Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Hristo on May 09, 2000, 02:30:00 PM
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This thing got me thinking a long time ago.
How come that even the rawest newbie, who can't hit anything when flying a fighter, shoots your wing from B 26 at 1500 yards in a high deflection pass you make on a buff ?
Not to mention, it is like he is shooting 20mm, while 190A-8 fires duds.
From now on I stay away from buffs, it is just biggest game gaming in AH.
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I have not had this experience. While working as a trainer in the arena, I often have newbies who want to gun a buff and have something to shoot at... trainer=target drone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
While it seems they hit me easier than they could in a fighter, unless I get slow on their six I can carve them up like a roast if I want to. (Using only 2x.50 in my F4U-1D I might add.) With practice though, they get to be good shots and I must be careful. Against a seasoned buff gunner I need the C Hog and a bunch of altitude to play with to have a good chance of survival. Personally I can't hit the broad side of a barn while gunning a buff, and that's what tells me it's the gunner's skill and not the modelling that gets me killed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 05-09-2000).]
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I have spent a lot of time shooting with the turret on the M16 as well as the B-26 and B-17 turrets. The bomber turrets appear to have a higher probability of hitting, and they seem to do more damage for a given number of hits.
I have done no controlled testing, this is a subjective impression only.
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per Pyro the buff guns only have a boost to thier max effective range, which is to account for netlag. They dinnae get a boost to thier max range, power, nor hit probability.
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How was the max effective range boost achieved Cave? Is there a cut-off point?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-09-2000).]
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I'm assuming it's simply having the rounds keep thier kenetic energy longer (out to max range) than the the .50s that are on the fighters, but it would take Pryo's input to give you a concrete answer.
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Cave, there are two ways to kinetic increase the energy of a projectile. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
1. Increase velocity.
2. Increase mass.
Both of these are going to make it more energetic at ALL ranges!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-09-2000).]
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If I remember well PYRO said that buff gunners have some kind of helps in terms of range and lethality. This is due to their weakness in MA.
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Originally posted by funked:
Cave, there are two ways to kinetic increase the energy of a projectile. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
1. Increase velocity.
2. Increase mass.
Both of these are going to make it more energetic at ALL ranges!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-09-2000).]
Funked, didn't you watch the move "The Matrix"? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This is assuming that this is the "Real" physical world and that we understand everything about it. My answer is negative to both. It isn't and we don't.
Shift your preception. You can also adjust the starting piont of the projectile.
It would be quite easy to have the simulated projectile start d200 distant from the gun and have the FE fool the user into believing that it started right at the gun barrel. You don't mess with velocity or mass, but you can adjust how the effectiveness appears to the user.
Is this how HTC does it? I don't know, but it could be...
Salute (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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oooooooo.... we just moved to the existential level. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by gatt:
If I remember well PYRO said that buff gunners have some kind of helps in terms of range and lethality. This is due to their weakness in MA.
I remember reading this also Gatt.
Two reasons this needs to occur.
- Due to something about the how the internet works in conjuction with the game. An A/C flying on another A/C's six will appear to be more distant than it actually is.
EX: A/C B is tailing A/C A. A checks six and sees the distance to be d1.2, while B sees the distance to be d800.
- Concerning bullet effective range. This is calculated by the distant that the A/C doing the shooting sees, not the A/C being shot at.
To my understanding, this is the reason for the range adjustment.
- Again, say that B is tailing A and that A is a bomber. Assume that the maximum effective range for the bullets is d1.0 or 1000yds. B could park on A's six at range d800. This means the distance from A to B is d1.2 and the distance from B to A is d800. To A, B is out of range. A's bullets will have no effect on B. B can stay at this distance and can shoot without risk of being damaged in return.
None of this answers Hristo's question, but it is all good to know. I think...
Good Luck, Have Fun! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Certainly they must be modeling the ballistic effeciency of the rounds vs range.
Why whould they not just have a 50_B round that was 25% more effecient then the allready efficient 50_F...They are not actually modeling the shape of the bullet they just have some factor in the tables for their projectiles and they hopped up the effect of range on one and not the other..
But Mino explained why I cant hit with my bomber guns at very short range....
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There's no way buff's 50 cals shooting the same half an inch bullets that come out of wing mounted Brownings. Lone buff vs lone fighter stood no chance whatsoever in RL. In AH one needs to be a good fighter pilot and a lucky sob too to just survive the encounter with a B26 not to mention B17.
They start pinging manoeuvering fighter approaching from 3/9 at 300+ mph at 1,500 yards and that's just roadkill (or scrifice of realism for playability's sake which is sorta fair enough). They take a wing of a plane with a couple of pings of the same - err - 50 cals... Yeahright (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF
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Mino: Yes it could be "Matrix" physics, but that's harder to add to the existing code than just fudging one of the physical parameters of the projectile.
Pongo: You are saying he might have used a lower drag coefficient?
That would still give a lethality boost at all ranges. Admittedly it wouldn't be as significant up close, but it would still exist. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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had same experience yesterday.
got hits from a b26 from 1.8k and later from
1.5k.
there is something wong with this buffs.
hunted a b26 at 5k. wasn't able to pass him
to get in a good attacking position.
i flew a fw with 4x20mm and 50%fuel and was
TOO slow. hmmm, b26 at 5k as fast as fw???
hate AH buffs!!!!!!!!
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habicht.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 05-10-2000).]
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Killing Bombers 101:
First lesson, never hunt alone. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) If you do hunt alone, see 2nd and 3rd lesson:
Second lesson: Come in from high 12, straight down on top of them. (elevator input makes them miss miserably, and you don't lose E)
Third lesson: Always use the Cannon Hogget.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-10-2000).]
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
There's no way buff's 50 cals shooting the same half an inch bullets that come out of wing mounted Brownings. Lone buff vs lone fighter stood no chance whatsoever in RL. In AH one needs to be a good fighter pilot and a lucky sob too to just survive the encounter with a B26 not to mention B17.
They start pinging manoeuvering fighter approaching from 3/9 at 300+ mph at 1,500 yards and that's just roadkill (or scrifice of realism for playability's sake which is sorta fair enough). They take a wing of a plane with a couple of pings of the same - err - 50 cals... Yeahright (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Hmm...
I guess it is different for different players. If I set up on a BUFF right, make my attack clean and in one pass. The BUFF goes boom and I fly away.
When I screw up, sit on the BUFF's six, make the wrong attack or remain too stationary. The BUFF flies away and I go boom.
BTW this is from P-38, not an uber-BUFF hunter. I find the attack that works the best for me is a pure vertical move from a 4 or 8 starting point.
I try to get d2.5 to d3.0 higher than the BUFF and start my dive from around 200mph. Start shooting at d1.2, well ahead of the BUFF's line of flight. The target is large, because you see the whole planform. Try to position yourself slightly to one side or the other so that your shots hit wings and fuselage.
Closer rate becomes an issue and should be very rapid. You don't have time to waste.
The idea is to only allow the BUFF to be able to train one turret on you (2 guns). This is the upper turret when attacking, and belly turret when you are extending. With a 4 or 8 attack you are crossing the BUFF's line of flight and it makes you harder to track. This is because you force them to track in two directions with the guns, vice one.
If you enter into the BUFF's rear cone of fire. Stay there long and you are toast.
Attack angles for B-17
- Level six or HO = 6 guns - Bad idea, unless closure rate is very very very high
- Level six or HO from the side = 7 guns - Very bad idea
- High / low six or HO = 4 guns - Poor idea
- High / low six or HO from the side = 5 guns - Poorer idea
- Side from high / low = 3 guns - OK idea, often positions you on the BUFF's six
- Side attack = 5 guns - No so OK idea
- Vertical below or above = 2 guns - Best idea, the well timed vertical diving attack is optimum
You can analyze the B-26 in the same fashion. The B-26 has no belly turret. Some like this attack angle, I do not. Its timing is too crucial. It often leaves you hanging motionless in the B-26's rear cone of fire or for any escort fighter to come along and snuff you easily.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
PS: Sorry Rip I was writing this while you were posting that...
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 05-10-2000).]
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...happened again...
400 ias side pass (90 degrees), both wings and all stabs gone from 900 yards.
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I use the same exact attack profile as Mino, and usually have good luck with that. I've used the P-51 on these attacks as well, and have had just as good as luck as with a -1C.
Cobra
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"...happened again...400 ias side pass (90 degrees), both wings and all stabs gone from 900 yards."
Try flying BELOW the usable range of the upper turret. Attack a B26 like a shark, come up from underneath and rip it apart.
-Westy