilot armor. The armor behind the pilot in a P-47 was 3/8 inch. All according to AHT.
ra
-
Here here Hangtime I couldn't agree with you more. The P51B-15 Old Crow with Malcom hood, D-day markings and a partridge in a friggin pear tree. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
(http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kalger/sig.gif)
"Sorry can't talk now, gotta shoot."
-Bud Anderson
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 05-05-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 05-06-2000).]
-
P51B = Mustang Mk. III, same plane different countries. Oh.. only if Ronnie Harker hadn't flown that P51A... no Merlin for the stang, 410/190 feeding ground.
Still thinks the F4U should have the '44 # 29 Kepford markings, amazing pilot.
-
Hang,
January 1945 brought what will always be "THE BIG DAY". During a massive air battle in the Berlin area, 357th Group pilots shot down 55 1/2 German fighters. No other fighter group has even come close to this score.
And where was Anderson on that day? Hehe He and Yeager were buzzing a lake side resort in Switzerland (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Sharky
-
Yup. Yeager was goin home next day.. and the two of them went fer a last Mustang joyride together.. tho they were never wingmen; they were great friends.
Of course had they known about what was happening over berlin... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
-
Quote:"The 357th put the first allied fighters over Berlin on the 4th of March 1944 (along with one squadron of the 4th Group)."
I have to disagree here.
55th Fighter Group was the first Fighter Group to fly over Berlin (hence the nickname: "Berlin Buzz Boys"). They operated the P-38 at that time.
Quote from book "The 55th FG Vs. Luftwaffe" by John Gray: Chapter 8 "First to Berlin:
"On 3 March 1944 Berlin was visited by the 55th earning them the name "Berlin Buzz Boys" since they were the first fighter group to fly over the Nazi capital...The mission was led by Lieutenant Colonel Jack Jenkins, and only 20 P-38s swept north through the outskirts of Berlin. Several enemy fighters were observed but fled before they could be engaged"
-
I take it then, the P-51B will be slightly more difficult to shoot down than the P-51D?
It will take what? An extra 7-10 seconds?
I can live with that!
Okay! Thanks! Noted! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Bring the LW fodder on!!
PS Beautiful Model!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-10-2000).]
-
I could not agree more Hang. Bud Anderson is an American hero, and a living legend. Old Crow NEEDS to be here. Anyone with more than a passing interest in WWII aviation should read Bud's book, "To Fly and to Fight".
-
yeah they should I'm going to have to run out and buy another copy because I've beaten my first copy into the ground it started coming apart so I glued it back together again now it's coming apart again hehe. I really really hope HTC gives us the Old Crow for the P51B.
------------------
(http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kalger/sig.gif)
"Sorry can't talk now, gotta shoot."
-Bud Anderson
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 05-11-2000).]
-
I loaned my copy to my brother years ago. The useless salamander with ears won't give it back.
I got even tho.. I got his wife so drunk; then we ...
... but thats another story. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yep Swager.. the P51B is a more than a competent airplane. It's faster; lighter; stronger than a D model. It accellerates better. It turns better. It climbs better. roll rate is better. It's only weakness is the guns.. only 4 .50's.
I can live with that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Muahhhhhhhhahahaaaaaaaaaaa!
Hang
-
Did someone say only 4 guns?
(http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/photos/color_photo_p51a_03.jpg)
P-51/Mustang Ia anyone? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
<PUNT!>
It's TIME!!!
-
Yeah baby. :)
I see three versions:
A-36 USAAF
Mustang Ia RAF - 4 x 20 mm
P-51 USAAF - MG's only :D
-
Originally posted by Hangtime:
The 357th put the first allied fighters over Berlin on the 4th of March 1944 (along with one squadron of the 4th Group).
Not to split hairs, but the P-51 was not the first American escort fighter to fly to Berlin and back. P-38s from the 20th and 55th Fighter Groups own that honor. They had the "over the target coverage" on March 3rd. All the P-51s aborted with the bulk of the bombers due to poor weather. In contrast, the 75 B-17s being covered by the 20th FG continued on to Berlin and dropped their bombs. Jack Jenkins took his 55th FG over the city never having located their bombers who had long since turned for home. The 357th's Mustangs finally made it the next day, however, like the 55th the day before, the bombers they were supposed to be escorting had already diverted to secondary targets, once again due to heavy cloud cover over Berlin.
Any claim by Mustang pilots is little more than wishful thinking. The facts can be found in the official record.
The 55th earned the sobriquet of The Berlin Buzz Boys for their low level beat-up of the German capital on March 3, 1944. If Goering had looked up that day, he would have seen Lightnings whistling by, too low to be engaged by the heavy flak batteries guarding the city.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Not to spilt hairs...
Thank god fer that! ;)
Any claim by Mustang pilots is little more than wishful thinking. The facts can be found in the official record.
Whew; glad now that thats settled.
Funked... I applaud your choices, but I think there's room in there for a Mustang III also. I think the diffrences between it and a high alt P51B config are as say.... well hell, lets just say as significant as the diffrence between a 109g2 and a g10. :D
(can hear the LW rushing for their keyboards)
-
(http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/jannousiainen/galleries/scale_models/ju_87b-2_02.jpg)
Hijack! That is my Ju 87B-2 model I recently finished :)
-
What scale and manufacturer, Jochen ?
Any recommendations for Me 262A-1a in 1/48 ?
[ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]
-
Hristo there is only one good modern 1/48 scale Me262. There is also an older Monogram Me262.
The good one is the old Trimaster kit, which was then sold under the DML/Dragon brand.
I have read that it will son be re-issued by Italeri, so I think this will be your best chance to get one.
BTW that looks like Hasegawa's 1/48 Stuka.
-
Just ordered DML/Dragon, even though it is discontinued. Will see how it goes.
-
Yep, it is Hasegawa Ju 87B-2 kit. Only modification was to replace molded flap and aileron actuators with wire, makes a lot better looking model!