Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MadBirdCZ on February 05, 2001, 04:40:00 PM
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What about putting in a Caproni Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario instead of that 202?
I dont know it just came over my mind...
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MB
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Yes pleaseeee.....
Brady
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcDEJznXbXfCxAJfgD0a7w1sDVrWuMP28UBOabRCH339Yvya3KrR2Q8UMjrBJ)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-06-2001).]
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Sparviero!
Pepe
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Yep !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
We have all the data for Reggiane RE 2005 "Sagittario"
and more data for SM 79 "Sparviero" ( engine performance included (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
Maxo
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Give me this plane!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(http://digilander.iol.it/gnappoah/immagini/RE2005v1.jpg)
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¸·´¯`·¸_¸·´¯`Gnappo´¯`·¸_¸·´¯`·¸
1° Gruppo Caccia "Asso di Bastoni"
http://digilander.iol.it/gnappoah/ (http://digilander.iol.it/gnappoah/)
(http://digilander.iol.it/gnappoah/immagini/logo1gr.gif)
[This message has been edited by Gnappo (edited 02-06-2001).]
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I'd like to see a Piaggio P.108 B. Nice looking plane. Even comes with remote controlled turrets on the outboard engines.
(http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/images/piaggio_p108_01.jpg)
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Piaggio P.108 B, a realy cool bomber, would love to see it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Brady
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(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&photoId=nHwCwcDEJznXbXfCxAJfgD0a7w1sDVrWuMP28UBOabRCH339Yvya3KrR2Q8UMjrBJ)
[This message has been edited by brady (edited 02-06-2001).]
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Originally posted by Frosty1:
I'd like to see a Piaggio P.108 B. Nice looking plane. Even comes with remote controlled turrets on the outboard engines.
(http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/images/piaggio_p108_01.jpg)
Also came with a four-inch naval gun in the nose...
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Naaah, bring the G.55 "Centauro". PYRO has the original flight manual and all the profiles needed (cockpit included). Intersting are the armament options:
- late variants: 3x20mm (1 in the nose, 2 in the wings) and 2x12,7mm in the engine cowling;
- early variants: 1x20mm (in the nose) and 4x12,7mm in the engine cowling.
Superfly, the italian a/c experten, needs only enuff time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/g55.jpg)
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8780/reference/italy/6stormo.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 02-07-2001).]
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RE2005 SAGITARIO
The Sagittario was known as one of the great Italian fighters which rivaled (or even surpassed) the best products from the American, British and German aircraft industries.
It had a very brief operational career, beginning in 1943, though it suffered from a structural defect in the rear fuselage manifested at very high speed (987 kmh !!! But FIAT make very bad emphasis to help G55 sell) at owhich suspended flights later that year.
Apart from this defect, the Saggitario was in some ways, such as maneuverability, definitely better than its direct competitor, the Fiat G 55.
The prototype first flew in 1942 and struck some observers as the best fighter to come from the Reggiane factory.
The Re 2005 was also the last fighter built by Reggiane to fly.
SPECIFICATIONS
Designer(s):
Preliminary Design (A05/0901, 11 December 1941): Ing. Giuseppe
Maraschini.
Team Leader: Ing. Roberto Longhi.
Managing Director: Ing. Antonio Alessio.
Aerodynamics and Stress: Ing. Maraschini.
Weights and Installations: Ing. Pozzi.
Structures: Ing. Toniolo.
Mechanical Engineering: Ing. Vardenega.
...and others |2|, including: |5|
C.T. Giovagnoli.
C.T. Costa.
C.T. Zocchi.
C.T. Ballabeni.
C.T. Vardenega.
Type:
Fighter.
Powerplant:
Re 2005 prototypes: One 1,475 hp Daimler-Benz DB 605A-1 V-12 inline liquid-cooled piston.
Re 2005: One 1,475 hp Fiat RA.1050 RC 58 Tifone (license-built
Daimler-Benz DB 605A-1) V-12 inline liquid-cooled piston.
Re 2005R: As Re 2005, plus one 370 hp Fiat A-20 auxiliary engine driving two Campini superchargers.
Take off pwr: 1,475 HP
Pwr on ground: 1,310 HP
Max pwr at 18,800 ft: 1,355
Normal pwr at 18,800 ft: 1,250 HP
Economic cruise pwr: 890 HP
Fuel system:
Fuel tanks: 3 (1 in each wing, 1 behind pilot seat)
Total fuel: 153 USGals (950 lbs)
Dimensions:
Span: 36 ft 1 in / 11 m.
Length: 28 ft 7 3/4 in / 8.73 m.
Height: 10 ft 4 in / 3.15 m.
Wing area: 219.58 sq ft / 20.4 m2.
Mean chord: 6.1 feet
Wing ratio: 6
Weights:
Empty: 5,732 lb / 2,600 kg.
Maximum: 7,960 lb / 3,610 kg.
Wing load: 35.7 lbs/sq ft
Performance:
Re 2005 (actual; official Regia Aeronautica tests, 1942 - 1943)
Max speed:
6,560 ft / 2,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
13,120 ft / 4,000 m: 351 mph / 565 kph
22,800 ft / 6,950 m: 390.5 mph / 628.5 kph
22,965 ft / 7,000 m: 421 mph / 678 kph
Cruise speed: 320 mph / 515 kph
Time to
6,560 ft / 2,000 m: 1 min 55 sec
13,120 ft / 4,000 m: 4 min 28 sec
19,685 ft / 6,000 m: 5 min |2, or 7 min 25 sec
Service ceiling: 37,730 ft / 11,500 m
Range: 609 miles / 980 km.
Armament:
Two 12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine guns with 350 rounds each in upper
engine cowling.
One 20 mm Mauser MG 151 cannon with 150 rounds firing through
propellor hub.
Two 20 mm Mauser MG 151 cannon with 200 rounds each in wings.
Up to 2,200 lb / 1,000 kg bomb or fuel tank under fuselage.
Two wing hardpoints for 353 lb / 160 kg of bombs or fuel tanks.
Crew: One.
HISTORY
Design initiated: 1941.
Roll-out: ?
First flight:
Re 2005 MM494:
30 April 1942 (unofficial).
9 May 1942 (official).
10 May 1942 (official).
September 1942.
Initial production order (18 pre-production, 750 production aircraft):
February 1943.
Production initiated: March 1943.
Service entry:
Zero Series: May 1943.
March 1943.
Operational Units:
Italy (Regia Aeronautica):
362a Squadriglia of the 22o Gruppo: First prototype, zero series, pre-production.
371a Squadriglia: two ex-362a aircraft.
Italian Air Force Markings.
Italy (Aviazone della Repubblica Sociale Italiana):
Three to six used as trainers.
Squadriglia Addestramento Caccia, Caselle,January-July 1944:
Six ex-Regia Aeronautica aircraft.
Germany (Luftwaffe): Two prototypes, eleven pre-production, plus an unknown amount of others.
Romania: Second prototype reportedly from Germany.
USA (USAAF): one captured at armistice.
Pre-series Reggiane Re 2005 Sagittario.
The second Re 2005 prototype, MM495, with
German-supplied DB 605 and VDM propellor, had a top speed of
447 mph / 720 kph at 23,950 ft / 7,300 m.
The Reggiane Re 2005 Sagittario was the ultimate refinement of
a series of Italian fighters which started with the Re 2000 Falco I
and continued with the Re 2001 Ariete I and Re 2002 Ariete II. The
Re 2003 was a reconnaissance variant of the Re 2000, and the
Re 2004 was an unbuilt proposed development of the Re 2001
with the troublesome 1,250 hp Isotta-Fraschini Zeta RC 24/60 24
cylinder X-type engine. The Sagittario utilized a much-refined
fuselage, a wing of new design, and rearward-retracting landing
gear.
Design was initiated in 1941 by Ing. Roberto Longhi, and the
Sagittario was to be the final Reggiane design to fly. Construction
of the first of two prototypes, MM494, was completed in
December 1941, minus the German-supplied Daimler-Benz DB
605A engine, which vanished in transit, finally being found at a rail
station in Milan in April 1942! Upon installation of the powerplant,
MM494 was readied for its first flight. Sources vary as to the exact
date of this event. However, several days before the official flight,
the craft took to the air with Tullio de Prato piloting. The flight was
apparently uneventful until he prepared to land, whereupon it was
discovered that one of the main landing gear legs was not locked
in place. De Prato promptly retracted the gear and made a belly
landing, with the prototype amazingly suffering no damage. The
official first flight was made several days later. The aircraft was
evaluated over the course of several months and performed ably,
but only the protoypes and a 16-aircraft zero series had been
ordered by the end of 1942, all of which were hand-built by
Reggiane. By February 1943, 18 pre-production and 750
production Re 2005's had been ordered by the Italian Aeronautics
Ministry. The possibility of up to 1,000 more aircraft being built
was considered, with Breda, Aerfer and Caproni as
second-source manufacturers. Sweden also was interested in
procuring rights to build the Sagittario under license, but the 1943
Armistice halted these plans.
Reggiane Re 2005 Sagittario.
In May of 1943, the first Sagittarios entered limited service with
the Regia Aeronautica. The first prototype and several of the zero
series aircraft were used operationally by the 362a Squadriglia,
22o Gruppo at Naples-Capodichino starting in May 1943, being
used to defend Rome and Naples. On July 10, eight of the aircraft
were transferred to Sigonella to defend against the Allied invasion
of Sicily. Only two aircraft survived, which then went to the 371a
Squadriglia at Reggio Calibria. These aircraft were soon
destroyed on the ground by Allied aerial attacks. The strength of
362a Squadriglia was increased with the addition of ten
pre-production Sagittarios in July 1943. The squadron had
developed a rather daring method of attacking Allied B-17s which
involved diving head-on with all guns blazing, then flipping the
aircraft over on its back and diving away at the last minute.
At the time of the Armistice, the zero series and 13 of the 18
pre-production aircraft were completed, with work proceeding on
the first production aircraft. Only two aircraft remained with the
362a Squadriglia, neither of which was in flying condition. Both
were burned to prevent capture by the Allies. The two protoypes
and 11 of the pre-production aircraft were taken to Germany,
possibly being used to defend Bucharest and Berlin; their fate
thereafter being unknown. At least one Re 2005 was captured by
the U.S., and the fuselage of one Re 2005 survives in the Museo
Aeronautico Caproni di Taliedo in Milano.
While the Re 2005 was the last fighter built by Reggiane to fly, it
was not Reggiane's last project. A twin-fuselage variant of the Re
2005 was proposed but almost immediately abandoned. Another
proposal, the Re 2005R, would have had an extra 370 hp Fiat
A-20 engine in the tail driving two superchargers, one for the
primary powerplant and the other providing exhaust thrust at the
tail. However, similar performance could be obtained with less
complexity by installing the more powerful 1,750 hp DB 603A,
which is precisely what was planned for the Re 2006. Two
airframes (serials MM540-541) were being built in 1943 - 1944.
The first was completed but never flown, and was given to the
Milan Polytechnic after being made unflyable: the engine,
armament and landing gear were removed and the fuselage and
wings were cut in two. The second Re 2006 was converted to
become the basis for the jet-powered Re 2007. It was about
halfway finished and was awaiting arrival of German-supplied
Junkers Jumo 004 B turbojets, which never arrived due to the end
of the war. It was taken by the Allies, along with the plans, in July
1945. Fewer Re 2005s were built than its contemporaries, the
Macchi C.205 and Fiat G.55, both of which achieved some
post-war success. This, along with the advent of the jet age,
ensured that the Re 2005 did not see any further development
post-war.
Users:
Italy, Germany.
Number built:
Re 2005: Two prototypes, serial numbers MM494, MM495; and one
static-test airframe
Re 2005: Zero series (Serie 0), 16; serial numbers MM092343-092358
Re 2005: Pre-production series, 18 ordered (at least 13 completed); serial numbers MM096100 - 096117
Re 2005: Production Serie I, 750 ordered (unknown number completed)
Re 2005R: None.
Total:
At least 35 (three prototypes, 16 Zero Series, 13 of 18
pre-production, plus a few production aircraft), probably
up to 37.
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The real problem is that italian have no attak capability at all at the moment so for upcoming scenarios we need some plane able to drop bomb could be :
Re2005
G55
Re2002
Sm79
Sm84
p108
Cant.Z.1007
PYRO plese give us at least one of them !
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fabrika6, there is very little chance of seeing the Re.2005 as such tiny numbers were built.At least the G.55 was produced in the low hundreds.I see almost NO chance of the Saggitario coming to AH, except as a perk fighter perhaps - not because it is superior to normal AH fighters, but because it was built in such small numbers.
Also, if I understand correctly, the performance figures you gave were from 2005 prototype tests using the DB605 and *not* the licenced built Fiat Tifone (Typhoon) powerplant.Due to several reasons , including the *extremely* fine tolerances employed in the construction of the DB 605, the Fiat versions were often inferior and a Fiat powered Re.2005 was probably somewhat slower than the DB 605 powered 2005's.I understand that the 13 or so 2005's taken by the Germans back to Germany for Reich Defence duties were re-engined with original Daimler Benz DB 605's s o that gives you an idea of the differences between the German & Italian DB 605's.
As for the G.55 being a bad choice instead of the Re.2005, I say rubbish! The G.55 was one of the best fighters of the war, and even though its level speed was fairly modest for a mid-late war fighter (I understand that the figure of 385mph seen in most publications is actually *lower* than the actual max airspeed of operational G.55's), it had better high altitude performance & handling than the 2005, and by all accounts, the G.55 had a better climb-rate (especially at higher altitudes) than the Saggitario and was even more maneuvrable.
I'm not saying the G.55 was better than the Re.2005, but that they were different, yet probably equals overall.The difference is that more G.55's were built and used.The Re.2005 saw very little action, unfortunately, because of the small numbers produced.I would love to see both in AH, but if I had to choose, I would say 'Centauro !!!' immediately ! ;-D
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I hope to see Re2005 and G55,
the Re2005 give the possibility to build variants like Re2001 and Re2002 ("attack" planes).
G55 and Re2005 are very similar in performances, very capable high alt fighters but whit a low top speed for late war era.
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You know, Luftwaffe test pilots combat-tested the G.55, the Re.2005, the C.205 (even the N type), the 190A-5 and the 109G-4 during february 1943 at Guidonia airport (Italy). As you can see some of them had early-variant armament. Anyway, they found the G.55 the best one after the 190A-5. The G.55 was also the only axis fighter ready to mount the mighty DB-603 engine (1,750hp). *This* one could be a very good perk-plane.
(http://web.tiscalinet.it/gatt/guidonia.jpg)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 02-12-2001).]
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don't worry, we will see the G55 first (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The little differences between the 2 planes are:
G55
Better stability. Better maneuverability at high speed.
Re2005
Better turn radius and aerobatic maneuvers. Better visibility.
I have an evaluation table of Italian test on the prototype (C.S.A.) :
1st G55 21 points
2nd Re2005 20 points
3rd C205N 18 points
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Gatt, the G.55 with DB 603 was called the G.56 & only 1 or 2 prototypes were ever built, so why do you think we would even get it as a perk plane.I can assure you know, 100%, we will never get the G.56 with DB 603 - perl plane or otherwise, so plz come back down to earth from your wishful day-dreaming ;-)
As for the Re 2005, I don't believe we will ever see that in AH either.I'm 85-90% sure of that.However, I believe that eventually there is a *very* strong chance that we will get the G.55. Those of you who are hoping for the Re.2001/2002 etc., forget about it.Unless we have an RPS we will not see them, and even if we did, I believe there is a 95% chance (or more) that we will NEVER seem them either.
What you don't seem to understand is that HTC does not really seem to be interested in Italian fighters guys - plz get that straight.Dreams of getting the Re.2001/2002/2005 (and the G.56 LOL) are simply fantasies.
I'll tell you something.About 5 months ago, Pyro was online in the AH MA.I asked him whether he was going to introduce other Italian a/c to AH and he flat-out told me that besides the G.55 he didn't see a need 2 bring in any other Italian a/c.Now, I hope he just meant fighters and not bombers also, because I think we should at least have 1 Italian bomber (IMHO, the SM.79 if we only got to have one Italian buff) in AH.
What you don't seem to realise is that whilst there is a hard-core of WW2 aviation fans who want to see more Italian a/c, there is very little enthusiasm for Italian a/c in AH. HTC doesn't seem to be very interested, and the average AH player doesn't even seem to know that Italy produced a/c as good as the G.55 and Re.2005 during WW2.Add to that the fact that most Italian a/c were built in relatively very small numbers, and you have a situation where the chance of getting many more Italian a/c is relatively small.
I can appreciate your excitement & enthusiasm regarding having more Italian a/c in AH, but I think you should bring your expectations back down to earth, as you don't want to be any more disappointed than you have to be.Personally, I would like ti see the G.55 & Re.2005, the SM.79, Cant.1007 bis & Piaggio P.108, but I believe that other than the G.55 (and *maybe* the SM.79), we will NOT see any other Italian a/c in AH.So dreaming "what-if"is nice, but plz don't raise your expectations because you will be very disappointed guys.
That's the reality, unfortunately.We get a/c like the F4U-1C in AH (which should be only a perk fighter at BEST) but a/c like the G.55 which should be in aren't...
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If the plane set ended on July 1, 1943, the Italian aircraft would be at the top of the
list (or at least close).
But the war went on, and the true "perk" Italian aircraft did not get built. :-(
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Hi Caldwell,
my feet are on the earth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And I dont think that "HTC does not really seem to be interested in Italian fighters" since actually we have 2 of them in a pretty small plane set. The first two ever seen in a flight simulation, online or offline. I know PYRO likes the G.55, I sent some stuff some time ago and he told me something like "eventually ...". Thats enuff for me and I think for most of the AH italian players. Three italian fiters? Simply unbelievable only 1 year ago. Look, Warbirds took 5 years before even planning to do it. And it is a third party model, not a iEN one. We know it since we've been helping Lemsko for a long time.
About the G.56 ... if we have the F4U-1C we can really model the DB603 engined G.56. Is it all a "what-if?", then you can do it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Gatt, I'm not sure whether I said that HTC aren't interested in Italian fighters.I know I did say that they are not very interested- there is a difference ;-).I'm very grateful we have the C.202 & 205 - don't get me wrong.Yes, HTC is alone in simulating ANY Italian WW2 military a/c, & 4 that I'm glad.
However, the C.202 & 205 , great as they are IMHO, are still the base-line & easiest Italian fighters 2 include in a plane-set.It's like building a Spit V (or the C.202 in this case) & then modifying the 3D model slightly & giving the FM a thorough tweak and producing a Spit IX (or a C.205 in my analogy).It's the easiest and most logical way of producing a couple of excellent Italian fighters, and HTC should be commended 4 their work.
I think now, however, that it's time 4 the mighty 'Centaur' - the Fiat G.55 2 rear its head in AH.I think that HTC would be right in making the G.55 the last Italian fighter modelled in AH.Considering the relatively small number of fighters built by Italy during WW2 (only a few thousand), having 3 of the best Italian fighters of WW2 in AH would be just fine (of course, we would love ALL of them 2 be modelled, but it's not going 2 happen).
I would hope, however, that HTC introduces an Italian bomber, and if we had 2 choose just 1, then IMHO it would have 2 be the Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 (or S.79 as it is commonly known).One of the best medium bombers of WW2, its service is legendary in the annals of Italian military aviation.It would make a great level bomber, & even more importantly now that we have sea units, a superb torpedo-bomber.Although it wasn't 1 of the fastest medium bombers of its time & its defensive armament wasn't that heavy, it was by all acounts extremely tough & durable (more so than the Ju-88 or Do-217 4 instance) & would give AH an Italian bomber 2 use in scenarios & by fans of Italian military a/c in MA.
Gatt, the reason we won't get the G.56 is simple - only 1 or 2 prototypes were ever made!! At least the F4U-1C ,of which only about 150 or so were built,served with 3 or 4 units during WW2.Whilst I personally think the Chog should be perked and has no place in AH un-perked, it would be ridiculous to expect the G.56 to be modelled in AH!! If we can't even get the Re.2001/2002/2005 modelled in AH (and they actually served operationally, though in small numbers, especially with the Sagittario) how on earth do you expect the G.56 to be modelled, especially since only 1 or 2 protos were ever built & it never flew operationally?!?!
Can you imagine the flood-gates that would be opened if HTC included the G.56 (which I am 1000% sure will NEVER happen)? There are dozens of excellent fighters of which only small numbers of prototypes or pre-production a/c were built during WW2!! We could have the Me 209, the Ta 152C, Go 229 etc etc etc. I'm sorry Gatto, but though you say your feet are planted squarely on the ground, I think you may still be in LEO (Low Earth Orbit) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) .
There is simply no logical reason whatsoever 2 include the G.56.Now if HTC had unlimited funds & were trying 2 model every fighter designed and/or tested during WW2 & instead called the sim X-AH (eXperimental Aces High ;-D ) then the G.56 would be a possibility.Otherwise, I'm not sure how you could have ever hoped to see the G.56.Sorry mate, it simply makes no sense at all.It's always nice 2 dream though ...
[This message has been edited by C_R_Caldwell (edited 02-14-2001).]