Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Saurdaukar on February 03, 2010, 01:27:54 PM
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Surprisingly, the company that built my machine will not offer upgrade advice or opinion for liability reasons... very strange "customer service."
I am in the process of researching now and would appreciate any relatively elevated wisdom since I stopped building my own machines when a 66Mhz processor was considered "fast."
What I've got:
Core2Duo E6850 @ 3Ghz
Asus P5N-E SLI nForce 650I MB
1GB DDR2 PC6400 (x2 = 2BG total)
nVidia 8800GT 512MB PCI-E
Windows XP Pro SP3
Coolermaster 600-Watt PS
I will be adding an additional 2GB of memory in conjunction with the GPU upgrade.
My question is this...
What is the best, single-slot, nVidia GPU I can buy with consideration given for the limitations imposed by my processor(s), operating system and power supply?
Its time for an upgrade, but I want to avoid wasting money by installing a 2,000HP DB-605 into a VW Beetle, so to speak. The car (PC) would never make full use of the engine (GPU).
Thoughts?
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I think your power supply will be the limiting factor.
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Find the exact model number and specs on this:
Coolermaster 600-Watt PS
and it will be easier to give you some suggestions.
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Surprisingly, the company that built my machine will not offer upgrade advice or opinion for liability reasons... very strange "customer service."
I am in the process of researching now and would appreciate any relatively elevated wisdom since I stopped building my own machines when a 66Mhz processor was considered "fast."
What I've got:
Core2Duo E6850 @ 3Ghz
Asus P5N-E SLI nForce 650I MB
1GB DDR2 PC6400 (x2 = 2BG total)
nVidia 8800GT 512MB PCI-E
Windows XP Pro SP3
Coolermaster 600-Watt PS
I will be adding an additional 2GB of memory in conjunction with the GPU upgrade.
My question is this...
What is the best, single-slot, nVidia GPU I can buy with consideration given for the limitations imposed by my processor(s), operating system and power supply?
Its time for an upgrade, but I want to avoid wasting money by installing a 2,000HP DB-605 into a VW Beetle, so to speak. The car (PC) would never make full use of the engine (GPU).
Thoughts?
I would get some more RAM if I were you first, unless that 1GB was supposed to be 4GB.
9800GTX+'s are pretty good cards from what I have read, but I just jumped from an 8800gts to an HD5870, so I don't know how the cards in-between would stack up.
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I almost did the same, but he has 2 GB - he just specified it differently than you or I would have.
Another GB or two isn't going to be big bang for buck for AH.
<S>
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Power Supply:
CoolerMaster 600Watts eXtreme Power Power Supply Unit
Code: PS-117-101
Model RP-600-PCAR (Non-PFC)
Type ATX from factor 12V V2.01
Input Voltage 90~132V / 180~260 V (Selectable)
Input Current 6.3A@230Vac / 10A@115Vac
Input Frequency Range 47~63Hz
Fan Sleeve bearing 120mm fan
Power Good Signal 100-500ms
Hold Up Time >17ms
Efficiency >70% typically
MTBF >100,000 hrs
Protection OVP / OPP / Short Circuit Protection
Dimension Standard ATX PS2 150 x 140 x 86 mm
Operation Temperature 5~50°C
Safety Safety Nemko / TUV / cUL / CE / BSMI / FCC / CCC
I was going to add another 2GB of DDR2 anyway, but I think Im just going to spring for 4GB of "better" RAM considering DDR2 is so cheap.
(AH runs very well on my machine 95% of the time but I'm anal about random FPS drops)
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For quick reference:
Output +3.3V@25A, +5V@30A, +12V1@18A,+12V2@18A, -12V@0.8A, +5VSB@2.0A
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171013&Tpk=eXtreme%20Power%20600W
Didn't see the 12V rail(s) listed yet, so I looked em up...saves others time. Internet is being slow for me right now so I'll leave the suggestions to others (Don't want to suggest something you can't use because I cant check specs).
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All of that is Greek to me... thanks.
Also - and I apologize for this stupid question... I am confusing myself with all the different iterations of PCI Express.
x16
2.0
2.1
x16 2.0
x16 2.1
So on and so forth... I can find multiple references to my MB supporting multiple PCI types... I can also find different versions of the 8800GT described as all of the different types of PCI... that's making me nuts.
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Newegg does not accept orders by phone, chat, email, fax or mail. Also, please note that Customer Service can not offer any Sales, Compatibility or Technical Support. For this information, please visit the manufacturers contact page.
What is it with these companies?
I want to give them my money and they cant even help me spend it appropriately? :mad:
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Relevant to the above:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2853608&CatId=2541
Asus P5N-E SLI Motherboard
You know that when building the perfect PC, the motherboard is as important as anything. That's why you should check out this Asus P5N-E SLI mobo. This motherboard supports the latest IntelŪ Quad-core processors in LGA775 package. It's excellent for multi-tasking, multi-media and enthusiastic gamers! It's designed for great performance and overclocking! With an NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI chipset and a front side bus capable of 1333/1066/533 MHz, your machine will be ready to chew up anything you feed it. Four 240-pin DIMM sockets support up to 8GB of DDR2 non-ECC unbuffered memory. DDR2 is the next generation memory technology to replace the current DDR. With the highest speed up to 800MHz, DDR2 memory provides great performance for 3D graphics and other memory demanding applications. This great platform has 2 PCI Express x16 slots, 1 PCI Express x1, and 2 PCI 2.2 slots! There's Gigabit LAN, support for up to 8 USB 2.0 ports, and tons more features! Check out the detailed specifications for all the goodies in this powerful motherboard. Don't settle for something less. Pick up the Asus P5N-E SLI motherboard today!
Does this mean I am not limited in the "PCI" area? The above is the clearest definition I could find.
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"Also - and I apologize for this stupid question... I am confusing myself with all the different iterations of PCI Express."
There are a few to know:
PCI/PCI-E(xpress)
PCI - the primary expansion slot for thing like Wireless Network Card, Sound Cards and the likes.
PCI-E x1 - The smallest physical slot, a higher-bandwidth PCI slot used for Sound Cards primarily.
PCI-E x16 (1.x) - Expansion slot for GPUs
PCI-E x16 (2.0) - Newer Expansion Slot for GPUs, has a higher bandwidth than 1.x, primarily used for newer generation cards (Examples: GTX 260/280/295 & ATI HD 57xx/58xx/59xx).
PCI-E x16 1.0-2.0 are compatible with each other, you can use a GeForce 8800 (1.x) in a 2.0 slot or a GTX 280 (2.0) in a 1.x slot.
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It looks like you've got enough power to run any reasonably priced video card (you know... not the $400-500 models) as long as you have the right power connectors for it. Most take a single six pin but some take combinations of multiple six and/or eight pin connectors so open up the case and see what you've got.
You've got 36 amps on the 12V rails. To be safe don't exceed about a 28 amp power requirement but that's going to include most everything. If it's not listed at the site you buy the card at go to the manufacturers site to be sure what the card needs.
PCIe x16 and PCIe X16 2.0 are cross compatible but 2.0 offers double the bandwidth. No matter which your motherboard supports get a 2.0 card so you have the option of swapping it into a 2.0 supported motherboard at a later date.
Other than that make your decision based on these factors (in order from most to least important. A bigger number is always better):
Memory type (GDDR2, GDDR3, etc.) and bandwidth (128 bit, 256 bit, etc.)
Memory speed (in Mhz)
Core clock speed (in Mhz)
Pixel Pipelines
Memory amount (in Mb or Gb)
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This is just off the cuff and you did say:
Its time for an upgrade, but I want to avoid wasting money by installing a 2,000HP DB-605 into a VW Beetle, so to speak. The car (PC) would never make full use of the engine (GPU).
I'm only recommending this because you did specify Nvidia and you have an Nforce chipset mobo, and I have owned several PNY Nvidia chip video cards with their "lifetime limited" warranties without a single failure.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133270 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133270)
If you were able to go ATI that would be a different story...but on an Nforce mobo, that is a massive headache.
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This is just off the cuff and you did say:I'm only recommending this because you did specify Nvidia and you have an Nforce chipset mobo, and I have owned several PNY Nvidia chip video cards with their "lifetime limited" warranties without a single failure.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133270 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133270)
If you were able to go ATI that would be a different story...but on an Nforce mobo, that is a massive headache.
Too much card. GTX 260's require around 36 amps.
Mazz, I'd say with your CPU get this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130339&cm_re=9800gtx-_-14-130-339-_-Product (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130339&cm_re=9800gtx-_-14-130-339-_-Product)
It'll do what you need, with the CPU you have, without too much "bottlenecking" all around. The company is great to RMA stuff to, if need be as well. Not to mention a Lifetime Warranty.
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Well Mash, considering the 8800 and 9800 have the same chipsets and memory specs...that 9800 is gonna be like trading a Buick 4 cylinder for a Buick 4 cylinder that has an aftermarket fuel injection system...I would have recommended the 250GT but that's not much of a step up from either the 9800 or 8800, and I know it's not quite the performance gain he is wanting.
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true the 8800 and 9800 are basically the same card. If I was you I would probably add more ram see how it goes then think of a VC but if you still want the 9800 get the 9800gtx+. just make your case as enough space since the 9800gtx+is a big card and it needs lots of space, I think and dont quote me but at least 12 inches.
semp
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the older 8800 have a different chipset. towards the end of production of the 8800 and the new 9800 were about the same card. I dont know what chip set the newer 9800 is running these days.
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The question is...he has an 8800GT 512 card now...what can he put in the system with an Nforce mobo that will increase his performance without having to buy a better PSU?
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A 200 series card will be too much for his PSU but he could get a small gain running a 9800 GTX. Here's a comparison with the 9800 GT which is essentially the same as his 8800 GT but, considering the likely age of his card it probably also uses GDDR2 memory so the move to GDDR3 would also be a bump up.
GPU GeForce 9800 GT GeForce 9800 GTX
Core Clock 600MHz 675MHz
Stream Processors 112 128
Effective Memory Clock 1800MHz 2200MHz (effective)
Memory Size 512MB 512MB
Memory Interface 256-bit 256-bit
Memory Type GDDR3 DDR3
(AH runs very well on my machine 95% of the time but I'm anal about random FPS drops)
This would likely be just enough of a gain to fix that problem.
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Baldy you're talking marginal gain...he may as well buy a 250GTS and get the most up to date 8800/9800 chipset available...and have faster core/shader clock speeds. For any real performance gain, it's going to start at the 260GT level and go up from there.
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Baldy you're talking marginal gain...he may as well buy a 250GTS and get the most up to date 8800/9800 chipset available...and have faster core/shader clock speeds. For any real performance gain, it's going to start at the 260GT level and go up from there.
I have an 8800GTS KO coupled with my E8400. I'd notice "more noticeable gains" with a 200 series card, before Mazz would. Mazz would "notice small, but worthwhile gains" with a 9800GTX or GTX+, coupled with his E6850 CPU. Also to run any 200 series safely, he'd need an upgrade of his PSU to make sure there is sufficient Amperage and "overhead" and not being on the border of maxing the PSU out.
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the older 8800 have a different chipset. towards the end of production of the 8800 and the new 9800 were about the same card. I dont know what chip set the newer 9800 is running these days.
Yep ... my older 8800 GTS is a G80 chip where as the 8800gt is a G92. The G92 chipped cards are a decent bump up from the older GTs's
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Coolermaster isn't a bad PS but it's not normally tested at 40C but at 25C. So your 36@ on the 12V rail is a bit misleading. The GTS250 only draws about 15@ so its actually a very good card but close to what you have. I wouldn't put anything much beyond that in since your continuous power on the 12V rails is probably a bit less then you think at 40C...
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Im running a Asus M4N72-E Dual PCI Express16 Nvidia N-Force 750aSLI with 2 XFX GTX260 but im using a 1000watt PS, this thing just smokes any game
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You guys are on crack. My nvidia GTX 260 runs like a champ on a quality 600W power supply, and my cpu is a C2Duo at 3Ghz. With 3 hard drives, 2 optical drives, and an add-on PCI soundcard, the computer is nice and stable under full load (cpu and graphics).
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why does it have to be nvidia? I just crossed over from a 8800gts to the 5850 and this thing :rock with my 620w PSU....
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You guys are on crack. My nvidia GTX 260 runs like a champ on a quality 600W power supply, and my cpu is a C2Duo at 3Ghz. With 3 hard drives, 2 optical drives, and an add-on PCI soundcard, the computer is nice and stable under full load (cpu and graphics).
Key word there is quality. Any PSU that can actually deliver 600W of clean continuous power at 50C is more then enough. The problem is that a majority of units list peak power not continous output and give the rated output at room temp not a standard operating temp of 40C or above. Going back to the old PC power and cooling FAQ you deduct 40% from any suspect rating. So a standard 600W PS delivers roughly 360W of usable power and often less.
So as an example I'd use this 500W (actually 510) PW over any current "700W" PS on the market today other then corsair OCZ and a few others
http://www.pcpower.com/power-supply/turbo-cool-510-xe.html (http://www.pcpower.com/power-supply/turbo-cool-510-xe.html)
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I agree with humble(snaphook) & eagl
a quality PSU should be high priority on your list if not the 1st Priority.........
PC Power & Cooling PSU's are hard to beat......... and you can get them cheap if you go with an open box or recertified one from NewEgg...
example:
Recertified: PC Power and Cooling Silencer 750 Quad Red 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Certified 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703029
cost: $89.99 + $10.18 standard shipping.......
heck, I paid $179.00 for mine when it was on sale.... they retailed for around $199.99 for the longest time........
also, as Bruv119 posted... why stay with Nvidia....... Ati has some great options for you to choose from....... any 3870, 4850/4870, 5850 card will be of great improvement ( my opinion anyhows....... I am on an old Ati model ASUS EAH3870 TOP 512meg DDR4, and I am maxed out everything 1280 x 1024 screen res, 1024 hires texture pkg, and shadows in advanced settings set to 2048....... I get 70 fr in windows XP and I get 75 fr in Windows 7 damn near constant steady no matter where I am flying..... I do see it dip sometimes to like near 45/50 fr(fps) right as I click LAUNCH but it quickly rebounds before the plane starts to move)
my 2 cents
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Thats a great deal on that PSU . Sometimes people overlook the importance of a good PSU and just shop by price alone . My current PSU has been running a water cooling system along with overclocked CPU / GPU for over 4 years so it's more than payed for itself . It's a Thermaltake purepower 680W V2(first version was terrible) with 52A 12+ 30A 3+ 28A 3.3+ rails its been carried over threw 3 different system upgrades and runs my current setup without issue . I remember my wife complaining about spending 200 dollars on a psu but if i had went with a cheapy I'm sure i would have bought 2-3 cheap ones over the course of the last 4 years .
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Thats a great deal on that PSU . Sometimes people overlook the importance of a good PSU and just shop by price alone . My current PSU has been running a water cooling system along with overclocked CPU / GPU for over 4 years so it's more than payed for itself . It's a Thermaltake purepower 680W V2(first version was terrible) with 52A 12+ 30A 3+ 28A 3.3+ rails its been carried over threw 3 different system upgrades and runs my current setup without issue . I remember my wife complaining about spending 200 dollars on a psu but if i had went with a cheapy I'm sure i would have bought 2-3 cheap ones over the course of the last 4 years .
Couldn't agree more. I bought a part and got a free '480w PSU' with the part. Now of course it's sitting on my shelf in the box, I'll probably use it if I ever have to fix an older computer with a busted PSU or something...only has 330w output, 480 max.
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why does it have to be nvidia? I just crossed over from a 8800gts to the 5850 and this thing :rock with my 620w PSU....
He has an Nforce mobo...the Nforce chipsets have been known to cause problems with ATI video cards installed on them.
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He has an Nforce mobo...the Nforce chipsets have been known to cause problems with ATI video cards installed on them.
It's a conspiracy... :noid
That being the case, the 9800 series or low GTX series would be the best you could possibly do right now with what you got.
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cmon guys a 600W power supply, even with 'only' 80% efficiency is WAY enough for a C2D with a single videocard and a regular number of peripherals....and I would bet a 2nd videocard would fit like dady into mummy...
and btw how can you guys still recommend a sub-par nvidia card ? :D
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why does it have to be nvidia? I just crossed over from a 8800gts to the 5850 and this thing :rock with my 620w PSU....
He has an Nforce mobo...the Nforce chipsets have been known to cause problems with ATI video cards installed on them.
What he said.
I've read enough about ATI and nForce MB's to scare me away.
In any event, apologies for neglecting the thread. Didnt have a power for a few days due to the global warming-fueled "snow storm of the century" and have been playing catchup since.
I think what Im reading is that anything above a 9800GTX+ would be wasted due to the CPU bottleneck. That's good to know as it was my primary concern.
My thought following this is that I should just build a new machine since the 9X-series cards are already "old."
Following that thought, I researched the new Intel CPU's. Wow. And I thought GPU's were complicated...
Apparently, for gaming (my primary focus), the i7, for all intents and purposes, offers no real increase for the price over a basic C2D since most games dont use the technology anyway - hell - most don't use the second core I have now.
However, a newer MB housing said CPU would allow for far more GPU options (PCI-E 2.0) and not bottleneck the card.
Is it worth me just spending a grand for a new machine instead of $300-400 on a GPU and memory for a relatively out-dated system? New machines are so damned cheap that it almost feels silly to upgrade what I have... although I suppose its silly to upgrade what I have in the first place since it runs AH at a solid 60FPS, as stated, 95% of the time.
Decisions decisions...
EDIT: There is also the consideration of whether or not I finally give up XP for Windows 7 (and DX10/11). I wouldn't even bother with the current machine but DX9-limitations are starting to show their age.
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Sauda, from everything I'VE heard 7 is as good, if not better than XP. I'm looking to get it as soon as I can.
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Saurdaukar, you're CPU isn't what I would call a "bottleneck"...anyone that says it is needs their head examined...it's your mobo and power supply...your PCI-X 16 slot is a 1.0 version and what you need is v2.0 to take advantage of the bigger video cards...and you're power supply is a bit weak on the 12v rails to handle much more of a video card than possibly the 9800GTX. There are a number of people playing AH with 9800GTX cards with everything maxed out. The only other consideration is that you could have beaucoup problems trying to use an ATI video card due to the Nforce chipset.
Conceivably, you could replace that mobo with something newer for about $100-$150, then buy a better power supply and new video card...if you stay away from the Nforce mobos your choice of video cards goes way up...and you could go with ATI which appears to be less problematic driver wise at the moment.
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I agree with gyrene81. Your CPU is not a bottleneck.
I'm playing with this:
Nvidia 780i motherboard
Intel E6750 (2.66 Ghz OC'd to 3.2 Ghz)
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro CPU cooler
4x1 Gb Kingston HyperX DDR2 800 RAM (@ 4-4-4-12 timings)
Nvidia 8800 GTS 512 Mb (G92 GPU)
Soundblaster XFi Xtreme Gamer sound card
PC Power & Cooling 750W Silencer PSU
2x Seagate 250 Gb AS Series SATA HD's
2x Seagate 500 Gb NS Series SATA HD's
2x Asus SATA Optical drives (DVD burner & DVD player)
1x floppy drive
Coolermaster case
XP Pro
LG 22" LCD (1600x1050)
Klipsh 2.1 speakers
Logitec mike
Saitek AV8R
I run a steady 59 fps (refresh rate) with hi-res textures and all graphic card and game settings turned up (IIRC I'm running 16xAA and 4xAF... I can't tell the difference above that) with the exception of shadows and soft shadows. I can turn shadows on without affecting frame rate but I don't like how they look without soft shadows which kill my fps.
I ran two of those video cards for a short time in SLI but in SLI I couldn't enable vsync so went back to a single card. 280 fps on an LCD is not pretty.
Your bottlenecks in order of importance are your PSU, motherboard and video card.
You might be able to just add 2Gb of RAM and OC your CPU to about 3.4-3.6 Ghz and solve all your short term problems depending on what you have for a CPU cooler. Even if you have to upgrade the CPU cooler your total investment is still well under $100.
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Liquid cooled so OC is an option.
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Liquid cooled so OC is an option.
If you're considering that and aren't familiar with doing it PM me and I'll walk you thought it. It's not that hard but it can be a bit time consuming so set aside a 2-3 hours and you'll need a few free tools to test the OC and monitor the system.
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I have a p5ne-sli running a GTS250 from BFG tech. The GTS250's are actually 9800GTX chips with some bells and whistles added. The card is limited by the 1.0 slot but it runs fine in the 75-85FPS range with vsync on. My machine is limited by its slow RAM clock and the single core P4 at the moment. Tax check will correct that soon.
I plan on getting a board that has a 2.0 PCIe setup and maybe DDR3 RAM slots. That should let this 250 card run a whole lot faster.
I am running a Corsair TX650 PSU that is certified 80plus. It will provide 80% of rated power under load and temp.
100 bucks at BestBuy.
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Ok, it appears my choice for the 9800GTX+ seems to have struck a nerve. IIRC, he did NOT really wish to "upgrade his PSU" and the risk of running a GTS(X) 2 series on the current PSU leaves little to no room for Amperage allowance.
All I did was provide a "stop-gap" upgrade from his current GPU. Yes, there will be a difference. My head doesn't need examining, it's just fine and there is no sense on dropping $300 on a GPU. As Mazz has already stated, he'll consider upgrading in the near future.
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Mash...no one said you needed your head examined...although it might be a good idea :neener:
Even if he did get a 9800GTX...the PCI-E x16 slots on his mobo are v1.0 or 1.1 and in order to get maximum benefit from the 9800 or any other PCI-E x16 2.0 video card is to at a minimum...replace the mobo.
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Yeah, that's whats picking at me... Using a 2.0 GPU in a 1.0 slot seems like a waste... but I dont know what the true impact would be. I cant seem to find any benchmarks where one of the cards in question is tested in both slots. I dont know if performance potential would be harmed by 5% or 50%.
Beyond that, if I go through the trouble of replacing the PS, MB, etc, etc, the bill gets up there pretty quickly.
What I fear is going through the process of upgrading the problem parts (MB, PS, etc) prior to adding a GPU and more memory - and then looking at the final cost estimate and finding it more practical to simply buy a new machine.
BE - thanks much for your offer. I may well give that a shot.
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Well, supposedly according "standard specs" the PCI-E x16 slot is roughly 1/2 the data transfer rate of the PCI-E x16 2.0. Trying to assimilate that into actual performance...maybe akin to running that new 9800GTX like your old 8800GT.
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Yeah, that's whats picking at me... Using a 2.0 GPU in a 1.0 slot seems like a waste... but I dont know what the true impact would be. I cant seem to find any benchmarks where one of the cards in question is tested in both slots. I dont know if performance potential would be harmed by 5% or 50%.
Beyond that, if I go through the trouble of replacing the PS, MB, etc, etc, the bill gets up there pretty quickly.
What I fear is going through the process of upgrading the problem parts (MB, PS, etc) prior to adding a GPU and more memory - and then looking at the final cost estimate and finding it more practical to simply buy a new machine.
BE - thanks much for your offer. I may well give that a shot.
I think getting more out of your CPU, will be more beneficial.
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No current videocard requires pci-e 2.0 bus, they hardly can take all bandwith from a x16 1.0.
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No current videocard requires pci-e 2.0 bus, they hardly can take all bandwith from a x16 1.0.
So, why would they be labeled for pci-e 2.0 and 2.1? Just a marketing tool?
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So, why would they be labeled for pci-e 2.0 and 2.1? Just a marketing tool?
Yep, pci-e 2.0 compatible does not mean it requires 2.0.
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No current videocard requires pci-e 2.0 bus, they hardly can take all bandwith from a x16 1.0.
Ok - so what Im hearing is that the performance potential of a GPU which *can* use a 2.0 slot isn't severely impacted by being limited to a x16 1.0 slot because most "second tier" upgrade options (GTX+/250/260/etx) cant make full use of the 2.0 slot anyway?
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I don't think so. I tried to find PCIe x16 1.1 vs 2.0 benchmarks and couldn't so I went to eVGA's website and chose the 8xxx series cards to do a product comparison. Here's two identical cards, one based on PCIe x16 and the other based on PCIe x16 2.0:
EVGA GeForce 8400 GS e-GeForce 8400 GS
Price EVGA Price $39.99
EVGA Price $39.99
Backordered
General Info Remove From Comparison Remove From Comparison
Part Number 512-P3-N725-LR 512-P2-N738-LR
Bus PCI-E 2.0 2.1 PCI-E 16x
Connections DVI-I, VGA DVI-I, VGA, HDTV-7
SLI Ready No No
DirectX 10 Ready Yes Yes
Power Supply 350 Watt 350 Watt
Dimensions Height: 4.376 in - 111.15 mm
Length: 6.625 in - 168.27 mm Height: 4.376 in - 111.15 mm
Length: 6.5 in - 165 mm
Technical Info
GPU 8400 GS 8400 GS
GPU Speed 567Mhz 459Mhz
Pixel Pipelines 16 16
RAMDAC Speed 400 400
RAM 512 512
RAM Type DDR2 DDR2
RAM Speed 532Mhz (effective) 532Mhz (effective)
Memory Bandwidth 4.26 GB/s 2.12 GB/s
Max Refresh 120Hz 120Hz
Max Resolution Analog 2048x1536 2048x1536
Max Resolution Digital 1920x1200 1920x1200
PDF Link Download Spec PDF Download Spec PDF
Granted these are older sub-par cards for gaming but note the difference in memory bandwith; double for the 2.0 slot vs the 1.x slot.
By comparison the 9800GTX+ runs 70.4 Gb/s memory bandwith (PCIe x16 2.0 from eVGA web-site) while the 8800 GT runs at 57.6 Gb/s (PCIe x16 2.0 from Wikipedia). Your 8800 GT is probably running at just over 25 Gb/s which sounds like the numbers that eVGA used to post for those cards before they moved to 2.0. At the same time upper end cards like the GT295 run an incredible 241.92 GB/s (PCIe x16 2.0 from eVGA web-site). While there was a time where these cards couldn't utilize the bandwith of a 2.0 slot I don't think that's the case any longer, particularily when you look at what the high-end cards are capable of.
Back to the earlier recommendation of a 9800, regardless of the slot by the raw numbers the 9800 GTX+ offers a 22% increase in memory bandwith over the 8800 GT and could always be transferred into a new build at a later date when you'd automatically gain a big performance increase.
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I run 2gts250s and my boy has a gtx260,we both have akasa 600w psu's and neither of us have ever had any problems,all my system is slightly overclocked too.The gtx260 is an awesome card and I would be very surprised if you have any trouble running it,best of luck with whatever you choose anyhow.
shotdown.
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I don't think so. I tried to find PCIe x16 1.1 vs 2.0 benchmarks and couldn't so I went to eVGA's website and chose the 8xxx series cards to do a product comparison. Here's two identical cards, one based on PCIe x16 and the other based on PCIe x16 2.0:
EVGA GeForce 8400 GS e-GeForce 8400 GS
Price EVGA Price $39.99
EVGA Price $39.99
Backordered
General Info Remove From Comparison Remove From Comparison
Part Number 512-P3-N725-LR 512-P2-N738-LR
Bus PCI-E 2.0 2.1 PCI-E 16x
Connections DVI-I, VGA DVI-I, VGA, HDTV-7
SLI Ready No No
DirectX 10 Ready Yes Yes
Power Supply 350 Watt 350 Watt
Dimensions Height: 4.376 in - 111.15 mm
Length: 6.625 in - 168.27 mm Height: 4.376 in - 111.15 mm
Length: 6.5 in - 165 mm
Technical Info
GPU 8400 GS 8400 GS
GPU Speed 567Mhz 459Mhz
Pixel Pipelines 16 16
RAMDAC Speed 400 400
RAM 512 512
RAM Type DDR2 DDR2
RAM Speed 532Mhz (effective) 532Mhz (effective)
Memory Bandwidth 4.26 GB/s 2.12 GB/s
Max Refresh 120Hz 120Hz
Max Resolution Analog 2048x1536 2048x1536
Max Resolution Digital 1920x1200 1920x1200
PDF Link Download Spec PDF Download Spec PDF
Granted these are older sub-par cards for gaming but note the difference in memory bandwith; double for the 2.0 slot vs the 1.x slot.
By comparison the 9800GTX+ runs 70.4 Gb/s memory bandwith (PCIe x16 2.0 from eVGA web-site) while the 8800 GT runs at 57.6 Gb/s (PCIe x16 2.0 from Wikipedia). Your 8800 GT is probably running at just over 25 Gb/s which sounds like the numbers that eVGA used to post for those cards before they moved to 2.0. At the same time upper end cards like the GT295 run an incredible 241.92 GB/s (PCIe x16 2.0 from eVGA web-site). While there was a time where these cards couldn't utilize the bandwith of a 2.0 slot I don't think that's the case any longer, particularily when you look at what the high-end cards are capable of.
Back to the earlier recommendation of a 9800, regardless of the slot by the raw numbers the 9800 GTX+ offers a 22% increase in memory bandwith over the 8800 GT and could always be transferred into a new build at a later date when you'd automatically gain a big performance increase.
Its amazing how much I learn on this forum... you guys rock.
Back to RAM, breifly, if I may...
My FSB is 1333 and it appears that my MB will support DDR2-1067... (or 1066 depending on what you read - same thing).
DDR2-1067 Support Source:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/asus-p5ne-sli_2.html
Any real benefit from going to DDR2-800 to DDR2-1067? The prices are about identical. Both about $120 for 2x2GB.
Examples:
Kingston HyperX 2x2GB DDR2-800, 5-5-5-15. Near as makes no difference; $120.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4505195&CatId=3412
Kingston HyperX 2x2GB DDR2-1066, 5-5-5-15. Near as makes no difference; $120.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4242488&CatId=3413
If there is a benefit, why are the latency numbers (which I only partially understand) the same? If the answer is complex - skip that question and move on to this one - do I even care? What would you ("you" being someone more versed than me... so pretty much everyone else in this thread...) buy?
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Yep, pci-e 2.0 compatible does not mean it requires 2.0.
It's not "compatible" bud...it's a specified standard. As you can see by BaldEagl's findings there is a difference.
Amazing the things you learn when you open your mind isn't it?
Saurdaukar, you might want to check the info on your mobo to see what needs to be done in order to run 1066 memory. Sometimes it's a bios tweak, sometimes it's just plug n play...when I looked at the specs on your mobo there wasn't any indication of special settings needed to run the 1066. If the cost is the same, of course I would go with the 1066 over the 800 as long as your mobo supports it.
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There's no need to go to DDR2 1066 but all other things being equal (latencies and price) then there's no harm in it.
Your RAM is limited by your CPU. You have a double pumped dual core CPU running on a 1333 FSB. That means the core clock speed is 333 Mhz (1333/4). Because you have DDR2 RAM anything higher that DDR2 667 will be waiting on the CPU (333x2). If you overclock your CPU about 20% the FSB will go to 1600 Mhz with a core clock of 400 Mhz and make full use of your DDR2 800 RAM. DDR2 1066 would allow an even higher OC but it's doubtful you'de actually get much higher than that 1600 FSB mark (an OC to 3.6 Ghz would fully utilize DDR2 800 while an OC to 4.8 Ghz would fully utilize DDR2 1066).
So, if you think 3.6 Ghz will be the limit then finding DDR2 800 with the lowest latencies possible would perform better than DDR2 1066 with higher latencies. Like I said, latencies and price being the same you might as well get the 1066 even though you won't really use it. In fact, if you knew you'de never OC then DDR2 667 with even lower latencies would perform better than what you have.
BTW, I'm going to reneg on an earlier comment and tell you you could run a card as high as a GTX260 but no higher and, depending on specific card and manufacturer you'll have to be very careful not to exceed a 36 amp requirement. You have 36 amps and the manufacturer's recommendations do include typical system requirements outside of the video card. If you have a lot of internal components then I wouldn't do it and even if you're "normal" in terms of system amperage just be aware you'll be on the edge as far as your PSU goes. It could work but do so at your own risk. You don't have overhead to spare.
[EDIT] I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't break the 1600 FSB barrier but that a 20% OC of any recent Intel CPU is pretty easily attainable. After that it starts to get dicier. If you break that OC then the faster RAM is what you want (the 1066). Even though you could OC the slower RAM that presents a whole new set of challenges so you're better off just buying the faster stuff to start with and under utilizing it.
I also meant to say you want your RAM limited by your CPU, not the other way around.
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Ok, I understand that... let me digest it...
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Decision update:
After careful consideration, I purchased an EVGA 9800GTX+ 512MB and 4GB of Kingston Hyper X PC6400 DDR2 (5-5-5-15).
RAM arrived today. GPU will probably arrive tomorrow.
That being the case... I may very well hit you up, BE, on your offer of OC assistance in the semi-near future. I'd like to measure stock v. stock performance, first, however. If your offer stands, I'll shoot you a PM when I think I've learned enough to take the machine a step up.
(As a caveat, I went with PC6400 because any future overclock I would prefer to be "mild." I have no desire to abuse the system. As such, the 1066 wouldnt be fully utilized, I suppose.)
Thanks all very much. :salute
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Shoot me a PM when you're ready.
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It's not "compatible" bud...it's a specified standard. As you can see by BaldEagl's findings there is a difference.
Amazing the things you learn when you open your mind isn't it?
No, the amount of blatant misinformation on this forum is mind boggling. The memory bandwith is INTERNAL TO THE CARD and has NOTHING to do with PCI-E bus rating. The very fact that you couldn't find any reviews comparing the two bus types shows it's totally non relevant to performance with current generation cards!
Please people, do not spread bs.
The only situation where the bus may make a difference is low end non-gaming capable cards that use shared system memory or textures that over saturate internal card memory. That is about 10x slower than any card with dedicated memory running PCI-E 1.0 x8. Regardless of bus speed you're going to get stuttering if you need to load stuff from system memory.
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See Rule #4
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Here is a comparison of different pci-e bus speeds and games.
FSX being the exception there's no difference between running pci-e 1.0 x16 or 2.0 x16
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-2.0,1915-10.html
and this is only because FSX overflows the internal vram. So basically it crawls with any card because of this.
So for AH2 and majority of other current games it makes no difference whether you run x1.0 or x2.0 capable vcard / motherboard. So in conclusion having 2.0 is beneficial but it is in no way a requirement nor does lack of it hinder performance with any other game probably except fsx.
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Here is a comparison of different pci-e bus speeds and games.
FSX being the exception there's no difference between running pci-e 1.0 x16 or 2.0 x16
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-2.0,1915-10.html
and this is only because FSX overflows the internal vram. So basically it crawls with any card because of this.
So for AH2 and majority of other current games it makes no difference whether you run x1.0 or x2.0 capable vcard / motherboard. So in conclusion having 2.0 is beneficial but it is in no way a requirement nor does lack of it hinder performance with any other game probably except fsx.
The only problem with that is that it's from 2008, about the time of the introduction of 2.0. I've been looking for more updated information and can't find any. All of the tests and benchmarks I can find are from 2008 to early 2009 which was during the transition period.
While I admittedly made a mistake above, the internal RAM speed will make a difference over what he's currently running and the comparison of the lower end cards from the eVGA web-site clearly shows an advantage for 2.0.
I wish someone would benchmark current higher end cards using both slots.
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The 9800Gx2 that was used is still close to high-end single cards in performance. The flaw in your logic was to confuse pci-e lane function with memory bandwith. As long as things function as planned, a display card uses only internal memory for operation. If that memory is saturated, performance collapses regardless of pci-e rating. In AH2 this can be seen in effect by selecting too large a shadow buffer. Above a certain limit your performance is just devastated because your display card is streaming i/o through pci-e to system ram instead of internal memory.
The difference you saw in those low-end cards is most likely a typo or the cards are really based on different internal architecture (read: the performance benefit is not related to streaming data through pci-e 2.0 x16).
So while PCI-E 2.0 is not bad by any means, it's just fundamentally wrong to say someone NEEDS it while using a mid-level current card or even high-end single gpu card. So relax folks, world will not turn if you plug a new 2.0 card to an older 1.0 x16 motherboard or vice versa. No need to burn cash over nothing. That is, unless you happen to play FSX on hardcore settings like chalenge.