Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: blyind420 on February 06, 2010, 05:07:57 AM
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my wish is to allow over 32 people in a squad.
64 would be sufficient. :rock
or maybe even take off the squad player limit cap all together,
whats the point of it anyway?
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HiTech say NO to mega squad. Not happening......
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my wish is to allow over 32 people in a squad.
64 would be sufficient. :rock
or maybe even take off the squad player limit cap all together,
whats the point of it anyway?
Exactly, why do you need 64 people in a megasquad?
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One can guess where this discussion will go.
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Exactly, why do you need 64 people in a megasquad?
My guess is time zones. The 81st has about 40 regular players on it, but that expands across the world. Most I've seen on at 1 time is about 20. Generally you'll see about 7 to 12 of us usually at a given time. As for needing more then 64, I guess it's who like to fly with who. <shrug>
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One can guess where this discussion will go.
:noid :devil
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More hordesquads, yay....
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My guess is time zones. The 81st has about 40 regular players on it, but that expands across the world. Most I've seen on at 1 time is about 20. Generally you'll see about 7 to 12 of us usually at a given time. As for needing more then 64, I guess it's who like to fly with who. <shrug>
Why would you fly with a squad that flies outside of your timezones? The point of flying with a squad is to "fly with the squad" not just to fly under a certain banner. When I flew more often I would always look to those guys I saw on at the same time. Those are the guys I'd try to recruit. This way when you had a squad night you had a good chance to have a group on TOGETHER.
Now a days its more about "which clan" you are hooked up with than flying with a bunch of friends. Thats one of the reasons HTC has kept the squad limits at 32. I have seen HT ask if one of the mega squad guys could name every player in the squad off the top of their head. Of course they couldn't, the guy most likely has never flown with half of them. AH is a community, squads are suppose to be a mini community within that community.
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Why would you fly with a squad that flies outside of your timezones? The point of flying with a squad is to "fly with the squad" not just to fly under a certain banner. When I flew more often I would always look to those guys I saw on at the same time. Those are the guys I'd try to recruit. This way when you had a squad night you had a good chance to have a group on TOGETHER.
Now a days its more about "which clan" you are hooked up with than flying with a bunch of friends. Thats one of the reasons HTC has kept the squad limits at 32. I have seen HT ask if one of the mega squad guys could name every player in the squad off the top of their head. Of course they couldn't, the guy most likely has never flown with half of them. AH is a community, squads are suppose to be a mini community within that community.
I fly with a squad outside my timezone because I have friends outside my timezone. I didn't realize it was frowned upon to do so. You're right, the point of flying with squad is to fly with the squad, which is why I fly with the 81st. When I was on the trial, a couple of guys took the time to show me the ropes and answer questions instead of the usual hassle other squads give the new guys on 200 or country. As for squad limits, they are what they are. I was just making an observation as to how big squads can get because of zones.
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Maybe I misunderstood you. I fly 8-11 PM eastern. So, in my case I only see west coasters if they start early, or if I can hang on longer....just on old guy who needs all the beauty sleep I can get... We have had guys join us from the west coast, but they never really last long because most of us are east coasters so are logged off when they are on.
So you being in Tx I guess we rarely run into each other, except maybe on weekends. If you fly more during the week you wouldn't hook up with a squad that is on during the weekends.
What I'm saying is I would never fly with the Jokers or the Pigs, or the Bops because they don't fly when I'm on line. Today alot of "people" seem to want to join a squad because they either have a certain rep, or place on the scoreboard as opposed to a squad that flies when they do. You your self said you joined your squad because they helped you when you first started. If you ran your 2 week trail during vacation and those guys helped you out during the day, once you started work again you would not likely be able to fly with them.
While I don't think it's something thats frowned upon, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to fly with a squad that isn't flying when your on.
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Maybe I misunderstood you. I fly 8-11 PM eastern. So, in my case I only see west coasters if they start early, or if I can hang on longer....just on old guy who needs all the beauty sleep I can get... We have had guys join us from the west coast, but they never really last long because most of us are east coasters so are logged off when they are on.
So you being in Tx I guess we rarely run into each other, except maybe on weekends. If you fly more during the week you wouldn't hook up with a squad that is on during the weekends.
What I'm saying is I would never fly with the Jokers or the Pigs, or the Bops because they don't fly when I'm on line. Today alot of "people" seem to want to join a squad because they either have a certain rep, or place on the scoreboard as opposed to a squad that flies when they do. You your self said you joined your squad because they helped you when you first started. If you ran your 2 week trail during vacation and those guys helped you out during the day, once you started work again you would not likely be able to fly with them.
While I don't think it's something thats frowned upon, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to fly with a squad that isn't flying when your on.
No worries. With me, my schedule is all sorts of messed up. Sometimes I'm on in the middle of the night, sometimes the day. So I end up flying with guys from all over the world. I tried to get beauty rest, then I realized I would need a coma. That's how I think these Mega Squads get formed up. Player A is East coast, B is West coast, B meets C in Australia, C meets D in, I dunno, Timbuktu. Each player also recruits in their prospective time zone, then just add water, ya got a MegaSquad.
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HiTech said Megasquads are bad for the game.
You are complaining that he most you have ever seen on at one time is 20? That is more people than currently flying in the 80th. We had 6 on last night and thought it was a good showing.
If you want to do a 30 man noe raid on a base, that is what the mission planner is for. Squads are more like having 5 wingmen at a time.
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HiTech said Megasquads are bad for the game.
You are complaining that he most you have ever seen on at one time is 20? That is more people than currently flying in the 80th. We had 6 on last night and thought it was a good showing.
If you want to do a 30 man noe raid on a base, that is what the mission planner is for. Squads are more like having 5 wingmen at a time.
Never was complaining about it. I made a comment on how many I saw on at one time. End of story. My point is, we have players that span the globe. England, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Turkey. I can log on at any time an be flying with 6-7 wingmen at any given time. Generally you'll see about 7 to 12 of us usually at a given time.
And I have flown with most of the guys, and have enjoyed it. If HiTech says megasquads are bad, then so be it. It's his sandbox, we're just playing in it. I never said anything about a 30 man NOE raid, where did that come from?
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Raptor mentioned it because if one happens and there are NOE missions at an undefended base, three squads come to mind immediately.
Also, if you choose to have 100± members, the current system is to discourage that in the first place. There comes a point to where it becomes "excessive" and this is definately one of those times.
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Raptor mentioned it because if one happens and there are NOE missions at an undefended base, three squads come to mind immediately.
Also, if you choose to have 100± members, the current system is to discourage that in the first place. There comes a point to where it becomes "excessive" and this is definately one of those times.
Cool, makes sense. Never understood the whole NOE horde thing myself. Personally it seems to use up to many resources for little gain. 20+ planes (by that I mean the typhy raid or a bunch of fighters) to hit a base, in hopes for the vulch? You'll have to take a number to get a kill. You'll get what, 1 maybe 2 kills in? We're working on using small, low, fast moving units to strike towns to take base intact. Getting a couple of these units in the air seems to provide more advantages then the horde.
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its a wonder anyone post anything on this forum it seems every idea gets shot down before it gets considered
what about a possible "linking" of squads, where they would still only contain 32 players max but you could "link" or "ally" with another squad so all of the members to both squads use the same red squad channel and they ALL show up when you do .sr
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its a wonder anyone post anything on this forum it seems every idea gets shot down before it gets considered
what about a possible "linking" of squads, where they would still only contain 32 players max but you could "link" or "ally" with another squad so all of the members to both squads use the same red squad channel and they ALL show up when you do .sr
No. You're upset because Red Text cannot go across 2+ "Wings" of squadrons. You want that many "wings", you have to deal with the consequences. We KNOW "What you want and Why you want it." You are never going to get it.
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No. You're upset because Red Text cannot go across 2+ "Wings" of squadrons. You want that many "wings", you have to deal with the consequences. We KNOW "What you want and Why you want it." You are never going to get it.
:aok
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20 people in the same squad at one time, I would consider that a lot good turn out.
semp
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No. You're upset because Red Text cannot go across 2+ "Wings" of squadrons. You want that many "wings", you have to deal with the consequences. We KNOW "What you want and Why you want it." You are never going to get it.
Agreed.
Except I wouldn't go as far to say you'll never get it. Mega sqauders have already found a way around the 32 player max by just tuning to a common channel.
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If a squad could have 64 members then certain squads would only need 2 wings instead of 7-8.
:noid
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Historically:
An air force, army aviation or naval aviation squadron typically consists of three or four flights, with a total of 12 to 24 aircraft, depending on aircraft type and air force.
An escadron (the French word for squadron) is another word for a cavalry division. For a long time, an escadron corresponded to a battalion, uniting several companies. Since the mid 20th century, an escadron has been the equivalent of a single company (typicall 13-tank strong)
Just use the green channel to talk to your "skwad".
wrongway
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Historically:
Just use the green channel to talk to your "skwad".
wrongway
Or, pick a number and have everyone tuning, squeaking, talking, whording on the same channel?!!!! Who'da thunk it?
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Having up to 64 for a squadron in the Special events arena would be a tad more helpful.
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He just wants to be like te Claimjumpers..........:P hahahaha
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Having up to 64 for a squadron in the Special events arena would be a tad more helpful.
Special events is another story. If the ability to able/disable was an arena setting? All for it.
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. Mega sqauders have already found a way around the 32 player max by just tuning to a common channel.
And that should be addressed also.
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what about a possible "linking" of squads, where they would still only contain 32 players max but you could "link" or "ally" with another squad so all of the members to both squads use the same red squad channel and they ALL show up when you do .sr
make a Mission for the other squad to join yours in.....voile', instant allies!
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i'm digging your sig vonkrimm :aok
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I agree with the fugitive. The 82nd has only about 10 active members, but we're on often and together. We're more like family than a squad.
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The TFC has 32 members (some not active) We are spread across all 4 time zones and still manage to fly together. 115 members and 13 wings are not required, or more than AH squad channel.
But some love the horde...
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81st Has a mega-squad, LCA has a mega-squad. Oh, lets not forget the CLAM HUMPERS. SUPER-MEGA-GIGANTIC-SQUAD.
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There is a natural maximum in squad size. I have been tracking Claim Jumper active membership for a while now. In the last 14 tours, CJs active in a given tour ranged from 86 to 106. To maintain such a mass, there has been a lot of new guys, and a lot of turnover. There have been something like 300 people active for at least one tour. Only 19 have been active in each of the last 14 tours. I agree that we can consolidate down to fewer wings, but it doesn't really affect anything, gamewise.
In my opinion, the natural upper limits to a squad size are the limited number of 'serious' players who will stick with the game, the diminishing access to the squad frequency as more guys log on, the inevitability of internal conflicts, and the inability to develop good wingman tactics. Of all the CJs, I can count on maybe three to be reliable wingmen.
Large squads are not the best answer. A good tight squad is a better force multiplier.
With all of this said, I am a CJ as long as the squad exists. I chafe at the arrogance and clique-ishness of many of the squads out there.
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There is a natural maximum in squad size. I have been tracking Claim Jumper active membership for a while now. In the last 14 tours, CJs active in a given tour ranged from 86 to 106. To maintain such a mass, there has been a lot of new guys, and a lot of turnover. There have been something like 300 people active for at least one tour. Only 19 have been active in each of the last 14 tours. I agree that we can consolidate down to fewer wings, but it doesn't really affect anything, gamewise.
In my opinion, the natural upper limits to a squad size are the limited number of 'serious' players who will stick with the game, the diminishing access to the squad frequency as more guys log on, the inevitability of internal conflicts, and the inability to develop good wingman tactics. Of all the CJs, I can count on maybe three to be reliable wingmen.
Large squads are not the best answer. A good tight squad is a better force multiplier.
With all of this said, I am a CJ as long as the squad exists. I chafe at the arrogance and clique-ishness of many of the squads out there.
I guess my question after reading this is, and I'm not mocking anyone when I ask "Why have that many people then?"
To me, the reason for a squad (and this seems to be backed up by the responses in this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261234.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261234.0.html)) is the friendships and relationships that develop and improve the game experience. After all it is the human components both protagonists and antagonists that keeps people coming back for more.
With that in mind I think there get's to be a critical mass in a squad where that begins to fall apart. Which can be caused by a number of factors, time zones differences, play time, or sheer numbers, at some point a group get's to be so big that one person simply can't develop that relationship with everyone in the group based on one or all of these factors.
Once that starts to happen what is the point in adding more people to the mix?
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I guess my question after reading this is, and I'm not mocking anyone when I ask "Why have that many people then?"
To me, the reason for a squad (and this seems to be backed up by the responses in this thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261234.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,261234.0.html)) is the friendships and relationships that develop and improve the game experience. After all it is the human components both protagonists and antagonists that keeps people coming back for more.
With that in mind I think there get's to be a critical mass in a squad where that begins to fall apart. Which can be caused by a number of factors, time zones differences, play time, or sheer numbers, at some point a group get's to be so big that one person simply can't develop that relationship with everyone in the group based on one or all of these factors.
Once that starts to happen what is the point in adding more people to the mix?
:salute Soulyss for the reasoned response.
The direct answer to "what is the point" is that it is the founder's prerogative. An unsatisfying answer, I know.
From my own experience in a so called "mega" squad, there are parallels to the replacement system in the US Army in WW2. When first encountering a new guy, one wonders how long he will last.
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If this were an FPS or RPG game, I could understand a large squad...40 - 60 people in a clan isn't unusual for some FPS or RPG games...even then unless you all live in the same trailer park, having more than say 10 on at the same time doesn't generally happen...even when school is out. If you're thinking about voice comms, everyone can kick in together and get a dedicated teamspeak server.
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werent most squads in WWII composed of 4 to 8 max?
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Its the huge squads like CJ and BOPS ect ect, that give the new guys the complete wrong idea, that its cool to dogpile a single con with 5-10 crap even more then that, its straight up lame, hurts game play and killz fun for those who actually like to fight.
you get it in your heads, that because we have so many we are deadly :rofl wrong you are a horde nothing more. being in one of those "type" squads makes you a worse player.
my $.02 cents
don't like it...... :cry
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I'm not in the ClaimJumpers because they are huge.
They are good guys and fun.
I am also in there because I am not on in primetime and when I do fly there are always a few guys to fly with.
I don't care about the huge missions but any 25 to 30 member squad could do the same and like someone else said, anyone could do the same by posting a mission.
In the furball I haven't noticed any worse ganging behavior with my guys than anyone else.
You fly alone into 10 enemy cons you should probably expect to be attacked by 10 enemy cons, whether they are all from the same squad or not.
As far as the OP's wish, doesn't seem like it is necessary or be of much benefit, IMO.
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My newest quote, I just wish I had room in my sig for it.
As long as (the horde squads) are willing to recruit anyone with a CPID and a hardpoint underneath each wing, the game will continue to deteriorate.
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My squad has somewhere around 60 members and I know each of them as individuals, they are all good friends. It has taken over 6 years to grow that size. At first there was only a small group of us, about 10. Then slowly we found new members who fit in well and got to know them all. As it stands now the average members online is between 4-6 and sometimes reaches as high as 10-15 at one time. All we ever really do is fly fighters with the occasional bomber formation or jabo mission. Not interested in taking bases at all. We much prefer to hold air superiority of a sector away from the bases if we have a good turn out at the weekends. Just in it for the fun and to laugh with some buddies when we play AH.
Each and every one of them is a class act and I would never want to change a thing about it. I could count on every single one of them to stick it out with me to the death in any dogfight..
The size of the squad roster does not automaticaly make the horde. It's the mentality of the players that make a horde.
:salute
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Back to the OP, the 32 member limit has been worked around.
On the topic of hordes, they are going to happen, with or without 'mega squads.'
On the topic of the Claim Jumpers, it is not a monolith. If one would take the time to observe carefully, it is not often that 10 CJs operate together on a mission. People have left the squad because we hanven't horded enough. Having 5-10 red guys on one's tail does not mean they are all in a large squad. It means one guy got himself in trouble, and 4-9 guys are trying to steal a kill.
On the topic of civility, I am not going to be baited by flamers anymore. It is not fear. It is an attempt at reason.
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I have an idea.
Anyone can check the roster to see how many ClaimJumpers are on.
Even an NOE raid flashes a base crossing the dar ring.
A small percentage of the time spent complaining on the forum could be put to use developing a counter-horde, anti-ClaimJumper strategy.
A few guys take turns scouting flashing bases for horde raids.
You need very little climbing time to meet an NOE force, if you are willing to fight without a huge alt advantage.
With so many like minded CJ haters, it should be easy to marshal a large force against them.
It could arguably be a more realistic strategy game of one side trying to figure where the other was going to strike next and trying to deploy quickly enough to stop them, and lead to some epic co-alt clashes.
There ya go!
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I have an idea.
Anyone can check the roster to see how many ClaimJumpers are on.
Even an NOE raid flashes a base crossing the dar ring.
A small percentage of the time spent complaining on the forum could be put to use developing a counter-horde, anti-ClaimJumper strategy.
A few guys take turns scouting flashing bases for horde raids.
You need very little climbing time to meet an NOE force, if you are willing to fight without a huge alt advantage.
With so many like minded CJ haters, it should be easy to marshal a large force against them.
It could arguably be a more realistic strategy game of one side trying to figure where the other was going to strike next and trying to deploy quickly enough to stop them, and lead to some epic co-alt clashes.
There ya go!
Wouldn't "marshaling a large force" constitute becoming a Borg - err Claim Jumpers-like horde? Not falling for that one. ;)
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Wouldn't "marshaling a large force" constitute becoming a Borg - err Claim Jumpers-like horde? Not falling for that one. ;)
Depends on how you look at it.
Could be just getting a group together to quickly defend an airfield.
You probably have enough available just from the bbs "Flame the ClaimJumpers Horde." LOL
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My squad has somewhere around 60 members and I know each of them as individuals, they are all good friends. It has taken over 6 years to grow that size. At first there was only a small group of us, about 10. Then slowly we found new members who fit in well and got to know them all. As it stands now the average members online is between 4-6 and sometimes reaches as high as 10-15 at one time. All we ever really do is fly fighters with the occasional bomber formation or jabo mission. Not interested in taking bases at all. We much prefer to hold air superiority of a sector away from the bases if we have a good turn out at the weekends. Just in it for the fun and to laugh with some buddies when we play AH.
Each and every one of them is a class act and I would never want to change a thing about it. I could count on every single one of them to stick it out with me to the death in any dogfight..
The size of the squad roster does not automaticaly make the horde. It's the mentality of the players that make a horde.
:salute
The key here is your Squad is more then one. There aren't 60 members in a squad as it's limited to 32. It would be better if it was 71, 121 and 133 then you'd play the history with 3 squads :aok As is it's 2 squads named the same thing
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I have an idea.
Anyone can check the roster to see how many ClaimJumpers are on.
Even an NOE raid flashes a base crossing the dar ring.
A small percentage of the time spent complaining on the forum could be put to use developing a counter-horde, anti-ClaimJumper strategy.
A few guys take turns scouting flashing bases for horde raids.
You need very little climbing time to meet an NOE force, if you are willing to fight without a huge alt advantage.
With so many like minded CJ haters, it should be easy to marshal a large force against them.
It could arguably be a more realistic strategy game of one side trying to figure where the other was going to strike next and trying to deploy quickly enough to stop them, and lead to some epic co-alt clashes.
There ya go!
I don't have a problem with large squads, I have a problem with how they run missions.
Having 30+ guys hitting one base is a waste of resources, and kills the fun for both the attacking team as well as the defending team. Building a mission has two purposes, completing a mission objective, and two.... and I think the more important one... to have fun. How much fun is it for players 20 thru 30 of that bunch? If the first 19 have any skill at all, the town is down, VH is down, and the field is deacked and is most likely abandoned due to the vulch light being lite. So the last 10 guy circle doing nothing WOW !!! loads of fun there !
Building and leading a mission, it's your responsibility to have a good plan, work to get it executed well, and to make it fun, for both sides. Running a mission is basically running a mini senario, it should be fun for both sides, it is a game after all. Nobody really dies, and the base you captured tonight will be milked back in the morning :D
As the CO of a big squad (20-25 people for a squad night was normal) my job was to make missions that worked, or at least had a shot at working, and were fun. We didn't have everyone hit one base, capture unresisted and move on to the next one, what kind of fun is that? We did 11 bases in 2 hours one night ...big deal. I knew how many bombs it took to flatten a town, figuring my guys hit at 75% percent that how many I took. If we didn't hit at an average of 75% we didn't get it. It pushed everyone to work harder at doing their job the best they could and when we did it right there was pride in accomplishing the mission. We KNEW we could use everyone on one base and take it, but that was just too easy. Working for it was always more fun.
Also by not having EVERYBODY hitting the same base it made it fun for the defenders because it gave them the illusion they could stop us :devil and some times they did, but not to often.
Todays "mega-squads" pool all of their resources into one hit. Sure they can overwhelm a base, but its only due to their numbers. Most don't have the skill to work in smaller groups and hide behind those numbers. Defenders also avoid fighting them because unless your one of the top "uber" players your not going to last long going against 3,4,5 to 1 odds, even against a bunch of skilless players.
This why so many say that this kind of game play is killing the game. Skill level is going down, and horde numbers continue to grow. Why learn how to play better when you can have 3 of your buddies follow behind you to finish off the target you missed? Why learn to fight if you can HO and "win" half the time? If these mega-squads only used what should be needed if all goes well to accomplish the mission. their teammates would get better so they wouldn't "let their squadmates down" and defenders might defend.
Someone posted about a big TT bomber mission. Who cares? You want to impress me, you want to run a good mission? Instead of 40 bomber formations all rolling in and hitting strat one time, have a group of 10 followed 30 minutes later by another group of 10, followed again 30 minutes later by another group of 10, and 30 minutes later the last 10. How much can you take down with 10??? How long can you KEEP it down with the next 10 and so on? That takes skill, timing. Creates a challange for both sides, creates fun for both sides. See what I mean?
There is nothing really wrong with a mega-squad as long as it does NOT contribute to the decline in game play. Use those numbers to encrouge more fights, more battles, more fun !
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I don't have a problem with large squads, I have a problem with how they run missions.
I am not for or against any of the arguments in this thread Fugi, but i just thought this bit of your post was the most profound. If you don't like how people play the game, it is your problem. Just pointing this out, not arguing about mega squads or gameplay or anything. Just pointing out who has the problem. Your enjoyment of the game might increase if you refrain from having problems that you cannot control.
S!
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The key here is your Squad is more then one. There aren't 60 members in a squad as it's limited to 32. It would be better if it was 71, 121 and 133 then you'd play the history with 3 squads :aok As is it's 2 squads named the same thing
No, it is not, it is one squad. Please don't presume to tell us what would be better for us.
S!
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No, it is not, it is one squad. Please don't presume to tell us what would be better for us.
S!
Don't misunderstand me. It's up to you how you call it. My point was that squads are limited to 32, so to have 60 members you need more then one squad.
I didn't make the limit, but I recognize it :)
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I am not for or against any of the arguments in this thread Fugi, but i just thought this bit of your post was the most profound. If you don't like how people play the game, it is your problem. Just pointing this out, not arguing about mega squads or gameplay or anything. Just pointing out who has the problem. Your enjoyment of the game might increase if you refrain from having problems that you cannot control.
S!
I don't see why you would quote that out of my post, seeing as everyone here is posting their opinions as I did. I don't let the hordes bother my enjoyment, I just play less than I use to because there just aren't that many good fights anymore. I still have my fun, and like golf you always get that one great shot that makes you come back and play another round. If all you got out of my post is "how I don't like how others play the game" I think you really missed the point.
Basically all I was pointing out.... as many others have pointed out is the "horde" is killing game play. I made a few suggestions as to what a mega-squad might do to avoid becoming a horde. Either we can play like we are all 500lbs bombs, or we can play like we are a nuke. A bunch of 500lbs bombs can get the job done as long as they are used skillfully, or we can just sling around a bunch of nukes until there is nothing left. Which way would be more fun in the long run?
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The 479th is going to go on a massive recruiting drive. Our target is to increase our squadron ranks by 100% by April and if it succeeds, we should have 12 members. Beware AH, a new mega-squadron is coming your way soon! MUHAHAHAHAHA! MUHAHAHAHA!
ack-ack
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Don't misunderstand me. It's up to you how you call it. My point was that squads are limited to 32, so to have 60 members you need more then one squad.
I didn't make the limit, but I recognize it :)
To me it would not matter if there was no such thing as squads in the game, the group of uf who enjoy each others company would still fly together. You may be correct that there is a limit of 32 players but that is purely semantics. We fly as one squad, all part of the same thing. We do not have a negative affect on gameplay (infact alot of people would say we have a possitive one) so whats the big deal with us calling ourself one squad or two?
The point im trying to make is that being part of a large squad is not 'destroying gameplay' it is the attitude of individuals or of groups of individuals however large or small that is having a negative impact.
I don't see why you would quote that out of my post, seeing as everyone here is posting their opinions as I did. I don't let the hordes bother my enjoyment, I just play less than I use to because there just aren't that many good fights anymore. I still have my fun, and like golf you always get that one great shot that makes you come back and play another round. If all you got out of my post is "how I don't like how others play the game" I think you really missed the point.
Basically all I was pointing out.... as many others have pointed out is the "horde" is killing game play. I made a few suggestions as to what a mega-squad might do to avoid becoming a horde. Either we can play like we are all 500lbs bombs, or we can play like we are a nuke. A bunch of 500lbs bombs can get the job done as long as they are used skillfully, or we can just sling around a bunch of nukes until there is nothing left. Which way would be more fun in the long run?
Sure I understand exactly what you are saying. I was just quoting the most profound part of your previous post, that the problem is 'yours' and that if the people you are complaining about are having fun in what they do then no ammount of postulating is ever going to get your world view to stick with them. Again please note I am speaking as a devil's advocate and not as someone who enjoys steam rolling undefended bases or fighting in 10-1 odds in my favour. All I am saying is that you are wasting your time in this crusade to 'save aces high' because people are going to do what they enjoy, and clearly some of us enjoy taking bases by any means possible. My advice to everyone in your possition is stop making it your problem and get on with what you enjoy.
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To me it would not matter if there was no such thing as squads in the game, the group of uf who enjoy each others company would still fly together. You may be correct that there is a limit of 32 players but that is purely semantics. We fly as one squad, all part of the same thing. We do not have a negative affect on gameplay (infact alot of people would say we have a possitive one) so whats the big deal with us calling ourself one squad or two?
The point im trying to make is that being part of a large squad is not 'destroying gameplay' it is the attitude of individuals or of groups of individuals however large or small that is having a negative impact.
I'm looking at it more from a historical standpoint, in particular with squads that are based on a historical identity. That was why I mentioned 121 and 133 Squadrons. The Eagle Squadrons combined barely had 60 pilots together at any one time.
In terms of the rest of the discussion, there is a valid concern about groups that just pile on the numbers to create a horde. I imagine that is why there is a squad number limit, because it does get abused. Obviously folks are working around it and in many cases it can be detrimental to game play. The obvious example being the "squad' that has 10 squads under the same name with 122 players out of a potential 320. Seems a bit silly.
There I was flying with 320 of my closest friends! :)
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I do see your point with regard to history, i geuss we didnt think it through at the time. I also see what you're saying and I think it correlates exactly to my previous quote here:
The point im trying to make is that being part of a large squad is not 'destroying gameplay' it is the attitude of individuals or of groups of individuals however large or small that is having a negative impact.
So we may be disagreeing from the same viewpoint. :lol
Please consider this:
No matter if it is a squadron with 120 players or just 120 unattatched players working together, it is the attitude of those individuals that is detrimental. The affiliation of the squad is purely a consequence of like minded people flocking together, not the flocking together causing the attitude.
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The obvious example being the "squad' that has 10 squads under the same name with 122 players out of a potential 320. Seems a bit silly.
Of those 122 players, some only fly during the daytime hours, and the most I have ever seen online during prime time is about 20 or so, certainly less than 32.
So if all were disbanded, and a single wing of only the most active 32 players was kept, what would be the difference?
The number of wings/squads with the same name seems irrelevant.
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Of those 122 players, some only fly during the daytime hours, and the most I have ever seen online during prime time is about 20 or so, certainly less than 32.
So if all were disbanded, and a single wing of only the most active 32 players was kept, what would be the difference?
The number of wings/squads with the same name seems irrelevant.
And completely unnecessary
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I have an idea.
A few guys take turns scouting flashing bases for horde raids.
I'd rather not, that is boring. Granted, not all the time spent by historical aviators was 'entertaining', but I log on to fly/fight and not to hunt down a group that is playing 'hide and go seek'.
I'm not very good in AH but flying around in the NOE base taking horde will really limit your ability to flower any proper stick skills. Last night alone, we pushed a certain horde squad from the base they attacked and all the way back to theirs. Before the fight went south on the horde squad, I was routinely turning inside Spit16 while carrying a full load of fuel. Not because I am any good but because these guys rely on someone else to help them any time they get something behind their 3-9 line.
However, two guys in the area were very good and gave me a good run for my money. Guess what, they weren't part of a squad that had more than one wing.
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In 1996 I inherited the Red Barons in Air Warrior about three days after I joined when the founding CO withdrew and handed me the squad. At the time I took over the squad was about 6-10 people. In less than a year we had grown to over sixty formed into 3-4 wings (I actually can't remember anymore).
On squad night the best we ever got was just over 20 people. That always seemed like a dissapointment to me but given it was AW those were some pretty big numbers. Still, given it was AW many of our squaddies were riding gun positions on B-17's which is why I always hoped for bigger numbers on squad nights.
The plus side to this big squad was that no matter what time of day or night you logged on there was always a squaddie to fly with and yes, I knew every one of them.
The downside was that there was constant churning of the players and, at times, it was a bit like cat hearding but that was OK. I just needed to implement an efficient leadership organization and a grievance policy to keep personality clashes (cat fights) to a minimum (mostly our squeeker element... but they were mostly good kids).
Everyone joined the squad at the lowest rank (airman) and, based on performance and reliability worked their way up the rankings. We had a lot of recognition programs. Every month I'd manually calculate things like K/D, K/S and other stats that AW didn't keep track of (we had a fighter pilot who was always in the 6-9 range in K/D and K/S but for the life of me I can't remember his handle... think it started with a Q) and send an e-mail to every member recapping the month and rewarding those who performed well with a trophy (with their name and accomplishment) on our web-site. I like to think HT stole this (the stat keeping) from me.
Because skill levels varied from advanced to noob we weren't nessesarily that efficient all the time but we always had fun and isn't that the point? There's still people from that squad I miss winging with in fighters or riding gun for or having them ride gun for me in a bomber.
There's plusses and minuses to a big squad but in general I don't think sheer numbers are nessesarily a bad thing.
To a few of my long lost squaddies (^RDog, ^Lion, ^Peye, ^egl7, ^Ritz (still here), ^1Way (still here) and others too numerous to mention), <S>, I'll always cherish my time as CO of the Red Barons.
^Crsh
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I don't know what to tell ya then.
I usually fly off prime time hours with a smaller group of Claim Jumpers, so I don't care much either way.
You could petition HTC to get the rules changed, or like I suggested, devise tactics to counter the horde, avoid em and fly a different portion of the map, etc.
Anything would be a better use of time than having this same argument over and over again.
:salute
jimson
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And I will say point blank I believe MEGA squads are bad for the game.
HiTech
:aok
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To me it would not matter if there was no such thing as squads in the game, the group of uf who enjoy each others company would still fly together. You may be correct that there is a limit of 32 players but that is purely semantics. We fly as one squad, all part of the same thing. We do not have a negative affect on gameplay (infact alot of people would say we have a possitive one) so whats the big deal with us calling ourself one squad or two?
The point im trying to make is that being part of a large squad is not 'destroying gameplay' it is the attitude of individuals or of groups of individuals however large or small that is having a negative impact.
This is what I'm saying, large squads are capable of having either a positive effect...like yours... or a negative effect. The squads that have the negative effect are those that are slowly destroying game play with horde tactics.
Sure I understand exactly what you are saying. I was just quoting the most profound part of your previous post, that the problem is 'yours' and that if the people you are complaining about are having fun in what they do then no ammount of postulating is ever going to get your world view to stick with them. Again please note I am speaking as a devil's advocate and not as someone who enjoys steam rolling undefended bases or fighting in 10-1 odds in my favour. All I am saying is that you are wasting your time in this crusade to 'save aces high' because people are going to do what they enjoy, and clearly some of us enjoy taking bases by any means possible. My advice to everyone in your possition is stop making it your problem and get on with what you enjoy.
On one hand your saying you DON"T enjoy horde tactic, and then before you end the paragraph you say you will use ANY tactic to grab a base, including horde tactics? Make up your mind :D
Remember these are not just MY points of view, but the same views posted by many folks on these boards. I'm not trying to foster off "my world view" on anyone, all I'm doing is suggesting ways of adding fun to squad play. BaldEagl posted about "rewards" he did for his squad. Great idea! It adds more fun, another challenge, and wait for it......... a training ground to increase the over all skill of the squad, and there by the community ! The problem with the big squads today is they don't want to spend the time to train, they would much rather look for a work around to avoid a skilled opponent instead of getting more skilled themselves to over come that opponent.
I'm not saying ALL big squads are like this, however those that do fit this mold are getting to be the majority, and the good squads that train and are respected are getting to be the minority. If the trend continues it will again start to effect HTC's bottom line. What do you think will happen then? These squads have it in there power to shape the game play in a large portion of the map. It's up to them to decide if its a positive effect, or a negative one. Positive ones will be rewarded with better game play and more fun for all, negative ones will bring in HTC and his big stick. ...just saying.
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Dan and Fugi, excellent posts.
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There is a few questions I have.
One-If people like to fly in a horde and do so why is that a problem?
Two-Why do people post as if the sky is falling due to large squads?
Three-How does someone else being better or worse at the game effect your enjoyment of the game?
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I will concede that there are many things I would like to change about my squad.
I am not the CO however.
There is a movement within to have better training and practice sessions, mostly for ACM.
This is a positive development, and one of the reasons to be in a squad in the first place.
As long as captures are an objective of the game, there will be those that seek to accomplish it in any way possible.
Arguably it is more realistic than limiting what you do for some make it more fun for the other side purpose, although I understand that.
I absolutely hate to be vulched, but no pilot would have allowed an enemy threat a chance to take off if he could prevent it in WW2.
Recognizing that it is a game, I refuse to vulch and when I see others do it, I suggest they don't.
One of the most popular types of game play are scenarios and FSO. No one seems to mind the "meet the objective in any way aspect" there, but something different seems to be expected in the MA.
I truly don't have much regard for the MA, the whole "every countries plane enabled for anyone on any side" is not my cup of tea. To me that pretty much makes it an "anything goes" arena.
I much prefer the immersive set ups of the scenarios or AvA.
My squad isn't as monolithic as some seem to think, some of us rarely fly the big base dumping missions and the squad does many other things. We fly in AvA, we have begun participating in the dueling league. Snapshots, FSO, even in the MA we often concentrate on base defense or run fighter sweeps.
In any case, I think it is crappy and a waste of time to constantly call out a squad for being a horde, even to the point of invading their every thread, of any kind, to flame them. Being a bbs flaming horde isn't any better.
I still think that half the effort spent complaining that the CJ's ruin everyone's fun, spent using some quick deployment counter horde tactics would lead to some terrific CO-ALT battles.
It could be fun, strategic game play. One side trying to figure where the other one will strike next and moving quickly enough to stop it.
:salute
jimson
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I will concede that there are many things I would like to change about my squad.
…
My squad isn't as monolithic as some seem to think, some of us rarely fly the big base dumping missions and the squad does many other things. We fly in AvA, we have begun participating in the dueling league. Snapshots, FSO, even in the MA we often concentrate on base defense or run fighter sweeps.
In any case, I think it is crappy and a waste of time to constantly call out a squad for being a horde, even to the point of invading their every thread, of any kind, to flame them. Being a bbs flaming horde isn't any better.
:salute A sincere attempt at expressing a valid opinion.
Unfortunately, the opposing camp will not consider that there are different ways to have fun.
Is there real data that supports the statement that large squads "are slowly destroying game play with horde tactics?" No one, not even a Claim Jumper like me, wants to destroy game play.
Recently, another large set of squads were running bases. I was on defense with a few green guys, one or two of which were squad mates. The chess match aspect of trying to counter their next move was enjoyable. A horde can actually increase fun.
There are many possible game actions that can be said to ‘ruin game play. Spying is an example. If two guys are so inclined, one can easily report missions to an enemy. Last night, as a test, a CJ mission was posted and announced. It was a rather dull 6 or 7 sector hail mary NOE. It was to see if we were being 'ratted' out. As it turns out, a Typhie ups before we break dar and greets us on the way in. I have my suspicions that some horde hating zealot griefed the mission. The mission was only a dozen or so guys, half of which were non CJs. Some horde.
Pardon the ramble. My point is that fun, ruining fun, even the definition of 'horde' is in the eye of the beholder.
99% of horde monkeys do not set out to ruin game play.
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There is a few questions I have.
One-If people like to fly in a horde and do so why is that a problem?
Two reasons I can think of up front, first they are limiting themselves. By limiting themselves to hide in the horde they will most likely never get much better at the game and will be frustrated more often due to more skilled players defeating them. Also they are limiting the fun they can have. Being the last guy to the fight means you have bombs but no target, and the vulch is over with no defenders to fight.... why did you spend 15 minutes to get there?
Second, by flying in a horde you are killing the fun of others. Picture yourself on the receiving end, how much fun is it really? Sure some will defend against the horde, but in the end it just isn't worth the frustration so many say why bother. In doing so your horde no longer has anyone to fight against, limiting the fun for the horde, and the defenders are off looking for fun some place else taking away part of the map that is no longer fun.
Two-Why do people post as if the sky is falling due to large squads?
Because it IS the down fall of good game play... see HT's quote HERE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,257564.msg3192109.html#msg3192109)
Moot is 100% correct about why squad limits exist.They exist because group dynamics change when not everyone in one group know each other. And I will say point blank I believe MEGA squads are bad for the game.
HiTech
DO you know what one of the major reason we got a split MA arena? Do to the population growth in the MA some squads continued to recruit players going against the 32 limit rule and grew into mega squads. This created times were it would be 3 hordes on the map all carefully avoiding each other trying to back door bases faster than the other hordes to win the war. A lot of people didn't like that type of game play and subscriptions started to be canceled at a big enough rate that HTC stepped in to try a halt the hordes and other poor game play that the large arena population was generating.
The sky may not be falling, but IF the arenas continue into the downward spiral they seem to be on now, who's to say what steps HTC may have to take next.
Three-How does someone else being better or worse at the game effect your enjoyment of the game?
Someone being better or worst doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game at all. If they are better I work to improve, if they are worst, they have to work to improve, but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Skill is a by-product of the horde. The bigger the squad the less skilled it has to be to accomplish the same objectives. 8 players hitting a base have to be much better at bombing and fighting than a group of 30. Hordes just generate less skill. Then those players can not step out of that shadow because it become very frustrating for them to do anything WITHOUT the horde because there skill level is so low.
I will concede that there are many things I would like to change about my squad.
I am not the CO however.
There is a movement within to have better training and practice sessions, mostly for ACM.
This is a positive development, and one of the reasons to be in a squad in the first place.
As long as captures are an objective of the game, there will be those that seek to accomplish it in any way possible.
Arguably it is more realistic than limiting what you do for some make it more fun for the other side purpose, although I understand that.
<snip>
:salute
jimson
Great post Jimson, I snipped it to make room but left the part I want to talk about. It's great that your squad is talking about moving toward training and such.
I'm not saying this strait to you and your squad, but to everyone in a squad, but this in my opinion is where a squad makes the transition from "squeeker squad" to one that may last and become a respected squad. Don't just talk about it, push for it, make it happen. If it doesn't happen you might want to ask yourself is that the kind of squad you want to be in. If not, join one that does have a good training program, or make your own. People shouldn't join a squad because it has a cool name. Make your squad a worthy opponent. Make your squad a fearsome group in the arenas NOT because you can throw more numbers at a target, but because your skills get you what others NEED numbers to do.
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One of the most popular types of game play are scenarios and FSO. No one seems to mind the "meet the objective in any way aspect" there, but something different seems to be expected in the MA.
I don't think you guys get expectations as far as the FSO is concerned either.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283670.0.html
You might want to make sure you get a copy of the e-mail Dadog mentions before going on anymore about how misunderstood you guys are.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283690.0.html
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we have begun participating in the dueling league.
Not to nitpick or anything but i'm still awaiting 3 or 4 named BBS contacts from flifast, so that I can add you to the private dueling league forum.
You had a one off custom match against the jokers that I know of but that was outside the realms of the SDL and not played under the same rules.
For a large squadron like the claim jumpers it should be very easy to field a minimum of 6 pilots and I would welcome the extra activity that you guys would bring to the SDL.
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I don't think you guys get expectations as far as the FSO is concerned either.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283670.0.html
You might want to make sure you get a copy of the e-mail Dadog mentions before going on anymore about how misunderstood you guys are.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283690.0.html
Have I mentioned there are a lot of things I'd like to change about my squad?
Seriously, this isn't what you would like too see while you are in the middle of defending your guys.
I must confess I truly didn't understand the ramifications of this, only that there were enmy strats in our area and that nothing said hitting them was forbidden, it just wouldn't count for anything.
All I can do is offer a personal "mea culpa" for my participation in that.
My mistake Bruv, I thought it was further along than that.
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This is what I'm saying, large squads are capable of having either a positive effect...like yours... or a negative effect. The squads that have the negative effect are those that are slowly destroying game play with horde tactics.
Ok, i see what you're getting at there. My only argument is that a large squad roster does not automatically equate a horde mentality.
On one hand your saying you DON"T enjoy horde tactic, and then before you end the paragraph you say you will use ANY tactic to grab a base, including horde tactics? Make up your mind :D
unless you're joking i think you misunderstood me. I said 'some of us'. This refers to the entire AH community and not to myself.
Remember these are not just MY points of view, but the same views posted by many folks on these boards. I'm not trying to foster off "my world view" on anyone, all I'm doing is suggesting ways of adding fun to squad play. BaldEagl posted about "rewards" he did for his squad. Great idea! It adds more fun, another challenge, and wait for it......... a training ground to increase the over all skill of the squad, and there by the community ! The problem with the big squads today is they don't want to spend the time to train, they would much rather look for a work around to avoid a skilled opponent instead of getting more skilled themselves to over come that opponent.
I'm not saying ALL big squads are like this, however those that do fit this mold are getting to be the majority, and the good squads that train and are respected are getting to be the minority. If the trend continues it will again start to effect HTC's bottom line. What do you think will happen then? These squads have it in there power to shape the game play in a large portion of the map. It's up to them to decide if its a positive effect, or a negative one. Positive ones will be rewarded with better game play and more fun for all, negative ones will bring in HTC and his big stick. ...just saying.
gotcha! :aok