Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Citabria on December 18, 2000, 01:17:00 AM
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the p38L k/d vs fighters only is about 3 kills for every 5 losses ( .59)
622 kills. 1051 deaths not including bombers or vehicles.
fighters the p38L dweeb is "good" at killing (best to worst k/d)
the P-38L has X wins over, X losses to (P-38L K/D)
P-47-D25. 09 wins, 07 losses 1.28
F4U-1D. 27 wins, 23 losses 1.17
A6M5b. 15 wins, 14 losses 0.9
La-5FN. 22 wins, 27 losses 0.81
P-47-D30. 24 wins, 32 losses 0.75
C.202. 2 wins, 3 losses 0.66
Spit V. 22 wins, 34 losses 0.64
Typhoon IB. 33 wins, 54 losses 0.61
fw190A-5. 25 wins, 43 losses 0.58
Bf 109G-6. 04 wins, 07 losses 0.57
Bf 109G-10. 38 wins, 66 losses 0.57
P-51D. 63 wins, 120 losses 0.52
N1K2. 68 wins, 133 losses 0.51
F4U-1C. 103 wins, 208 losses 0.49
Yak-9U. 29 wins, 60 losses 0.48
Fw 190A-8. 18 wins, 45 losses 0.40
Spit 9. 50 wins, 131 losses 0.38
what does the data point to?
poor P-38L dweebs are getting their bellybutton handed to them on a plate by virtually every other fighter in Aces High even more in 1.04 than in 1.03.
the P-38L in 1.03 was actually pretty good. it stalled well. turned better than the german aircraft and all other american aircraft at high speed and just as good or better at low speed with flaps. it could go vertical at low speed and many of the single engined enemies would torque out if they followed.
in 1.04 (with equal pilots) the p-38L is out turned at high speed and low speed even when the p38L has flaps down by all other aircraft except the P-47 at low speed. it snap rolls like a 190 now as well giving it even worse low speed characteristics.
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-18-2000).]
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what did you expect citabria? just in the short week I poked around here it seems to be the general concensus that the 38 stinks and should stink, never mind what any book says it can do, it has been modeled below that and it is going to stay that way. I do not know if it was because of guys that came over from warbirds and hated the plane wanting revenge on it so they modeled it terrible or what, but do not expect the 38 to meet its performance that it had with this crowd. Do expect to see uber F4U-1s thru -4s.
no matter what information you find on 38s somebody will come up with their latest mathmatical calculations to prove it wasnt so. if they cannot get the stall of the plane right why would anything else be correct? doesnt it seem odd that all those who posted how the 38 should spin out so easy are all infavor of corsairs being ubber?
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citabria if 38 sucks so much how the the hell did you shoot that day, how how how? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
hehe why u like it so much, did u have relative fly it in the war?
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Awww somebody bent Bolillo's wookie.
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Not counting bombers and vehicles Citabria has 32 kills and been killed 0 times in the P-38L (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (54-1 if they are included)
Seriously, the 38 is actually one of the planes I am least worried when encountring in the arena. Like the stats shows it is a plane that takes a more than average pilot to make competitive.
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(http://www.raf303.org/funked/starwars.jpg) (http://www.raf303.org/funked/wookie.wav) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Gotta say that I have flown a couple of P38 sorties since I came back to AH.
Citabria, you seem to insist that the P38 is outturned...blah,blah, blah. So...what?.
I dont pretend to say that it is correctly modelled or not (Zigrat ha an excel program or something like that, that seems to calculate quite acurately the FM of the aircrafts, why dont you test the P38 there^?). I say that if it is so ravaged on the M.A. is because people keep on turnfighting it.
When I flew it, I did it like a Me109G. Vertical fighting, a lot of BnZ, and with care not to compress. Refusing to turn at all, unless my E was way over my enemies'
Know what? I got a positive K/D. Positive. were only 4 or 5 sorties, but I was killed only once.
People gets ravaged in P38 because they think it should turn well. I'm not so sure and so I dont turn. And that plane in the vertical is simply a monster, has a wonderful frontal view (if you are used to 190s and 109s, that is), very good weapons, reasonable acceleration and good climb.
I agree that the stall model is porked. As everything that means torque effects in 1.04, it sucks bigtime. But the plane itself is wonderful. Maybe needs a bit better acceleration, and maybe it should turn more (I dont know, really, if you say it, maybe it should be that way). But if it is nothing less than raped in the MA is because it is completely mishandled and used like it shouldnt. It is mostly used by newbies and that is clear when you look the K/D.
When I see a P38 in the MA, I take it with care. Its a VERY capable weapon and can give a Fw190A5 a run for its money, if used properly.
And hwne I am in it...In no way I'm going to stall fight flying that enormous monster, no matter what they say. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Have to agree with you just a bit Citabria.
The P38 seems to have gone flat in this version.
After reading from different references, including ones with excerpts from German pilots after the war, the consensus was that the P38 turned remarkably well for it's size, and could not and should not be overlooked or counted out in a turning contest. In fact, I read one piece that said that the LW pilots were told NOT to turn with the P38, as it would be on their 6 before they completed one turn.......
It was not on par with the Spit or Zeke, and sure as hell not the Niki or Hog (especially in AH), but yes, the thing was capable of winning a turn fight.
Just hang in there, Cit.........HTC will et it right one of these days. 'Til then, I will soldier on in my Jug, towing my usual banner that says "Shoot me! Maim me! PLEASE!!" (ya know, I ain't found anyone yet that don't accommodate me and my banner)
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I agree with RAM.
Most people fly the P-38 entirely wrong.
Yes it was considered to turn very well.... for an AMERICAN aircraft. Its all relative.
To be successful, the P-38 should be flown as an E fighter, and not as a "Turn & Burn" fighter.
Plus to be at its best, it needs to be flown up high, to take advantage of its turbosuperchargers.
But guess what? Most people fly in down low in the arena, where its at its worst.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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bolillo_loco,
The very same people who made WB's P-38 have made the AH's P-38. Which is quite interesting if they then held that representation as accurate.
Rest of this message is just mindless rambling. If you put a WB P-38 pilot to fly AH P-38 he will simply get killed each and every sortie, unless he changes his way of flying to suite the AH P-38. Personally I thought the WB P-38 was just silly compared to WB's other planes. I guess it got more reasonable towards the end, and suppose same could happen with AH P-38 if it is found to be off by very much.
Anyone remember the change from J-LO-25 to an L model in WB? That thread on news was almost as fun as 'P-51 is 7mph too slow'.
// fats
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It stalls wrong (1.03 p38 stall model was good)
it does not turn at all even at high speed.
all 109's do circles around the p38 in a turn fight just like they did in 1.02
basically the p-38 has reverted into its second release form from around tour 1-2 where: it stalled & spun like a 190, turned terribly at all speeds. had mediocre vertical performance at altitudes below 20k.
it needs to be tweaked.
the P-38L is a 1944 fighter and it is getting trashed by 1942-1943 aircraft with considerable ease.
the P-38L was a nightmare for the LW. they could not out dive, out roll, out turn, out climb or get away from it.
the loss of aileron control after mach tuck is also too severe.
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Heheheh. I remember Mili's WB P-38 flip turns. <G> Get headed up at 60 degrees or more and below 50 MPH you could yank the stick back and instantly flip it 180. Hehehe, talk about crap yourself.. just as you think you've got him dead... flip... WHAM. In WB the 38's were UFO's at low speed and could do freaky toejam.
Pigs in 38's were a deady flock of swine. I'd have to say Mili, Worr, Squid, and Vila were the 4 scariest guys in the WB 38... even after we lost the J25-LO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Oink!
I think the low-speed handling was just as strange in WB as it is in AH, just in the other direction. Whenever you get to the extreme edges of the flight envelope it is going to do weird things to the flight model, so this is to be expected. Overall I find AH to be better, even in the low-speed stuff, but the multi-engines seem to be off some. I like the low speed and spin model better overall though. The 38 may be a bit off in the low-speed area, but I think the model overall is much higher fidelity than the WB one.
Just out of curiosity, has anybody done any turn-rate tests in the 38 to see how it looks?
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Originally posted by Citabria:
the P-38L is a 1944 fighter and it is getting trashed by 1942-1943 aircraft with considerable ease
the P-38L was a nightmare for the LW. they could not out dive, out roll, out turn, out climb or get away from it.
Ok, I'll bite.
If the P38 is beaten by 1943 aircraft in AH is because it plays their game. in no way a P38 will outperform ,or even outmaneouver, a C205, a Spit IX or even a Fw190A5 (under 10K) if it insists in losing its E in trying to turnfight with them (hehe countless times I have beaten turning P38s in Fw190A8 because they kept on turnfighting while I was conserving E).
About that affimation ,"the P38 was a nightmare for the LW"...lets see:
-"they could not out dive"------->sure. The P38 could dive so fast it could not get levelled again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-"out roll"---------->Citabria...er...lol. The early P38s could not roll with a Superfortress (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). And after the hydraulic ailerons were introduced, the P38 only outrolled Fw190s at extreme speeds, because at low speeds the Lightning still rolled like a superfortress (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
-"out turn"-------->probably yes. Never was a problem, you know, as German fighter doctrine never involved turnfights but pure BnZ tactics.
-"out climb"------->er...you know the Me109G was a german plane, right?...come on.
-"or get away from it"------->was simple. The german puts the nose down, and starts a fast dive. The P38 has two options:
1-say bye to the kraut plane
2-end like a red spot on the landscape surrouded by his disintegrated P38's debris.
And dont forget that most early P38s used in europe used to return to Britain with one engine seized
The LW pilots, when asked, said they feared the P38 a lot, all except Adolf Galland, who said that it was little better than a Me110.
Galland knew his job, but I am sure the P38 was much better than a Me110 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Anyway this shows that the P38 wasn't that terrifying.
The reason of that awesome reputation between the German pilots was the massive difference from the "classic" american ETO planes, the P51 and the P47. The 51 and 47 were heavy, low powerloaded planes with poor turning capability and acceleration.
The P38 was a better turner (Still not a turnfighter IMO), much better accelerator and climber than the other two. So the tactics the LW pilots were used to employ against the P51 and P47 simply didnt work with the P38. But the plane itself wasnt, IMO, as good as a P51.
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the P-38L was a nightmare for the LW. they could not out dive, out roll, out turn, out climb or get away from it.
Yea thats why it was hardly ever used for A2A in the ETO after late 43...
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Nath is spot on here, I've read several accounts of LW pilots grinning from ear to ear when they saw a P38 in battle, first, they could ID it easily, second, they had an easy kill due to its poor performance. Please don't force me to route thru all my books, take it for my word, more than 1 pilot commented on the P38 being a non-threat in the ETO.
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The P38 was a good aircraft during the early stages of the daylight bombing offensive when there were no other planes to escort the bombers to Germany, however, once the P51 arrived along with more drop tank capability for the P47, the P38s engine freezing at high altitudes and some other flaws caused it to be outclassed by the other aircraft the US could operate. The P38 was not suited for ETO air to air combat, except of course, air to ground work.
Last I checked the 109 compressed at around the same speed that the P38 does, and the 190 is a great diver and has excellent controlability at high kinetic. You must keep in mind that the only P38s the LW faced in large numbers was the F, which was hardly a match for the 109G or Antons, not to mention the D9.
Twin engined day fighters were not needed past 1941, the obsolensence of the Me 110 after the BoB were apparent and the obsolensence of the P38 was realized in late 43 when there were other options for the USAAF.
If the P38 was such a great aircraft, as you stated Citabria--then it would have stayed in service, I beleive that the P38 FM is correct. After all, the second highest-scoring P38 ace, Thomas McGuire was killed from spinning his 38. It was never renowned as a great turner.
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Any aircraft can operate how you think it should--it just depends on the pilot.
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Awww, c'mon guys, where's all the "show me film", or "give me data" posts? If this involved a LW plane or hispanos, there would have been at least 5 of 'em already. Not to mention at least 10 pairs of burnt pom-poms. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
(http://www.luftjagerkorps.com/images/logo.gif)
[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-18-2000).]
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To be fair, is true that some high-scoring LW aces said that the most dangerous american plane was the P-38. Steinhoff said that he didnt understand how did Galland compare the Me110 with the P38.
Said that, is true that the P38 was not a good fighter on the ETO. German iron was simply too good compared with Japanese planes. It's not the same to fight an air force of Fw190s and Me109s than to fight an air force of Ki43s, Ki44s and Zekes with the ocassional Ki84 or N1K2, thing that the P38 did until the end of the war on the PTO.
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Hey Citabria
I used to fly the P38 quite a bit in previous tours but since 1.04 I find it has got worse whilst all the other aircraft have got better. Call me no expert but I struggle in that plane now... sniff.
BTW... all the P38 kills against various aircraft, now you didn't have to display all of your kills! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Regards
Nexx
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galland was outmaneuvered by a p38 and nearly killed by them twice.
the AH Luftwobbles are obviously scared to death of this plane getting better...
look at them whine about it and how it should be porked and easy to kill.
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If the P38 was such a great aircraft, as you stated Citabria--then it would have stayed in service, I beleive that the P38 FM is correct. After all, the second highest-scoring P38 ace, Thomas McGuire was killed from spinning his 38. It was never renowned as a great turner.
nath he was turning with a ki43 and actually staying on its tail with drop tanks ON AND WITH FULL INTERNAL FUEL AND AMMO!
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Yea I'm scared of you citabria... laff.
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Poor opportunist, too greedy for kill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Nath you would die a thousand deaths if you tried to fight with the lightning. (try flying a tour in it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) )
and I didn't say you were scared of me.
I said you are scared that if this plane gets better you wont have a free meal when you find one.
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How could Galland be nearly killed by P38s twice and outmaneuvered once?
Just for your information, Galland was promoted to Genral der Jagdfleiger in November 1941 (no P38s in ETO at this time) after Udet killed himself. Galland did not fly operational sorties against the allies until early 1945. During this time in April when he was flying with Jagdverband 44 he was wounded in his right leg by P51s. He managed to land his Me 262 and evade strafing P51s while wounded. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) That was the end of his WW2 career.
Dunno where you got the outmaneuver thing, but that could have rarely happened when he was flying the 262, not many P38s were over Germany at this time. Also, 'outmaneuvering' an Me262 in a P38 is no big feat.
As for nearly being killed by P38s twice, that's just unadulterated fiction.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
"It felt as if an angel was pushing..."
-Reponse of Gen. Adolf Galland after flying the fourth prototype Me 262 in May 1943.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]
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The P38 is one of the best opportunist platforms in the game, if I could get 40 kills and 0 deaths in the A8, why couldn't I do it in a P38?
If if flew allied I would fly the P38, but I don't so I won't.
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Cit (and Nath (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)),
Before u guys start a unusual personal war again, i'd like to say this.
I know how it feels when ur favorite plane handles like a brick (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), you know what i fly Cit.
I dunno anaything about th p38 or it's FM, but plz keep this discussion in a technical aspect and stay calm.
no offense Cit, but Nath is right with his Galland-Issue.
My Problem isn't the FM of my favorite plane, IT IS my favorite plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Maik
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Go look up how the P-38's did over Italy, Sicily, and Africa.
Conscripts vs numerically superior LW and they still managed to kill G-6's and 190's without to much trouble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Get HTC to put 4x20mm HS on the P-38L - then watch as it will suddenly retain E, turn, zoom, dive and run better than ever before!
WTF am I talking about?
Look at the F4U-1D stats - if anything, worse than the P-38L. Yet the F4U-1C wipes the floor with everything, according to the stats.
At least the P-38L has a +ve k/d over the mighty A6M5b...
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The LW in the Med. had no numerical superiority after Operation Torch (December 42). P38s began operations in the Med around that time FYI. I remember II/JG 2 getting something like 150 kills and only losing 7 a/c over a four month period (Nov-Feb 43). What I've read is that the P38s in the Med got slaughtered, as did most of the aircraft in that theater until the Allies got their toejam together and stopped flying in unorganized gaggles like a bunch of tards.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Probably the main reason for the demise of the AH P-38 is what has happened to the torque model.
I remember in earlier versions being able to go vertical in a P-38, watching my opponent stall out below me as he fought the torque of his engine.
But is just doesn't happen anymore. Now any aircraft can go pure vertical and hang there all the way to 0 airspeed, with no apparent degradation of control.
Back in 1.03, I recall trying to teach one of my squaddies how to do hammerhead turns in the F4U ..... it was BLOODY HARD! At the peak of the vert climb, that big engine kept rolling me out of the hammerhead.
THAT was one huge advantage for the 'no-torque' P38.
But not any more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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Hi
Nath there was supposedly an encounter by Galland and a P38. I cant remember the story exactly but apparently Galland was flying a D9(september44 earliest??????? why was galland flying a D9??) and he was bounced by a 38 and they went at it for a while after which they disengaded and went home. Apparently Galland met the 38 pilot at a fighter convention after the war, when he overheard the US pilot describing a wild dogfight with a "long nose" 190 which apparently matched Galland's memories of the fight. I donno it sounds pretty good and accurate (still not sure if Galland flew D9s), but I cant be sure anymore since I read this a few years ago. BTW Nath Galland did fly a few times even after he became General der Jagdfliger, although these were unauthorized combat flights.
thanks GRUNHERZ
[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Galland only flew Me262s after he was dismissed of his command position by Göring. He immediatly formed the JV44, wich I know it had a 190D9 complement to protect the jet's take off and landings.
But I quite doubt that he ever flew one D9, less fighting against a P38 in it. He was injured and almost killed by a P47 in his Me262, tho.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
The LW in the Med. had no numerical superiority after Operation Torch (December 42). P38s began operations in the Med around that time FYI. I remember II/JG 2 getting something like 150 kills and only losing 7 a/c over a four month period (Nov-Feb 43). What I've read is that the P38s in the Med got slaughtered, as did most of the aircraft in that theater until the Allies got their toejam together and stopped flying in unorganized gaggles like a bunch of tards.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]
http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_cover.htm (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_cover.htm)
Okay so the description is a lil biased but the actual interview is pretty good.
It's under the full text.
btw I meant numerical advantage over the P-38 in most engagements.
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-18-2000).]
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I dunno man, all the books I've read have stated that the LW was always outnumbered in the Med, even during early '41 7./JG 26 days.
It was often expected by a flight of LW aircraft to encounter a force twice their own number. Usually 8, 14 or 20 Allied aircraft.
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http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_1text.htm (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_1text.htm)
Hurlbut: What an aircraft! It could take rough handling, so it could outmaneuver almost anything. And there were two engines to bring you home.
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Maybe due to penetration bomber raids? Kinda like ETO. Trying to relate this exlusively to the 38 groups and not the theatre as a whole. Dunno if it says it in that article, I have the full newsprint at home, but Hurlbut was flying P-38G's for the most part, against 202's, G6's and 190s (no variant specified) with a 38 group generally 1/3 the size of the enemy (30 to 100 usually)
Trying to figure out if the "yo-yo boys" are JG 26 or 27 though. How many other JG groups had yellow noses in Mid' 43?
Needless to say this particular group was pretty lucky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Citabria:
http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_1text.htm (http://www.thehistorynet.com/AviationHistory/articles/2001/0101_1text.htm)
Hurlbut: What an aircraft! It could take rough handling, so it could outmaneuver almost anything. And there were two engines to bring you home.
You forgot to mention it was "out of it's element" as well:
Hurlbut: Our missions then were primarily long-range, low-level sorties escorting North American B-25s into enemy controlled areas of Italy, Sicily and Sardinia....
...When I first started combat in April 1943, it was really not unusual for our underequipped and understaffed unit to be flying with only 12 to 20 P-38s and be hit by more than 30 to 100 enemy fighters. Our losses were inescapable, but the enemy's were even greater. The 82nd finally became the top P-38 fighter group in the European theater, with more than 500 enemy victories confirmed.
[/b]
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Several different Geschwader had 'yellow noses' but the entire nose wasn't yellow, just the engine access panel below the engine block. Even our G10 in AH has this, and that aircraft is from JG 4. The only Jagdgeschwaders that operated in the Med after January 1942 was JG 27, 54 and 77. Marseille flying under the former.
The all-yellow nose was disbanded after the BoB.
JG 26 did not operate in the MTO post-7 staffel, they left for the eastern front and Greece when JG 27 came in and took over their operations during the Spring/Summer of 1941.
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Nath_____
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
"It felt as if an angel was pushing..."
-Reponse of Gen. Adolf Galland after flying the fourth prototype Me 262 in May 1943.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-18-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nath-BDP:
If the P38 was such a great aircraft, as you stated Citabria--then it would have stayed in service, I beleive that the P38 FM is correct. After all, the second highest-scoring P38 ace, Thomas McGuire was killed from spinning his 38. It was never renowned as a great turner.
Sometimes performance has little to do with whether or not a plane stays in service. Note the differences in cost of production from the P-38 to the P-51:
http://aviationpage.com/specs/p-38.html (http://aviationpage.com/specs/p-38.html)
http://aviationpage.com/specs/p-51.html (http://aviationpage.com/specs/p-51.html)
The P-38 cost, on average, $155,000 to the P-51's $50,000. That's three times the cost (not to mention twice the maintenance with two engines) at arguably marginal benefit. It's entirely possible that the P-38 WAS superior to other American aircraft, but was it 300% better? I doubt it. I have no idea if the AH model is accurate or not, but we have to consider explanations other than performance to account for the P-38's discontinuation.
-- Todd/DMF
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unf.... the P51 was better suited for what the USAAF needed it for, a long range escort thus the P38 was phased out of service in the ETO.
Overall, the P51 was a much better warplane than the P38, theres no argument there.
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too much posturin to read much of the crap above but as far as a 38's climb ability is concerned...
I have read that it was able to climb at a steady rate at a higher speed than most other aircraft it came up against or flew beside. tryin to explain... errmm it could hold a zoom at relatively low angles <45 and gain E and extend better than most.
Errm i think i got it..
I used to fly the 38 a fair bit in AW but as high alt both TnB and E fighting. In AW with full flaps nose down NOTHING could turn with it. I am amazed at the differences between aircraft handling in different sims, I mean come on.. there should be some similarities..
AKskurj
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The sky is falling. A whine about an USAF iron (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Some aircraft had the painted yellow nose of the famous "Yo-Yo boys." They were German aces who we called that because of their bobbing up-and-down tactics.
The 38's were operating out of Grumbalia if thats any help.
Any ideas?
Btw, those figures on the P-38 and P-51 seem rather inflated...at the peak of production in the US, the cost to turn out a P-51 was @ 17,000$ (which is slightly lower what surplus 51s were sold for after the war) The same is true for the 38's, considering it cost little more then 100,000$ to turn out a B-17G. This doesn't take into consider the intial tooling cost, etc of the first run, but when all the equipment was in full swing.
Thats not to say the ratio isn't right, those are just actual production costs I've seen.
- Jig
PS A-26's ate P-38's for lunch in AW. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 12-19-2000).]
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Ctibria,
Why don't you try getting some test data on the stall of the P-38 in AH, both 1G and 3G accelerated and compare it to a reliable source of test data, say the P-38 pilots manual (Which can be ordered online).
Have you done these test?? Do you know what the answers are? If you don't know I suggest you find out and then re-post. Until then it is just whining.
Later
F4UDOA
BTW, I have a copy of the manual and there may be an error in the AH FM but I don't fly the 38 so I'm not sure.
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F4DOA your kidding right?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000864.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000864.html)
um... ive tested the #@!#@ P-38L over and over.
P-38L loadout:
100% fuel
200rpg 50cal, 150rds 20mm
no external ordnance
top speeds wep/mil 1.04 AH P-38L vs AH chart
30k 400wep, 385 (chart 405wep, 390)
25k 415wep, 390 (chart 415wep, 400)
20k 395wep, 385 (chart 403wep, 388)
15k 385wep, 370 (chart 387wep, 372)
10k 370wep, 360 (chart 374wep, 360)
05k 355wep, 345 (chart 357wep, 345)
00k 345wep, 330 (chart 345wep, 332)
time to climb, feet per minute, mil power
01k 0:18 3333
02k 0:37 3158
03k 0:56 3158
04k 1:15 3158
05k 1:35 3000 4-6k avg: 3053 chart 3200
06k 1:55 3000
07k 2:14 3158
08k 2:35 2857
09k 2:55 3000
10k 3:16 2857 9-11k avg: 2952 chart 3050
11k 3:36 3000
12k 3:58 2727
13k 4:20 2727
14k 4:42 2727
15k 5:05 2609 14-16k avg: 2648 chart 2850
16k 5:28 2609
17k 5:51 2609
18k 6:15 2500
19k 6:40 2400
20k 7:05 2400 19-21k avg: 2369 chart 2600
21k 7:31 2307
22k 7:58 2222
23k 8:25 2222
24k 8:53 2069
25k 9:22 2069 24-26k avg: 2024 chart 2300
26k 9:53 1935
27k10:25 1875
28k11:01 1667
28k11:40 1538
30k12:23 1395 29-31k avg: 1394 chart 1700
31k13:11 1250
time to climb, feet per minute, WEP
01k 0:17 3529
02k 0:34 3529
03k 0:50 3750
04k 1:07 3529
05k 1:24 3529 4-6k avg: 3529 chart 3700
06k 1:41 3529
07k 1:58 3529
08k 2:15 3529
09k 2:32 3529
10k 2:50 3333 9-11k avg: 3398chart 3500
11k 3:08 3333
12k 3:27 3158
13k 3:46 3158
14k 4:06 3000
15k 4:26 3000 14-16k avg: 3000 chart 3200
16k 4:46 3000
17k 5:07 2857
18k 5:28 2857
19k 5:50 2727
20k 6:13 2609 19-21k avg: 2648 chart 2800
21k 6:36 2609
22k 7:00 2500
23k 7:25 2400
24k 7:51 2308
25k 8:19 2143 24-26k avg: 2150 chart 2350
26k 8:49 2000
27k 9:21 1875
28k 9:55 1765
29k10:33 1579
30k11:15 1428 29-31k avg: 1428 chart 1700
31k12:02 1276
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/p38lspeed.gif)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/charts/p38lclimb.gif)
http://home.worldonline.dk/~winthrop/p38op7.html (http://home.worldonline.dk/~winthrop/p38op7.html)
HT was meaning to look into the P-38 FM was curious if there is any word on it.
I was reading the operating manual for the P-38 particularly the stall/spin section and dive flaps section:
STALLS
a. With power off., the airplane stalls at the following air speeds and gross weights noted.
15,000 lbs 17,000 lbs 19.000 lbs
Flaps and landing gear up 94 mph 100 mph 105 mph
Flaps and landing gear DOWN 69 mph 74 mph 78 mph
b. As stalling speed is approached, the centre section stalls first with noticeable shaking of the airplane, however the ailerons remain effective.
c. In either power ON or power OFF stalls with flaps and landing gear up the airplane rushes straight forward in a well controlled stall. With flaps and landing gear down there appears to be a slight tendency for one wing to drop. There is however no tendency to spin. Under these conditions, the nose drops slightly and as the speed increases, the wing will come up.
d. On airplanes equipped with rocket installation the stall characteristics are the same.
SPINS
a. Spin Characteristics
The spin is fast, but recovery is prompt and easy if the proper technique is used.
b. Recovery
The airplane can be brought out of the spin any time by kicking full rudder against the spin for a minimum of half a turn then easing forward the control column. The procedure is as follows:
1. Close throttles.
2. If flaps are down pull them up.
3. KICK FULL RUDDER AGAINST THE SPIN AS BRISKLY AS POSSIBLE, WAIT AT LEAST HALF A TURN BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO PUSH THE WHEEL FORWARD. Recovery is slower by one turn with flaps down. If the flaps are down or on their way up the rudder should be held against the spin for at least one full turn before pushing the column forward.
4. After half a turn, with rudder full over the control wheel may be eased forward as the rotation stops. Recovery can be accomplished in one-and-a-half turns under any condition except with flaps down when two turns will be required. The airplane will come out of the spin in a vertical dive and recovery from the dive should be made slowly in order to avoid a highspeed stall which may cause a spin in the opposite direction. Any attempt to push the wheel forward before kicking full opposite rudder will immediately increase the speed rotation and the acceleration to which the pilot is subjected. If this is encountered pull the wheel full back and hold full rudder against the spin for a minimum of half a turn. Then push the control column forward.
DIVE RECOVERY FLAPS
The airplane without these flaps becomes very nose heavy and starts to buffet above diagram dive speeds (Dia.2.). The dive recovery flaps which are installed under the wings between the booms and tile ailerons restore the lift to this portion of the wing and thus cause the uncontrollable nose heaviness to occur at a higher speed. The flaps also add some drag to the airplane which in conjunction with the higher allowable dive speed permits safer dives at a much steeper diving angle. The dive recovery flaps should be extended before starting the dive or immediately after the dive is started before a buffeting speed has been reached. If the airplane is buffeting before the dive recovery flaps are extended the buffeting will momentarily increase and then diminish. With these flaps extended, the nose heaviness is definitely reduced but the diving speed should never be allowed to exceed the placard by more than 15 or 20 mph. With the dive recovery flaps extended before entering the dive, angles of dive up to 45 degrees may be safely accomplished. Without dive recovery flaps extended the maximum angle for extending dives is 15 degrees. Diving characteristics are better with power off than power on.
the 1.03 stall model was more in line with the p38 stall but still wasn't great. now with 1.04 our AH p-38 will always torque roll to the right and directly into a spin. the P-38 should have no tendancy to spin in a level stall if both wings are stalled equally. but in AH there is no way to get a full blown stall without spinning.
also dive flaps should induce a 10 degree nose up attitude at low speeds with the excess lift and drag they create but in our AH p38 their is no nose up tendancy and no noticeable drag from the flaps.
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 12-19-2000).]
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It's not just an issue with the Lightning.
All planes in AH will drop one wing in a stall, regardless of configuration, engine(s) on or off, etc...
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The fight was between Galland in a 190-D9 and Lt Col Lowell of the 364th FG, 384th F.S in a P-38. It turned into a viscious turn fight down on the deck over a quarry of some kind.
Coincidently I've been trying to find this story this last week too for my archives. It was online once at the www.fighteraces.com (http://www.fighteraces.com) site but they do nota archive online and it was at least a year or two ago that it was up there.
Galland and Lowel met several years later and when Lowell was reteling the story Galland looked at him and said Lowell had damned near killed him.
Lowell had 12.5 kills in the war. Galland had how many? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Only reason I add that was to show that pilot skill was not determined by kill numbers and also the combat further proves it is the pilot and not so much the plane. Although I'd hate like hell to be in a Buffaloe against a Zero (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
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Originally posted by Westy:
The fight was between Galland in a 190-D9 and Lt Col Lowell of the 364th FG, 384th F.S in a P-38. It turned into a viscious turn fight down on the deck over a quarry of some kind.
Coincidently I've been trying to find this story this last week too for my archives. It was online once at the www.fighteraces.com (http://www.fighteraces.com) site but they do nota archive online and it was at least a year or two ago that it was up there.
Galland and Lowel met several years later and when Lowell was reteling the story Galland looked at him and said Lowell had damned near killed him.
No doubt he was almost killed...Galland TURNFIGHTED a P38 in a D9, on the deck ?
Heh...guess he thought he still was on a 109F (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)...no doubt he was almost killed, the 190s NEVER have turned exactly well ,yah know...
Now seriously, is the first time I heard of Galland riding a 190 in real combat. how many times did he do that?...was he experienced in the cockpit of a 190?...because only a unexperienced pilot would try to do that...
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-20-2000).]
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-20-2000).]
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I doubt that story is true. It is highly rare that Galland flew a D9.
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I had thought it was RALL. But I've had three people tell me it was Galland. And the story is true, regardless of who the pilot was. Whether you beleive it or not really doesn't matter. Although I do wonder a bit if it being true puts some kind of a tarnish on your vision of how uber the Arian pilots just had to have been. Right Nath?
As for it being a 190-D9. Well? The D-9 was better than the USAAF aircraft at the lower alts right? I mean hasn't that been what many folks have been saying here for at least a year?
-Westy
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Go away Westy... if you have a problem with me then say it outright don't insult me with little remarks about me being a pro-nazi.
I'm not sure what your problem with me is but your little pre-pube girlish comments are getting on my last nerve.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-20-2000).]
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Jawohl Herr Nath!!!!
<arm shoots straight out>
<heels click together sharply>
"Sieg Help!"
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-20-2000).]
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I've heard that same story but with about 5 different Allied pilots' names and about 3 different German pilots' names...
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Originally posted by funked:
I've heard that same story but with about 5 different Allied pilots' names and about 3 different German pilots' names...
I guess that kind of thing happened all the time then...
-- Todd/DMF
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Yep, just like that guy who strapped rockets on his car, and the fried rat at KFC, and the alligators in the sewer. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The P-38 was not discontinued as an A2A fighter in Europe because of performance. It was because of A: Maintenance. It was so good in the PTO because of much lower alt fights. It didn't have to freeze. B: Production cost. The P-51 was cheaper. Period.
Performance? The P-38 outturned German planes at ALL altitudes. It was faster than any Me-109's. G10? Maybe it wasn't faster, eh? 109s were for the most part aerodymanically inferior to their American counterparts.
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The P38 you're speaking of is a fantasy plane.
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I'd like to see a 450mph P-38...
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It was faster than any Me-109's. G10?
Sorry Ispar, but when you make a statement like that, it totally invalidates the rest of your arguement.
The G10 is the fastest plane in AH by about 15 mph. Yes faster than the P-51.
Even the fastest production (emphasis on production juzz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) P-38 that was ever made was slow compared to many of the other planes produced, both German and American.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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How fast was the K?
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There wasn't a P-38K
There was a single XP-38K (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I loaned out my best P-38 book to my stepfather or I would get you a speed on that "K" prototype.
None of the rest of my resources have a max speed number for it.
A better question might be "How fast would a P-38 have gone, if they had mounted Rolls Royce Merlin engines on it, similar to what was done with the P-51?" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Now THAT is an extrememly interesting debate.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 12-22-2000).]
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The P38 has by far the highest wingloading and the worst powerloading. What do you expect?
A comment to stall speed: Stall tests were sometimes (often?) done in little zooms, not in a perfectly horizontal flight. That reduces your stallspeed.
Example: Test pilot pulls up in a 25° zoom, the aircraft stalls at 90MPH.
stall speed in a level flight would be 90/cos(25)=99.3Mph
Just a simple example to make you a little bit more careful when you find stall speed numbers.
When i remember myself correctly, in these training films at zenoswarbirdsvideo they pulled up in a little zoom for the stall demonstration...
niklas
[This message has been edited by niklas (edited 12-22-2000).]
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(http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Xp-38k.jpg)
Some P-38 "K" info:
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38K.html)
-Westy
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Vermillion: Apples and Oranges.
The P-51 had the V-1710 with a single stage supercharger, as per the other "low-performance" planes fitted with the same engine, ie: P-39, P-40.
Those single-stage supercharged Allison engines never made much more than 1300HP I think. Eg: P-51A had the V-1710-81: 1200HP@T/O and 1125HP@18k.
OTOH; the initial P-51B/C production had the V-1650-3(Merlin 68) which produced over 1450HP@18k, and about 1300HP@28k. Later B/C production and all D/K had the V-1650-7, producing 1695HP@10k.
The P-38 had the V-1710 fitted with a turbocharger. This engine had more power than the supercharged Allison, and maintained it to a far higher altitude. Eg: The V-1710-111/113 engine in the P-38L produced 1600HP from S/L to 28k.
The performance gain from fitting the P-38 with a Merlin engine would not be as great as it was for the P-51, if there was any significant gain at all.
Now, a mid-mounted Griffon-powered P-51 - THAT could be interesting... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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It's really slow here at work, so I'll take a few moments to comment on the P-38 and P-51, and their comparative performances. We'll start with the ETO, since thats where the controversy over the P-38's performance comes from.
First off, a few notes about strategic bombing. The whole point of the 8th AF's strategic bombing offensive was to destroy the Luftwaffe. Their targets were airplane factories, and other facilities that helped the production of aircraft(particularly fighters). At the beginning of 1944, when the allies began looking to invade the continent, it was obvious that bombing the German aircraft industry out of existance to destroy the Luftwffe wasn't going to work. The 8th's bombers had been mauled a number of times, and the Luftwaffe in the west seemed as strong as ever. At this point, a change in leadership of the 8th lead to a new strategy, made possible by longer ranged escort fighters. The bombers would continue to fly to targets that the Luftwaffe would always defend(like the aircraft factories), but the fighters(which could now accompany the bombers to their targets) would now concentrate on shooting down fighters instead of protecting the bombers. The idea was to destroy the luftwaffe, so that they couldn't contest allied air superiority when the invasion came.
From the start, the Luftwaffe heavily contested every 8th AF raid into german air space. This was basically the case up until the Berlin raid. The day after the first Berlin raid (March 6 1944 i think) the 8th AF went back to Berlin and were virtually unopposed. At this point, air superiority over Germany fell into allied hands, and they kept it for the rest of the war. Now the Luftwaffe didn't just give up as the result of that one raid, but as the result of steady preassure that had been mounting since december of 1943, climaxing in "Big Week" and then the Berlin raid in early March. Thus we can identify this period (basically February through early March 1944) as the critical turning point in the daytime air battle over Germany. In the past, the 8th AF couldn't run more the a few deep penetrations in quick succesion before losses caused them to stand down, to allow the airmen to rest and refit. Now the situation was reversed. Loss of planes wasn't the problem, loss of pilots was. The planes could be pumped out at a faster rate, but there was no easy way to repair the huge holes in the luftwaffe's ranks, now that the allied fighters were flying over the entirety of Germany. In particular losses to the 110s and Ju88s that had been devastatingly effectivly in the bomber destroyer role kept the Luftwaffe from inflicting the type of devastating losses that they had on the 8th AF bombers in 1943.
Now if we look at the composition of the 8thAF fighter command at the beggining of Feb 1944, they had about 9 P-47 groups, 2 P-38 groups, and 2 P-51 groups. The two P-38 groups(55th and 20th) had both been active since the beginning of 1944, and neither had had much success so far. Of the P-51 groups, the 354th (officially 9th AF, but operating under 8th AF control) had been operating with some sucess since Dec 43, and the 357th had started up just at the beginning of Feb 44. Both the P-38s and the P-51s were having teething trouble. The P-38s suffered a lot of engine failures, and had compression and roll rate problems, along with defrosters, heating etc. The P-51s were suffering a lot of gun jams(some field mods were in place on some aircraft to fix this, but it continued to be a problem until the P-51D), and also some defrosting and spark plug problems.
Now over the course of "Big Week" the P-51 groups, one of them brand new, making up about 15% of the allied fighter total, accounted from about 27% of the allied fighter claims. And this is the 4 gun P-51B, with gun jamming issues, and poor rear visiblity, piloted in many cases by pilots with only a handful of missions in theater. Even before the beginning of "Big Week" it was obvious to the 8th AF fighter planners that they had found the fighter that they needed to win the day war over Germany. To argue that the P-38s were fazed out because of mechanical problems alone is unrealistic, considering that they didn't begin converting to the P-51 until late summer and fall of 1944, long after the P-38 groups had converted to the later J models which solved many of the problems. Also the 8th AF activated two additional P-38 fighter groups after this point, so obviously the mechanical problems with the P-38 weren't such that it wasn't worthwhile to operate them.
What's especially interesting is this: By the end of the war in Europe the 9th AF had converted all their P-38 groups to P-47s and P-51s. Now the 9th AF was doing primarily low level air superiority and tactical bombing, and so their P-38s wouldn't encounter compressibility, wouldn't have problems with defrosting or cold temperatures. And their P-38 groups also got the later J and L models.
We can see a couple important points here: First of all, the 8th AF was primarily interested in killing the Luftwaffe, and they found the P-51 was the best tool for this job. Obviously the P-38 wasn't the total failure that some might make it out to be in the ETO ... both the 8th and the 9th far preferred the idea of having some P-38s to having no fighters. Both the 8th and the 9th AF got to use the later J and L models, and they still converted all of them to P-51Ds when they had the oppurtunity. This leads me to say that all of the US fighters were dangerous, credible foes for the Luftwaffe, just some were more effective then others.
Now in the pacific, we have a very different situation. First off the primary fighters types for the IJN/IJAAF (the A6M, Ki43, and Ki61) are all much slower then nearly every allied fighter in action. Every wartime allied fighter(fighters that were brought into service after the beginning of the war, ie not F2A, F4F, P39, P40) was VERY succesful in this theater, due to their massive advantages in performance and durability.
Interestingly, the P-51 was the least sucessful of the US late war fighters in this area for a couple reasons. First it had very limited exposure to combat, due to the huge demand for P-51s in Europe. Some were used to good effect in the CBI, and they didn't get into action in the Pacific really until the fall of Iwo Jima. At that point they were used to fly escort missions for B-29s against the Japanese home islands. However it was soon discovered that the high altitude bombing wasn't producing the kind of damage that was hoped for. In this case, the AF commanders were looking to wipe out Japanese industry and convince japan to surrender, and weren't interested in the IJN/IJAAF(both of which had been smashed to almost ineffectiveness over the course of the war). It was found that low altitude bombing at night was more effective, and so the P-51s were left to conduct fighter sweeps and airfield attacks against the home islands. Due to the very fast jet streams, long overwater approach, and unpredictable weather, a B-29 still had to accompany the Mustang formations for navagation. In the end, losses to weather, exhaustion etc. were far greater then the kills that the P-51s could inflict, as there was hardly any enemy left to inflict them on.
Also intersting, is that once again P-38's were almost completely phased out by wars end in this theater as well.
Anyway, I would judge the P-51 to be the better overall fighter(air to air) for a couple reasons. First, its faster at almost all altitudes. Second it was regarded as a very good handling aircarft especially at high speeds. There were exceptions to this, primarily low speed turning situations with a full fueselage tank, but the saying goes "speed is life", and as the RAF noted in 1941 when the Fw190 came out "turning doesn't win air battles". Thirdly at the Navy Joint Fighter conference in october of 1944 the pilots present ranked the planes in a number of catagories two being "Best overall fighter above 25k" and "Best below 25k", and the P-51 was one of the top planes in both of these catagories(quite an accomplishment saying that the vast majority of the votes came from Navy/Marine pilots and contractors from Vought and Grumman). Also the P-51D had much better visibility then the P-38 too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh well, enough for today.
Sable
352nd FG
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Thanks for writing a novel about what I already said, Sable. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Their targets were airplane factories, and other facilities that helped the production of aircraft(particularly fighters).
Do you really believe this after Hamburg, Berlin, .... ???
From the beginning the bombraids had almost ever civilian targets - the cities.
I wish they ´d have concentrated on industrial targets from the beginning, maybe war would have been over 2 years earlier.
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Interesting test info Cit. Looks like the speeds are right on the money, but the climb may be a little off? Kudo's for posting some good info.
Sable, great post and a good read.
Nath, you could learn something from Sable. Although you may have the information, you certainly could learn how to present it more pleasantly. It must be tough on you to drag that huge attitude around with you everywhere.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"
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Good post Sable. Really good post. I'd only like to add in that the P-38 cost twice what a P-51 or 47 did and the 38 took much more maintenance overall and was also more complicated to operate. It was an fine interceptor, as it's intended purpose but I'm not too sure it was a good fighter or escort myself.
Nicklas, the war could have been over along time before the bombings began (whether they - Allies -intentionally targeted civilians or both. As where there is industry there are civilians and where there are civilians there is industry. I think most sympathy went out the window when the LW started all of that by going down that path beginning the straffing and bombing of civilian refugees on the Polish roads), if the war had never been started in the first place.
-Westy
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you must have missed the wink...