Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: funkedup on June 29, 2001, 03:14:00 PM
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As Pyro has stated (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/001267.html), and as supported by some performance test comparisons, the AH Spitfire Mk. IX has a Merlin 61 engine.
To the best of my knowledge, all of the Merlin 61 aircraft were built in 1942 and carried the C wing with .303 guns. These included the first 100 or so Mk. IX aircraft which were actually modified Mk. Vc airframes. The C wing was standard on the Mk. IX until after the Merlin 61 was phased out and replaced by the Merlin 66 or 70.
Spitfire C or E wings had a pair of closely-spaced gun tubes in each wing, which were originally intended for a pair of 20 mm cannon. C wing aircraft (e.g. Mk. Vc) usually had a cannon in each inboard gun tube, with each outboard tube blocked off, and a pair of .303 guns in the outboard part of each wing. E wing aircraft (e.g. Mk. IXe) had a cannon in each outboard tube, and a single .50 gun in the inboard tube.
Furthermore the E wing aircraft generally had the enlarged rudder as used on the Mk. VIII and pictured below on a Mk. XVIe.
(http://www.raf303.org/308/photos/spitxvizfr.jpg)
Spitfire LF Mk. XVIe Note enlarged rudder and cannon in outboard tubes.
Problem:
The AH Mk. IX has a Merlin 61 and the short rudder. This means it is an F. Mk. IXc. But a C wing should not have a 0.50 cal option. Therefore the 0.50 cal option should be deleted in the game.
The E wing was used only on LF Mk. IX (Merlin 66), HF Mk. IX (Merlin 70), and Mk. XVI (Merlin 266). If HTC want to put 0.50 cal on a Merlin Spit, they need to model one of those.
Disclaimer:
The Mk. IX/XVI was probably the most varied Spitfire mark. There are so many combinations of armament and engine type and airframe details that almost any combination seems possible. I don't think it would be any great chore to field-modify a C wing Spit to carry a 0.50 cal in the vacant gun tubes. But I've never seen any report of this occuring.
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I agree
clarify the labeling on the spit IX to read that it is the F variant, remove 50 cal from the spitIX F....
and add the Spit LF IX with the option for either 50 cal or 30cal
this would be a much more representative wouldnt it?
after all there were 3000 Lf ix spits
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The rockets should also be removed as a loadout option and the droptank should be changed from a German 300 litre tank to the apropriate British tank.
I agree that it should be listed a s a Spitfire F.Mk IXc, not simply as a Spitfire Mk IX. Doing so implies that there is a generic Spitfire Mk IX when in fact there was not.
It would be like labeling the Bf109 as a Bf109G
The Luftwaffe fans would be up in arms about that.
The F, LF, HF, a, b, c and e type designations that the British used are just as vital and inportant as are the German designations such as the 6 in G-6.
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So the one you guys really really want is Spitfire LHFLFX Mk.IXabcdefgq with clipped wings and Merlin 64.5 engine but not under any circumstances the 63.45, right? ;)
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I want 'em all. :)
And if we can't get 'em all then let's at least get 'em correct. :)
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I made up some charts for the spit IX's climb and speed. Here is the link http://rwy0.tripod.com/ahfilms/spitix.html (http://rwy0.tripod.com/ahfilms/spitix.html) .
You can also reach this page from my home page. http://home.midsouth.rr.com/rwysairwar/ (http://home.midsouth.rr.com/rwysairwar/)
RWY
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just gimme a 12X .303 hurricane. The "Tracermaker" ;)
I agree with Cit. Split the versions if they are not representative.
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What we need is
Spitire TB891
LF Mk XVI
Call numbers DN A
Tall tail black nose no fueselage band
Bubble canopy
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Mk.XVI is the most akward looking spitfire of them all, the bubble canopy just doesnt go with the smaller Mk. IX and/or VIII tail.
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what ever.
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It is true Pongo.
Just compare how a Mk. XVI looks around the rear fuselage, tail and canopy to a Mk.XIVE or a Mk.XVIII. There is really no comparison. The XVI especially if fitted with the Mk.VIII style pointy rudder simply looks awful, like some sort of dork, it just doesnt look very "right".
Anyway Merlin spits are really ugly, they just cant help but be that way. Griffon spits, on the other hand, look very nice with the Mk.XVIII and Mk.22 being the nicest.
So it seems appropriate to say that the Spitfire Mk.XVI is one of the ugliest planes ever made, almost on par with the Fairey Barracuda and Gannet. :)
Well, OK, maybe not that far, but its really awfully akward.
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Just for Grunherz
(http://www.aviation.nmstc.ca/Eng/Collection/image/sd111a.jpg)
(http://home.clara.net/dak2/spits/s94-248.jpg)
(http://home.clara.net/dak2/spits/s94-382.jpg)
I suppose when you're absolutely terrified of something you always think it's ugly ;)
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Originally posted by Tac:
just gimme a 12X .303 hurricane. The "Tracermaker" ;)
I agree with Cit. Split the versions if they are not representative.
The Huricane Mk. IIB, which I have a 1/72 scale model of sitting on my desk before me, did indeed have 12 .303s, but the reason they created the Mk. IIC is because they were STILL inadequate. The original 8 guns are by the wheel wells, but the additional 2 guns per were were put way way out on the wings, past the landing lights. One problem was that the firepower just wasn't concentrated in the same spot. It didn't have the punch of the high power guns. It probably was weak against Luftwaffe bombers, also, because for a while that was the main RAF concern.
What I'd be interested in seeing is the Hurricane Mk. IID. It was reported to have 30mm cannon and in some cases 40mm, for exclusive use in ground attack as the Hurc became more obsolete during the war. The Mk. IIDs served in the mediterrainian theater, if I recall.
One ought to mention, the Mk. IIB has bomb racks. It can hold 2 bombs, I forget which poundage. But to hold these, you lose two guns. That's right. The hardpoints are directly below a gun on each wing. Probably blocks the shell ejector chute, or something.
More information about the model can be found at http://lancer.raptor.nu/model (http://lancer.raptor.nu/model)
*ed: fixed typo*
[ 06-30-2001: Message edited by: Freelancer ]
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Remember not all the XVI's had the bubble canopy. The one in my first post for example.
I do like the French one pictured above though!
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You see it looks awfuly akward, compare that ugly ugly thing with a late bubble Mk.XIVe or a MK.XVIII- those are beutiful planes.
BTW Funked I know not all XVI are bubble, but thats what I was reffering to. The non bubble XVIs are only just as ugly as the IX.
Oh yea I really do think Spits are really ugly in most forms. Besically I see them getting better looking as they go through progressions. The I and II are very ugly and dull, the V is just too damn bubly and characterless plus the least competitive spit of all vs contemporary fighters, the IXs get a bit better as they get some sharper lines in the nose and spinner, but still suiffer from lack of real looks and interest. The Griffon spits with their motor bulges and wider tails really begin to look good. My favorite is the Mk.XVIII and the Mk.22, also to me the 22 is better over the 24 because the 22 has the long gun tubes and looks meaner. Anyway I think most Merlin spits are ugly and characterless and I think you all know that deep down inside. :)
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I'm very sensitive and you have wounded my inner dweebfire!!! :)
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Originally posted by Freelancer:
What I'd be interested in seeing is the Hurricane Mk. IID. It was reported to have 30mm cannon and in some cases 40mm, for exclusive use in ground attack as the Hurc became more obsolete during the war. The Mk. IIDs served in the mediterrainian theater, if I recall.
Two 40mm Vickers Class S guns with fifteen-round drum magazines. They served in North Africa, SE Asia and even Russia (where the confused Russians tried to use them for air combat - not very successfully!).
There's an article and pictures about the Vickers, including the experimental Littlejohn squeezebore version, on my website
Tony Williams
Author: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/ (http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/)
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Remember not all the XVI's had the bubble canopy. The one in my first post for example.
I do like the French one pictured above though!
what french plane ??
they all have brit marking no ?
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I think this one has the markings of one of the French RAF squadrons.
(http://home.clara.net/dak2/spits/s94-248.jpg)
I could be wrong. :)
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Stop posting such ugly picures!!! There might be children reading these pages, do you want to make them blind???? :) :)
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Straffo I was wrong. I have another picture of that plane where it looks like it has a badge that I've seen on 341 Sqn planes. But it's actually the 41 Sqn badge which is fairly similar.
[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Straffo I was wrong. I have another picture of that plane where it looks like it has a badge that I've seen on 341 Sqn planes. But it's actually the 41 Sqn badge which is fairly similar.
[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
Yep :)
The 341 was one on my virtual squad :)
Escadrille de chasse n°1 (disbanded the 01/09/41) (Africa)
03/41-08/41 Hawker Hurricane
Groupe de Chasse n°1 "Alsace" (Africa)
09/41-01/42 Morane-Salunier 406
09/41-01/42 Dewoitine 520
09/41-01/42 Curtiss H-75
01/42-10/42 Hawker Hurricane
341 Squadron (Europe)
29/01/43-18/03/43 Spitfire mkV
20/03/43-10/43 Spitfire mkIX
10/43-02/44 Spitfire mkV
02/44-03/45 Spitfire mkIX
here nothing is sure :)
29/06/44- Spitfire mkXIV (?)
03/45- Spitfire mkXVI
Markings
Group : (http://sqdr341.free.fr/pilotes/images/boutons/groupe.GIF)
Flight A : (http://sqdr341.free.fr/pilotes/images/boutons/flighta.GIF)
Flight B : (http://sqdr341.free.fr/pilotes/images/boutons/flightb.GIF)
the crest : (http://sqdr341.free.fr/images/accueil/fafl.jpg)
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Yep both 41 and 341 have a vertical bar with two crosses on their badge.
(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~m-waltz/41sqncrst.gif)
[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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The cross come from the Anjou cross my original region if ever you come to France be sure to visit Angers and around It's simply the best place to live ... lot of good foof & wine and the climat is GREAT :)
http://www.ville-angers.fr/ (http://www.ville-angers.fr/)
in bonus you can visit the king of Poland house,the castle of the king René
(http://www.ville-angers.fr/v1/images/monch2.jpg)
The cross was used as a "symbol" by the bon roi Réné (king of Anjou and a lot of others places from italia to Jerusalem ... and Praha (Prague))
(http://www.multimania.com/abauge/images/vcroix.gif)
(http://members.delphi.com/peiffer/ffl.gif)
Have a look to (I know you can read french :)) http://www.multimania.com/abauge/lacroix2.htm (http://www.multimania.com/abauge/lacroix2.htm)
(http://armorial.free.fr/science/croix_ecu/loraine.gif)
<edit>transformed this post in advertissement for Angers :D
[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
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Thanks for the info!
Here is what RAF has to say about the cross on the 41 Sqn badge:
The badge originated from the Squadron's association with St Omer, France during World War I, the cross being part of the town's arms.
I wonder if it is the same cross then?
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It's perhaps related to the order of the Templier ...
I will search a bit tomorrow ...
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The Spit XVI with the silver and red markings and the 41 Squadron crest is based on an actual paint scheme that was carried on a postwar 41 Squadron Spitfire 21. I corresponded with and met a number of former 41 squadron Spit drivers and they are quite proud of that Cross of Lorraine. For the Spit fanatics if any of you have Spitfire at War:2 by Alfred Price, you'll even see the 41 Squadron crest on a 79 Squadron RAAF Spit VIII as it is pictured in the book(page 83) and is the mount of a former 41 Squadron Spit XII driver who was killed in the last days of the Pacific war.
As for the Spit, if you really want to be representative you'd probably want the LFIXE since it was the most produced and was in combat from roughly 44 on if not a bit sooner. The XVI is essentially the exact same as the LFIXE. Both were used in the ground attack role in particular post D-Day.
And of course there were the low level attacks in Holland against V2 sites as well as the famous run by 6 602 Squadron LFXVIEs against the V2 research facilities in the Hague.
Of course for the scenario fans, the LFIXE makes sense too since the Russians received 1186 LFIXEs in 44-45. Not that the Luftwaffe junkies would want to see all those Spits in a Russian based scenario :)
Dan
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Shane Lechler
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Bringing the Hurricane into this thread again, I read a book by a Hurry pilot who served in Burma. When supplied with Hurry2B's they were horrified with this 12 gun fiddle and had 4 of them removed to restore the Hurricanes maneuverability. Guess you could call that a Hurricane 2A then. Would like to try that one, would be a bit faster then the Hurricane 1...