Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: juzz on May 17, 2000, 08:58:00 PM
-
Plane Perks. For version 1.04, we will be introducing a new system to AH that will allow players to earn the right to fly certain late-war high performance aircraft that we otherwise would not put in the game due to balance issues.
Any jet/rocket aircraft obviously fits into this category. Eg: Me 262, Me 163 and Meteor.
The trouble starts with the prop fighters. Which planes fit the category of "late-war high performance aircraft"?
Fw 190D-9? Ta 152H?
F8F Bearcat?
Spitfire Mk XIV? F.21?
Etc...
Believe it or not, there are "uber" bombers too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mosquito B.XVI?
B-29?
Ar 234?
Ju 88S-3?
Etc....
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 05-17-2000).]
-
Hmm, I'd say number of planes produced/in combat would be better criteria.
D-9 should be available to everyone. He 162 should't.
Hey, that puts cannon Hog into uber category too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 05-17-2000).]
-
what about the spitfire XIV?
would you want to see an arena full of those?
-
Of course Cit.
Spit XIV doesn't do anything the Me 109G-10 can't do, except turn a little better.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-17-2000).]
-
hmmm, i think:
spit14 is:
faster
climbs better
rolls better
turns better
better armed......
i forgot something?
------------------
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habicht.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by HABICHT (edited 05-18-2000).]
-
Actually, I believe 109K advantages over Spit XIV from WB are:
- better acceleration
- better climb at low and medium alt
- faster at all altitudes
- better dive acceleration and dive speed retention
- MW 50 with its longer boost time
The real question is, do we have equivalent of 109K in our G-10 ?
-
If all uber planes are foing to be the same price, we will never get an RAF plane with an advantage. When the Spit XIV shows up it will have to deal with P47N, Ta152 and P51H, all planes which came out a year or more later. Even the Tempest is being labeled uber, even though it would fit in nicely with the current plane set.
How about some of the true RAF uber rides, like the Spiteful, Fury etc?
-
Yes Hristo we do. Except maybe for a few mph less top end, because the K-4 had a retractable tailwheel and inner gear doors.
The Typhoon IB has 485 kills and has been killed 459 times.
The F4U-1C has 6765 kills and has been killed 3553 times.
The F4U-1D has 305 kills and has been killed 545 times.
The Typhoon has more low-level speed, a better 6 view and the same mighty guns as the F4U-1C, yet it appears to be flown about as much as the F4U-1D. Somehow I don't think the Tempest Mk V would make much of an impact on the gameplay balance in AH. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 05-18-2000).]
-
x2
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 05-18-2000).]
-
We put all the planes in a hangar. Then we blindfold Torque, and send him in. The first plane he touches is labeled "uber". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
popeye
-
Careful Nashwan or you will shoot yourself in the foot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
There were about 700 Spit XIV's if I remember right. There were 1,500 P-47N's. And they both served quite a bit in combat. So I wouldnt' start to lump it into the "Super Uber" category just yet.
Guys I expect P-47N's, Spit XIV's, Yak-3's, La7's, and several others I've seen mentioned to fit into the "normal arena" category.
Personally I expect the "Super Uber's" to be Jets, and aircraft that never really saw combat. P-51H's, Bearcats, TigerCats, Ta-152H1's, La9's, Yak-3P's, FG-2 SuperCorsairs, and such as that.
But we gotta wait and see. It will certainly prove interesting either way.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Agree with Vermillion.
Spitfire XIV, FW190D-9 and Tempest V along with P47N, Yak-3 and La-7 would be equlising themselfs if they are introduced more or less simultanusly to the "regular" planset.
Since the MA isn't historically Alled vs Axis all those above would make not so much differnace if introduced at least in pairs.
PS
D-9 production was 1805.(according to Rodeike)
Ta-152 even "produced" an ace,Josef Keil, 5 kills in Ta-152. DS
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Nattulv
Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
[This message has been edited by LLv34 Nattulv (edited 05-18-2000).]
-
simply introduce a RPS, and all this "uber" talk is gone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
ibreh
II./JG2 Richthofen
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
-
Yeah but alot of people really hate the concept of a RPS, and even though I use to support it, I am starting to see their point.
To each his own I guess. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
FYI At one point, HT stated that he wasn't going to add a RPS to AH, but that was a long time ago.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
I'm usually good at shooting myself in the foot, but:
Spit XIV 997 built, first flew Aug43, entered service Jan44
P47N, 1800 built, entered service when, Spring 45? Sounds like an end of war plane to me, and later than everything we currently have apart from the F4U-1c.
Of course in pure numbers the US planes will almost always win, but I think the in service date is more important. The Spit XIV saw a lot of use over Europe in 44 and 45, how much action did the 47N actually see?
-
In Europe Nashwan? None. But WWII wasn't just Europe. The P-47N saw action of Japan flying out of Iwo Shima. The spring of 1945 was NOT the end of the war for quite a bit of the world. It was in Europe but considering there were hostilites right up til September of 1945 in the Pacific I'd say a plane introduced by the USAAF in spring of 1945 is just 'latter war' period, not 'end war.
-Westy
-
Do not forget 262. It should be regular plane. Some 1400 built, heavy action from summer 1944, to the bitter end.
But you know that already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
I never suggested the war was only in Europe. What I was trying to say is it's a bit unfair to keep comparing every RAF plane introduced after the summer of 42 with planes introduced in 45. The Spit XIV was shooting down enemy aircraft long before the protype of the P47N first flew. How does that make them contemporaries?
-
Excuse me Sir? I do believe you just shot yourself in the foot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) <points to bloody hole in Nashwans combat boot>
The Spit XIV was shooting down enemy aircraft long before the protype of the P47N first flew. How does that make them contemporaries?
Hmmm... could be wrong, but I would like to see some facts backing up a statement like that.
Seems to me I remember that the Spit XIV wasn't deployed outside of England till the Fall of 1944. And no shooting down V1's Buzzbombs, dont' count as shooting down "aircraft".
So when was the P-47N prototype flown?
Nashwan, you do realize that the P-47N model is simply the P-47M model with extra fuel tanks inside the wings dont' you, for more range in the Pacific? And the P-47M served in Europe alongside the Spit XIV.
So fine, give us a P-47M instead of the N, will that be acceptable?
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-18-2000).]
-
<Puts bandage on foot and limps onward>
The Spit XIV entered squadron service in Jan 44. It wasn't "deployed" outside England until Jun44 (unless some squadrons moved to Wales, Scotland or N. Ireland (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) because the Germans had all the good airfields on the continent, iirc (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
In Jun 44 3 squadrons operated from temporary airstrips in Normandy. Sounds like the Summer, not the Fall. In the period betweeen Jan and Jun I think they would have made many operational sweeps over Europe. The fact that the Luft chose to hide from the RAF most of the time is hardly the Spits fault (ok. perhaps it is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) but they were certainly in use. Luftwaffles seem to think that 1 prototype seeing an enemy plane and running from it is "operational", so I don't see why shooting down 300 unmanned enemy aircraft isn't.
The P47N had an all new wing (of 22sqft more area), strengthened landing gear, a new variant engine and many other changes. it had an empty weight 1000lbs greater than the D. Sounds like more than minor changes to me. Incidentally, they fitted an new wing to the Spit XIV. It was called the Spiteful, would that be acceptable to you?
The P47N prototype flew on 22 July 44, after Spits had started to fly from bases in Normandy, and long after they had entered service. I don't have a date when the first kill by a Spit XIV happend, but I am fairly sure it was before the 22 July 1944.
<Takes bandage off foot, finds no injury and puts boot back on>
-
spit 14's first kill was a Ju88 and i believe it was in March 1944. Going from memory here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
-
Of course the americans got an extra 5 months to get planes into service as such end of war planes for the US would be post war planes for britain and germany.
P.S. i though there were 950 spit 14's
-
The P-47M's were delivered to the 56th FG either in late december '44 or early January '45. (Depending on which source you use).
They shot down their share of LW planes (The few that were left), including a number of jets.
In all areas, apart from range, the P-47M is the better performer.
With the increased fuelload on the P-47N, climb (with fuel fuelload) was down to the same level as the P-47Cs/early D's.
The only P-47 book I got here at work is somewhat vague about when the P-47N went into service, but somewhere between January and March '45, (I can find out more exact when I get back from work), but it appears that the 4-5 P47-N equipped FG's saw less action in the following 7 months than the 56th FG's P-47M's saw in the last four months of the war in Europe.
Daff
------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
-
I said M and N, had the only difference in integral wingtanks.
Not the D and N
A whole month out of a 5+ year war? wow I guess that means you only got grazed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (points to crease in combat boot)
LOL!! And I don't think I could hardly be classified as a Luftwobble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Psuedo - Pony Mafia maybe, Luftwobble not even close. Points to Hristo and the never ending 262 comment <----- Now THATS a Luftwobble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And of course us Americans get 5 more months. "in World War II" means just that, not just "WWII in Europe" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Fair? Nope, but history rarely is.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
The P47M was built in very limited numbers. 130 iirc.
jmccaul, the war ended on the same day for Britain and America. Britain was involved in the war against Japan as well. Spit XIVs were even sent out to the far east, and flew off a carrier to bases in Malaya, but the war ended before they got into action.
-
Sorry verm, I didn't make myself clear. Here is a quote from the this site: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html)
The modifications to the existing YP-47M were considerable. Aside from simply installing the wing inserts and fuel tanks, the flaps were required to be redesigned, and the ailerons had to be modified to fit with the new squared-off wing tips. Due to spacing the wings out from the wing root, the landing gear track increased by more than 3 feet. The overall wing span had increased to just over 42 ft 6 inches. The empty weight of the fighter had gone up by nearly half a ton to 12,950 lbs.
I have similar things in my books but cut and paste is easier than typing. The difference in the wings was between the D/M and the N. The M was basically a D with a better engine and some weight stipped out. They had the same wing.
A month? If the Spit had it's first kill in March, and the P47 flew at the end of July, doesn't that make it around 4 months?
Like I said, Britain had that extra 5 months of war as well. WE were in the war from begining to end (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 05-18-2000).]
-
Sure the Royal Navy was in the PAC, with 4 carriers which didn't do much, and 85% of their aircraft on these carriers were American, go figure.
The 47M was only designed as a V-1 interceptor, nothing more, nothing less, it was a 'sprint' version that was designed to operate at medium altitude, whereupon it was aquire its target then iniate a dive untill it was close to its target, then slow down with the aid of air brakes and then rape with its 8 .50 cals. Naswan was right.. 130 47Ms were built, 1,816 47Ns. I would choose the M version over the N, for severel reasons including that it was much lighter than the N, and faster.
But... the question now is, should we get the bubble canopy version of the XIV or the malcom hood? The first spitfire equipped with a bubble canopy first flew in mid 43 mounted on a Mk XIII airframe, however, the first operational use of the bubble canopy on spitfires was in early 44. The first sqaudron to equip with the XIV was No. 610, which became operational with the new fighter in May of 44. Also, the first aircraft to shoot down an Me262 was a spit F.Mk XIV in October of 44.
-
Nashwan, I hope by this point that you have figured out that I'm having fun with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My only point is that late model P-47's, M or N take your pick, were active in the war in large numbers , and meet the same "inclusion" requirements that we normally speak of, just like the Spit XIV. Yes there were only 130 M's, but thats because they had already started mass production of the N's (over 1,500 built). Both served in combat with distinction.
Its only my opinon (and its an opinon that we probably won't ever get to test) but I figure that a N load with the same number of gallons of gas will handle very similarly to the M. But again thats just my opinon.
Daff, not sure about amount of action of M equipped groups versus N equipped groups but here is a few things I found quickly in AHT about P-47Ns in action.
Apr. '45: The new 318th FG gets new P-47N's, and moves to Ie SHima, three miles off the coast of Okinawa, and only 325 miles from Japan
May 25, '45: The 318th FG destroys 34 enemy aircraft over Kyushu, Japan out of a 165 plane attack.
Jun 10 '45: By the end of the day the 318th FG total goes to 108 victories.
Jun 13, '45: Japanese defensive action is intensive over Kyushu. During the previous week, the P-47N's of the 318th FG are intercepted by 244 aircraft of which the Thunderbolts down 48 for a loss of three of their own.
Aug 8th '45: American Bombers attack Yawata, Japan, the most important industrial city left after the destruction at Hiroshima. On hundred and fifty one (151) P-47Ns of the 301st FW, 413th and 507th Groups fly their only escort mission over Japan. There are over 400 Bombers. 60 Enemy fighters appear, and in a fierce air battle 13 enemy planes are downed for the loss of five P47N's.
Aug 13th '45: P-47N's of the 507th FG fly a a fighter sweep to Korea and meet 50 aircraft. They down 20 of these and destroy two on the ground, losing one P-47N.
These are just a couple of the encounters listed, but I just wanted to point out that the P-47N's didn't just fly around and never see the enemy.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Personally I expect the "Super Uber's" to be Jets, and aircraft that never really saw combat. P-51H's, Bearcats, TigerCats, Ta-152H1's, La9's, Yak-3P's, FG-2 SuperCorsairs, and such as that.
Ta152H1 DID saw REAL Combat. Me262 DID SAW REAL COMBAT. Fw190D12 DID SAW REAL COMBAT (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Arado Ar234 too, and B29, too.
Careful,verm...If you put "uber" on no-fight planes in WWII then you'll have to put those "kitties" in the 0 point hangar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Uber:Plane that outclasses any planes in the current planeset, counting in the planeset the SpitXIV and Fw190D9. Thats it, IMHO.
P47N should be in uber planeset. P47D on normal planeset. No matter it saw combat or not, man. P47N WOULD unbalance seriously the arena. So it is Uber. Same with Spit XXI, P51H, Ta152H, (Regretfully) Me262, He162, Go229, P80, F8F, F7F, Fury...
I agree,tho, on Tempest. It can be in the current planeset without problem...but then what is the tiffie for????
------------------
Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-18-2000).]
-
Yes Verm, I'm just having fun too. I don't actually object to the P47N, it might be a lot later than the Spit but I would back the Spit in a fight any day. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The info I have is that the N actually handled better than the M. It was heavier but it had a larger wing, better aileron design etc.
Nath, the RN had more than 4 carriers in the Pacific, though there were probably only 4 on station at any one time. To say they didn't do much is a bit silly. They didn't take the losses the American carriers did in 45 because the RN fitted there carriers with armoured flight decks, so those Kamikaze (sp?) which got through didn't do much damage.
-
For what its worth, late war British stuff continued to fight against the Japanese until September '45.
Sisu
-
Last note. I would welcome the SPit XIV in this sim as I would any aircraft besides those that never left athe table napkin as some fantasy fighter for the Luftwaffe. See Luft '46 for what I mean.
I only posted to help on the P-47M/N error. Of which more came up.
The P-47 M prototype was ready in 1943. Republic di it as a competitor to eh longer range P-51 and P-38's. NOT the V1. When the call came oput for a faster aircraft to help combat the V1 and faster LW aircraft Republic dusted off thier P-47M and the USAAF was hooked. Then Republic also on thier own developed THAT aircraft into a P-47n with "wet " wings clipped to bring back the roll loss from the fuel added int the wings.
The P-47 M could have been in ful blown service in early 44 had the USAAF not been in love with the P-51 so much. The P-47M came along before the P-51 H did and hence the P47M and more so the N did get to play a part in the war. But it was not developed because of the V1 buzz bomb. The P-47M was ready before that unmanne contraption ever went airborne.
You may all resume the Spit XIV/Uber aircraft debate once again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
-
The B.P.F. or British Pacific Fleet had 4 active fleet carriers under the command of Admiral Spruance, C in C of the 5th Fleet during the middle of march '45. Since the BPF's escorts and battleships were slower than that of their carriers they were restricted to lesser operations, for instance, during the attack on Okinawa the 5th fleet directly supported the landings on the island while the BPF attacked airfields to the south of Okinawa on Skashima which the Japanese used as aircraft staging points.
Indefatigable, Illustrious, Indomitable, Victorious were the 4 HMS on station, April 20th the Illustrious was replaced by the Formidable, due for a refit and its aircrew's required tour of duty long past.
True the British had armored Flight decks but they also couldn't carry as much aircraft as the US carriers, 34 originally untill they were upgraded to 74.
-
Read Pyros most recent post and you will see what is a uber plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Told you I know what it is and I aint telling.
------------------
Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
-
Geez, did this ever get sidetracked...
The criteria for "uberness" is that the plane would adversely affect the balance of the arena.
Sometimes it is obvious, eg: Me 262. Too fast, 4 BIG guns.
With the prop planes it might not be so obvious. Eg: Would a Ta 152H really upset balance? I think it might, but only for 10 minutes at a time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
"The P-47 M could have been in ful blown service in early 44 had the USAAF not been in love with the P-51 so much."
Sorry, despite being the one of the biggest jug-advocates around, the P-51 was an all-round better suited plane for the ETO.
Yes, the late P-47D and M *could* reach Berlin, but it still meant at lot of fiddling with the engine to make it stretch that long.
Daff
------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
-
And don't forget that P-47M's were having engine trouble well into 1945. I find it doubtful that the "full blown service in early 44" would have been possible with an engine that was still not ready for prime-time in early 1945!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
Funked, just be anal; (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The problems were in the electrical system, not the engine it self. (Although you could with a good cause argue that it's the same thing :P)
Daff
------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
-
So they would have had wiring trouble in 1944. No biggy. How long do you imagine it would have taken to have worked that bug out? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Republic had the plane ready for in 43. That's my point.
An I do acknowlege to the gentleman from the 56th on the higher performance of the 51...in comparison to a P-47C or D of the same tim (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
-
The P47M had engine troubles, not electrical.
"The new M models also suffered a fair amount of teething troubles. The C series engines suffered from high altitude ignition leaks and burned pistons."
Westy, Republic had a prototype flying in 43. That's not the same thing as ready. By your definition, other planes which were "ready" by 1943:
Me262
Spit21
De Havilland Vampire
Arado 234
Do335
Gloster Meteor
-
Eerrr ummmm actually I have read reports that the Me262 could have been ready over a year earlier than it was, due to personal meddling by Hitler, and the mismanagement of the Luftwaffe command development sections.
Very scary notion.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
True. But the USAAF never acted upon the prototype in 43 and it remained in prototype or
"YP" status till it raised eyebrows and was needed in 44. Then it was moved right along very quickly and put inot production as the P-47M and P-47N.
Kind of like the ME-262. Galland could have had that bird MUCH sooner than summer of 44 had "the powers that be" acted on it when they should have.
-Westy
-
Both the 262 and the 47M had engine problems when they did enter service. If they had been rushed into production earlier, they would still have had those engine troubles. There might have been more of them ready when those problems were finally ironed out, but that would have been at the cost of less serviceable planes when they were needed. Would the USAAF have been better served if they had had large numbers of 47Ms in 45 at the exspense of numbers of 47Ds in early 44?
-
LLv34... one source lists production of 190D9 as 1805, multiple sources list production near 700.
------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
-
How do I change the thread title to "Uber P-47's revisited" ??? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Eerrr ummmm actually I have read reports that the Me262 could have been ready over a year earlier than it was, due to personal meddling by Hitler, and the mismanagement of the Luftwaffe command development sections.
Very scary notion.
Ummm yes and no. Yes, Hitler messed up the Me262 program making them blitz jabos (at least trying it so). But the plane wasnt ready ,in any of its variants, until summer 44. The engines were very unreliable, less that 8 hours of running each one...and that if you were lucky.
In fact the first rush of me262 in service as fighters was a failure. Kommando Nowotny ,the first squadron with Mw262 suffered badly from the engine problems and lack of adaptation to the new model. Even the CO, Walter Nowotny, was killed when trying to land in his Me262.
So it is true that Hitler said in 1943 that the plane was to be a jabo...but with or without him, Me262 wont have been in service until it was in RL.
------------------
Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-19-2000).]
-
Actually, Nowotny was killed engaging 8th Air force B17s, strangley, the day he was killed Adolf Galland was visiting the newly equipped Me262 base.
P.S. Did you know that the first operational sorties flown by the 190D were to protect Kommado Nowotny while it was equipping with its 262s?
-
Nowotny was killed trying to land his 262 with engine trouble. He was returning to base low and slow when he was bounced by a Mustang. The Mustang claimed to have damaged Nowotny futher, but from reports of the crash it is likely the engine trouble caused Nowotny to stall and crash on final approach.
-
Walter Nowotny declared by radio the attack on his plane by Mustangs. One of his engines catched fire and he couldnt do anything to keep it airborne. The plane crashed and got on fire.
Adolf Galland was there,yes ,and that was because he wanted to have a first hand impression of why didnt the 262 had more success. He saw Nowotny's death only a couple of kilometers from him...and,sure, he had all the tips of why didnt 262 had more success.
I always thougnt the P51s hit the 262 and made it catch fire, but fires on the 262 engines were VERY common (as shutdowns)...so It could be well a failure.In fact production engines had an estimated life of 90minutes (!!!!!), although prototypes had some 8 hours (prototypes were hand-made, production ones had problems with poor alloy quality).Eventually the problems were more or less overcome and the 262 became a killing machine, but not before late 1944.
Anyway it was clear that in medium 1944 Me262's engines were still dangerous experimental things. In fact, one year later, soviet testers founded the Me262 amusing (its wing especially), but in the end they regarded it as a dangerous plane,due the faulty engines.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-20-2000).]
-
RAM, I wasn't only speaking of Hitler's tendency to meddle in a personal nature with weapons developement.
I was speaking of Germany's entire weapons development, procurement, and war time economic system in WWII.
Strangely, while Germany has some of the finest battle field Generals, Strategists (developement of Blitzkrieg tactics), Tacticians, and some of the best trained individual pilots and soliders.
Economically, and developmentally, as a whole they were one of the worst.
From what I have read there was constant bickering, squabbling, and backstabbing among the weapons developement types. Not the scientists, but the Headquarters types.
Additionally, there was a pervasive view that the war would be short, or it was "almost over", so there was little thought given to long term development. A very good example of this is that there was very little effort to maximize the Germany economy for wartime production, until very late in the war. This is why Germany was able to actually increase military production through out 1944, even though the Allies were pounding their infrastructure into rubble. There was that much economic output that was being directed elsewhere.
A good example, the Bf109 was an excellent fighter early in the war, but by 1942/1943 was obviously begining to become an obsolete design. There were several designs the Germans came up with that could have lead to a very successful replacement. However the view was that the war would shortly be over, and the Bf109 would be "good enough". And that lead down the path of 109 development we see the results of today.
Just my viewpoint that the Germans had difficulty in looking ahead in the Second World War, rather than looking at the immediate next couple of months.
Yes, the developed some incredible "secret weapons", but as a whole, their system was lacking.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Some comments (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Strangely, while Germany has some of the finest battle field Generals, Strategists (developement of Blitzkrieg tactics), Tacticians, and some of the best trained individual pilots and soliders.
Agree in all except Strategists. Blitzkrieg was a theory depeloped at operational level, a hole new dimension that brought the germans during WWII, fading between Strategic and Tactical level. Strategically the German Staff was completely lost. They put efforts on useless campaigns (I.E. Balkans), when regarding as secondary important fronts that were never approached seriously (Malta, North Africa...).
That strategical lack of mind was seen too in Luftwaffe. Its mind was that of a tactical support force, so they never developed a serious strategical bomber until too late. Kriegsmarine was low on resources and couldnt play any role but some raider efforts...Even Wehrmatch never thought in the big picture instead of little pieces of it (In fact if they had done that in 1939 the war would've never started).
Economically, and developmentally, as a whole they were one of the worst.
From what I have read there was constant bickering, squabbling, and backstabbing among the weapons developement types. Not the scientists, but the Headquarters types.
Oh,yes...German high command was a sneak pit. I dont know if you know the story of the development of Messerchmitt Bf109 "love story" between Edhard Milch and Willi Messerchmitt...but is a good example
Additionally, there was a pervasive view that the war would be short, or it was "almost over", so there was little thought given to long term development. A very good example of this is that there was very little effort to maximize the Germany economy for wartime production, until very late in the war. This is why Germany was able to actually increase military production through out 1944, even though the Allies were pounding their infrastructure into rubble. There was that much economic output that was being directed elsewhere..
A good example, the Bf109 was an excellent fighter early in the war, but by 1942/1943 was obviously begining to become an obsolete design. There were several designs the Germans came up with that could have lead to a very successful replacement. However the view was that the war would shortly be over, and the Bf109 would be "good enough". And that lead down the path of 109 development we see the results of today.
Agree and disagree. You see clearly that the war effort was directed to a short war. Verm, Germany had no choice, as everyone knew that a long war was one that Germany would lose (as it did), if someone was going to win the short war,it was Germany. Allied side saw the other side, the long effort was the one that would favor them so they choose it. Attrition war was one to be lost by Axis and Germans and Italians knew that...so they focused on short term instead long term.
You say that 109 was an obsolete designt in 1942. I dont agree, but thats other thing...in fact Germany had prototypes of "Bf209" as soon as in 1940. The fact that it was a complete failure wasn't linked with the "short term view" discussed above.
Regarding the 1944 production output...well I cant avoid to say that it was partly because the "total war" declared in 1943 by goebbels...but also because Milch was gone from the Armaments Ministry...and Albert Speer was there, instead. He was an architect...but he was,too,the man who gave Germany one more year of "life". He and his advisors (Guderian between them, made the miracle of Wehrmatch recovery in 1943 possible, giving an unstopable boost to German armor output...they descentralized Germany's economy as possible as it was...etc.
Said that there was still a lot of problems up in weapons development. Fw190D9 could have been flying in 1943, and Ta152 wasnt a truth in middle 1944 because RLM hindered Tank the use of the excellent DB603 engine for it in the grounds of lack of reliability (???!!!!)...the truth is that DB603 was an engine that RLM never asked for...and they put a ban on it because that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...so Tank had to work with Junkers engines...the delay was long and well, you see the results...Tank had been pressing on DB603 for Ta152 since 1942!...and was granted permission to develop the DB-engined Ta152C...in 1945.
Just my viewpoint that the Germans had difficulty in looking ahead in the Second World War, rather than looking at the immediate next couple of months.
Yes, the developed some incredible "secret weapons", but as a whole, their system was lacking
Well as I said before the "short term" mind was the right one...until it was clear that the war was going to be a long attrition war instead a blitz one.
And yes, in aeronautic development they were years away from allied...Me262's wing studies were used both for MiG15 and F86 Sabre...in fact MiG15 seems a reskinned ta183...
Only some thoughts on this matter...Its scary to know how near were Hitler and they gang to win the war...thanks god for his megalomaniacal views.
------------------
Ram, out
Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://members.tripod.com/JG2/)
(http://nottosc.tripod.com/ram190.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-20-2000).]
-
Good points RAM
I wasn't thinking so much of the Bf209, but of some others. A couple that comes to mind immediately are the:
He-100: This fighter was killed purely for politics, and it potentially could have been the finest piston engine fighter of the war.
In the fall of 1939, the D1's (actual war prototypes, 16 built), were doing 416mph at 16,000ft with a DB601 engine. One other prototype with a special race engine in it, did 463mph in 1939.
For Comparison, the Bf109F4 was 30 mph slower, turned worse, and it was equipped with the same engine and armament, and it came an entire year later. Plus the He-100 has similar acceleration and climbing ability to the Bf109.
Another excellent "could have been" was the French Designed (but built and delievered to the Luftwaffe) Block 157.
In early 1943 this fighter was doing 441 mph at 25,250ft, 4 mph faster than the P-51D, and well over a year earlier. It was a rugged built radial and it had good armament of x2 Hispano 20mm and x2 light MG's. It had similar powerloading to the Spit IX. And it also had a significantly larger wing, and superior turning ability than the 109 of that period. Hell.. I would fly this bird in our current late 44-45 arena.
Just a couple that I can think of (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I wouldn't be suprised if there were others.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
The K-4 has a cleaner airframe than the G-10. For example, the tail wheel retracts.
------------------
Rendar
-
"One other prototype with a special race engine in it, did 463mph in 1939."
The He 100 V8 which reached 463.5mph was actually faster than the Me 209(aka: Me 109R) which was given the record at 469.2mph.
How? The Messerschmitt was flown at an airfield with a higher altitude above sea level than the He 100 V8 was, which would have reached 470.4mph if it had flown from the same airfield.
The RLM wanted it to appear that a normal Luftwaffe fighter had broken the record, so they came up with the fictional Me 109R designation and denied Heinkel another chance at breaking the record.
-
Here's an amusing tidbit regarding the Me 262 engines...
The utilisation of turbo jet engines would presumably provide some relief to the aircraft engine industry because, according to the opinion of the engine technical experts, it has a life cycle use five times longer than piston engines before overhaul is required.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 05-20-2000).]
-
juzz,
of course in reality the German industry was so smashed that they couldn't make the high quality metal needed for the 262's engines and they had a life expectancy of about 10 hours.
Sisu
-
i wanna have the 262 with all here engine quirks ..
If you firewall it .. it either:
Surges -> toasting the compressor and then the rest of the engine as pieces of the toasted compressor fly back thrugh the gas path
it just plain and simple overtemps the turbine -> toasted ..
if you pull to idle:
a) at alt -> the engine flames out at will because you didn't watch the minimum idle speeds of the engine to sustain combustion
b) at low alt -> you over-boost the compressor due to high air density and get it to either stall or surge resulting in a flame out and or toasted engine
You have an intermediate throttle setting at lower alt -> you exceed exhaust gas temperature because not enough air is flowing through the engine due to your lower throttle setting and therfore you toast the combustor and turbine
The Engine just shedds turbine blades at will
The engine shedds compressor blades at will-> sending shrappnell in all directions
any change in throttle setting and or G can:
Over-temp, Stall, flame-out and or get the engine to surge...
Man i'm still admiring how those guys actually found the time to fight in those beasts